Lord_Kimboat
2008-06-20, 08:04 PM
I’m hoping that this doesn’t turn out to be yet another thread of bashing/defending 4e.
What I’d like to do here is examine the underlying issues of ‘why’ people don’t/do like 4e as compared to 3.5. After all, if one doesn’t like 4e (and from some of the above mentioned forums, many don’t) why do they write to forums instead of just playing 3.5?
When I first heard about 4th edition I was nonplussed. I play a lot of Living Greyhawk and the announcement of the new edition also announced the end of the campaign I had been playing for more than three years. Also, there was no announcement of Living Forgotten Realms appearing to replace Living Greyhawk at the time so I could be forgiven for thinking that WotC was just going to give up on the whole venture.
On the other side of the argument, the local gaming group that I sometimes play with was excited by the release of 4e. They could barely contain themselves and I found this curious. However, they didn’t play Living Greyhawk and knew of some of the more unbalancing issues of 3.5. I was also told by them, “it will be great! Just like when D&D went from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed!”
By this time the forums were already alight with arguments, claims, counter-claims and recriminations. Some of the information was dubious and/or inflammatory so I decided to wait until I actually have played 4e until I made a decision.
Now that it is out I have played a grand total of six sessions of 4e, and while I’ve heard that some people have extensive experience of playing many hours at high levels and different playing styles (including one poster who says that he has played at levels 1, 11, 15, 21 and 30. He also said that he hated it which surprises me; why play so much of a game you hate?), I do feel though that I have enough of a grasp of the game to comment on it. What I have seen so far is:-
Combats don’t seem any faster. None of the combats seem faster than 3.5 combats, however, this could be due to a number of factors. First, in the games I’ve played there have mostly been over five players and some of this could be player lag. Second, we are unfamiliar with the rules and things may speed up as we become more familiar and third, I didn’t play much 3.5 over level 10, where combats really did bog down.
It does seem more combat reliant. In what I’ve played so far, there have been lots of combat encounters with little story when compared to the best of 3.5 games. Again, there could be several factors effecting this, early adventures tend to be more focused on combat until people are very comfortable with the mechanic and can do it easily.
Easier for the DM. I also hear that our DMs love it because encounters are easy to build and customise, monsters have more varieties and thus encounters are more interesting (at least from their point of view). This could also be why they design/use more combat than role play.
The characters are more balanced. Exceptionally balanced in fact! It seems that no one class dominates over another and everyone is capable of contributing. There doesn’t seem to be the situation where we enter a trap filled corridor where we all sit around doing nothing while the rogue does his/her stuff. After which the rogue sits on his/her hands while we fight the undead afterwards which can’t be sneak attacked.
This does not mean that after five years of searching for and exploiting poorly written rules, one class won’t come to dominate, it just hasn’t happened yet.
I have enjoyed the games of 4e that I have played but have not yet played enough that I can say that it is definitively a better or worse system than 3.5. It does seem clear though that 3.5 had some major flaws. Whether this needed a whole new system to correct (or even needed correcting at all) cannot be known.
I can also see a few things about 4e that annoy those that annoy the 3.5 fans.
The hype surrounding 4e can become very annoying. Some of the 4e fans are very excited about it and are so enthusiastic in their praise that they can seem quite arrogant and patronising. When questioned on how can 4e be so wonderful, they can become defensive and lash out at 3.5 thinking that by denigrating the old system the new one seems greater.
Also, the fact that 3.5 will no longer be supported and will fade away is a troubling thought to many of us who invested thousands of hours of our time and energy into the game. To have that swept away just because WotC and Hasbro think that they can make more money on a new edition seems cruel and harsh.
However, my own personal opinion is that the gaming system one plays matters less than the gaming group one plays with. If you are gaming with a good group of people you have a much better chance of enjoying the game than with a bunch of dorks playing the best gaming system ever designed.
Also, Dungeons and Dragons is a game of imagination and creativity. You can house rule anything, even have a go at combining 3.5 and 4! Or, just keep playing 3.5! It’s not like WotC is going to come to your door and demand you give the books back (I can even imagine that people will be selling their 3.5ed books pretty cheap)!
For any who have bothered to read this very long post, I thank you and would also like to ask anyone posting below, please do not flame or complain about either 3.5 or 4e. You can do that in one of a dozen forums already here, but please consider that people that don’t agree with your stance aren’t attacking you or what you like/hate but are just disagreeing.
What I’d like to do here is examine the underlying issues of ‘why’ people don’t/do like 4e as compared to 3.5. After all, if one doesn’t like 4e (and from some of the above mentioned forums, many don’t) why do they write to forums instead of just playing 3.5?
When I first heard about 4th edition I was nonplussed. I play a lot of Living Greyhawk and the announcement of the new edition also announced the end of the campaign I had been playing for more than three years. Also, there was no announcement of Living Forgotten Realms appearing to replace Living Greyhawk at the time so I could be forgiven for thinking that WotC was just going to give up on the whole venture.
On the other side of the argument, the local gaming group that I sometimes play with was excited by the release of 4e. They could barely contain themselves and I found this curious. However, they didn’t play Living Greyhawk and knew of some of the more unbalancing issues of 3.5. I was also told by them, “it will be great! Just like when D&D went from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed!”
By this time the forums were already alight with arguments, claims, counter-claims and recriminations. Some of the information was dubious and/or inflammatory so I decided to wait until I actually have played 4e until I made a decision.
Now that it is out I have played a grand total of six sessions of 4e, and while I’ve heard that some people have extensive experience of playing many hours at high levels and different playing styles (including one poster who says that he has played at levels 1, 11, 15, 21 and 30. He also said that he hated it which surprises me; why play so much of a game you hate?), I do feel though that I have enough of a grasp of the game to comment on it. What I have seen so far is:-
Combats don’t seem any faster. None of the combats seem faster than 3.5 combats, however, this could be due to a number of factors. First, in the games I’ve played there have mostly been over five players and some of this could be player lag. Second, we are unfamiliar with the rules and things may speed up as we become more familiar and third, I didn’t play much 3.5 over level 10, where combats really did bog down.
It does seem more combat reliant. In what I’ve played so far, there have been lots of combat encounters with little story when compared to the best of 3.5 games. Again, there could be several factors effecting this, early adventures tend to be more focused on combat until people are very comfortable with the mechanic and can do it easily.
Easier for the DM. I also hear that our DMs love it because encounters are easy to build and customise, monsters have more varieties and thus encounters are more interesting (at least from their point of view). This could also be why they design/use more combat than role play.
The characters are more balanced. Exceptionally balanced in fact! It seems that no one class dominates over another and everyone is capable of contributing. There doesn’t seem to be the situation where we enter a trap filled corridor where we all sit around doing nothing while the rogue does his/her stuff. After which the rogue sits on his/her hands while we fight the undead afterwards which can’t be sneak attacked.
This does not mean that after five years of searching for and exploiting poorly written rules, one class won’t come to dominate, it just hasn’t happened yet.
I have enjoyed the games of 4e that I have played but have not yet played enough that I can say that it is definitively a better or worse system than 3.5. It does seem clear though that 3.5 had some major flaws. Whether this needed a whole new system to correct (or even needed correcting at all) cannot be known.
I can also see a few things about 4e that annoy those that annoy the 3.5 fans.
The hype surrounding 4e can become very annoying. Some of the 4e fans are very excited about it and are so enthusiastic in their praise that they can seem quite arrogant and patronising. When questioned on how can 4e be so wonderful, they can become defensive and lash out at 3.5 thinking that by denigrating the old system the new one seems greater.
Also, the fact that 3.5 will no longer be supported and will fade away is a troubling thought to many of us who invested thousands of hours of our time and energy into the game. To have that swept away just because WotC and Hasbro think that they can make more money on a new edition seems cruel and harsh.
However, my own personal opinion is that the gaming system one plays matters less than the gaming group one plays with. If you are gaming with a good group of people you have a much better chance of enjoying the game than with a bunch of dorks playing the best gaming system ever designed.
Also, Dungeons and Dragons is a game of imagination and creativity. You can house rule anything, even have a go at combining 3.5 and 4! Or, just keep playing 3.5! It’s not like WotC is going to come to your door and demand you give the books back (I can even imagine that people will be selling their 3.5ed books pretty cheap)!
For any who have bothered to read this very long post, I thank you and would also like to ask anyone posting below, please do not flame or complain about either 3.5 or 4e. You can do that in one of a dozen forums already here, but please consider that people that don’t agree with your stance aren’t attacking you or what you like/hate but are just disagreeing.