What will the MoJ do to Belkar?

[Logalmier]

In one of my previous posts I mentioned that a MoJ is not a particularly large threat once you get around level 10. We know that Belkar is somewhere around 11-13th level, so what (in gaming terms) do you think it will do to him? Maybe Rich made a homebrewed mark? Or it's an empowered mark that does WIS damage? I think that is the most likely thing, because that would reduce Belkars WIS to zero, which will cause him to fall into a coma. Making him unable to cause any harm, as Roy said in comic #295 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html).

Post your speculations here!

[Kato]

If anything stat reducing it won't be his WIS *lol* unless you're going into negatives there... then it might be CON or STR, making him unable to move... yeah, I'd go for STR...

[Nerdanel]

A Mark of Justice cannot lower a stat to zero. Belkar with a wis of 1 would be more dangerous to his surroundings rather than less, as his impulse control would be weaker, so I don't think the mark would affect wis. If the Mark of Justice was the type that affected one of his stats, I'd make the stat str, as Belkar's choice of small daggers to fight with makes him heavily dependent on strength bonus in order to do appreciable damage.

However, I think the "sicker and sicker" wording doesn't really fit with any of the standard options. I believe we have a custom curse here. My guess is some form of progressive experience drain, such as one negative level/day or whatever rate is deemed balanced by the great DM in the sky. The curse wouldn't be that dangerous if there was a friendly cleric nearby...

[Logalmier]

A Mark of Justice cannot lower a stat to zero. Belkar with a wis of 1 would be more dangerous to his surroundings rather than less, as his impulse control would be weaker, so I don't think the mark would affect wis.

Ah, my bad.


If the Mark of Justice was the type that affected one of his stats, I'd make the stat str, as Belkar's choice of small daggers to fight with makes him heavily dependent on strength bonus in order to do appreciable damage.

Belkar's STR bonus is.. well, I'm not entirely sure what his strength is, being a halfling he has reduced STR, but it does seem like he has a high damage output for one fighting with 2 (small) daggers. Maybe he took Weapon Fineness?



However, I think the "sicker and sicker" wording doesn't really fit with any of the standard options. I believe we have a custom curse here. My guess is some form of progressive experience drain, such as one negative level/day or whatever rate is deemed balanced by the great DM in the sky. The curse wouldn't be that dangerous if there was a friendly cleric nearby...

I didn't get the feeling that the curse actually kills Belkar, from what Roy says in #295, rather it merely incapacitates him. I like that theory though.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Belkar will be paralyzed from the waist down and will be confined to a wheelchair for the remainder of the comic.

Or be transformed into a banana.

[Kyeudo]

Most likely, Belkar will get hit with a -6 penalty to Con. Given that the OotS have low Con bonuses all around, this will likely reduce Belkar to half of his normal hitpoints until he can get the curse removed.

[Amras Seer]

I say it is some sort of latent mark of disease and will paralyze him.

Isn't only Hinjo able to remove the MoJ?

[Inhuman Bot]

1)A high level wizard could possiblydispel is
2)Maybe it's a ravage. Consience? That would be fitting.. But anyways, I like the EXP drain theory. It makes sense.

[Swashbuckler]

As I posted in another thread ...

From the SRD (that's System Reference Document for the uninitiated):


Mark of Justice
Necromancy

Level: Clr 5, Pal 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You draw an indelible mark on the subject and state some behavior on the part of the subject that will activate the mark. When activated, the mark curses the subject. Typically, you designate some sort of criminal behavior that activates the mark, but you can pick any act you please. The effect of the mark is identical with the effect of bestow curse.

Since this spell takes 10 minutes to cast and involves writing on the target, you can cast it only on a creature that is willing or restrained.

Like the effect of bestow curse, a mark of justice cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell. Remove curse works only if its caster level is equal to or higher than your mark of justice caster level. These restrictions apply regardless of whether the mark has activated.


Bestow Curse
Necromancy

Level: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.

* -6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
* -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
* Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.

You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.

The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.

Bestow curse counters remove curse.

Therefore, the Mark itself will not kill Belkar outright. However, in his debilitated state, it is likely that someone(s) or something(s) else might.

Time, and the Giant, shall tell.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I think the curse is going to be something that doesn't fit D&D rules. The "sicker and sicker" comment does suggest to me that it'll pull one of his stats to 0, even though a real MoJ couldn't do that.

[FrankNorman]

Question here: the Mark of Justice is defined under "Necromancy"? Isn't that supposed to be evil? How then could an Azure City cleric be able to use it?
We saw their top cleric try to "Bestow Curse" on Redcloak (who made his "saving throw"), so there's no doubt they have it. And they are supposed to be good.

[Halvormerlinaky]

If it's against an attribute, I'd go with Dex. Belkar would certainly have taken Weapon Finesse since he loves daggers, and he's a Halfling, so Str isn't his strength (ooo, I'm clever).

So lowering his Dex makes him less likely to hit, less likely to deal damage, and easier to hit. Plus it affects his Saves, if only a little.

But I doubt that's what the Giant intended with the MoJ. It won't be something so gamey as to affect a single attribute. It'll be more complicated than simple game rules can explain. This is after all a story, not just an encounter.

[brilliantlight]

Most likely, Belkar will get hit with a -6 penalty to Con. Given that the OotS have low Con bonuses all around, this will likely reduce Belkar to half of his normal hitpoints until he can get the curse removed.

I see it that way as well. Not only does it lower his HP it also makes him more vulnerable to disease and poison.

[David Argall]

we are supposed to The Mark will probably do far more damage than the rules allow, likely acting as an 8th level or so spell. Belkar's strength will likely be set at 1, if that, and other combat useful stats and skill may also be nerfed as well. any predictions and speculation.

[Revanmal]

Question here: the Mark of Justice is defined under "Necromancy"? Isn't that supposed to be evil? How then could an Azure City cleric be able to use it?

Not all necromancy spells are evil. Only things like inflicting harm or summoning undead are evil.

[hamishspence]

And not all forms of inflicting harm. The Harm spell does not have the evil descriptor, for example.

[silvadel]

If you really wanted to get under his skin -- polymorph into kobold...

But here I would say something to the order of big con penalties.

[Prowl]

From the description given it seems as if all his physical stats will suffer - STR, CON, DEX. "Sicker and sicker" directly impacts CON by definition, and with either STR or DEX intact I have full confidence that Belkar could continue to find a way to kill people. So it would have to be all three for the MoJ to do what was claimed.

[ericgrau]

You can still hurt stuff just as well after con damage. Even with a poor dex he could still hit weak creatures most of the time and do equal damage. It has to at least include strength. Dex and con may likely come aboard as well.

The various diseases and even poisons in dnd affect a variety of stats, btw. Some affect con, many more affect other stats. So "sick" could mean any stat or multiple stats.

[Alyais]

Some of the theorys here are pretty solid but I think you should all remember that a bunch of Paladins ordered this Mark of Justice placed on Belkar. Paladin's themselves can't cast Mark of Justice so obviously a cleric (of suspected good alignment if he's hanging with the paladins) placed it on him.

This would hint at the mark being some sort of incapacitation effect rather than a potential death effect.

[BisectedBrioche]

It will both turn his brain into spinach and artichoke dip and make his head explode.

[Drider]

Question here: the Mark of Justice is defined under "Necromancy"? Isn't that supposed to be evil? How then could an Azure City cleric be able to use it?
We saw their top cleric try to "Bestow Curse" on Redcloak (who made his "saving throw"), so there's no doubt they have it. And they are supposed to be good.

The 12 gods are a pantheon, and at least the rat god is chaotic evil(i believe). The pantheon as a whole may help azure city, allowing access to evil,good,lawful, and chaos at any time they need it.

[Halvormerlinaky]

Some of the theorys here are pretty solid but I think you should all remember that a bunch of Paladins ordered this Mark of Justice placed on Belkar. Paladin's themselves can't cast Mark of Justice so obviously a cleric (of suspected good alignment if he's hanging with the paladins) placed it on him.

This would hint at the mark being some sort of incapacitation effect rather than a potential death effect.

Read Swashbuckler's post again.

"Pal 4" So Paladins can cast it.

[factotum]

What will the Mark do to Belkar? Many things, all of them extremely painful...we can only hope. :smallwink:

[Zeful]

Why do people say that the Mark of justice (which acts like bestow curse) can't lower an ability score to zero? There's no clause in either spell that says they can't, and my memory recalls no such clause in the book, so where is this coming from?

[ericgrau]

because bestow curse can't lower an ability to zero.

[talltwin36]

Ok it was not just your run of the mill MOJ. It was a Greater MOJ. That probably means that Rich can make it do whatever he wants.

msquared

[Logalmier]

Well, 569 just came out, and so now we know. I don't think any of us were expecting that.:smallyuk:

[Demented]

Ok it was not just your run of the mill MOJ. It was a Greater MOJ. That probably means that Rich can make it do whatever he wants.

msquared

Which, apparently, is Conjure High-Velocity Vomitus with a caster level of 15.