Arcane Attachments

[Talic]

Grapple challenge for Sorceror, level 6 Build, posted by Kurald Galain.

Terms: flat open arena, stone, endless in all directions. Begin 30 feet away from first opponent. You have surprise round, and then initiative is rolled as normal.

1st opponent: A Cloaker. (CR 5)

[Talic]

Encounter initiative: [roll0]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

OOC: unless Kurald Galain tells me to get out of here right now, I'm willing to give it a try, do mind that I never used the form roller before, so I might make some mistakes with them causing a few double posts.

Initiative=[roll0]

I'm casting Enlarge person on myself in the surprise round lasting 60 rounds(do correct me if I'm wrong)

[Fenix_of_Doom]

just noticed ASF:[roll0] more then 5 is a success.

[Talic]

Cloaker readies an action:
Activate Moan: Nausea, if opponent attempts to cast a spell.
Cloaker moves forward 10 feet, shortening the distance between you two to 20 feet.

Turn passes to caster.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

"You are powerless before me foul beast!"

I charge! Touch attack to initiate grapple:[roll0]

assuming success; opposed grapple check:[roll1]


OOC: ready actions always smell like casting interrupt actions to me, so I charged, I hope it was the right decision.

[Talic]

Ah! I was wondering if you'd follow in the cleric's footsteps, and buff.

I see you did not.

Grapple check to resist being grappled: [roll0]

EDIT: It was the right decision... and you have grappled your foe. Per grapple rules, you get unarmed strike damage.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

All right then, unarmed damage: [roll0]

Should I roll damage for armour spikes as well?

[Talic]

umm, I do believe so.

Next: critter's turn, after damage is rolled. Note, spikes are considered an off hand weapon. Damage will be for large weapon, but, as str damage is already added, will not be added again.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

umm, I do believe so.

Next: critter's turn, after damage is rolled. Note, spikes are considered an off hand weapon. Damage will be for large weapon, but, as str damage is already added, will not be added again.
Your message confuses me, I agree it would be silly to let str damage be dealt twice, but how are the spikes off hand? I'm not attacking with them so they're neither off nor main, they're just there. Note that if it were an off had weapon 0.5 strength damage would be added.

anyway armour spike extra damage:[roll0]

I'll await your next action

[Talic]

Your message confuses me, I agree it would be silly to let str damage be dealt twice, but how are the spikes off hand? I'm not attacking with them so they're neither off nor main, they're just there. Note that if it were an off had weapon 0.5 strength damage would be added.

anyway armour spike extra damage:[roll0]

I'll await your next action

Armor spikes are generally considered an off hand weapon, and, I believe are a light weapon. correct in the specific usage being not off hand.

[Talic]

Cloaker has taken 14 damage.

Cloaker action: Attack at a -4 penalty:

[roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

Cloaker turn done.

EDIT: I believe that's 7 damage.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

It is, hp:24(apparently I should have been running around casting buffs)

but I have no choice but to hope I can kill it fast now.

Opposed grapple check:[roll0]
I succesfull, unarmed strik damage:[roll1]
extra spike damage:[roll2]


Edit: epic fail grapple checks:smallfrown: I'm so gonna die.

[Sir Giacomo]

Jumping in with a short comment: Fenix_of_Doom, you appear to be using Grapp, the barbarian grappler, not Pparg, the sorcerer (or is that intended?). In that case, the extra damage from the spike only applies to the initial grapple attack, not subsequent grappling checks imo (although the rules could be interpreted differently, check out the armour spike description).

Note also that in the case of the barbarian, rageing in this setup is not a good idea since you would get fatigued at the end of the encounter you raged.

Anyhow, the sorcerer's unbuffed grappling mod is +11 (which would mean no grappling hold established to begin with).

- Giaocmo

EDIT: and, Fenix_of_Doom, since you like the Schroedinger's X metaphor so much...in normal gameplay you will NOT know whether an opponent has readied a certain action, and certainly not what action keyed to what of your actions.:smallsmile:

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Dear Giacomo, first I must request that in the future you post these kind of messages in the OOC discussion thread so we can keep this one clean.

And no, I'm using the sorcerer, why else would I cast a spell and roll for ASF?
I am however trusting Kurald Galainon the calculations, so I will double check them if it makes you feel better, but I'm pretty sure they're all right.

I've read the armour spikes section, it says you can deal extra damage in a grapple, when or how is not clearly defined. However if you picture someone with spiked armour wrestling, do you think the spikes will only hurt at the start or during the entire time the wrestling is going on?
Also may I remind you that flurrying in a grapple is not possible per RAW, so I'd take it easy on the rules if I were you.

Edit:

Armor Spikes(relavent part)

You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a -4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them.
The first bolded section tells you they deal extra damage in a grapple attack, it's unclear whether that is the attack at -4 option or the grapple to damage option, the second part suggests that they certainly do extra damage if you try to grapple for damage, it's still unclear what would happen if I'd make an attack at -4.


On normal gameplay, I guess that depends on the group, however I can imagine that seeing some creature holding something back can be noticed.
On the keyed action, I didn't know but I could guess, I've read the spoilered text, but only after the round was finished.

Edit I did the grapple math, note that I am buffed, I cast enlarge person(58 rounds left) so that gives me a +16 modifier.

[Talic]

I post creature readied actions visible because there's grounds that they are. A creature could be construed as visibly tensing, as if preparing for something, or waiting.

Grapple Spikes apply to any grapple check to deal damage. Because nonproficiency gives a -4 to grapple checks when using the spikes, it seems fairly straightforward that the spikes are used with grapple checks. When making an attack in a grapple, it's not a grapple attack. It's a standard melee attack, at a -4 penalty.

Now that that's resolved...

[Talic]

Grapple check to resist damage: [roll0]

Regardless of outcome, the creature will use an ability:

Moan (Fear). Make a DC15 will save or be panicked for 2 rounds.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

"ARgh what an awful sound"

Will save vs DC 15:[roll0]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

OOC: I haven't abandoned all hope yet, I shall try again! The epic failure with my rolls has to end sometime.

Opposed grapple check for damage:[roll0]

if successful,
Unarmed strike damage:[roll1]
Extra Spiked damage:[roll2]

Edit: *sigh* if my grapple roll doesn't fail me then my damage roll does, say I can't exchange these results with the one made above can I? no? really? arg dammit.

[Talic]

Resist roll:

15% chance of stopping that check... Let's see what happens.

Edit: Failure, as expected. 10 more damage, cloaker has taken 24.

Cloaker: grapple check to pin: [roll]1d20+13

[Talic]

[roll0]

For the broken roll.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Assuming we're not allowing the readied action tricks, I'm just resisting the pin and see were I'm going from there.

Resist pin:[roll]1d20+16[roll]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

oops
Resist pin:[roll0]


Escaping the pin is pointless, so I ready an action anyway.

Trigger: Cloaker attacks me
action: grapple for damage

[Talic]

Next round, pin ends.

Cloaker makes an attack at -4.

Attack: [roll0]
If hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Readied action triggers:
Opposed grapple check for damage:[roll0]
if successful:
gauntlet:[roll1]
spike:[roll2]

HP:14
active spells: enlarge person (54 rounds left)
ooc:I'll see how this goes and then decide on my next action

[Talic]

Resist Check: [roll0]

Edit: 21 > 14, troll takes damage.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Edit: 21 > 14, troll takes damage.

You mean cloaker:smallbiggrin:
It's been a while hasn't it.

Anyway the only option I have is to try and kill the cloaker ASAP before it kills me and then pray I win initiative against the troll, if I manage that then I think I have a chance.

Opposed grapple check for damage:[roll0]
if successful:
gauntlet:[roll1]
spike:[roll2]

Edit: if successful then the cloaker has taken 49 damage, is that enough?

[Talic]

Troll Cloaker (heh) took 12 damage last round, and stands to take another 12 this round, barring a nat 20, which will put it to 49 damage, putting it under.

Resist Check: [roll0]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Troll Cloaker (heh) took 12 damage last round, and stands to take another 12 this round, barring a nat 20, which will put it to 49 damage, putting it under.

Resist Check: [roll0]

you mean another 13 this round, anyway, I'm going to take some time to consider whether I want my full heal now or not.

as for mitigating factors: I was fighting at half WBL with a character that wasn't mine, I'm confident I will do better next fight.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well I've pondered it for a while, ran some calculations and made a few estimates on how much HP I will be losing in the 3-4 upcoming combats, I've come to the conclusion I can't "waste" my heal here for 14 HP.
This will mean however that I'm going have to cast every single buff I have, so ASF may become a hazard and I also NEED to win initiative.
I will be running away a lot, I also hope we can fast forward through that(as in I detail everything I want to do in one post).

[Talic]

I have counters to running, so it'll need to be played out. At least until we determine that the next opponent cannot engage you. From that point, actions may be sped up, provided you act in a manner which continues to leave the next creature unable to engage.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I have counters to running, so it'll need to be played out. At least until we determine that the next opponent cannot engage you. From that point, actions may be sped up, provided you act in a manner which continues to leave the next creature unable to engage.

Well I don't have fly on my spell list(a spell that I myself would have considered, as heroism isn't that great IMO) so I'm not sure if I can run, I do know it's my only choice and that with expeditious retreat, I've got a good chance.

So can we get started then, you haven't announced my opponent yet, but as I've read the other threads I know what's coming.

I also hereby assume my changed version of the character has been approved.

So In my surprise round:
expeditious retreat
ASF:[roll0]5 or less is a failure
Initiative:[roll1]

edit: K that initiative isn't bad, now do me a favour and don't roll too high yourself:smallsmile:

Edit2: I was bored and did some calculations
I have about 40% chance of not winning initiative,
If I fail initiative I have a 34% chance of being grappled
so that means I have 13.6% chance of failing and a 40% of getting in a difficult situation.

[Talic]

Note that, being enlarged, and, having acted in the surprise round, the monster will never be able to grapple without provoking an AoO, without Improved Grab or Improved Grapple.

Graar! Troll is 30 feet from you. You cast your expeditious retreat. This raises your movement to 60 feet. That ensures that the troll cannot catch up to you without denying himself the ability to take AOO's. Provided player wins initiative, and maintains a distance of 75' or greater (60 foot move + 10 foot reach), you may fast forward moves, up to the point of including all non-offensive (buff) actions. If troll has greater initiative, it could be a very different story.

Troll initiative: [roll0]

EDIT: Troll does.

[Talic]

Round 1: Full Round: Troll Charges to 10 feet and makes a touch attack to grapple. This provokes an Attack of Opportunity.

Assuming that misses, The following is valid:

Touch Attack: [roll0]
If Hit, Grapple: [roll]1d20+14[roll]
If Successful, Damage: [roll1]

[Talic]

Grapple check broken: [roll0]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I forgot about the AOO, thanks for the reminder.
attacking with armour spikes: [roll0]
if hit:[roll1]

BTW my movement is 70 feet, 30 base, 30 expeditious, 10 enlarge.


Edit that's a hit, awful damage though, but that's okay, it will have been healed by regenerate at the time I fight him anyway.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

So I guess I'll try to run now, first 5 feet are at half speed with a tumble[roll0] the 60 feet normal speed and another 70 feet normal move to put me 145 feet away from the troll.

well that's a AOO for me as well, for reference new AC:15
which is a whole point better the it used to be.

[Talic]

Well, here's the AoO: Grapple attempt:

You're running, which denies you your dex to AC, and renders you unable to take AoO's.

Touch: [roll0]
If hit, Grapple: [roll1]
If success, damage: [roll2]

Provided I hit, there's one more shot you have of fighting your way free, in the form of a grapple check. Let's see how it goes.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well, here's the AoO: Grapple attempt:

You're running, which denies you your dex to AC, and renders you unable to take AoO's.


No I'm not running, I'm taking a double move, running is 4X speed, I was not aware I could run and tumble.

I assume your action remains the same, if not ignore these rolls
attacking with armour spikes: [roll0]
if hit:[roll1]

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Miss, to bad, well one more shot: resist grapple[roll0]

Edit: So I'm at 4 HP. your turn

[Talic]

It does remain the same. Attempt to grab you, which is the M.O. for the troll in all encounters.

Attack, -4 penalty: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

Edit: Wow. A string of horrible rolls for you and good ones for the troll ends your streak at round 1, match 2, to a 19 damage critical hit.

Edit 2: If you'd care to run the cleric, we do have a spot open there. I believe you'll find that it has higher AC and more ways to recover HP. As it's the start of the Dire Lion fight for him, you'll skip the troll, but you'll get the opportunity to use party healing if you need it, and exchange gear if you need it.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well, I have the feeling that if I don't do it nobody will so I'd be willing to take over, however I'll need some time to prevent the same mistakes I made with the sorcerer and I'll be going on a trip soon, so it could take a while before I actually start.

[Talic]

Mmk.

IMO, Best offense for this type of combat is either high attack bonus OR high grapple.

Best defense is high ac AND high grapple.

So it makes sense that a high AC/High Grapple would be good.

Obviously, with damage, more is better. You could sacrifice attack bonus if you liked for it, if grapple is dealing damage, rather than attack rolls. However, attack bonus and grapple checks are pretty closely related, with the notable exception of size modifiers. Size increases have the benefit of upping damage, and the down of lowering AC. Usually a fair trade, since it's also boosting grapple check. In the end, it basically trades a bit of defense for quite a bit of offense.

Next on the list is mobility. Getting to the opponent quickly is nice.

After that is HP. After all, every so often, your opponent will get lucky. HP are your safety net.