[4e] I am apathetic towards it

[marjan]

So if I'm in a room and call myself a trap, I get to be invisible!

First, you will need to take your clothes off. :smalltongue:

[Prophaniti]

I'm pretty sure that's not new. I have to double check, but I believe 3e says that all traps have a spot DC of at least 20, and only folks with Trapfinding can find traps with DCs higher than 20.

So if I dig a hole in the middle of a room, you're not allowed to see it 95% of the time. I'm gonna go look that up now, I know there was >some< quirk of how things were written...

EDIT: Bingo, 3.5 PHB page 50, the Rogue's Trapfinding ability. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20. So if I'm in a room and call myself a trap, I get to be invisible!Traps are, kind of by definition, hidden, concealed or otherwise not in plain sight. A hole in the middle of the floor in not a trap, it's just a hole. Until you put a mock floor (or at least a rug) over it, then it becomes a pit trap. True, I don't necessarily agree with the Trapfinding rules (though my main beef is that Trapfinding allows you to spot magical traps. what nonsense.), but a trap that's actually meant to hurt, hinder, or kill people is not going to be easy to see.

[Gavin Sage]

I more meant that I prefer not to use a grid at all, and let all the action take place in my head. Some of my group agrees, some don't, but usually we only bust out the grid for really big or complicated battles, when we're likely to forget who's near who. Often, if there's a question, the DM just explains as best he can, or sometimes draws a diagram of where everyone is right then. Then we get on with the action without the tedium of counting out movement squares and such.

I couldn't agree more honestly. Breaking out grids disrupts the roleplaying for me.

[Starbuck_II]

I couldn't agree more honestly. Breaking out grids disrupts the roleplaying for me.

Could you explain why?
I don't get this view. How does seeing not let you believe?

[Winterwind]

Could you explain why?
I don't get this view. How does seeing not let you believe?Sharing this view as well, I can say that for me, a board would lead to an uncalled for switch from a scene in my imagination, fueled by a gamemaster's vivid description and dedicated to living through action-laden scenes that overshadow all of Hollywood's cinema, to, well, a board game dedicated to tactical analysis. In the heat of battle, one doesn't have a perfect, clean overview from above, and the gamemaster's descriptions provide far better immersion than staring at a board with some figures who do not look anything like the images one has shaped in one's mind for the PCs and NPCs.
Of course, I can speak only for myself, not Prophaniti or Gavin Sage.

[Jayabalard]

Could you explain why?
I don't get this view. How does seeing not let you believe?Winterwind sums it up pretty well.

"Seeing, contrary to popular wisdom, isn't believing. It's where belief stops, because it isn't needed any more." -- Pratchet

If I'm playing the role of a character in the heat of battle, I don't have a nice clean accurate layout to help me fight. Using a map forces me into a situation where I have try and ignore a bunch of out of character knowledge.

A good game master with detailed descriptions plus a good imagination gives me much better feeling of immersion than I would get from a tactical map. Sure, that map would help be see better, but I'm not interested in seeing; I want to believe.

[Ampersand]

Good to hear from someone who sees most of the same things I do when I look at the new books. I prefer to play without models as well. I often find that, perhaps counter-intuitively, using models on a grid actually impedes my ability to imagine the fight and immerse myself in it.

Out of curiosity, have you tried running a 4e combat without a board or minis? I haven't yet (my group wanted to wrap up a plot thread in our supers game before we tried 4e), but I imagine it could be done. I've played numerous 3.X games where a board was never used, and I remember all the complaints about how D&D "requires minis now" back when that first came out.

Now, granted, a 4e game without minis might be harder to do, since mobility and shifting is a much bigger part of the game now (in my experience 3.X largely encouraged the "I plant my feet and swing until one of us dies" model), but I wouldn't say it's outright impossible.

[Hawriel]

ok yes Im am totaly ambivilent to 4th ed.

These are my reasons.

I dont like the feel of the game. Its not what Im looking for. The artwork, the setting, the writing. The artwork is good, its just not what I want representing the D&D I play. It is the style of artwork for warhammer and warcraft. I do like thoughs worlds for what they are. They are not D&D so their choice of artwork does not work for me. I however could ignore it in 3rd ed because I could dissasosiate the mechanics from from the artistic pressintation. Ive played D&D for 15 years now. It will always be a game that has its creative insperation in real myth, folklore, literature, and history. In short, armor and weapons should look like they can actualy be used. I just dont feel this with 4th ed. Every thing I dont like about the style of 4th ed was in 3rd, its just that the whole game is centered around that style. In third ed it was all in the writing and damn silly justifacations for making synomins totaly different from each other. I could ignore it and just look at the hard rules. 4th as I see it, is P&P rules for vidio games like street fighter or diablo.

The other more practical reason. I have spent way to much mony on way to many books to just chuck them all aside for 4th edition. My friends and I have more stuff that we could ever use through a life time of gaming. We also dont want to go through the head ake of converting it.

minies and immersion:

My friends and I have played whole combats with out ever putting down a mini. just used a crudly drawn map of the area or the dungeon map for reference. Every onece and wile we put down a little X in pencile for locations. In some games we busted out minies. usualy when it was a large fight. We just could not keep track of whare every one was. Most of the time these mini fights where indoors. Out door fights only had a map as mentioned befor. I do agree with Winderwind. Some of the best fights my group had was at most represented by hand drawn map used for a visual guide for locations. In shadowrun we have never used more than a map given in the adventure books. Thats as far as Ive ever wanted to go. Any thing more than that and my RP immersion starts to fade.

Warhammer Quest was a mini game with a little RP dungeon hack style thrown in. Damn I loved that game. Same with necromunda. I guess thats another reason I dont like 4th ed. If I wanted to play that style of game. I would go and find warhammer quest.

[Worira]

ok yes Im am totaly ambivilent to 4th ed.

These are my reasons.

I dont like the feel of the game. Its not what Im looking for. The artwork, the setting, the writing. The artwork is good, its just not what I want representing the D&D I play. It is the style of artwork for warhammer and warcraft. I do like thoughs worlds for what they are. They are not D&D so their choice of artwork does not work for me. I however could ignore it in 3rd ed because I could dissasosiate the mechanics from from the artistic pressintation.

As opposed to 4E, where you can't?


Ive played D&D for 15 years now. It will always be a game that has its creative insperation in real myth, folklore, literature, and history. In short, armor and weapons should look like they can actualy be used. I just dont feel this with 4th ed.

Dire Flail.

Also, what do you like about 4E? You must like something about it, seeing as you said you were ambivalent about it.

Also also, get a spell checker.

[Jerthanis]

I imagine 4th edition combat is entirely possible without a map. Spoilered for length, I got way too into this:


Sam (DM): "The pirates edge closer to your crippled ship, black sails billowing in the wind. As they draw nearer, a strange smell overpowers the salty brine of the ocean, they're not human pirates, but Troglodytes. Pulling alongside your ship, they throw countless grappling hooks, binding your two ships together."
Greg (Playing Jeris, Human Fighter): "Can we cut the ropes and free our ship?"
Janet (Playing Kyra, Dwarven Cleric): "It won't do any good without a mast."
Chris (Playing Ott, Eladrin Wizard): "At this point we may as well just take their ship, ours isn't going anywhere."
Sam: The Troglodytes begin boarding, roll initiative, also, where are you all standing on the ship?
Chris: Can I be in the Crow's Nest? (rolls a 16 initiative)
Sam: You weren't on Crow's nest duty, but I'll let you roll a retroactive athletics check to climb the rigging upon spotting the pirate ship if you want.
Janet: Argh! A 4, I'm going last guys! Oh, I'm standing right at the front to repel the boarders.
Greg: I'm with Krya, I got a 14.
Sam: (rolls enemy initiative) Alright, Chris is the only one who beat them on initiative, is there anything you want to do before they board you?
Chris: Can I use Icy Rays to immobilize two of them as they jump aboard, causing them to fall into the water?
Sam: Sure, it's a little unorthodox, but I'll allow it, you'll act on their initiative score from now on. They board, roll your attack Chris.
Chris: 17 versus reflex and 14 versus reflex, does that hit?
Sam: Yes, the first one does, he plummets into the water between ships, but the other evades your attack and makes it. In total 8 Trog pirates board your ship in the first round, Kyra and Jeris suffer two attacks each (rolls these attacks)
Greg: Alright, can I push one off the railing and into the water with Tide of Iron?
Sam: You did say you were right at the edge with Kyra, I'll say you can, but remember, he gets a save.
Greg: (rolls well, DM fails the save, Pirate is pushed in)
Sam: Good job, the few sailors fit to fight on your boat take their attacks, these guys count as minions in this battle for simplicity, so I'll just roll their attacks really quick (rolls a handful of dice) The sailors seem clearly outmatched, they don't manage to hurt the Troglodytes much, it's your turn Janet.
Janet: If I cast Shield of Faith, would it affect all the Sailors as well?
Sam: Of course, they're pretty close to you, but they won't affect the battle too much.
Janet: Still, Kyra wants to protect them, and it'll help Jeris as well... I don't think the Crow's nest is within range though.
Sam: No, it isn't.
Chris: Hey, my fault, and besides, up here I probably won't need it. Do your thing.
Janet: (does her thing)
Sam: Alright, now the Troglodytes act on the same initiative count as Chris, so they make their attacks, and are joined by their captain, shouting orders from his place of safety on his own ship. He doesn't seem to have noticed that you guys are the real threat yet though, so he attacks a sailor. (rolls) He missed because of Shield of Faith! Ha, and I thought that wouldn't matter!
Chris: Okay, I'm going to assume this Captain is a big deal, I'm going to take a leap as far as I can go, use my Eladrin teleport power to teleport further if I need to, then use Featherfall as a free action... then I'm going to use an action point to use Thunderwave on the captain, can I do that?
Sam: Uh... that's insane. It'll work if you roll well enough on your Athletics check to jump, but the Captain won't be near enough the edge to push him off if that's what you want to do.
Chris: Hmm, in that case I might not... I'll save that trick for later and just Shoot him with a Ray of Enfeeblement (rolls, misses) Drat! See, I told you Kyra should have taken Bless!
Janet: Not this again!
Sam: (trying to head off an argument) Greg, it's your turn.
Greg: How many of these guys can I hit if I use Sweeping Blow?
Sam: You suffered two attacks last round, but conditions are pretty cramped here, so you could shift and hit 4 potentially.
Greg: I'll do that. (Rolls, hits some, misses others) Oh, and I mark all of these guys, if I can.
Sam: Right, but you're fighting really close to Kyra, some won't have to move away to hit her if they don't want to.
Greg: Eh, that's okay, if they do that I'll still get the attack at least.
Janet: If they're that close to me, doesn't that mean we're flanking one of them?
Sam: You'd have to shift, actually, but yeah. I guess I should have mentioned that sooner.
Janet: It's okay, I used Shield of Faith last time anyway. I'll shift to flank now and use Split the Sky on the one we have to try and push HIM in the drink as well. (rolls)

Okay, I got too into that, but yeah, that seems like a fully involved tactical combat with a lot of movement and area powers going on arbitrated by the DM. Now, obviously I'm the mind behind all these people, so naturally I can see the battle in my head, so actual tabletop gameplay will vary considerably.


This example aside, the times where I've played 4th edition combat on a grid, it wasn't strictly necessary to a certain extent. In one battle our Warlord ran into a room first, and some enemies set up a flank against him and dazed him with a power. I ran in and used Tide of Iron to push one of them "away" from him, and interpose myself between the flanker and my ally. The expression of the battlefield gridmap mirrored the wording of my intent, I just didn't have to ask the DM "Am I close enough to move into position to push one of the flankers away?" The following round I used Covering Attack to allow the Warlord to shift into a flank against one of them. Once again, the gridmap expressed only the intent of the description of what I was doing.

I've never tried 4th edition combat without a gridmap, but I'm honestly inclined to believe it'd work about as well as 3.5 ever did. I'd actually assume 4th works better off the grid than 3.5 if you regularly involved reach weapons, AoO builds, battlefields that weren't empty football fields and creatures of varying sizes in your 3.5 games. (I'm talking all together here... like, fighting a Kobold, an Ogre and an Iron Golem in a series of hallways or something)

[Oracle_Hunter]

I imagine 4th edition combat is entirely possible without a map. Spoilered for length, I got way too into this:


Sam (DM): "The pirates edge closer to your crippled ship, black sails billowing in the wind. As they draw nearer, a strange smell overpowers the salty brine of the ocean, they're not human pirates, but Troglodytes. Pulling alongside your ship, they throw countless grappling hooks, binding your two ships together."
Greg (Playing Jeris, Human Fighter): "Can we cut the ropes and free our ship?"
Janet (Playing Kyra, Dwarven Cleric): "It won't do any good without a mast."
Chris (Playing Ott, Eladrin Wizard): "At this point we may as well just take their ship, ours isn't going anywhere."
Sam: The Troglodytes begin boarding, roll initiative, also, where are you all standing on the ship?
Chris: Can I be in the Crow's Nest? (rolls a 16 initiative)
Sam: You weren't on Crow's nest duty, but I'll let you roll a retroactive athletics check to climb the rigging upon spotting the pirate ship if you want.
Janet: Argh! A 4, I'm going last guys! Oh, I'm standing right at the front to repel the boarders.
Greg: I'm with Krya, I got a 14.
Sam: (rolls enemy initiative) Alright, Chris is the only one who beat them on initiative, is there anything you want to do before they board you?
Chris: Can I use Icy Rays to immobilize two of them as they jump aboard, causing them to fall into the water?
Sam: Sure, it's a little unorthodox, but I'll allow it, you'll act on their initiative score from now on. They board, roll your attack Chris.
Chris: 17 versus reflex and 14 versus reflex, does that hit?
Sam: Yes, the first one does, he plummets into the water between ships, but the other evades your attack and makes it. In total 8 Trog pirates board your ship in the first round, Kyra and Jeris suffer two attacks each (rolls these attacks)
Greg: Alright, can I push one off the railing and into the water with Tide of Iron?
Sam: You did say you were right at the edge with Kyra, I'll say you can, but remember, he gets a save.
Greg: (rolls well, DM fails the save, Pirate is pushed in)
Sam: Good job, the few sailors fit to fight on your boat take their attacks, these guys count as minions in this battle for simplicity, so I'll just roll their attacks really quick (rolls a handful of dice) The sailors seem clearly outmatched, they don't manage to hurt the Troglodytes much, it's your turn Janet.
Janet: If I cast Shield of Faith, would it affect all the Sailors as well?
Sam: Of course, they're pretty close to you, but they won't affect the battle too much.
Janet: Still, Kyra wants to protect them, and it'll help Jeris as well... I don't think the Crow's nest is within range though.
Sam: No, it isn't.
Chris: Hey, my fault, and besides, up here I probably won't need it. Do your thing.
Janet: (does her thing)
Sam: Alright, now the Troglodytes act on the same initiative count as Chris, so they make their attacks, and are joined by their captain, shouting orders from his place of safety on his own ship. He doesn't seem to have noticed that you guys are the real threat yet though, so he attacks a sailor. (rolls) He missed because of Shield of Faith! Ha, and I thought that wouldn't matter!
Chris: Okay, I'm going to assume this Captain is a big deal, I'm going to take a leap as far as I can go, use my Eladrin teleport power to teleport further if I need to, then use Featherfall as a free action... then I'm going to use an action point to use Thunderwave on the captain, can I do that?
Sam: Uh... that's insane. It'll work if you roll well enough on your Athletics check to jump, but the Captain won't be near enough the edge to push him off if that's what you want to do.
Chris: Hmm, in that case I might not... I'll save that trick for later and just Shoot him with a Ray of Enfeeblement (rolls, misses) Drat! See, I told you Kyra should have taken Bless!
Janet: Not this again!
Sam: (trying to head off an argument) Greg, it's your turn.
Greg: How many of these guys can I hit if I use Sweeping Blow?
Sam: You suffered two attacks last round, but conditions are pretty cramped here, so you could shift and hit 4 potentially.
Greg: I'll do that. (Rolls, hits some, misses others) Oh, and I mark all of these guys, if I can.
Sam: Right, but you're fighting really close to Kyra, some won't have to move away to hit her if they don't want to.
Greg: Eh, that's okay, if they do that I'll still get the attack at least.
Janet: If they're that close to me, doesn't that mean we're flanking one of them?
Sam: You'd have to shift, actually, but yeah. I guess I should have mentioned that sooner.
Janet: It's okay, I used Shield of Faith last time anyway. I'll shift to flank now and use Split the Sky on the one we have to try and push HIM in the drink as well. (rolls)

Okay, I got too into that, but yeah, that seems like a fully involved tactical combat with a lot of movement and area powers going on arbitrated by the DM. Now, obviously I'm the mind behind all these people, so naturally I can see the battle in my head, so actual tabletop gameplay will vary considerably.


This example aside, the times where I've played 4th edition combat on a grid, it wasn't strictly necessary to a certain extent. In one battle our Warlord ran into a room first, and some enemies set up a flank against him and dazed him with a power. I ran in and used Tide of Iron to push one of them "away" from him, and interpose myself between the flanker and my ally. The expression of the battlefield gridmap mirrored the wording of my intent, I just didn't have to ask the DM "Am I close enough to move into position to push one of the flankers away?" The following round I used Covering Attack to allow the Warlord to shift into a flank against one of them. Once again, the gridmap expressed only the intent of the description of what I was doing.

I've never tried 4th edition combat without a gridmap, but I'm honestly inclined to believe it'd work about as well as 3.5 ever did. I'd actually assume 4th works better off the grid than 3.5 if you regularly involved reach weapons, AoO builds, battlefields that weren't empty football fields and creatures of varying sizes in your 3.5 games. (I'm talking all together here... like, fighting a Kobold, an Ogre and an Iron Golem in a series of hallways or something)

:smallbiggrin:

Glad to see I'm not the only one. I think you're right about not using grids in 4e, but if you don't use grids then you're missing out on a great bookkeeping mechanism. 4e is clearly designed with grids in mind, as was 3e with all its reach and AoO rules, but if you don't want to get too finicky about move distances and ranges, you can probably make due.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm trying to describe combat to my players, they sometimes don't see the combat the same way that I do. They ask a lot about where they are, what's between them, and often forget about minor details. It's kind of like playing chess without a board - you can do it, but it can get really messy.

[Gavin Sage]

It's kind of like playing chess without a board - you can do it, but it can get really messy.

I'm picking on this because its what I consider emblematic of the difference.

Namely that I don't want to play chess to begin with!

I can see how you might play chess without the board, but it would be very very messy because its still a tactical game of manuver and counter-manuver. Its not that I'm totally opposed to board games like that, but I don't consider a pen and paper RPG to be one.

It not that I think it impossible to play without grids in 4e or even that 3.5 is perfect in this respect, but 4e is definitely further in this direction which leaves me a reason not to bother converting.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm picking on this because its what I consider emblematic of the difference.

Namely that I don't want to play chess to begin with!

I can see how you might play chess without the board, but it would be very very messy because its still a tactical game of manuver and counter-manuver. Its not that I'm totally opposed to board games like that, but I don't consider a pen and paper RPG to be one.

It not that I think it impossible to play without grids in 4e or even that 3.5 is perfect in this respect, but 4e is definitely further in this direction which leaves me a reason not to bother converting.

You should play 2e or some other system then.

The worst part of 3e in this sense was the introduction of Attacks of Opportunity. Previously, you just needed to know who you were close enough to hit and who was close enough to hit you - it didn't really matter how you could move, or how close you were to baddies when you did so. Attacks of Opportunity added a dimension into D&D where that sort of accuracy became essential to using the rules correctly. When I played 3e without a grid, I essentially ignored movement-based AoO entirely, since it was very hard for me to figure that stuff out in my head to a fine enough degree. Considering how important those AoOs can be sometimes, this resulted in me essentially bastardizing the rules, which I was fine with at the time.

But, if you want to play 3e or 4e (that is to say, to use the rules they give you) you really need a grid. However, if you don't, give 2e a try - it doesn't even try to use a grid, nor does it have any part of its rules which are enhanced by using one.

Or try 1e, since I know we have at least one poster who swears by it:smalltongue:

[horseboy]

I was apathetic about 4th before it came out. I'm indifferent now. I know I said it sounded like a weird cross between Earthdawn and Mordheim, but after reading it, I'm going to go with Arcanum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum_%28role-playing_game%29) and Legions of Steel. I can't tell if I want to call it "Retro" or "Old school". Mechanically it reminds me a lot of the mid to late 80's style RPG where mechanics were solely there for conflict resolution and everything else was pure handwavium. Except, of course, for the whole not having to roll % for skills, d6 for surprise, d10 for init, and d20 for attack. Then when combat starts, well, it's all LoS.

No, I have no interest in running it. I'd still rather play Earthdawn or Rolemaster, as I prefer skill based systems. But if somebody wanted to run it, I wouldn't loudly declare how I'd rather be repeatedly kicked in the genitals by a percheron; like I would if they were trying to get me to play 3.X.