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Drekkan
2008-06-20, 07:04 PM
So I have a question about the 4e warlock paragon paths and pacts. Now with retraining it says you can retrain one power, feat, skill you've previously learned as you level - but it doesn't mention pacts. Further, all the warlock paragons force you to have the pact associated with them.

Does it irk anyone else that just about every other class gets free will to choose which of their three paragon paths they want to pursue as they level and develop a feel for their character/abilities, but a warlock has to know right off the bat?

If you CAN retrain a pact then I withdraw my objection. But it just seems odd that they'd railroad one class like this.

The Necroswanso
2008-06-20, 07:14 PM
Warlock pacts stay, just like a Rangers combat style.

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-21, 04:40 PM
Aye, you can only retrain a Power, Skill, or Feat selection. Not class abilities that happen to involve an initial choice.

Yakk
2008-06-21, 05:37 PM
*nod* -- really, there needs to be more paragon paths for the Warlock.

It does make sense -- someone who has an Infernal pact changing to a Fey pact at level 7 seems very strange.

Drekkan
2008-06-21, 06:10 PM
Aye, it doesn't make sense that they could change it I just wanted to be sure. It seemed odd that they'd lock one or two classes in from 1st level when it appeared that they really wanted to free up characters to learn from 1st level and be able to fix mistakes (via retraining - which is one part of 4e that I really do like - especially for games with newer players).

I just figured that maybe they should've made paragon paths that varied on what powers you used, and how, and where and given advantage to certain powers instead of others - instead of obsessing about a particular pact.

Tough_Tonka
2008-06-21, 11:28 PM
I bet in time Wizards will produce more paragons paths for the warlock class. I imagine the reason there's only 3 for warlock is a matter of fairness. If they gave one type of pact more options then they'd be favoring it unless they gave each pact an extra path and the rest of the classes has only 4 or so paragon paths themselves.

Drekkan
2008-06-21, 11:50 PM
I bet in time Wizards will produce more paragons paths for the warlock class. I imagine the reason there's only 3 for warlock is a matter of fairness. If they gave one type of pact more options then they'd be favoring it unless they gave each pact an extra path and the rest of the classes has only 4 or so paragon paths themselves.

But why tie the paragon paths to the pacts at all?

TheOOB
2008-06-22, 12:09 AM
I can see the point of pact paragon paths, I could also see room for paragon paths that are not based on pacts.

That said, remember your warlock can still multiclass and take another classes paragon path if you don't like your pacts.

Grynning
2008-06-22, 01:31 AM
Don't try to do that in reverse though - taking a Warlock Paragon Path if you multi'ed into Warlock from another class is a pretty terrible choice, since all of them are based around the use of the Curse, which the multi-class Warlock feat does not give you.

All around the Warlock is not a well designed class IMO.

hamishspence
2008-06-22, 08:05 AM
the problem isn't so much the class as the multiclass feat. Warlock suffers (several powrs in every paragon path require the Curse) Ranger suffers more (paths aren't available at all) hoping these will be fixed, until then, grin and bear it.

TheOOB
2008-06-22, 12:31 PM
Ranger suffers more (paths aren't available at all) hoping these will be fixed, until then, grin and bear it.

I think it's fair to let someone who multiclasses in to have access to the ranger paragon paths, maybe require the TWF or weapon focus(bows) feat.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-22, 12:56 PM
But why tie the paragon paths to the pacts at all?

Because Warlocks are the fluffiest class available in 4e. Unlike wizards, rangers, or clerics, Warlocks explicitly get their powers by entering into pacts with one of three general power groups - Astral (Cthulhu), Infernal (Satan The Dark One), or Fey (Faerie Lords) - and their entire destiny is tied to whichever power they are tied to.

It would be kind of funny for an Infernal Pact Warlock to pursue a path where they divine the future (which is scary!) by drawing on the soul-sucking powers of Satan the Dark One. Likewise, why is the Astral Warlock suddenly pursuing a path of power that involves dancing through the Feywild?

I doubt there will be many more Warlock Paragon Paths, and if there are, they'll be variations based off of Pacts.

Grynning
2008-06-22, 01:19 PM
Because Warlocks are the fluffiest class available in 4e....
*snip*
I doubt there will be many more Warlock Paragon Paths, and if there are, they'll be variations based off of Pacts.

I don't know about that - there could be several very fluffy Paragon Paths that do not require you to have a particular path. Two that sprang to mind right away:
Pact-Breaker - A Warlock who broke their original pact, but via a sneaky Xanatos gambit/loophole was either already in a new one, or immediately gets a new one. This would allow a Warlock to switch their pact (since re-training does not) if they were unhappy with their original choice, plus it offers some interesting story elements (the providers of the original pact will hound them for all time now, and the new providers may not trust the Warlock that much).

Not sure what to call it, but a melee hybrid Paragon path, focused around the use of a Pact Blade dagger, or allowing you to melee with a rod (recall 3rd edition, where a lot of rods functioned as light maces/clubs). Similar to the Wizard of Spiral Tower PP, but, y'know, for a Warlock. Could work with any Pact.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-22, 01:30 PM
I don't know about that - there could be several very fluffy Paragon Paths that do not require you to have a particular path. Two that sprang to mind right away:
Pact-Breaker - A Warlock who broke their original pact, but via a sneaky Xanatos gambit/loophole was either already in a new one, or immediately gets a new one. This would allow a Warlock to switch their pact (since re-training does not) if they were unhappy with their original choice, plus it offers some interesting story elements (the providers of the original pact will hound them for all time now, and the new providers may not trust the Warlock that much).

Not sure what to call it, but a melee hybrid Paragon path, focused around the use of a Pact Blade dagger, or allowing you to melee with a rod (recall 3rd edition, where a lot of rods functioned as light maces/clubs). Similar to the Wizard of Spiral Tower PP, but, y'know, for a Warlock. Could work with any Pact.

So... Pact Breaker strikes me as a poor way for a Warlock to progress. Why decide to break 10 levels in your dealings? And if so, why form another pact? That seems more like Paladins becoming Blackguards to me: a rare and undesirable turn of events.

A Pact Blade Master probably would do better just to multiclass with Fighter, since the point of a Warlock is to develop a closer bond with your power entity, not just swing a shiny blade. I suppose you could repurpose the Spiral Tower Path if you want to be a Gish Warlock (and I bet WotC has that very path planned already, too :smallannoyed:).

I do agree that breaking Pacts should be able to be done, but the whole situation would need to be an adventure in and of itself (how does one back out of a contract signed with blood?) and not just a routine (or even exceptional) retraining. It's like being a Cleric of Pelor and then renouncing your faith and serving the Raven Queen - you're going to take some sort of big hit if you do it.

Frost
2008-06-22, 01:37 PM
It's like being a Cleric of Pelor and then renouncing your faith and serving the Raven Queen - you're going to take some sort of big hit if you do it.

Actually that's pretty much par for the course. The Raven Queen loves to do those things, so you pretty much just become a level X Cleric of Evil that does necrotic instead of radiant damage.

Grynning
2008-06-23, 02:40 AM
So... Pact Breaker strikes me as a poor way for a Warlock to progress. Why decide to break 10 levels in your dealings? And if so, why form another pact? That seems more like Paladins becoming Blackguards to me: a rare and undesirable turn of events.
*snip*
I do agree that breaking Pacts should be able to be done, but the whole situation would need to be an adventure in and of itself (how does one back out of a contract signed with blood?) and not just a routine (or even exceptional) retraining. It's like being a Cleric of Pelor and then renouncing your faith and serving the Raven Queen - you're going to take some sort of big hit if you do it.

I didn't say it should just be a whoop-de-doo, I have a different pact now thing - but remember that story elements tied to Paragon Paths usually a) happen "off-screen" (because the rest of the party may not want to follow the Warlock around while they argue legalities with bizarre external forces) and b) are fairly mutable and generic (Wizard of the Spiral Tower is the only one I can think of that actually has specific world elements tied to it, the bit about Corellon and the Tower). The explanation would be that in their daily communications with their otherworldly masters they have been making deals and finding a way out of their original pact while negotiating a new one. This certainly fits with their conniving, power-mongering flavor. The other characters wouldn't even need to become aware of it until the Warlock invoked the name of a different master, or demons showed up to attack the pact-breaker and the Warlock fought them off with his newfound powers.

Just saying, it could be done, and it's the only way I can think of to work in a pact change. I almost think that adding something like this is necessary - fluff aside, Warlocks are way too railroaded in their progression (as are all 4th edition characters to an extent, but with the 'lock it is very noticeable). If the Paragon Path matched the power levels of the others, and offered a few unique abilities, the guy who chose the Infernal pact but keeps taking Fey powers because he finds he likes them better has a way to remedy the situation.

Edit: I think this has accidentally turned into my first 4th edition homebrew :smalltongue: Time to get out the notebook...

Roderick_BR
2008-06-23, 07:48 AM
But why tie the paragon paths to the pacts at all?
True, they could have added a 4th paragon path unlinked to pacts. That would make more sense. When you reach 11th level, pic the "generic" path, or the one made for your pact. Would give players a big more freedom, and would fill the gap.

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-23, 10:09 AM
Actually that's pretty much par for the course. The Raven Queen loves to do those things, so you pretty much just become a level X Cleric of Evil that does necrotic instead of radiant damage.

The Raven Queen isn't Evil, despite being the Goddess of Death, she's Unaligned.