4E Races

[asphen fox]

Maybe it's just me but the Drow Elves seem weaker than normal elves... Can you guys check them out and make fixes to Drow to make them and Elves Equal if ever they seem weaker?

Elves
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 5´ 4˝–6´ 0˝
Average Weight: 130–170 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Perception
Elven Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with
the longbow and the shortbow.
Fey Origin: Your ancestors were native to the Feywild,
so you are considered a fey creature for the purpose
of effects that relate to creature origin.
Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within
5 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Perception
checks.
Wild Step: You ignore difficult terrain when you shift
(even if you have a power that allows you to shift
multiple squares).
Elven Accuracy: You can use elven accuracy as an
encounter power.

Elven Accuracy Elf Racial Power
With an instant of focus, you take careful aim at your foe and
strike with the legendary accuracy of the elves.
Encounter
Free Action Personal
Effect: Reroll an attack roll. Use the second roll, even if it’s
lower.


Here's Drow:

Drow
Average Height: 5 4˝ – 6 0˝
Average Weight: 130–170 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Darkvision
Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Stealth
Trance: Rather than sleep, drow enter a meditative state
known as trance. You need to spend 4 hours in this state
to gain the same benefits other races gain from taking a 6-
hour extended rest. While in a trance, you are fully aware
of your surroundings and notice approaching enemies and
other events as normal.
Lolthtouched: Once per encounter, you can use either the
cloud of darkness or darkfire power.

Cloud of Darkness Drow Racial Power
A cloud of darkness obscures you, but your vision pierces it.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Effect: This power creates a cloud of darkness that remains
in place until the end of your next turn. The cloud blocks
line of sight for all creatures except you. Any creature
except you entirely within the cloud is blinded.

Darkfire Drow Racial Power
A flickering halo of purple light surrounds the target, making it
easier to hit.
Encounter
Minor Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence +2 vs. Reflex, Wisdom +2 vs. Reflex, or
Charisma +2 vs. Reflex
Increase to +4 bonus at 11th level and +6 bonus at 21st
level.
Hit: Until the end of your next turn, all attacks against the
target have combat advantage, and the target cannot benefit
from invisibility or concealment.
Special: When you create your character, choose Intelligence,
Wisdom, or Charisma as the ability score you use
when making attack rolls with this power. This choice
remains throughout your character’s life and does not
change the power’s other effects.

[Gypsy0001]

You're kidding, right?

Darkvision alone, stacked in with ranged weaponry, can wreck havoc on a party.

And then you mix in faerie fire which gives all those ranged attackers combat advantage against a target for a round.

Drow are good enough already. Give them anything else and they'll just be plain broken.

[Saph]

And this is probably a good point to mention that due to the feat setup, one of the more effective builds for a drow is now a ranger with dual scimitars. :P

- Saph

[asphen fox]

Question though; They're Elves too right? Why is it that they don't get some of the stuff that elf gets like: EWP and Fey Origin?

[Xelen]

I'd say they are quite even.

+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom == +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma
Medium == Medium
7 squares > 6 squares
Low-light < Darkvision
Common, Elven == Common, Elven
+2 Nature, +2 Perception == +2 Intimidate, +2 Stealth

I'd say its a wash so far, 7 squares is damn nice, but darkvision rocks when combined with stealth bonus. Drow are set up to make nice rogues, elves fit better with rangers.

Elves have a a whole load of minor abilities: Proficiency, Fey, Grp Awarness and Wild Step. Some of them are nice, most of them probably will not have much impact. Elven accuracy is awesome however.
Vs
Trance (minor) and Lothtouched which is awesome.

I'd say the elf has a slight edge at this point in overall power, but each race is better suited to certain classes so I still wouldn't say ether needs adjustments. The only problem I can see from a balance perspective is that Elves have racial feats and Drow do not (yet). Once Drow have a set of feats from a splat book or Dragon that augment their abilities I think we would see parity again.

[Mjoellnir]

They don't have fey origin, because it was forgotten. Look what they are in the Monster Manual. They are fey.

EWP = Elven Weapon Profiencies?

[JBento]

And this is probably a good point to mention that due to the feat setup, one of the more effective builds for a drow is now a ranger with dual scimitars. :P

- Saph

Noticed that too, did ya? But I'm going Bugbear meself... hmmm....
+2Str, +2Dex, +2 Int (meh), +2 Stealth, Oversized weapon (whee, large scimitars) and sneak attack 1/encounter.

[Tsotha-lanti]

And this is probably a good point to mention that due to the feat setup, one of the more effective builds for a drow is now a ranger with dual scimitars. :P

- Saph

Looks like they'd make even better rogues, though, what with two racial encounter powers that grant them combat advantage. That's a lot, comparatively.

[ImperiousLeader]

You know, the 4e Drow is the first Drow I wanted to play. They make darn effective Rogues, or even Fey-Pact Warlocks. Those encounter powers will get a lot of use.

[YPU]

I am pretty sure the drow will soon enough get a insider article dedicated to them, just like the warforged. I am pretty sure that one will include the fey origin etz.
Saph, how is a two scimitar drow ranger particularly effective?

[Azerian Kelimon]

I am pretty sure the drow will soon enough get a insider article dedicated to them, just like the warforged. I am pretty sure that one will include the fey origin etz.
Saph, how is a two scimitar drow ranger particularly effective?

Here I chime in.

See, the scimitar has a special trick up it's sleeve. It's the feat Scimitar dance. With it, your damage is upped considerably, and Twin strike, for example, ALWAYS does damage, hit or miss. This makes your output skyrocket, especially when combined with Heavy Blade Opportunity, thus making Drizzt clones an excellent build.


And yeah, Drow are the Alpha and Omega for Cha rogues. They simply blow all others away.

[Goober4473]

I find most of the monster races are underpowered compared to the PC races. They have equivalent ability scores and skills, but usually have one or two racial features/powers, while PC races have three or four. This isn't always the case, but most of them seem to be like this.

[JaxGaret]

I find most of the monster races are underpowered compared to the PC races. They have equivalent ability scores and skills, but usually have one or two racial features/powers, while PC races have three or four. This isn't always the case, but most of them seem to be like this.

I thought so, too, when I first read them.

Now that I have more experience with the system, I can see that most of the playable races in the MM are right there with the PHB races, or a hair weaker, but not at all enough to make a real difference.

[asphen fox]

Well... in 3.5 there weren't really much difference between Drows and Elves since they get almost the same thing (Elven Weapon Proficiency <_<). I don't get why Drows are so different from elves now. -_-

[SCPRedMage]

I am pretty sure the drow will soon enough get a insider article dedicated to them, just like the warforged. I am pretty sure that one will include the fey origin etz.
Saph, how is a two scimitar drow ranger particularly effective?
Actually, if you read their "monster" description earlier in the book, they are listed with the fey origin.

[Azerian Kelimon]

My guess? Araushnee had a hand on it. That and emanations from the earths, a repeating theme on drow.

PS: Araushnee is Lloth, it was her original name, and a Steven Ulysses Perhero to boot, as it is similar to Arachne, who was transformed into a spider.

[purepolarpanzer]

Oh. By the way. You can't post that elf information. Wizards will kill you. No OGL, no posting even core basics. Better remove it, mod or someone.

[Tengu]

Oh. By the way. You can't post that elf information. Wizards will kill you. No OGL, no posting even core basics. Better remove it, mod or someone.

Let's not get obsessed with minor details like this, shall we? Or else we will approach the absurd of people telling other people they cannot show others the table of costs for stats in point buy, because it's not OGL.

[purepolarpanzer]

Let's not get obsessed with minor details like this, shall we? Or else we will approach the absurd of people telling other people they cannot show others the table of costs for stats in point buy, because it's not OGL.

Obsessed? Don't think so. Just trying to help this guy and Giant not get sued by wizards. By the look of the new gaming license, they will too. I don't like it, but it's the law. Absurd or not.

[SCPRedMage]

Obsessed? Don't think so. Just trying to help this guy and Giant not get sued by wizards. By the look of the new gaming license, they will too. I don't like it, but it's the law. Absurd or not.
Realistically, WotC couldn't sue until after they issued a DMCA takedown notice... And even then, only if the notice wasn't complied with.

[Xelen]

OMG, has anyone heard of fair use?

This totally falls under its protection. There is no copyright infringement. There will be no DMCA scare notice. If WotC does start slamming fan sites for fair use then all the geeks will revolt and..

wait..

Everyone who plays D&D is a geek. Alienating 95% of your customers with frivolous DMCA notices and lawsuits would be a big win. Not.

[Kizara]

Well... in 3.5 there weren't really much difference between Drows and Elves since they get almost the same thing (Elven Weapon Proficiency <_<). I don't get why Drows are so different from elves now. -_-

Now, this is something I'm going to disagree with, and my evidence is as simple as opening up my 3.5 MM and looking at the entry:

How they differ from High Elves:

1) +2 Int and Cha, in addition to elves +2 Dex, -2 Con.

2) Darkvision 120 (twice the standard) instead of low-light.

3) SR 11+ character level.

4) Proficient with Hand crossbow, rapier and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf's weapon proficiencies.

5) Different automatic and bonus languages, notably Undercommon as an automatic. (honestly, I always thought the bonus language mechanic was a bit stupid, I just base it on background)

6) SLAs: 1/day: Dancing lights, darkness and faire fire.

7) Light blindness.

(LA +2)

So, plenty of differences. Not saying that some of those aren't in 4e as well, but pointing out that a) they exist and b) they do have different proficiencies.

[Kizara]

OMG, has anyone heard of fair use?

This totally falls under its protection. There is no copyright infringement. There will be no DMCA scare notice. If WotC does start slamming fan sites for fair use then all the geeks will revolt and..

wait..

Everyone who plays D&D is a geek. Alienating 95% of your customers with frivolous DMCA notices and lawsuits would be a big win. Not.

What does DMCA mean anyways? Forgive my ignorance.

[Xelen]

What does DMCA mean anyways? Forgive my ignorance.

Digital Millennium Copyright Act. AKA, how all of your fair use and rights of first sale have been stripped away in the US. It makes it illegal to do things like copy music off a locked DVD from your payed for copy of Rent (the Movie) onto your iPod. Or making a backup copy of Diablo 2 and then using a crack to make it run. Or burning your payed for iTunes tracks onto a CD for personal use. All things that you HAD the right to do, but no longer do.

I can't wait for Canada's version which is in the house right now. It's even worse than the US version. :/

It is basically "intellectual property" gone crazy.

[SCPRedMage]

Digital Millennium Copyright Act. AKA, how all of your fair use and rights of first sale have been stripped away in the US. It makes it illegal to do things like copy music off a locked DVD from your payed for copy of Rent (the Movie) onto your iPod. Or making a backup copy of Diablo 2 and then using a crack to make it run. Or burning your payed for iTunes tracks onto a CD for personal use. All things that you HAD the right to do, but no longer do.

I can't wait for Canada's version which is in the house right now. It's even worse than the US version. :/

It is basically "intellectual property" gone crazy.
There's a LOT more to the DMCA than that, but yeah, as a whole, the damn thing is EVIL. Particularly, it does, as you said, walk ALL over Fair Use.

What I was referring to was the part of the DMCA I actually like, despite how often it gets abused: the Safe Harbor clause.

Essentially, the Safe Harbor clause protects websites and the like from liability in copyright violation issues, provided they properly follow the DMCA takedown notices that they receive. It allows people to protect the crap they own, while protecting site owners from being screwed by users doing less than legal things...

Oh, and Xelen, let's get one thing perfectly clear. Something that falls under Fair Use is, technically, still a copyright violation. Fair Use is a legal defense built into copyright law that allows you to get away with violating copyright under certain circumstances.

That, however, is just splitting hairs. The point is that posting the full stats for two races might very well NOT be considered fair use, so the concern IS founded in reality. The point I was trying to make is that if WotC really has a problem with it, they HAVE to follow the DMCA, so there CAN'T be a lawsuit versus the site owners, so there's no need for the mods to come rushing in to stamp out a non-existent fire.

Gah, run-on sentence from Hades... >.<