Korded Muscles

[Talic]

Grapple challenge for Cleric, level 6 build, posted by Solo.

Terms: flat open arena, stone, endless in all directions. Begin 30 feet away from first opponent. You have surprise round, and then initiative is rolled as normal.

1st opponent: A Cloaker. (CR 5)

[Solo]

I really don't know if I can keep this up, but I'm going to have my Cleric cast Divine Favor (+2), Extended, on himself surprise round.

Initiative: [roll0]

[Talic]

Encounter initiative: [roll0]

[Solo]

I cast Extended Enlarge Person on myself.

By Kord's Crusty Codpiece, you will be soundly thrashed!

119 rounds left on Divine Favor (+2)

Str 16, size Large, damage with mace 1d6+5, 1d6+6 two handed.

Grapple mod +13

[Talic]

Cloaker utilizes Moan ability. Effect: Fear. DC 15 Will or gain the Status condition: Panicked.

If you Fail your save, it will move to within 10 feet.
If you do not, it will move back 20 feet, to 50 feet distance.

[Solo]

Will Save: [roll0]

[Talic]

You pass save, cloaker moves to 50 feet distance. Your turn.

[Solo]

What's the matter, chicken?

Move forward 20 feet, cast Extended Bull's Strength on myself.

Str 20, grapple mod +15

Divine Favor (+2) 118 rounds, Enlarge Person 119 rounds, Bull's Strength 120 rounds,

[Talic]

Cloaker activates Standard action: Moan.

Effect: Nausea. Make a DC 15 Fort save or fall prone and gain the Nauseated condition for [roll0] rounds.

It's not chicken. I'm using its save or suck abilities on opponents who are disinclined to engage.

If you fail, it will close to a distance of 5 feet.
If you pass, it will fall back to a distance of 40 feet.

That will conclude the cloaker's turn.

[Solo]

I thought one of the points of the excercise was to see how grappling went, not how our ability to crank out Save or Sucks are.

Fort: [roll0]

[Solo]

My turn:

Str 20, grapple mod +15

Divine Favor (+2) 117 rounds, Enlarge Person 118 rounds, Bull's Strength 119 rounds.

I CHAAAAAAARGE at it.

I shall try to grapple it.
[roll0]

Oh, and +4 for being Large.

[Solo]

Opposed grapple checks as a free action.

[roll0]

[Talic]

No, the point of the ability is to see how well players can submit various monsters via grapple. It would hardly be a test if I nerfed monster abilities for that. Part of grappling is entering, dealing with enemy abilities, and locking it up.

That said, I have a grapple check to make.

[Talic]

Grapple Check to resist being grappled: [roll0]

EDIT: Cloaker is grappled, and takes damage equal to the cleric's unarmed damage.

[Solo]

Damage: [roll0]

Who is your daddy, and what does he do?

[Talic]

Hmm.

Cloaker's turn: Listed grapple action: Melee attack at a -4 penalty.

Tail Slap: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll3]

Cloaker turn complete.

EDIT: Full plate yields AC of No less than 16, even with modifiers for size and decreased dex. That translates as "Fail", for cloaker.

[Solo]

Opposed grapple check to deal damage

[roll0]

Divine Favor (+2) 116 rounds, Enlarge Person 117 rounds, Bull's Strength 118rounds.

[Talic]

Resist Roll: [roll0]
EDIT: Failure; creature takes unarmed strike of 1d3+7.

Followup for my turn: Attack -4 penalty:

[roll1]
If hit: [roll2]
It threat: [roll3]
If crit: [roll4]

EDIT: 7 damage back to cleric, barring AC >20.

[Solo]

Cuthbert's Curvaceous Cudgle! That was a low blow!


Grapple to deal damage: [roll0]

[Solo]

Oh, and the damage.

[roll0]

[Talic]

It has been brought to my attention that you have been rolling 1d3+7, when you are entitled to be rolling 1d4+7, by virtue of your considerable size. I leave the option to you, as to whether to take the rolls given, or scrap them in favor of the 1d4 rolls.

Grapple to resist damage: [roll0]

Creature takes 1d4+7 additional damage, as the Cleric-train continues into round 3 of his grapple.

[Solo]

Moar Damage:

[roll0]

[Solo]

erg.


Roll: [roll0]

[Talic]

Attack, -4 penalty:
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll1d6+5

EDIT: Broken rolls don't matter when the attack whiffs!

Turn is yours.

As I've caught onto your pattern:
Rolls for your next round, if needed:Grapple to resist damage:[roll3]

[Solo]

Grapple: [roll0]

Damage: [roll1]

[Talic]

Attack, -4 penalty:
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll1d6+5

EDIT: Broken rolls don't matter when the attack whiffs!

Turn is yours.

As I've caught onto your pattern:
Rolls for your next round, if needed:Grapple to resist damage:[roll3]

That's all I have to say to that.

[Talic]

Switch it up!

Opposed Grapple check to damage: [roll0]

If successful: [roll1]

EDIT: Don't bother rolling, a 1 will win, no damage.

[Solo]

Ah, so the opponent is vanquished?

[Talic]

No, the defense roll was in the previous post. It was a 33. The cloaker is making an opposed grapple against you, which failed miserably.

Cloaker got a nat 20 on a defense. And a 7 or less is an auto lose for the cloaker, which rolled a 6 on offense. Now it's your attack.

In case you make a grapple check for damage:Defense: [roll0]

[Solo]

I shall grapple again.

[roll0]

Damage [roll1]

[Talic]

Defense: [roll0]

In the case of ties, opposed rolls go to the roller with the higher modifier. Cloaker vanquished.

Time elapsed. Surprise round - buff
Round 1, 2 - Buff.
Round 3-6 - Grapple.

Factors:
Cloaker had a slightly higher success rate than statistics dictate.
Cleric saving throw rolls better than average.
Cleric reach negated creature reach.
Grapple damage brought down enemy in the correct number of rounds.

Next opponent immediately appears: A troll, 30 feet distant.

Surprise round goes to the player, followed by initiative.

[Solo]

Ok.

I cast Aid on myself.

[roll0] temp HP

Initiative: [roll1]

[Talic]

Initiative: [roll0]

Tie. Reroll.

[Talic]

Initiative tirebreaker:[roll0]

[Solo]

Initaitive: [roll0]

[Talic]

Troll action: Charge to 10 feet distance.

Touch attack to initiate grapple: [roll0]
Opposed Grapple check: [roll1]
Damage if successful: [roll2] (for unarmed strike damage for a large creature, per grapple rules)

Troll turn over, following resolution of rolls.

[Solo]

Grapple: [roll0]

(+2 from divine favor turns out not to apply)

[Solo]

Cleric's Grapple: [roll0]

[Talic]

Troll fails to initiate grapple. Thus, if you want to grapple it, you'll need to make a touch attack.

[Solo]

In that case, since it has a -2 to AC after charging,

Attack: [roll0]

[Talic]

hits touch AC.

Opposed check: [roll0]

Troll is grappled, taking unarmed strike damage.

[Solo]

[roll0]

That's not a grapple, this is a grapple.

[Talic]

GRAAR!!!! GrikGrak Smash puny human!

Regeneration kicks in, removing 5 damage.

Grapple check to pin: [roll0]

If successful, troll will exercise option to leave you unable to speak, as it makes you eat dirt.

EDIT: Troll currently has 63 hp, and has 3 points of nonlethal damage.

[Solo]

Piddle.

[roll0]


Cleric's grapple:

[roll1]

Grrr! Rodney smash puny troll!

[Talic]

And Rodney doth smash. The troll cannot beat your grapple mod. He takes unarmed strike damage.

YOU MAKE GRIKGRAK MAD!

Attack, -4 penalty: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll3]

[Solo]

AC 18.

By the thews of Kord, whence flows this tide of EPIC FAIL?

Grapple: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[Talic]

(you're one damage roll behind.)

Auto fail, 10 damage.
[roll0]

[Talic]

Total damage after regeneration (2 rounds not accounted for):

Troll: 63 hp, 13 nonlethal damage.

Troll action:
attack, -4 penalty: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll3]

[Solo]

(Thanks)

Grapple: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[Sir Giacomo]

Just as a side remark: doing all encounters in a row greatly favours the buffing characters (and the joker monk would shine) and is not representative of play.
The cleric in the 2nd encounter with the troll would have simply lost initative and then could crushed in a grapple with his min/lvl buffs gone.

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Giacomo, would you like some fine wine?
http://www.cooperagebrew.com.au/images/wine.jpg

[Talic]

Just as a side remark: doing all encounters in a row greatly favours the buffing characters (and the joker monk would shine) and is not representative of play.
The cleric in the 2nd encounter with the troll would have simply lost initative and then could crushed in a grapple with his min/lvl buffs gone.

- Giacomo

Buffs go down between ECL boosts, as it counts as a full day of rest, recovery, and the like. Buffs will be factored, and some enemies are far worse for casters than non. I have a comprehensive battery of enemies. It's designed so that everyone will lose. Eventually.

After this, I'll open the same list to level 6, and tactic allowed, and see how long people survive. I doubt anyone will survive ECL 7.

[Talic]

Troll counter grapple: [roll0]

If fail, then damage accrues.

Damage accrues.

[Talic]

After regeneration: 63 hp. 16 nonlethal damage.

Round 4 of grapple:

Troll: attack, -4 penalty:
[roll0]
if hit: [roll1]
if threat: [roll2]
if crit: [roll3]

[Solo]

Oh look, he's finally moved up from wiffing to slapping!

(When does party damage come in again?)
Grapple: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[Talic]

End of this round.

Troll takes 10 nonlethal.

After regeneration: 63, 21 nonlethal.

In grapple, 5th round:
Troll attack: [roll0]
damage: [roll1]
if threat: [roll2]
if crit: [roll3]

After this attack resolves troll takes 12 lethal damage from party assistance.

[Solo]

Continue to grapple:[roll1d20+17[/roll]

Damage: [roll0]

[Solo]

[roll0]

There we go

[Talic]

resist: [roll0]

GRIKGRAK HATE FIRE!

[Talic]

51 remaining HP, 25 nonlethal, after regeneration

FIRE BURN!

Opposed grapple check to escape grapple: [roll0]

[Solo]

If you can't take the fire, then stay out of the kitchen.
Opposed Grapple: [roll0]

[Solo]

Rodney sticks out his leg as the troll breaks free in hopes of recapturing it.

Touch attack:
Grapple: [roll[1d20+17

What's the hurry? When life gives you problems, all you have to do is roll with it.

[Solo]

[roll0]

Again....

[Solo]

DamagE: [roll0]

[Talic]

Troll grappled (another massive roll is unbeatable)

51 HP, 26 Nonlethal (after regeneration)

OW! NO! GO 'WAY! GOTTA EAT FIRE THROWER GUY!

Grapple check to escape: [roll0]

At the conclusion of this action, troll takes 12 damage.

[Solo]

Counter escape Grapple: [roll0]

Cleric's grapple: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

[Talic]

Troll's Counter to damage: [roll0]

OW GET OFF ME!

Troll's attempt to attack, -4 penalty: [roll1]
If hit: [roll2]
If threat: [roll3]
If Crit: +[roll4]

Troll takes 12 damage.
EDIT: Troll at 39 hp. 21 nonlethal damage.

[Solo]

SPOOOOOON!

Grapple: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[Talic]

Grapple to resist: [roll0]

Attack: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]
If threat: [roll3]
If crit: [roll4]

Troll life: 27 hp, 16 nonlethal

[Solo]

I said SPOOOOON!!!!!

Grapple: [roll0]
Damage: [roll1]

[Talic]

Grapple to resist: [roll0]

At this point, troll is 27 hp, 26 nonlethal.
Troll regenerates. 27, 21 nonlethal.

Grapple to escape: [roll1]

At conclusion of this action, troll is 15 hp, 21 nonlethal, and goes unconscious. Finish grapple for the win.

[Solo]

[roll0]

bugger me.

[Solo]

Melee touch attack to initiate grapple: [roll0]

Grapple check: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

[Talic]

auto-success. Troll unconscious. Allot 3 additional rounds for 12 lethal a round to kill, while you grapple.

[Solo]

Excellent.

[Talic]

Next challenge begins immediately.

CR 5, Challenge 3: Dire lion.

You get surprise round, then initiative is rolled.

[Solo]

I decide charge and grapple it.
Attack: [roll0]
Grapple: [roll1]
Damage: [roll2]

[Talic]

Aggressive, nice.

Nobody lets my monsters with pouncing charge grapples have any fun.

Grapple defense: [roll0]

Initiative: [roll1]

EDIT: Not grappled.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again,

I do not wish to spoil the fun here, but
- the troll after round 11 is at 31 hit points (in between Talic allotted 12 additional damage to the troll in two rounds that I do not understand, and forgot to regenerate in the last rounds). So it is very much alive
- why would the troll try to escape the grapple when it is so much more successful at doing claw attacks, even at the -4 penalty?

After round 11, the troll according to my calculations is at 31 hp, and the cleric of Kord (having suffered 25 damage so far) is at 30 (17 without the aid spell).

- Giacomo

[Solo]

Initiative [roll0]

[Talic]

Hi again,

I do not wish to spoil the fun here, but
- the troll after round 11 is at 31 hit points (in between Talic allotted 12 additional damage to the troll in two rounds that I do not understand, and forgot to regenerate in the last rounds). So it is very much alive
- why would the troll try to escape the grapple when it is so much more successful at doing claw attacks, even at the -4 penalty?

After round 11, the troll according to my calculations is at 31 hp, and the cleric of Kord (having suffered 25 damage so far) is at 30 (17 without the aid spell).

- Giacomo

Troll takes damage after each of its actions, beginning on post 56, due to successful grappling for 5 consecutive rounds.

Post 56 brings the troll to 51 hp, 21 nonlethal.
It takes 9 damage (51hp 30 nonlethal) (solo's attack)
It then regenerates (51hp, 25 nonlethal)
Post 60 brings troll escaping grapple, and taking 12 more. (39 hp, 25 nonlethal)
Troll was regrappled before it could escape, taking 8 damage. (39hp, 33 nonlethal) (solo's attack)
It then regenerates (39hp, 28 nonlethal)
Post 65 brings another escape attempt, which fails.
It then takes 12 damage (27 hp, 28 nonlethal).
It should actually be unconscious at post 65.
It would then auto fail the check for damage, taking another 11 (27 hp, 39 nonlethal), and would burn faster than it regenerates from there.

Thank you for prompting the review. Troll regenerates at the start of each of its turns. It takes damage at the end of each of its turns, starting with post 56. Disregard any damage taken after post 66. It should not have happened.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, I wish to comment again here to illustrate that this cleric build, due to too low damage output, simply did not win yet.

To reiterate:
Surprise round: cleric casts aid, is at 48 hp (note the 7 damage taken in the fight before).
ROUND 1 (post 36+)
Troll charges and attempts grapple, fails.
Cleric grapples, succeeds, does 8 damage.
Troll 55, Cleric 48
ROUND 2 (post 43+)
Troll regenerates, 60
Troll attempts to pin (which now has been found to be useless, and even more so with only one grapple attempt/round). Fails
Cleric wins grapple for 10 damage
Troll 50, Cleric 48
ROUND 3 (post 45+)
Troll regenerates, 55
Troll attacks in grapple, fails
Cleric wins grapple for 10 damage
Troll 45, Cleric 48
ROUND 4 (post 48+)
Troll regenerates, 50
Troll attacks, fails
Cleric wins grapple for 8 damage
Troll 42, Cleric 48
ROUND 5 (post 54+)
Troll regenerates, 47
Troll attacks, hits, does 9 damage
Cleric wins grapple for 10 damage
Troll 37, Cleric 39
ROUND 6 (post 56+)
Troll regenerates, 42
Troll attacks, fails
Cleric wins grapple for 9 damage
Troll 28, Cleric 39
ROUND 7 (post 60+)
Troll regenerates, 33
Troll tries to escape grapple (?!! what was that for? Useless strategy), escapes but remains next to Cleric
Cleric grapples again, succeeds, does 8 damage
Troll 25, Cleric 39
ROUND 8 (post 65+)
Troll regenerates, 30
Troll again tries to escape (??!!!), fails, takes 12 damage from somewhere (???!!)
Cleric loses grapple check
Troll 30, Cleric 39
ROUND 9 (post 67+)
Troll regenerates, 35
Troll attacks, does 8 damage
Cleric loses grapple check
Troll 35, Cleric 31
ROUND 10 (post 69+)
Troll regenerates, 40
Troll attacks, does 8 damage
Cleric wins grapple, does 10 damage
Troll 30, Cleric 23 (without temp. hits only 10!)
ROUND 11 (post 71+)
Troll regenerates, 35
Troll tries to escape grapple again (why, oh why???! It's just a waste of time against someone with a higher grapple check when you only have one attack, for the smallish chance to be one round free for a successful rend vs a full plate opponent), fails
Cleric re-establishes grapple, does 9 damage
Troll 26, Cleric 23
ROUND 12
Troll regenerates, 31
Hopefully it will have learned from experience and simply keep attacking, wearing down the cleric.

So, as I commented before, the troll challenge is far from over for the cleric, who imo is bound to fail here. Plus, the combat could well start to wear down the buff rounds after a while...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

PS: btw, the cloaker fight took 7 rounds, not just 6.
PPS: I'd also suggest to assume lethal damage being done in the grapple checks as default, otherwise confusion can ensue.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I'll do the same to check your calculations. I'm ignoring cleric health however as it is irrelevant.

Surprise Round:
Cleric casts Aid
troll hp:63


Round one:
Troll charges and fails to grapple, what's missing however is the attack of opportunity Solo should have gotten since the troll doesn't have imp grapple and the cleric has enlarge active.

Cleric grapples back, succeeds deals 8 damage
troll hp:55

Rounds grappling:1

Round 2:
troll regens, troll hp:60
Troll pins(it is a spell caster after all:smalltongue:) and fails
Cleric deals damage:10
troll hp:50

Round 3:
troll regens, troll hp:55
Troll attacks at -4 and fails

Cleric grapples f0r 10 damage
troll hp:45

Rounds grappling:2

Round 4:
troll regens, troll hp:50
troll attacks and misses

Cleric grapples:8 damage
troll hp:42

Rounds grappling:3

Round 5:
troll regens, troll hp:47
Troll attacks, hitting for 9

Cleric grapples: 10 damage
troll hp:37

Rounds grappling:4

Round 6:
troll regens, troll hp:42
Troll attacks and missies

Cleric grapples: 9
troll hp:33

Rounds grappling:5

Round 7:
party damage begins, 12 damage.
troll hp:21
troll regens, troll hp:26
Troll flees for his life: succeeds, grapple ends.

Cleric reinitiates grapple: 8 damage
troll hp:18

Round 8:
Party damage: 12
troll hp:6
troll regens, troll hp:11
Trolls tries to escape again, realising it's end is near, but fails.

Cleric tries to deal damage but fails(first 11 damage roll)
troll hp:11

Round 9
Party damage:12
troll hp:-1

troll regenerates? troll hp:4
Troll attacks: and hits for 9

Cleric:grapples: no damage

Round 10
Party damage:12
troll hp:-8

troll regenerates? troll hp:-3
dead troll attacks for 8 damage

cleric grapples for 10 damage
troll hp:-13

Round 11
Party damage:12
troll hp:-25

troll regenerates? troll hp:-20
dead troll escapes grapple
Cleric reinitiates grapple: 9 damage
troll hp:-29
Lethal damage:60
1 extra round to completely kill the troll.
K were did that go wrong?
obviously some of the lethal damage didn't get dealt, if Talic points out were then I'll modify accordingly.
Edit2: I just saw Talics post, my progress seems to be correct, yours is wrong.

Edit:
I'll post your mistakes as well.


ROUND 6 (post 56+)
Troll regenerates, 42
Troll attacks, fails
Cleric wins grapple for 9 damage
Troll 28, Cleric 39

Sorry but 42-9=33 not 28



Cleric 23 (without temp. hits only 10!)

I'm not sure if you got the note but temp HP is always the first to go away, so the cleric now has 0 temp HP. Now if you are claiming that the cleric would have been worse off if he hadn't cast Aid, then realise that is just as ridicules as saying that he would have lost several grapple check if he hadn't cast enlarge person. It didn't happen and thus it is irrelevant.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, party damage, just in time....I overlooked that part. I thought it was solo combat that we test here. (and Talic had not answered my question that I did not understand the additional 12 hits taken).

Then, thanks for correcting me - so the troll received even 5 less hits than I calculated, but with several dozens extra damage taken, it does not matter - your calculation in that is certainly correct.

On the temporary hp hit thing - I worded that in a misunderstanding way - your interpretation is correct.

- Giacomo

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Good to have this settled, now let's hope we can find a replacement player.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I've decided to finish this challenge, I will leave Solo's character as it is so that we can continue here, I might want to use the heal though, has anyone recorded how much damage Solo has taken.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I've done it myself, I still want to finish this.

cleric damage:
-7 damage taken
+4 temp HP left
current HP:39

active buffs:
Divine Favour
Bull's Strength
Aid
enlarge

Melee:11 (4 base +5 str +2 DF +1 aid -1 size)
grapple:17(4 base + 5 str +4 impr grapple +4 size)

Because my life's(or better phrased the clerics life) is all about beating this damn lion, that's why I'm cashing in my heal for the regaining of 7 HP.
I'm still working on equipment, but I was wondering if these actions reset the fight or not so I can plan my strategy.


Edit: Solo used aid as 1d8+5 while it should have been 1d8+6, so the cleric has 1 extra temp HP for a total of 47 HP

[Talic]

Considering Lion fight has barely begun, I'm willing to allow a reset of the lion portion of the fight, for use of party heal, equipment cash in. Any other changes will result in resetting the entire thing to fight 1.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

proposed equipment changes:
keep:
full plate
Metamagic Rod Extend Spell, lesser x2
Pear of Power I
currency:(probably ca.)700
minor items I didn't bother to look up the price.

gain:
amulet of natural armour +1
enchant armour+1
enchant weapon+1(light mace)

lose:
Death Knell x3
Bear's Endurance
Pear of Power I x2
currency:450

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I know it didn't end well for Giacomo, but I've decided to go for the obscuring mist tactic, I don't think I can beat this foe head on, but I think I can do it after a buff or three.

So in the surprise round I cast obscuring mist from a scroll.


initiative:[roll0]


BTW: can the luck domain power reroll initiative as well?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I assume I win initiative by virtue of rolling 20 and having a higher modifier.
First I'm casting Shield of Faith fo +3 deflection giving me an AC of 23 and a touch AC of 13(not that it matters much with your + to attack). As I understand rakes are always made against AC so I thought it would be a good idea to boost it.

the battlefield looks like this:

--LL----
--LL----
--------
--------
--------
--------
-MMMM-
MMMMMM
MMCCMM
MMCCMM
MMMMMM
-MMMM-

I move to make it look like this:

--LL----
--LL----
--------
--------
--------
--------
-MMMM-
MMCCMM
MMCCMM
MMMMMM
MMMMMM
-MMMM-

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I've edited the above post, any chance we're going to continue this?