Who thinks that the Oracle is a magnificent bastard?

[paladinofshojo]

He knew Belkar was going to kill him so he founded a town so Belkar will initially destroy himself in the process and to add insult to injury he even named the town "Lick my orange balls halfling". My giuess is that the Oracle is probably luaghing at Belkar in the afterlife.Aside from that, his whole occupation involves sitting around and awnsering questions for exorbent amounts of money so, who else thinks that the Oracle is a magnificent bastard?

[Kurald Galain]

"The Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) is intelligent, charismatic, capable, supremely competent - almost implausibly so - and always in control. "

The oracle scores zero out of five on that list. So, um, no. He might qualify as a regular bastard, though.

[Sir_Elderberry]

"The Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) is intelligent, charismatic, capable, supremely competent - almost implausibly so - and always in control. "

The oracle scores zero out of five on that list. So, um, no. He might qualify as a regular bastard, though.

I'd call him intelligent, capable, supremely competent, and always in control. Charismatic, maybe, if he didn't spend so much time insulting people. I would still not classify him as a magnificent bastard, however. He just got a Crowning Moment of Awesome, but he didn't have the crown before.

[Remirach]

The Oracle isn't a villain, or even an antagonist. He's just selfish. The trope is about "villains who transcend ordinary villainy," which is inapplicable in his case.

I also dispute "supremely competent" and "always in control." The only thing he's shown to be good at is his divine visions, which he didn't even have to gain any levels to earn. And clearly, he wasn't at all in control when he was sued, dangled out a window, or murdered in cold blood. That he got some measure of revenge against Belkar doesn't change the fact that he's DEAD.

[David Argall]

That he got some measure of revenge against Belkar doesn't change the fact that he's DEAD.

Not a disqualification [at least not an automatic one]. If you can imagine him sneering at you while you stand there helpless to do anything about it, he is a potential magnificent bastard under those circumstances.
But our kobold doesn't have many of those moments, so he doesn't really qualify.
He sure did have one tho...

[Remirach]

Not a disqualification [at least not an automatic one]. If you can imagine him sneering at you while you stand there helpless to do anything about it, he is a potential magnificent bastard under those circumstances.
Eh, any Smug Snake can sneer.


But our kobold doesn't have many of those moments, so he doesn't really qualify.
He sure did have one tho...
Could be considered a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

[Kato]

Nah... no MB... there are up to three other's already in the comic... but the last two comics were definitely crowning moment of awesomeness, imo ^^

[Sir_Elderberry]

Nah... no MB... there are up to three other's already in the comic... but the last two comics were definitely crowning moment of awesomeness, imo ^^

Who're you counting as MBs? Xykon, Recloak...?

[Red XIV]

That he got some measure of revenge against Belkar doesn't change the fact that he's DEAD.
As has been mentioned many times before, the Oracle lives in a world where death isn't anywhere near as permanent as in our world. All it takes is 5000 GP worth of diamonds and a willing cleric of sufficient level, and you're back in business. Someone who apparently knows exactly when he's going to die (or close to it) could easily make arrangements in advance for a cleric to come and revive him.

[Chadwick]

That he got some measure of revenge against Belkar doesn't change the fact that he's DEAD.

my thoughts in spoiler...

How dead is dead in DnD? He put the village together why not also get a raise dead coming his way too.

[Remirach]

True, death is cheap in D&D. But my intent was to dispute that the Oracle is always in control of the situation, as per the Magnificent Bastard description. He didn't want to die, else he would not have tried to persuade Belkar that his prophecy had been fulfilled already. He got his revenge against the halfling and it's possible he could be raised -- but his counterstrike against Belkar didn't change his own situation.

(And personally I am skeptical of his being raised. I really have no idea how this will play out, but while the "revolving door afterlife" has been lampshaded, thus far within the narrative bringing people back has been no easy task.)

[Kurald Galain]

As has been mentioned many times before, the Oracle lives in a world where death isn't anywhere near as permanent as in our world.

Yeah, that's why it takes the main protagonists of the story 125 strips so far to resurrect their leader, and counting.

In control, this ain't. Neither is this capable or competent, and if he really were that intelligent he'd have found a better loophole.

Let's face it, Magnificent Bastardhood is rare and reserved for true villains and antagonists, not for arbitrary (and unnamed, even) side character number 67.

[Red XIV]

Yeah, that's why it takes the main protagonists of the story 125 strips so far to resurrect their leader, and counting.
The ones who actually had his body on hand spent months hiding deep in enemy territory (where the only high-level cleric known to be around is somebody they definitively don't want to encounter) rather than actively seeking somebody who could do the job. They were assuming the person who would do the revival would find them, and only now are actually looking for a cleric.

The Oracle presumably would have another advantage that Haley and company lack: being filthy rich.

[factotum]

(And personally I am skeptical of his being raised. I really have no idea how this will play out, but while the "revolving door afterlife" has been lampshaded, thus far within the narrative bringing people back has been no easy task.)

I don't think that's true even in the online strip--that chap who was going through the revolving door clearly DID expect to be resurrected very rapidly, so presumably he'd been through it before. The only instances of "bad resurrections" we've seen are Roy (which happened for entirely mundane reasons, as Red XIV pointed out) and Shojo, who didn't want to come back.

If you include the books, things get even easier:


In On the Origin of PCs, it is revealed that Roy's father died no fewer than six times before old age finally took him, being resurrected each time.

[Emanick]

I don't think that's true even in the online strip--that chap who was going through the revolving door clearly DID expect to be resurrected very rapidly, so presumably he'd been through it before. The only instances of "bad resurrections" we've seen are Roy (which happened for entirely mundane reasons, as Red XIV pointed out) and Shojo, who didn't want to come back.

If you include the books, things get even easier:


In On the Origin of PCs, it is revealed that Roy's father died no fewer than six times before old age finally took him, being resurrected each time.


Plus Leeron the Unlucky, who died and was resurrected three times in 1041 alone. :smallbiggrin:
(Presumably, after he died the fourth time they got sick and tired of the situation and let the poor fellow enjoy his rest.)

[Remirach]

I don't think that's true even in the online strip--that chap who was going through the revolving door clearly DID expect to be resurrected very rapidly, so presumably he'd been through it before. The only instances of "bad resurrections" we've seen are Roy (which happened for entirely mundane reasons, as Red XIV pointed out) and Shojo, who didn't want to come back.

If you include the books, things get even easier:


In On the Origin of PCs, it is revealed that Roy's father died no fewer than six times before old age finally took him, being resurrected each time.

Not one character has ever been raised "on-screen," either in the online strips or the prequels. And while we get reference to Eugene being raised multiple times, we're also confronted with many more cases of desired resurrections that never go through. Consider that Eugene was raised during his adventuring career, which he got into solely because Xykon not only murdered Fryon but made it impossible for Eugene to bring him back to life. There's also Right-Eye's wife and his two sons -- a matter that was recently discussed in the SoD thread. And of course poor Lirian, who was soul bound for years as Dorukan tried to figure out what was wrong, only to wind up in the same boat.
Death is said to be cheap, but it's not as easy as it first appears to be.

[Jayngfet]

Odds are being stabbed by some halfling isn't the same as killed by the epic lich sorcerer and his army, especially considering you have a town of people who would leave everything for you, odds are if I saw them coming I'd raise an extra monster or six for them(since one was a challenge), barricade the doors, and stick any combatants inside the building so that on the off chance Belkar gets through, he'll be weakened enough that the MoJ kills him, keep the high level cleric away for a week and hand him a small piece of my fortune ahead of time(the diamonds are in my bag of holding third pocket to the left) and laugh as I bring about my own prophecy.

And yes, he is a magnificent bastard.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

well, though others may disagree, i'd say the town stunt qualifies him to be magnificent. and via that town, he's certainly a bastard. but i wouldn't say he's a "magnificent bastard", as per the trope.

[Kato]

Who're you counting as MBs? Xykon, Recloak...?

Hu? B,R&X of course, hehe. Nah, of course they all don't fit the trope, but stil better than a little, ten strip, figure, which draws all his power from knowing the future and still not being able to save his ass. I don't blame him, but still... all three have more of an MB than the oracle, imo. At least they are more bastard's through the comic, while he is hardly one for a strip. Though, I did like him, his sharp tongue was a good enough match for the OOTS, but otherwise he had no MB features, I think.

[Orzel]

He has the ability to see the future. It's cheating. Anyone with half a brain and precognition can do what he did. It's no magnificent if you don't work a bit for it. It's like being a great sharpshooter when using magic brain-seeking bullets.

[Kish]

Yeah, that's why it takes the main protagonists of the story 125 strips so far to resurrect their leader, and counting.
I would actually contend that being the main protagonists is a massive handicap there, not an advantage. Or to put it another way...

Roy being dead is a plot point, like Roy's sword being broken or Haley's aphasia. Does the amount of time it took for Roy to get his sword reforged indicate that it's really, really hard for anyone to get swords reforged in the OotS universe? I don't think so, somehow.

[MReav]

He probably falls a bit more under the concept of My Death Is Just the Beginning.

[Kurald Galain]

The Oracle presumably would have another advantage that Haley and company lack: being filthy rich.
Not according to WBL, he's not.


Hu? B,R&X of course, hehe. Nah, of course they all don't fit the trope, but stil better than a little, ten strip, figure, which draws all his power from knowing the future and still not being able to save his ass.
Yes. However, I don't believe any of these qualify as Magnificent Bastards either. Belkar and Xykon simply lack the intelligence (Belkar also lacks the charisma) and Redcloak has displayed significant failure of being in control at any time. None of the three appears to have the skills to pull of a Xanatos Gambit, which is pretty much a prerequisite. Indeed, the only villain capable of Xanatossing would be Nale, except that he's too incompetent.

$.2

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think the oracle actually did a character-to-characterTake That (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeThat) moment.

[David Argall]

I don't believe any of these qualify as Magnificent Bastards either. Belkar and Xykon simply lack the intelligence (Belkar also lacks the charisma) and Redcloak has displayed significant failure of being in control at any time. None of the three appears to have the skills to pull of a Xanatos Gambit, which is pretty much a prerequisite.

SoD Xykon uses Right-eye to test and enforce Redcloak's loyalty to him. Also, while an Xanatos Gambit can be a sign of a MB, it is not a requirement. The MB needs to be in control, not have a devious way of being so. So Xykon may well qualify. Belkar simply lacks any sort of plan. Redcloak wants to be in control. Our MB is in control.


Indeed, the only villain capable of Xanatossing would be Nale, except that he's too incompetent.

Definitely Smug Snake/MB wantabe

[Red XIV]

Not according to WBL, he's not.
Strip 330 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html):

:durkon: Ye know, ye could just use yer powers o' precognition to make yerself a fortune.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gifI'm pretty sure that's exactly what I am doing.

The Oracle wouldn't have been giving out answers to complete strangers that he doesn't even like if he weren't getting rich by doing so. Also, building and maintaining the tower wouldn't be cheap, and setting up that village would take some resources too.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think the Oracle is more of a Master of Preptime.

Preptime = Preparation Time. Given enough time, he can engineer a solution to any problem. Batman is one of the most well known users of Preptime. Since the Oracle can see the (presumably) immutable future from any point, he can have as much preptime as he needs to set up his posthumous revenge.

Another phrase pretty much sums up 568: JUST AS PLANNED

[Roderick_BR]

Not according to WBL, he's not.
WBL takes in account only adventurers. Not all rich people in D&D are high level. The owner of a company, or even a king could just be 1st level experts or aristocrats.

To the OP: I think he would qualify as a magnificent bastard only if he can get away unscratched (sorta like a Karma Houdini), while laughing at everyone's face. Doing it WHILE dying doesn't do much for a MB status.

[Kurald Galain]

SoD Xykon uses Right-eye to test and enforce Redcloak's loyalty to him.

While that was certainly nasty, let's not forget that (from the same SOD), Xykon's standard strategy is to "blast things until it breaks". That's not very magnificent.

Also, being defeated by a fighter without a sword? Being smashed to the ground by an ethereal paladin? Being deceived by his second hand man about the next gate? Not very much "in control", now is it?

[Mando Knight]

I think the Oracle is more of a Master of Preptime.

Preptime = Preparation Time. Given enough time, he can engineer a solution to any problem. Batman is one of the most well known users of Preptime. Since the Oracle can see the (presumably) immutable future from any point, he can have as much preptime as he needs to set up his posthumous revenge.

Another phrase pretty much sums up 568: JUST AS PLANNED

Ah... so he's really a The Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster), then. TV Tropes to the rescue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife)!

[Helanna]

Another phrase pretty much sums up 568: JUST AS PLANNED

That's not really the feeling I got. I felt the oracle was just saying "Betcha didn't see THAT coming, did you?!" Which in my mind is different. If he was a real MB he wouldn't have died at all - he'd have safeguards set up and wouldn't have HAD the vision foreseeing his death. Because it wouldn't have happened.

Besides, if he was intelligent or charasmatic enough he would've been able to bluff better to make Belkar happy so he wouldn't stab him.


What I want to know is, am I the only one worried by the possibility of a paradox? Belkar stabbed the oracle because the oracle predicted he *would* kill someone from his 'list', and he *didn't*. So that actually fulfilled the prophecy. But if the oracle had just said no to begin with, Belkar *wouldn't* have gotten frustrated and stabbed him.

Should I just conclude that Belkar eventually would have killed him anyway? Yeah, I think I'll go with that.

[Caractacus]

That's not really the feeling I got. I felt the oracle was just saying "Betcha didn't see THAT coming, did you?!" Which in my mind is different. If he was a real MB he wouldn't have died at all - he'd have safeguards set up and wouldn't have HAD the vision foreseeing his death. Because it wouldn't have happened.

Besides, if he was intelligent or charasmatic enough he would've been able to bluff better to make Belkar happy so he wouldn't stab him.


What I want to know is, am I the only one worried by the possibility of a paradox? Belkar stabbed the oracle because the oracle predicted he *would* kill someone from his 'list', and he *didn't*. So that actually fulfilled the prophecy. But if the oracle had just said no to begin with, Belkar *wouldn't* have gotten frustrated and stabbed him.

Should I just conclude that Belkar eventually would have killed him anyway? Yeah, I think I'll go with that.

This, I think is the crux of the issue. What the Oracle probably knew was that, pretty much WHATEVER he did or said, it would be a miracle if the lethal combination of Belkar's love of killing and hatred of kobolds didn't result in his death the next time our favourite homicidal halfling dropped round for tea and cake.

[paladinofshojo]

Well, still the Oracle tried to get out of the prophecy being fulfilled by giving half-assed anwsers to the "unfullfilled prophecy" due to the fact that it was more favorable to come out alive rather then end up dying. Still death isn't the handicap it is in our world, so he could always get ressurected but he managed to get back at Belkar in the most horrible way possible
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html

The Oracle had a win-win situation, either pacify a dissatisfied, crazy, homocidal halfling and getting away unscaithed or either die one mortal death (due to the fact that he could always get ressurected) in exchange to have his killer suffer a fate worse then death and choke out his own digestive tract for the rest of his life.....Tell me, what's more worse, dieing and getting ressurected or http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html

[TheCheshireHat]

*scratches head*

It really depends on how much the Oracle knew. If, for example, he knew that Belkar would indeed kill him when Belkar asked him, its logical to assume he made the ambiguos answer so Belkar would not kill him right then (besides the fact then, in true oracle style, he's answers are always ambiguous). That would give him time to gather (just) enough Kobolds and build a settlement (welcome sign included). Part A of the plan accomplished. Then, when Belkar and Haley visited him again, he intentionally provoked Belkar into killing him and triggering the MoJ. Part B accomplished. Yes, he died. But he knew he was gonna die (although perhaps not exactly when), so he took steps to ensure that it occured on his own terms and that his killer ended off quite a bit worse of than him.

Does this make him a Magnificent Bastard? ehh, not really. Its the kinda thing a Magnificent Bastard would do, but he has to pull something like this a few more times more for me to consider him a truely Magnificent Bastard. (Can you tell I love the words Magnificent Bastard? :smallbiggrin: )

Of course, this assumes that he knew Belkar would kill him right from the beggining (or pretty much), but then again, he IS an oracle, and he's predictions seem to work, albeit in a roundabout way.

[Chronos]

OK, now I think that the Oracle is a magnificent bastard. Not only does Belkar get his Mark triggered, but he's also still constrained from further killing by it, since he doesn't know that it's already triggered. So Belkar now lacks his cake and is un-eating it, as it were.

[DracoDei]

Well, if one defines vomiting as "un-eating", there is no "so to speak" about that part... :smalleek:

[EponymousKid]

For one thing, it's a label that gets thrown around far too often. The Oracle could see into the future. The fact that he had a plan that worked out is not impressive at all.

And even if it were, he had a plan that worked out. That's it. And it's the only thing he's ever done in the comic besides acting all pissy and making lame excuses to Belkar.

So, like, no.

[paladinofshojo]

For one thing, it's a label that gets thrown around far too often. The Oracle could see into the future. The fact that he had a plan that worked out is not impressive at all.

And even if it were, he had a plan that worked out. That's it. And it's the only thing he's ever done in the comic besides acting all pissy and making lame excuses to Belkar.

So, like, no.


So what, like any magnificent bastard who has a supernatural power wouldn't abuse it? That's the point of his magnificence as a bastard, he knows the plotline before everyone else, so he has the right to act like a jackass to anyone since he KNOWS everything possible.........He probably knew Belkar was going to kill him from the begginning and decided to use his oracular power to find away to give him some sort of ironic revenge....and had a cleric stashed away to raise him later.........In short, being a magnifcent bastard means abusing SOMETHING whether it be supernatural power, emotional weaknesses of one's enemies, your own intellectual superiority, or your own enourmous resources.................In short, being a magnifcent bastard doesn't mean playing fair, if they did they wouldn't be "bastards" now would they?

[Arkenputtyknife]

So what, like any magnificent bastard who has a supernatural power wouldn't abuse it? That's the point of his magnificence as a bastard, he knows the plotline before everyone else, so he has the right to act like a jackass to anyone since he KNOWS everything possible.........He probably knew Belkar was going to kill him from the begginning and decided to use his oracular power to find away to give him some sort of ironic revenge....and had a cleric stashed away to raise him later.........In short, being a magnifcent bastard means abusing SOMETHING whether it be supernatural power, emotional weaknesses of one's enemies, your own intellectual superiority, or your own enourmous resources.................In short, being a magnifcent bastard doesn't mean playing fair, if they did they wouldn't be "bastards" now would they?
The thing is that knowing the future, and "abusing" it, is the only thing he has going for him. A magnificent bastard has to be a lot more than that; he has to be… well… magnificent. Is the Oracle magnificent?

In the red corner: Ernst Stavro Blofeld. Crimes: too many to count, on an international scale. In the blue corner: the Oracle of Tiamat. Crimes: being a snarky little bitch and successfully avenging himself against his murderer.

No, the Oracle doesn't measure up.

[Remirach]

So what, like any magnificent bastard who has a supernatural power wouldn't abuse it?
Eponymous Kid wasn't talking about the Oracle "abusing" his powers, he was talking about the overuse of the term "magnificent bastard." Every time a character (in any series) pulls off a moderately clever stunt, there's at least one person who wants them to be termed a MB. Even when the character isn't a villain, and the trope is specifically about villains. I mean, the Oracle wouldn't have done anything to Belkar if Belkar hadn't actually killed him.

[The Gremlin]

He knew Belkar was going to kill him so he founded a town so Belkar will initially destroy himself in the process and to add insult to injury he even named the town "Lick my orange balls halfling". My giuess is that the Oracle is probably luaghing at Belkar in the afterlife.Aside from that, his whole occupation involves sitting around and awnsering questions for exorbent amounts of money so, who else thinks that the Oracle is a magnificent bastard?

Not I. Belkar murdered him. I think he was quite justified. After all, he knew Belkar couldn't be punished anywhere else.
As for the vague answers, that wasn't the Oracle's fault. Belkar asked a 'yes or no' question, the answer was yes. The Oracle couldn't do anything about it.
Hell, with Roy's question, for the sake of the plot, he tried to get Roy to change his question.

[Ninja]

well i think that today's comic earns him a MB status... don't ya think?

[Kato]

well i think that today's comic earns him a MB status... don't ya think?

Still... no? Because he used his powers to get ressed? Dunno... He's not even a villain... He just pulled a single trick on B... and he it wasn't even hard for him to do so. Nope, I still don't give it to him.

[Remirach]

well i think that today's comic earns him a MB status... don't ya think?

Not really, no. I'll grant that I was wrong and he was more in control of the situation than it first appeared. Still, he would have preferred not to have died. And he's still not a villain... or at least, if he is a villain, it hasn't been revealed yet. If it turns out that he is a villain, orchestrating some grand scheme of his patron deity's, and perhaps even subtly manipulating those who come to him for predictions into carrying out her will... THEN I will call him a magnificent bastard.

For now, he is the arrogantly cool lizard guy who gave Belkar a right screwing-over.

[Jayngfet]

I think he's just earned magnificent bastardy.

[Querzis]

I think the Oracle is really cool and hes quickly becoming one of my favorite NPC but a MB? I think he is magnificient...but how the hell is he a bastard? Hes not villain and he try to help the heroes, even when Roy ask the wrong question, he try to tell him. Belkar killed him as well as lots of other innocent people. The fact that the Oracle activated the MoJ doesnt make him a bastard, he was totally justified.

[Roderick_BR]

Ok, I just read #0571 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html). Yup, he's a MB, alright :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja]

well i think that today's comic earns him a MB status... don't ya think?

ok, i was wrong..... i just remembered the part of you haveing to have some grand evil scheme to be a MB.... so he aint one... but he's still cool!!!

[The Extinguisher]

He's more of a non-villian Chessmaster. For the time being, that is.

The fact he can get a high-level wizard and cleric on command, is blessed by an evil goddess and the line "say hello to your boss for me" makes me wonder. The boss is obvious some disciple of Tiamat. The Oracle will be back, I'll bet my pants on it.

[BRC]

I don't think he's a magnificent bastard. He just has a practical worldview It proably works out that the oracle can see the future, but can't change it. Therefore, he couldn't stop belkar from stabbing him, but he COULD make belkar pay for it, and then set things up so he would be ressurected afterwards.

Besides, being able to see the future and build your plans around that isn't magnificence, it's cheating.

[paladinofshojo]

Since when does a magnificent bastard abide by any rules? They ALWAYS exploit loopholes!!

[kpenguin]

I think he's just a chessmaster, not exactly a magnificent bastard yet.

[The Gremlin]

Since when does a magnificent bastard abide by any rules? They ALWAYS exploit loopholes!!

Look, Belkar KILLED him. The Oracle was utterly justified. B had it coming.

[Babale]

Hell, with Roy's question, for the sake of the plot, he tried to get Roy to change his question.


hmm... if he knew the future, he knew Roy wouldnt change his question... so why try?

[Querzis]

hmm... if he knew the future, he knew Roy wouldnt change his question... so why try?

There is a difference between knowing the future and being omniscient. Hell, even gods arent usually omniscient in mythology.

What would be the point of doing a ritual to answer questions if he already knew the answers? He can get the answer to any question but that doesnt mean he already know the answers to any questions otherwise his brain would just explode.

[Kurald Galain]

I think he's just a chessmaster, not exactly a magnificent bastard yet.

Precisely. Even with all his clairvoyance, he can't hold a candle to Petyr Baelish.

[Titanium Dragon]

No.

Simply put, a magnificant bastard has to be a magnificant bastard. VERY few villians qualify.

Good examples of Magnificant Bastards:
Light from Death Note
Xanatos from Gargoyles

You've got to be charismatic; that's part of being a magnificant bastard. The oracle is not charismatic. He really lacks the magnificant part necessary.

[Warren Dew]

hmm... if he knew the future, he knew Roy wouldnt change his question... so why try?

I think he can basically see anything he wants to, but he doesn't necessarily look for everything. I believe he was worried because he knew the Order was due in Azure City next, and he was concerned that Roy's misworded question would throw that off - he made some comment about not wanting to be held responsible if the plot went wrong.

As for "magnificent bastard", I think after today's strip he's definitely "magnificent", but it's unclear he'll ever be a "bastard".

[Stormoverkrynn]

I am thinking he is an MB..he has total control of the situation. Fate is never definate even an oracle knows that look at The matrix..she knew Agent Smith was coming for her and she proably could have left and got away..but by being aborbed into Agent Smith, she screwed him..She gave him a vision that gave him confidence that he was gonna win. Now look at what the Oracle did with Belkar. He could have not come in to work that day. Had another kobold take his place. Yes you could argue it may have still happened. But he is an oracle...could he not see the next death and prevent it. Look at movies like Next or Paycheck. Events were looked upon and changed. The oracle did infact die, invoking the Greater Mark of Justice. Only way to invoke that rule would be to die. He also made the Belkars prediction come true. Next time he runs into Belkar he can even say your prediction came true and further blow Belkars mind. The oracle really did a number On Belkar. and for the record..the oracle is a villian of Tiamat.

just my two cents....

[slayerx]

whether or not the oracle fits the actual definition of a "magnificent bastard" doesn't matter ot me cause i still think he's a magnificent little bastard...

I mean think about it...
He made Belkar suffer from the mark of justice, and thanks to the memory charm on the valley Belkar is also DENIED the satisfaction of having killed the oracle. Also due to the charm, Belkar doesn't even know WHY he is sick... he will be sick for who knows how long, and we goes to look for a remedy he will be looking in all the wrong places due to the fact that he doesn't know it's the fault of the mark of justice. Not to metnion that fact that only benefit of having the moj activate would be that he now can once again kill people since there is no addition punishment (though it may be difficult to do so; he might still be able to kill off a few very low level NPC's)... but he will not be able to do so since he thinks he's just naturally sick. And ofcourse, Belkar is denied any possible return for his cash since his prediction did come true.

And in the end the Oracle even got himself a raise so that the only thing he lost out of this whole ordeal is just needing to regain that expert level. Big, big win for the oracle, major loss for Belkar.

And i wouldn't be surprised if this is how the oracle deals with ALL of his killers... allows himself to be killed, but manages to royally screw over his killers at the same time

[Talyn]

I'm just delighted that he handed Belkar enough XP to hang himself (no more Karma Houdini (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KarmaHoudini)for you, you gottdammen Heroic Sociopath (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSociopath)) while suffering no permanent harm. Whether or not that puts him into the Magnificent Bastard category is personal, but I will agree with the earlier posters that he has had his Crowning Moment of Awesome.

[The Gremlin]

whether or not the oracle fits the actual definition of a "magnificent bastard" doesn't matter ot me cause i still think he's a magnificent little bastard...

I mean think about it...
He made Belkar suffer from the mark of justice, and thanks to the memory charm on the valley Belkar is also DENIED the satisfaction of having killed the oracle...Oh, pooor Belkar! He doesn't get to have the satisfaction of MURDERING somebody...man, let's all feel sorry for him now...

[Remirach]

and for the record..the oracle is a villian of Tiamat.

Being associated with Tiamat does not automatically grant him villain status. We don't know her agenda, or if she has one. We don't know what, if anything, he's doing to promote it. He's never been shown doing anything villainous, or even THINKING about doing anything villainous. Being a smartass does not count, unless Roy's a villain. Getting revenge on Belkar does not count, unless Vaarsuvius is a villain.

I think the problem with the trope, you know this one, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) is that people perceive it as a popularity contest that one has to pass some kind of "coolness threshold" to qualify for. But really you can be a completely awesome character and not be a Magnificent Bastard. The character archetype is specifically about a villain who is devastatingly effective in his evil plans and yet so amazingly self-assured and competent that the audience -- and often the heroes themselves -- are left with a certain RUEFUL admiration. This isn't the kind of guy whose goals you support, innocent people suffer horribly because of the MB's ambitions. But he has such style and panache that it's like watching an artist at work.

If, as I said, we later get a reveal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheReveal) where it is shown that the Oracle has masterminded some kind of heretofore unknown plot that will result in his world domination, then we can start talking about him being a Magnificent Bastard. For now, he is completely lacking in the most basic requisites.

(With a huge dash of IMNSHO, of course, since the trope is subjective, but the only character I really see as coming close to the ideal is Xykon. Nale aspires to this level but has thus far failed miserably.)

[Lizard Lord]

I don't feel like looking up the trope, but by my definition he is a magnificent orange bastard.

Oh, and while I am sure this has already been posted, the newest comic shows that he is at least almost always in control.

[The Gremlin]

I don't feel like looking up the trope, but by my definition he is a magnificent orange bastard.

Oh, and while I am sure this has already been posted, the newest comic shows that he is at least almost always in control.

As Remirach said, V has whacked B around a bit, but nobody's calling he/her a magnificent bastard. Yes, he had arranged to be raised, but would you forgive a guy who couldn't kill you because you got away? No, because whether or not he--or Belkar--succeeded in destroying you permanently, he still tried to.
The Oracle is still innocent.

[slayerx]

Oh, pooor Belkar! He doesn't get to have the satisfaction of MURDERING somebody...man, let's all feel sorry for him now...
So where did i say we should have sympathy for Belkar?

Hey, to Belkar, that IS a big deal...
He loves to murder... he loves to murder kobolds even more... he loves murdering kobolds who make him angry even more than that. What, you think he gets no joy out of turning their heads into hats and nacho bowls

Heh, remember Belkars reaction when he found out he was never gonna kill miko's horse? same thing pretty much... he gets alot of joy out of killing things

[Querzis]

So where did i say we should have sympathy for Belkar?

Hey, to Belkar, that IS a big deal...
He loves to murder... he loves to murder kobolds even more... he loves murdering kobolds who make him angry even more than that. What, you think he gets no joy out of turning their heads into hats and nacho bowls

Heh, remember Belkars reaction when he found out he was never gonna kill miko's horse? same thing pretty much... he gets alot of joy out of killing things

The point was that what the Oracle did doesnt make him a bastard at all. He was justified and never did anything that could make him a bastard. I know, I'm a bastard so just trust me, the Oracle isnt a bastard. Hes really cool and he can be a jerk but hes not a bastard. By the way yes, I know I use the word bastard a lot but I really like that word...bastard.

[Kurald Galain]

I know, I'm a bastard so just trust me,

If you're a self-confessed bastard, why should we trust you? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html) :smalltongue:

[Underground]

Reading an argument if a character fits to a scheme, such as "Magnificient Bastard", is about as enjoyable and enlightening as reading a discussion about D&D alignment.

[Remirach]

I don't feel like looking up the trope, but by my definition he is a magnificent orange bastard.

This is what I was talking about when I said it had turned into a popularity contest. If you don't care enough to look it up, why do you care if he should be accounted one in this thread? Well because it sounds cool... which it does... and because he could presumably fit either of the adjectives separately. But really when the discussion is about the trope itself, alternate personal definitions don't really matter.


Reading an argument if a character fits to a scheme, such as "Magnificient Bastard", is about as enjoyable and enlightening as reading a discussion about D&D alignment.
Well then I'm awfully sorry for tying you down and forcing you to read it. What exactly were you expecting to find here?

[MyrddinDerwydd]

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: If he wasn't before, he certainly is after the current strip (571)!!!!

[TheCheshireHat]

After reading the latest strip, and re-reading the tvtropes entry I've changed my opinion on the Oracle. He certainly fits the bill as far as planning goes (hard not to, he appears to be somewhat omniscient), but he lacks an important aspect:


Above all else, what defines a Magnificent Bastard is the ability to inspire respect and grudging admiration from friend, foe, and audience alike.


So no, he is not a Magnificent Bastard. He is a Bastard, though :smallbiggrin:

[The Gremlin]

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin: If he wasn't before, he certainly is after the current strip (571)!!!!

:smallconfused: Just because he did not want to stay dead? Even if he didn't remain in the afterlife, B was still a jerk. Belkar had it coming.

[kpenguin]

I'd like to point out:


Nor does one Crowning Moment Of Awesome suffice - a Magnificent Bastard has been wearing that crown the whole time.

Thus far he's had but ONE Crowning Moment of Awesome come to fruition. Certainly not enough to be wearing a crown of awesome moments.

[maxon]

whether or not the oracle fits the actual definition of a "magnificent bastard" doesn't matter ot me cause i still think he's a magnificent little bastard...

Yeah funny.


I mean think about it...
He made Belkar suffer from the mark of justice, and thanks to the memory charm on the valley Belkar is also DENIED the satisfaction of having killed the oracle. Also due to the charm, Belkar doesn't even know WHY he is sick... he will be sick for who knows how long, and we goes to look for a remedy he will be looking in all the wrong places due to the fact that he doesn't know it's the fault of the mark of justice. Not to metnion that fact that only benefit of having the moj activate would be that he now can once again kill people since there is no addition punishment (though it may be difficult to do so; he might still be able to kill off a few very low level NPC's)... but he will not be able to do so since he thinks he's just naturally sick. And ofcourse, Belkar is denied any possible return for his cash since his prediction did come true.

The thing is Belkar doesn't even know the MoJ has been set off because of the memory charm so he should still be inhibited from killing people in towns and cities for fear of it going off. The Oracle is indeed a devious little git.

[The Gremlin]

Yeah funny.



The thing is Belkar doesn't even know the MoJ has been set off because of the memory charm so he should still be inhibited from killing people in towns and cities for fear of it going off. The Oracle is indeed a devious little git.
Devious little git? Yes. Magnificent Bastard? No. :smallbiggrin:

[paladinofshojo]

Yeah........but did you hear his last line during http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html?


"True I'm not a Cleric................but ain't it funny how I always seem to have just the right magic item here in my robe? Dismissal!"

Now that sure sounds like a magnifcent bastard...............

[Ninja]

Yeah........but did you hear his last line during http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html?


"True I'm not a Cleric................but ain't it funny how I always seem to have just the right magic item here in my robe? Dismissal!"

Now that sure sounds like a magnifcent bastard...............

as much as he is in control, to be a MB you need to have some master evil scheme going one.... as for as we know, Oracle aint got one.... if it is ever revaled that he has some kind of a grand master evil scheme, than he will be an MB....

just my thought....

[EponymousKid]

The reason he had the right magical item was because he knew that was going to happen in advance.

[paladinofshojo]

The reason he had the right magical item was because he knew that was going to happen in advance.


Your point?

[Kurald Galain]

Your point?

That it wasn't a Xanatos gambit, he's just clairvoyant. The former would have been way more magnificent than the latter.

[Skaven]

The Oracle isnt being a bastard.

They were the first ones to threaten to kill him.

Belkar did in fact do so.

he's just ebing a normal person, and rightfully so.

[The Gremlin]

Yeah........but did you hear his last line during http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html?


"True I'm not a Cleric................but ain't it funny how I always seem to have just the right magic item here in my robe? Dismissal!"

Now that sure sounds like a magnifcent bastard...............

Actually, that sounds like someone who makes good use of his magic items to get rid of 'pests'.
...sounds more like your standard adventurer than a MB...

[EponymousKid]

Exactly. He's doing what anybody would do in his situation.

[paladinofshojo]

Exactly. He's doing what anybody would do in his situation.

Anyone who has oracular powers that is.............:smallamused:

[BRC]

Your point?

Let me explain it using a poker metaphor.


A magnificient bastard is like an expert poker player that can read his opponents so he knows when the raise/stay/fold, and manipulate them into raising/staying/folding when it most advantageous to him. He then uses mental math and probability calculations to guide his actions.
The Oracle is like a guy who, at the beggining of the game, knows the order the deck is in. He wins not because he can read his opponents to know their hands, but because he already knows their hands. He dosn't figure out the likelyhood that the second next card will be the a black ten, he knows it because somebody gave him the list.

[EponymousKid]

Anyone who has oracular powers that is.............:smallamused:

Which is part of "his situation", isn't it?

[chiasaur11]

Let me explain it using a poker metaphor.


A magnificient bastard is like an expert poker player that can read his opponents so he knows when the raise/stay/fold, and manipulate them into raising/staying/folding when it most advantageous to him. He then uses mental math and probability calculations to guide his actions.
The Oracle is like a guy who, at the beggining of the game, knows the order the deck is in. He wins not because he can read his opponents to know their hands, but because he already knows their hands. He dosn't figure out the likelyhood that the second next card will be the a black ten, he knows it because somebody gave him the list.

Of course, anyone who can stack the deck, and get away with it gerts major points in this sort of game.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Of course, anyone who can stack the deck, and get away with it gerts major points in this sort of game.

Except he didn't stack the deck. The guy who did stack the deck just gave him something to memorize.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Of course, anyone who can stack the deck, and get away with it gerts major points in this sort of game.
More important, he didn't play the party into his hands or manipulate their actions...he just knew that he was about to get screwed so he set up a parting shot.

[paladinofshojo]

More important, he didn't play the party into his hands or manipulate their actions...he just knew that he was about to get screwed so he set up a parting shot.


Well, how exactly did he get skrewed? He came out relatively unscaithed...AND virtually skrewed Belkar without him even knowing it!!

[Eric]

I don't feel like looking up the trope, but by my definition he is a magnificent orange bastard.

Oh, and while I am sure this has already been posted, the newest comic shows that he is at least almost always in control.

IMO, the Oracle is a great version of the Deus Ex Machina and a darn good foil for the OOTS team.

However, he's not a full-blown character.

Xykon's had his bony butt handed to him a few times.
RC has had all the SoD issues beating him down
OOTS have had failures galore
Lien has had his entire AC capture arc to show who he is when he's got nothing to hope for
Miko had her arc where she won and lost (and in denial of that loss being her fault, lost dramatically more, and even gained pathos at the very end)

The Oracle hasn't had any development.

So he's a foil and a good one.

It may be enough for Magnificent Bastard, but it's by no means a shoe-in for him.

Hence four pages.

[Eric]

What the Oracle probably knew was that, pretty much WHATEVER he did or said, it would be a miracle if the lethal combination of Belkar's love of killing and hatred of kobolds didn't result in his death the next time our favourite homicidal halfling dropped round for tea and cake.

...the lethal combination of Belkar's love of killing and hatred of kobolds ***combined with pissing off the whole team with his weasel words*** didn't result in his death...

I think is what you needed.

We won't ever know if Belkar would have stabbed him without the egging on, but we know B's been there twice before and not stabbed the orange little kobold barstand once.

So we know your version of events is incorrect because otherwise the Oracle would have died twice already.

Now, if we add in the little addition I marked, it can make sense: the previous two times the Oracle didn't try hard (and so badly) to weasel out of a money back guarantee.

Which then brings us to: did the Oracle precipitate this BECAUSE of his weaseling?

Because the Oracle is then guilty of manipulation and we now have a case against him.

[Eric]

I think he's just a chessmaster, not exactly a magnificent bastard yet.

How about:

Manipulative Bastard

Even has the same initialism...:smallbiggrin:

[EponymousKid]

Except he doesn't manipulate anybody... and he doesn't have any plans... He's got this Oracle gig, and he's pretty comfortable with it.

[Remirach]

We won't ever know if Belkar would have stabbed him without the egging on, but we know B's been there twice before and not stabbed the orange little kobold barstand once.
On the ONE previous occasion where Belkar visited the Oracle, (the first time, only Roy and Durkon went, as it had been before the OOTS was formed) he had to be restrained (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html) by Roy from inflicting violence upon him.


Now, if we add in the little addition I marked, it can make sense: the previous two times the Oracle didn't try hard (and so badly) to weasel out of a money back guarantee.
No one tried to INVOKE the money back guarantee before this.


Which then brings us to: did the Oracle precipitate this BECAUSE of his weaseling?

Because the Oracle is then guilty of manipulation and we now have a case against him.

That's absurd. If someone at Sears rudely refuses to take back a purchased item on what *I* consider spurious grounds, am I now justified in shooting them? Or even nonfatally wounding them? Belkar didn't qualify for the money back guarantee because the Oracle knew he was still going to kill... the Oracle himself. He tried to "weasel" out of it by suggesting Belkar had *already* killed someone else, in the hopes that he might forestall his own death. He wasn't trying to "egg Belkar on," he was trying to save his own skin.

Incidentally, I see no evidence that Celia and Haley were "pissed off" by the Oracle either. They thought his case was dubious, and Celia (and the ghostly form of Roy) was annoyed at his public mentioning of their lovemaking, but all they suggested was that the Oracle's claims were dubious and Belkar had a good cause for demanding a refund. Then the dagger went through the Oracle's chest and rendered the whole thing moot.

[EponymousKid]

The Oracle isn't stupid. He wouldn't manipulate Belkar to kill him on purpose (which, yeah, how does that make him the smart one?)

[Eric]

Except he doesn't manipulate anybody... and he doesn't have any plans... He's got this Oracle gig, and he's pretty comfortable with it.

Uh, what about winding Belkar up to enrage the (addmitted psychopath) into killing him?

Or are you going to say this isn't manipulation because the Oracle can't manipulate (which is a tautology and circular argument)?

[Eric]

No one tried to INVOKE the money back guarantee before this.

Well, why weasel out? Why not say "you have not exhausted all possibilities and so you don't get a refund until that's done"? Because, as far as the "you comlpeted it" it was (and the Oracle KNOWS) at that time WRONG. The oracle says "I didn't buy it myself". So he KNEW he was lying. Ergo, at that time, if the completion was "you killed Roy", Belkar DESERVED a refund. So trying to INKOKE the refund was correct?

When you take something back to Sears because (say it's a music CD) it has an error in the pressing and Sears tell you that you can't have a refund because you may have copied the (uncopyable) CD, do you just go "oh, OK"? Or do you DEMAND A REFUND?

PS: look at the frowny faces. Roy even says "OI!". The yellow freak annoyed the entire party.

[EponymousKid]

Uh, what about winding Belkar up to enrage the (addmitted psychopath) into killing him?

Or are you going to say this isn't manipulation because the Oracle can't manipulate (which is a tautology and circular argument)?

That wasn't a plan of his. If he didn't know that was supposed to happen, there's no way he would have done that.

Also, riling up a lunatic so they'll murder you: Worst plan ever.

[Eric]

Except he doesn't manipulate anybody... and he doesn't have any plans... He's got this Oracle gig, and he's pretty comfortable with it.

Uh, what about winding Belkar up to enrage the (addmitted psychopath) into killing him?

Or are you going to say this isn't manipulation because the Oracle can't manipulate (which is a tautology and circular argument)?

PS: I'll buy the argument "The oracle can't change the future seen because it would only cause the forseen event to come about in a worse fashion" (which is odd, because he'd have already seen the fashion it came about and if it were to be worse than that, he'd failed to see the future, but nevermind) when you show me an example where the Oracle tries to avoid a prophesy and it gets worse.

M'Kay?

[EponymousKid]

... an example where the Oracle tries to avoid a prophesy and it gets worse.

M'Kay?

Except that would never happen, because it wouldn't get worse, it would just happen all the same, wouldn't it? And how bad can it possible get for him, we know he's not going to die again for oa long, long time.

So, what, if he hadn't done anything, Belkar wouldn't have killed him? And his prophecy would've been wrong?

[Eric]

That wasn't a plan of his. If he didn't know that was supposed to happen, there's no way he would have done that.

Also, riling up a lunatic so they'll murder you: Worst plan ever.

If he didn't know that was supposed to happen, how did he know Belkar was going to kill him there and then? (EDIT: and how come he knows exactly how the druid will kill him, but Belkar had him completely flummoxed?)

And how was it the worst plan ever?

Oracle: 50,000gp short, -1 expert level (still an oracle)
Belkar: MoJ activated and his greatest desire thwarted for the rest of his life.

Who got off worse?

[Eric]

So, what, if he hadn't done anything, Belkar wouldn't have killed him? And his prophecy would've been wrong?

The point is the Oracle DIDN'T do nothing to Belkar. He made up lies (and he knew they were lies).

And after the lies, he's still got a 100% record. Because an Oracle that's right 99% of the time isn't worth traveling to visit, is it. You'd be as well off using a Lore spell... Cheaper too.

[Remirach]

Well, why weasel out? Why not say "you have not exhausted all possibilities and so you don't get a refund until that's done"?
Because there were only two possibilities left at that time, the Oracle being one of them, and the only one of those two on hand? I'm thinking, from the Oracle's POV, Belkar did not need a REMINDER.


Because, as far as the "you comlpeted it" it was (and the Oracle KNOWS) at that time WRONG. The oracle says "I didn't buy it myself". So he KNEW he was lying.
Actually he says "I wasn't really buying those theories either..." The phrasing allows for an element of doubt. The Oracle thought the interpretations were WEAK, but his statement does not prove he was sure they were FALSE. There were quite a few people who thought that Belkar had indeed fulfilled his prophecy by giving Roy the ring of jumping, so it's not like it was a completely implausible interpretation.


Ergo, at that time, if the completion was "you killed Roy", Belkar DESERVED a refund. So trying to INKOKE the refund was correct?
Not if Roy's death did indeed complete the prophecy. Should the Oracle just have given Belkar his refund? Maybe. I mean, ordinarily, I'd say yes, but if he thought his odds of surviving this encounter were 100-1, maybe he just thought screw it. Either Belkar was going to kill him no matter what he did (prophecy is immutable), or Roy's death really did fulfill the conditions and thus Belkar was not entitled to a refund.


When you take something back to Sears because (say it's a music CD) it has an error in the pressing and Sears tell you that you can't have a refund because you may have copied the (uncopyable) CD, do you just go "oh, OK"? Or do you DEMAND A REFUND?
I don't care for your analogy because Belkar's case is more like purchasing an item that does not work the way you intended it to work rather than getting one that does not work at ALL, but even using yours, while you are entitled to demand a refund, you are not entitled to MURDER, no matter HOW snarky the person behind the sales desk is.


PS: look at the frowny faces. Roy even says "OI!". The yellow freak annoyed the entire party.
I was, but I don't see the anger. Celia shows anger (with the "V" eyebrows) when the Oracle brings up her intimate moment, and Haley twice shows the flat eyebrows that often indicate irritation or concentration. Celia also shows them once, when she's trying to rules-lawyer with the Oracle, but she doesn't look angry. Also, when does Roy say "oi!" I seem to have missed it. It's Belkar whose agitation is plain. The others might have found the Oracle trying, and they definitely didn't appreciate him bringing up a private moment in front of everyone, but they were not pissed off. Haley even defends him and says that he'd helped her.

[Eric]

Because there were only two possibilities left at that time, the Oracle being one of them, and the only one of those two on hand? I'm thinking, from the Oracle's POV, Belkar did not need a REMINDER.[QUOTE]

Huh? What are you saying here?There's a shedload more options:

1) Here's a refund.
2) Still not completed. You could kill me or V yet out of your list.
3) I'm afraid you don't get a refund, but you can get a new prediction free.
4) Roy is standing right here next to me, I can pass on messages.

"Wind up the psycho" is waaay down the list of reasonable actions. However, if they'd been used and Belkar (like he'd done before) NOT killed the Oracle:

a) The oracle may have admitted he's not infallible and lose clients
b) The MoJ would not have activated, and all that effort to create the village is in vain

[QUOTE=Remirach;4523684]Actually he says "I wasn't really buying those theories either..." The phrasing allows for an element of doubt. The Oracle thought the interpretations were WEAK, but his statement does not prove he was sure they were FALSE. There were quite a few people who thought that Belkar had indeed fulfilled his prophecy by giving Roy the ring of jumping, so it's not like it was a completely implausible interpretation.[QUOTE]

Uh, he's an ORACLE, people! He can SEE THE FUTURE. So well, in fact that he knows he's going to need resurrection next time and WHY.

[QUOTE=Remirach;4523684]Not if Roy's death did indeed complete the prophecy. Should the Oracle just have given Belkar his refund? Maybe. I mean, ordinarily, I'd say yes, but if he thought his odds of surviving this encounter were 100-1, maybe he just thought screw it. Either Belkar was going to kill him no matter what he did (prophecy is immutable), or Roy's death really did fulfill the conditions and thus Belkar was not entitled to a refund.[QUOTE]

Neither Haley, Celia, Roy, Belkar NOR Oracle figured that to be right.

And just to remind you, HE'S AN ORACLE. If he couldn't spot when it happened, he's not much of an oracle, is he.

[QUOTE=Remirach;4523684]I don't care for your analogy because Belkar's case is more like purchasing an item that does not work the way you intended it to work rather than getting one that does not work at ALL, but even using yours, while you are entitled to demand a refund, you are not entitled to MURDER, no matter HOW snarky the person behind the sales desk is. [QUOTE]

a) D&D
b) We KNOW B's a Psycho. So does O. And when hijackers took control over planes, what did we used to do? We let them have their way. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE PSYCHO.

Duh.

c) I don't care if you like the analogy. All analogies fall down somewhere else they would not be analogies. I don't like yours either but I didn't tell you you can't use them.

[QUOTE=Remirach;4523684]I was, but I don't see the anger. Celia shows anger (with the "V" eyebrows) when the Oracle brings up her intimate moment, and Haley twice shows the flat eyebrows that often indicate irritation or concentration. Celia also shows them once, when she's trying to rules-lawyer with the Oracle, but she doesn't look angry. Also, when does Roy say "oi!" I seem to have missed it. It's Belkar whose agitation is plain. The others might have found the Oracle trying, and they definitely didn't appreciate him bringing up a private moment in front of everyone, but they were not pissed off. Haley even defends him and says that he'd helped her.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

Panel 11. (OK, it was "HEY!", but what's the difference in meaning?)

See also comparison panel 5 & 9 (both are angry, read Haley's text) and then look again at panel 18.

Does Haley look like she's concentrating in ANY panel? No.

"Oooh, I'm irritated" but more importantly HALEY ISN'T A PSYCHO! Sheesh, do you poke a bees nest a little bit because they only sound a *little* angry..?

See also #570. Panels 1,2 and 7.

See #163, last panel. V just *irritated*?


#161, panel 1.

#160, panel 2 & 6.

[Remirach]

Huh? What are you saying here?There's a shedload more options:

1) Here's a refund.
2) Still not completed. You could kill me or V yet out of your list.
3) I'm afraid you don't get a refund, but you can get a new prediction free.
4) Roy is standing right here next to me, I can pass on messages.
Back up a second there -- you're not reading my reply in context to what YOU wrote initially. YOUR statement was, "Why not say, you have not exhausted all possibilities [of your prophecy] and so you don't get a refund until that's done"?." Considering his query, this translates to, "nuh-uh, there are two people still living that you may yet kill." One of those people was leagues away and a high-level wizard. The other was a few FEET away with no class levels. Put yourself in the Oracle's shoes. You want to remind him he can still kill one of those people and thus fulfill the prophecy?


Remirach:Actually he says "I wasn't really buying those theories either..." The phrasing allows for an element of doubt. The Oracle thought the interpretations were WEAK, but his statement does not prove he was sure they were FALSE. There were quite a few people who thought that Belkar had indeed fulfilled his prophecy by giving Roy the ring of jumping, so it's not like it was a completely implausible interpretation.

Uh, he's an ORACLE, people! He can SEE THE FUTURE. So well, in fact that he knows he's going to need resurrection next time and WHY.
The Roy theory, at least, had merit. And I would think that, when personal matters are at stake, there is a difference between knowing the future and being able to sanguinely accept that future. If there was any chance -- any chance whatsoever -- that he could convince Belkar his prophecy had already come to pass, he had absolutely nothing to lose by trying to persuade him of that. Worst case scenario, Belkar kills him -- well, he'd already prepared for that eventuality. But it was still "worth a shot" to play the longshot.


Remirach: Not if Roy's death did indeed complete the prophecy. Should the Oracle just have given Belkar his refund? Maybe. I mean, ordinarily, I'd say yes, but if he thought his odds of surviving this encounter were 100-1, maybe he just thought screw it. Either Belkar was going to kill him no matter what he did (prophecy is immutable), or Roy's death really did fulfill the conditions and thus Belkar was not entitled to a refund.

Neither Haley, Celia, Roy, Belkar NOR Oracle figured that to be right.

And just to remind you, HE'S AN ORACLE. If he couldn't spot when it happened, he's not much of an oracle, is he.
So you think the Oracle could have given Belkar his refund, and he would have walked away peacefully? Despite the fact that it would violate the prophecy, which you've said is never wrong?


[b]RemirachI said I don't care for your analogy because Belkar's case is more like purchasing an item that does not work the way you intended it to work rather than getting one that does not work at ALL, but even using yours, while you are entitled to demand a refund, you are not entitled to MURDER, no matter HOW snarky the person behind the sales desk is.

a) D&D
Just because it's D&D doesn't mean murder is a proportionate response. I mean, maybe depending on your campaign setting, I REALLY don't get the impression it is acceptable in the OOTS-verse.


b) We KNOW B's a Psycho. So does O. And when hijackers took control over planes, what did we used to do? We let them have their way. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE PSYCHO.
So Belkar is not at fault for the killing because he is a psycho and thus the Oracle should have just rolled over and acquiesced to his demands? Also, I thought your prior analogy was bad, but... uh, Flight 93 anyone?


c) I don't care if you like the analogy. All analogies fall down somewhere else they would not be analogies. I don't like yours either but I didn't tell you you can't use them.
I extended you the same courtesy, so why are you being all pissy at me? I said I "didn't care for" your analogy because returning an obviously broken item isn't analogous to wanting a refund for a prophecy that didn't work out the way you EXPECTED it to. I still tried to USE it, I just didn't think it was appropriate.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

Panel 11. (OK, it was "HEY!", but what's the difference in meaning?)
Yeah, I mentioned that. He wasn't annoyed that the Oracle was selectively interpreting the prophecy, he was annoyed because the Oracle revealed a very private moment in front of Belkar and Haley with no regard whatsoever for tact.


See also comparison panel 5 & 9 (both are angry, read Haley's text) and then look again at panel 18.

Does Haley look like she's concentrating in ANY panel? No.
She's ARGUING. Reasonably. Look, it's hard to tell with stick figure expressions, but they've worn that same "flat-eyebrow" look when demonstrating a whole range of emotions -- it often depends entirely on context. To pick a comic at random, look at Redcloak in panel 5 of 543 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html). He's in pure expository mode. He immediately gets annoyed (angry eyebrows) when Xykon suggests he could just kill O-Chul and Redcloak could raise him.

Same for the rest of your examples. With such simple art, CONTEXT has to provide a lot of clues as to the emotions of the character in question. and "mild irritation" is not at all the same thing as "fury."

[Eric]

Same for the rest of your examples. With such simple art, CONTEXT has to provide a lot of clues as to the emotions of the character in question. and "mild irritation" is not at all the same thing as "fury."

Context: Boyfirend getting jiggy with a sorcerer chick.

Mild irritation???

[Remirach]

Context: Boyfirend getting jiggy with a sorcerer chick.

Mild irritation???
Okay so I assume you're referring to 161 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html). I SAID, you need to use CONTEXT on occasion to determine the exact meaning of the facial expression, but if you insist on disputing this particular point, you may note that in that comic, Haley has eyebrows which curve up slightly, (it is somewhat easy to overlook the the difference, but there are purely flat eyebrows and slightly curved ones -- Roy nicely demonstrates the difference in panel 2 and 10 in comic 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) -- the upward curve usually seems to indicate a more agitated state than the simple flat line, unless the person is grinning, in which case it's a triumphant and/or smug smile), then immediately goes to angry-V eyebrows, then has angry eyebrows, gnashed teeth, and stress marks along the eyes. Clearly, she wasn't happy to begin with, but it only got worse. So, no, not mild irritation, it wasn't the same expression she or Celia wore in 567, but Belkar himself had plenty of those upwardly curved eyebrows and angry-Vs.

...I can't believe I've spent so much time focusing on the art... if only I could draw, I really should have made my own damn avatar already.

[Eric]

Remirach:
So you think the Oracle could have given Belkar his refund, and he would have walked away peacefully? Despite the fact that it would violate the prophecy, which you've said is never wrong?

Uh, I've not said it is never wrong. OTHERS do, I respond with "if they can never be wrong, then there's nothing Belkar could have done to change it, so he's not at fault either".

You've done this before, thought I'd said something when it wasn't me.

We'll never know what Belkar would have done if he had gotten the refund because the Oracle refused. But it's a hell of a jump to persume Belkar would, of his own free will and with no purpose, KILL the oracle who he'd seen before. He didn't then. Why now? Because the Oracle weaseled. It's the only change.

[Remirach]

Remirach:
So you think the Oracle could have given Belkar his refund, and he would have walked away peacefully? Despite the fact that it would violate the prophecy, which you've said is never wrong?

Uh, I've not said it is never wrong. OTHERS do, I respond with "if they can never be wrong, then there's nothing Belkar could have done to change it, so he's not at fault either".

You've done this before, thought I'd said something when it wasn't me.
I apologize if I've attributed an opinion to you that you do not hold. I must have picked it up from one of your rebuttals and thought it was your own opinion. Mea culpa.

But even if prophecy IS never wrong (which I myself tend to think) I think the notion that Belkar is thus "not at fault" for killing the Oracle is nonsense. There was no invisible gun to his head forcing him to do it, he had total free will when he chose to do the deed. He's still morally culpable.


We'll never know what Belkar would have done if he had gotten the refund because the Oracle refused. But it's a hell of a jump to persume Belkar would, of his own free will and with no purpose, KILL the oracle who he'd seen before. He didn't then. Why now? Because the Oracle weaseled. It's the only change.
Actually another change that took place was that Roy wasn't physically present this time around, and one thing the comic has made abundantly clear is that Haley CANNOT keep Belkar in check the way Roy could. (It certainly doesn't help that she didn't have the command word to threaten him with, nor does she possess the manpower necessary to beat him into submission as the team threatened to do when Belkar wanted to harvest Elan for XP.) In fact, last time around, as I've sad before, Roy DID have to restrain him from threatening the Oracle. And why is it a jump to think Belkar would just up and kill somebody for practically no good reason whatsoever? What about Solt Lurkyurg? Or all those people he killed in "Origin?" Like the guard he'd already escaped from? The patrons at the bar? Belkar lives to kill. For most of the comic's run, we've seen him restrained by Roy's presence. Before that, he ran wild. After Roy's death, he's been reverting to his prior tendencies.

So it's NOT a hell of a jump at all. But you are right, we don't know what would have happened if the Oracle had just given him his refund, or why, for that matter, the Oracle DIDN'T do just that, seeing as he didn't want to die in the first place. But my money is on Belkar taking the money and killing the little orange bastard anyway, because he would have just proved his prophecies were good for nothing anyway and there was probably good loot to be found in that tower of his.

[JonahFalcon]

And why is it a jump to think Belkar would just up and kill somebody for practically no good reason whatsoever? What about Solt Lurkyurg? Or all those people he killed in "Origin?" Like the guard he'd already escaped from? The patrons at the bar? Belkar lives to kill. For most of the comic's run, we've seen him restrained by Roy's presence. Before that, he ran wild. After Roy's death, he's been reverting to his prior tendencies.

Sir! Sir! We see an astonishing jump in the level of Kilonazis!

I'm just happy Belkar got what's coming to him. :smallamused:

PS. Is it me, or does gaintitp have the best emoticons evar?

[Stormoverkrynn]

I am almost possitive Roy would never have given anyone the command word. Haley is quick on the trigger and would use it on a whim not thinking. Roy can keep most the party in check. I think Roy has more trouble controling Elan than he does Belkar. Belkar is chaotic evil, and this line of events was going to happen sooenr or later. Being evil he really doesnt care for the greater good and Belkar is not a thinker..he is a killer. He will kill first ask questions later. A smart character would have taken Roys Body and got that MoJ taken care of. Does any of this give Belkar the right to commit murder? The answer is No. Regardless of that though...Belkar may have killed him anyways. Had Roy been there in physical form would Belkar have killed him..the answer would be No. Belkar either respects or fears Roy. The Oracle on the hand knew what was going on and chose to do what he did. As demonstrated after a few comics..he could have carried an item on him to stop the event If he had wanted. Wand of Paralyze or a bodyguard of some sort? The prediction could have still happened in the future there is no time limit on that sort of thing unless one is stated. The Oracle took it upon himself to make it happen and screw over Belkar in the process...is it justified? You could argue it both ways. This is kinda like a confrontation between a gun wielding robber vs a store counter clerk saying go ahead pull the trigger. You know the guy is holding a gun or in this case a knife and yet you are kinda saying go ahead pull the trigger. I honestly think the Oracle wanted this event to happen and did not try to prevent it. I have no doubt in my mind that the oracle could have stopped Belkar from killing him if he had wanted it. He set this whole event up and played it out.

[Remirach]

Is it just me or is it starting to seem like every Oracle-related thread has now turned into a discussion as to whether or not he deserved his stabbing? It's beginning to feel a mite redundant..

I am almost possitive Roy would never have given anyone the command word. Haley is quick on the trigger and would use it on a whim not thinking.
Uh, I completely disagree. If you would, please point to comics where she has demonstrated a tendency to act in a rash, short-sighted manner when so much is at stake. Haley stated that she only put up with Belkar -- when she would MUCH rather have dumped him (see 540 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html)) only because she needed all the help she could get. She was thinking ahead, in a logical, clear-headed way. It was difficult for her, with Belkar on one side and Celia on the other, but she kept her cool because she had the greater goal in mind. That does not mesh with your assessment of her character.

The THREAT of invoking the mark would have been QUITE useful to her purposes, but incapacitating him would have been a last resort. Haley is not stupid.


Does any of this give Belkar the right to commit murder? The answer is No. Regardless of that though...Belkar may have killed him anyways. Had Roy been there in physical form would Belkar have killed him..the answer would be No. Belkar either respects or fears Roy. The Oracle on the hand knew what was going on and chose to do what he did. As demonstrated after a few comics..he could have carried an item on him to stop the event If he had wanted. Wand of Paralyze or a bodyguard of some sort? The prediction could have still happened in the future there is no time limit on that sort of thing unless one is stated. The Oracle took it upon himself to make it happen and screw over Belkar in the process...is it justified?
There IS a time limit, actually. ~6 months before Belkar dies. Will he and the Oracle even SEE each other again in that time period? If not, the deed HAD to be done then and there. Moreover, we don't know that the Oracle, even knowing the future, has the power to circumvent his prophecies -- we only know he can take steps afterward to ensure his resurrection. Any speculation otherwise at this point is conjecture, since none of the other prophecies have failed. And, well, YMMV, but if some homicidal jerkwad was destined to kill me at some time or another, I would find it perfectly justified to set up a posthumous revenge after the deed was done. Especially when said revenge involved invoking an MoJ that was designed to prevent Belkar from doing exactly what he did -- dealing lethal damage to a nonhostile entity. Consider it belated justice for Solt Luryurg, if you can't stand the idea of the Oracle benefiting.

I honestly think the Oracle wanted this event to happen and did not try to prevent it.
Conjecture. From his statements it was clear he didn't want to die at all -- unless you're suggesting that was a lie too, which is further conjecture without evidence.

I have no doubt in my mind that the oracle could have stopped Belkar from killing him if he had wanted it. He set this whole event up and played it out.
We don't really know how the prophecy business works, so we have no idea whether it's possible to circumvent one. And your latter statement is, again (I'm sure you're tired of this word by now) total conjecture.

Now, you might be proven RIGHT, eventually, mind. You just currently have no real evidence to support your claim other than your "gut feeling."

EDIT: Oh, and I hope I haven't been too ugly with my responses to you. I hardly seem to notice posters' handles unless I've seen/talked with them a lot or their avatar is really unique or something, but when I looked at your profile I noticed you've just started posting and I've taken issue with 2 of your 3 first posts. I hope I haven't sent the wrong impression or anything. I find that I tend to be a bit abrasive even when I don't mean to be, especially after dark.

[Arcadius798]

that kolbold is perhaps the most amazing person in the comic, if i could...THE KOLBOLD ORACLE FOR '08!!!!

[ArmorArmadillo]

Well, how exactly did he get skrewed? He came out relatively unscaithed...AND virtually skrewed Belkar without him even knowing it!!

I posted after he was killed but before he was rezzed...still, it's not a magnificent bastard move.

Still, coming out unscathed and coming out better off are different. The Oracle doesn't benefit from having messed up Belkar...a magnificent bastard would have.

[JonahFalcon]

Stop making it sound like Belkar wouldn't kill the Oracle just for the heck of it, refund or no.

[hamishspence]

The Mark isn't entirely able to keep Belkar in check, even within cities. When he sees Nale he attempts to kill him (stopped by Charm) And when charmed he attempts to kill the rest of the Order.

[Linkavitch]

ME!! Most definitely.