Giarillas in the Mist

[Talic]

Grapple challenge for Monk, level 6 build, posted by Sir Giacomo.

Terms: flat open arena, stone, endless in all directions. Begin 30 feet away from first opponent. You have surprise round, and then initiative is rolled as normal.

1st opponent: A Cloaker. (CR 5)

[Sir Giacomo]

Wow, a surprise round vs a cloaker! Not a common occurance...
Apparently it is also reachable on the ground (and not yet flying, or flying within the monk's 20ft grapple reach - 10ft size, 10ft reach).

So, THE FOG in the surprise round does a partial charge to grapple (touch attack) vs the...thing. (as an aside, the monk could have done this partial grapple charge from double the distance away, or up to 60ft. Similarly, he might have grappled a flying foe within 30ft of the ground with a jump check).
Note that he can keep his spiked chain in his hands while grappling.
Then he does a grapple check, plus potential damage.
Either he now occupies the same square(s) as the cloaker, or he ends up in an adjacant square 5ft away. His AC then would be 12 (-2 from the partial charge).
After that, initiative is rolled.

1d20+12

[roll1]

[roll2]

[roll3]

[Sir Giacomo]

Arg, two things somehow got warped in the transmission.

The first is the attack roll, which I try again. The second - if that's still allowed to add - a tumble check to avoid any AoO while closing in with that strange creature. The high move of the monk allows him to cut the charge distance by one half for tumbling (the tumble check DC 15 is made automatically, so no roll here).
Note: likely the monk, from the completely alien movements of that thing does not even know who won initiative or who has the surprise round.

[roll0]

[Talic]

For future reference, explain roll errors rather than erasing them. Post counts not matching database information could raise perceptions of impropriety. Also, commentary is less needed than success.

Grapple check to avoid grapple: [roll0]

Encounter Initiative: [roll1]

Edit: Creature is grappled, sustains 16 damage. Remaining HP: 29

[Talic]

Cloaker wins initiative.

Round 1: Cloaker action.

Standard: Activate Extraordinary Ability: Moan. -Fear effect

Requires DC 15 Will save, or gain the Panicked status condition for 2 rounds.

EDIT: Grapple mod incorrect in above post, should only be +13. No impact in result, monk wins grapple either way.

[Talic]

In addition, no tumble check is required while closing. Your reach is equal to the creature's, as you are large.

In the event that you would, a simple rule shall be used. When you announce the action, you announce all facets of the action. If you fail to do so, any parts not announced were not performed. This includes tumble. I.E. If you don't say, at the time you announce your move, that you are tumbling, you are not.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

two comments:
- yep, will try to keep everything that THE FOG does in one post. Yesterday I appear to have posted it just prior/during the time the server was down for 12 hours or more, so it may have been warped by that (I had to wait around 5 minutes for that last post). Once a roll is failed, I'll just re-roll it in another post, I guess (I think it's impossible for me to edit a roll once rolled).
- I also noticed that I forgot to deduct the -1 to the touch attack roll for being large; but in this case likewise it would not have mattered.

Now for the actions of THE FOG.
First, the saving throw vs fear (at +9).

In case he fails the saving throw, he'll drop his spiked chain and flee; tumbling at -2 (as per shaken) to avoid AoO in his first movement slot, then using the other 3 movement (of the movement x4) to get a total of 175ft away from the...thing.:smallbiggrin:
[roll0]

In case he makes the saving throw, he'll flurry his grapple vs the cloaker (note that he'll not try to pin, since that thing is too alien to assume it can speak and do something useful with that like spellcasting).

[roll1]

[roll2]

[roll3]

[roll4]

[Sir Giacomo]

And of course I forgot something important...the saving throw! ARg!

[roll0]

[Talic]

1st. If you failed your save, you would have been required to make a grapple check to escape, prior to tumbling, as you are currently grappled. That said:

Grapple checks:

Grapple check 1: Auto-fail

Grapple check 2: [roll0]

[Talic]

Both checks Fail. creature takes 32 damage. Creature is downed.

Time taken: surprise round, round 1.

Relevant mitigating factors:
Player had a statistically higher than average grapple success rate

Relevant beneficial factors:
reach of player negated reach of creature
Higher grapple mod results in 66% success rate of grapple checks.
Damage potential capable of defeating creature in 3 hits, on average.

Misc Factors:
While success rate was high, the number of successful damaging strikes was exactly par.
Giacomo mistakenly rationalized that the creature would be unable to use its voice for anything, on the action after the creature did an attack that relied on its ability to speak (moan).

EDIT: Congratulations on the first victory.

Second Challenge appears immediately: A Troll. 30 feet away. As typical, player has surprise round, followed by initiative.

[Sir Giacomo]

Great!

(note: the joker monk with his grapple mod of +15 would also have stood a good chance, with even a better will save. Only the enlarge effect would have had only a 50% chance to get up; so likely a horn of fog is also a good idea for the joker monk - will likely update that soon)

Now for the troll...probably using same procedure...

Partial charge. In case the troll is armed with a reach weapon, tumbling to charge (auto-success).

[roll0]

[roll1]

[roll2]

[roll3]

[Sir Giacomo]

oops...fumble...good luck ends it seems...:smallsmile:

[Talic]

Troll Initiative: [roll0]

[Talic]

Incidentally, I will announce any weapons or other mitigating factors that are plainly visible, such as spears, and the like.

Troll Wins initiative.

Partial charge ended you at 10 feet distance. Current range between troll and you is 10 feet. Up side: ending while threatening creature mitigates enemy ability to engage other party members, in a real situation.

Troll Performs Full Attack.

Touch Attack to grapple (I am not required to, but First couple rounds are being treated as warmups for players... Don't want to end a challenge too early): [roll0]

If hits, Grapple Check: [roll1]

If Success, Damage: [roll2]
Damage is for an unarmed strike, not a claw attack.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm- I think a monster's grappling damage is derived from its claw/arms appendices (i.e. its natural attack damage is used).

But anyhow,

[roll0]

Then, on his turn, THE FOG attempts flurry full attack to grapple and pin.

[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

Then, if first grapple was successful, use only the grapple check of this 2nd attempt for pinning (and not doing damage). Otherwise, try to establish hold and damage.
[roll4]
[roll5]
[roll6]

[Talic]

Damage is listed as being equivalent to an unarmed strike, for entry in a grapple. It would use the attack in a grapple action to deal damage equal to natural attack.

That said, you failed grapple check versus troll, so you take the listed damage.

This obviates your need for a touch attack to initiate, removing the 1st action from your list. If acceptable, grapple action 1 will be used to deal damage, and moved to 2nd action. If 1st pin fails, grapple action 1 will be used as a 2nd pin attempt. Will spoiler opposed rolls below. If the above modification sounds good, look in spoiler. Otherwise, announce amended action, and spoilered rolls will apply to that.

You've taken 7 damage, and are reduced from 42 hp to 35 hp.

[Talic]

spoilered rolls:1st grapple check needed in the round: [roll0]

2nd grapple check needed in the round: [roll1]

Edit: If proposed action above is accepted, then troll will take 16 nonlethal damage, and be pinned. This will reduce troll from 63hp, no nonlethal damage, to 63 hp, with 16 nonlethal damage.

[Solo]

For future reference, explain roll errors rather than erasing them. Post counts not matching database information could raise perceptions of impropriety.
They do. They really, really do.

[Talic]

The above fight went more or less par for course. Mitigating factors are added in, at the end. I don't see any major issue with a creature that was just plain outclassed by any serious entry. That's why it was entry 1.

I'd ask him to put in a [roll0] in the thread to see what the original roll was (roll 0 is the missing roll), if it were a later match, but the overall impact of that roll is minimal. In later rounds, the point is established, and that is sufficient.

[Talic]

Please note: Information is needed from Giacomo to continue. I need either his acceptance of my proposed amendment to his action, or an amended action himself to account for the fact that his first listed action is not possible, considering he was currently in a grapple when he took it, and thus cannot initiate one.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

sorry for the delay.

Accept the action interpretation above (forgot that I already was in a grapple). So troll is pinned after the end of the first round.

I'll already roll a grapple check vs the troll's likely attempt to escape from the pin in round 2:

[roll0]

[Talic]

Troll readies an action.

Attack when he's not pinned.

Your turn begins. Pin ends (lasts for 1 round, per grapple rules. This expires at the beginning of your action, like all effects with measured duration, and has been confirmed in the Simple RAW thread previously.)

This triggers the troll's readied action, to attack when not pinned.

[roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll3]

I hope this illustrates a fundamental flaw in the grapple system. Simply put, if a creature only gets 1 attack, it is impossible to prevent it from using that attack, via pinning. Similarly, it is impossible to prevent a mage from being able to cast in a grapple via pin, with the same readied action technique.

At best, pinning can reduce a multi-attacking creature (such as a fighter or monk) to one attack, or take away the highest 1 or 2 bab swings. It can prevent a caster from getting a spell component (require a full round action for that). But it cannot prevent any standard action, simply because the pinned character can simply ready an action for the moment your pin always slips each round, between the start of your action, and your first pin attempt.

[Sir Giacomo]

Sorry, Talic, but you seem to be misinterpreting something here.

The pin lasts for 1 round, true. So it lasts until it is the monk's next turn. Meanwhile, the troll on his turn has the option to escape the pin (with a grapple check), but otherwise it cannot do a thing. But it cannot ready an action to attack as long as it is still in a pin.

On the monk's turn, he must, of course, maintain the pin with an opposed grapple check.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Incorrect. Pinning does not cover what actions you may not do, other than being held immobile. Thus, any action which requires movement is barred. Actions which do not require movement, including delaying and ready, are fine, assuming we are not following the absolute strictest interpretation of the grapple rules.

Under the strictest interpretation of what may be done in a grapple, you are correct. Under that interpretation, however, you cannot flurry in a grapple, nor may you two weapon fight, or gain additional attacks from haste weapons.

If all abilities not specifically allowed are barred, then every flurry you have done is illegal. If not, then actions which do not require movement are allowed in a pin.

From an RAI perspective, this works as well, as preparing to do something is not, in and of itself, doing anything.

So how about it? Rewind to your first action where you flurried, and disallow flurry? Or continue on, under the impression that actions which do not require movement are allowed to an immobile opponent? The two fall under the same level of strictness. How strict do you want to be, here?

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm...while your reference to movement confuses me even more, I'll try to explain what happens when you ready a standard action to escape a pin.

Basically, the monk on his turn pinned the troll for 1 round.

In no case the troll can simply ready an action to attack to the moment the pin ends, because at that point it's the monk's turn (remember that the pin lasts 1 round) and the monk gets his grapple flurry checks first. The troll basically has to decide when to ready his action to try to escape the pin - before or after the monk's action.

If the troll readies just before the monk tries to pin him again on the monk's turn.then the troll is still pinned! He still has to escape the pin first with a standard action to do anything. And the most you can do with the ready action thing is to ready a standard action. Nothing gained for the troll in this case.

In case the troll readies the action to after the monk's next turn, he likely is still pinned, since the monk can flurry again his pin attempts for another round, before the troll's readied action sets in (this way, btw, he loses one round of a chance to escape the pin).

This is actually (apart from neutering all spellcasting with components for 1 round) the great thing about pinning and having more grapple attempts or better grapple attempts: you force your opponent to always waste their best grapple attempt (if they even have more than one) to escape the pin, instead of getting a chance to deal damage.

This way, the monk has a great durability in grappling contests only.

So, the troll still has to do his escape grapple thing.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Hmmm...while your reference to movement confuses me even more, I'll try to explain what happens when you ready a standard action to escape a pin.

Basically, the monk on his turn pinned the troll for 1 round.

In no case the troll can simply ready an action to attack to the moment the pin ends, because at that point it's the monk's turn (remember that the pin lasts 1 round) and the monk gets his grapple flurry checks first. The troll basically has to decide when to ready his action to try to escape the pin - before or after the monk's action.

If the troll readies just before the monk tries to pin him again on the monk's turn.then the troll is still pinned! He still has to escape the pin first with a standard action to do anything. And the most you can do with the ready action thing is to ready a standard action. Nothing gained for the troll in this case.

Wrong. Readied actions interrupt the normal flow of a turn. They are much like attacks of opportunity, in this regard. They occur immediately when the trigger occurs. For example, if a character readies an action to attack if they are attacked, and you attack them during your turn, the action resolves during your turn, before your attack.

If a character readies an action to attack if he is not pinned, and he becomes not pinned, for whatever reason, he interrupts the flow of the turn, and performs his action.

Thus, the troll gets an action after your turn begins, but before you can take your first action.

Other triggers that react in this way would include, "if you attempt to pin the troll", which would only take effect if you pinned, but would interrupt your action, "if you performed any of the actions listed in the grapple section of the SRD" which would affect more.

I think the misunderstanding comes from an misconception on the uses of readied actions, but believe me, they do occur DURING the turn of the triggering player. And your turn is the triggering one.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm...I admit, it's not quite straightforward.

The relevent line of the ready action rules is probably this one (bold emphasis mine):

SRD: The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

So, the troll readies the action to the situation when the monk is just about to renew the pin (with his first flurried grapple check). However, just BEFORE that, the pin of the previous round is still active. Therefore, the only thing the troll can do is try to escape the pin, nothing else.
It's basically as if you intend to interrupt a wizard casting a spell with an attack. If until said wizard tries to cast a spell you are under the effect of a hold person or bound in some other form (say, someone else pins you), you simply cannot do your action in the way you intend.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

You are under the impression that the time your turn starts and the time you perform your first attack are simultaneous.

However, they are not. First, beginning of turn effects occur, then you announce your action to attack, then you make your attack roll, incurring any normal penalties for doing so, or benefits. There are many things that can happen during your turn, before your first action.

Also, you ended your quote 1 or 2 lines early:

SRD: If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

It happens before your action, not before your turn. That is because it interrupts your turn. After the attack occurs, you continue your actions.

But you are the impetus for the start of the attack, thus, it interrupts your turn. It does not, however, precede it. It does, however, precede the trigger. In this instance, while the trigger is on your turn, it does not start it. And, provided the attack is not before your turn, then the duration of the pin is over.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm...

Where in the SRD or core rules does it say that there is some time between the start of your turn and your first attack? I can't think of any passage here. It may be like that in the magic card game, but not in DD 3.5.

Yes, a readied action interrupts what is going on BEFORE the other character takes his TURN (which in this case is started with a grapple check). However, at that point, the troll is still pinned, so he gains nothing.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Simple.

If the readied action is in response to another player's activities, it interrupts that player.

This is in response to your activities. Specifically, your turn, and an effect which occurs during it, related to a previous action you took (pinning).

Thus, this interrupts you.

You cannot interrupt someone before they start. Thus, your turn must have already begun.

[Sir Giacomo]

That's the whole point about interrupting someone. You interrupt and the rules say that interrupt happens before the other character acts.
The troll in this example wants to interrupt the start of the monk's turn (when the monk flurries his grapple). Meaning at that moment it is still pinned and can't attack at -4.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

That's the whole point about interrupting someone. You interrupt and the rules say that interrupt happens before the other character acts.
The troll in this example wants to interrupt the start of the monk's turn (when the monk flurries his grapple). Meaning at that moment it is still pinned and can't attack at -4.

- Giacomo

Ok, went hardcore into durations and turns.

The trigger is "when not pinned". Pinning is an effect generated by you, that has a duration based on your actions.

Duration of it ends immediately before your turn begins.


Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

Technically, by strict RAW, you are correct. If you ready an action to fire when a door opens, you shoot the closed door. If you ready an action to fire when someone steps into view in the doorway, you fire before they moved into the doorway.

I'll give it to you, on grounds that it's by the most strict and non-intuitive interpretation, correct. Bear in mind, though... There is one thing that is clear.

If a creature readies an action to be in response to your first action, that is ON your initiative count, but before your action. That puts it after the duration of a pinning ends (which ends on the initiative count before your turn begins). Thus, the technique still works, with the proper trigger. The improper trigger was just used.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, Talic, two points I have to make at this point:

1) Pinning is, I guess, not meant to be negated by the ready action rule (otherwise its use would be extremely limited). So far the RAI.
On the RAW again: (as you admit), the readied action happens BEFORE what the pinning opponent does in his next round (so the pin is still active). Similarly, the turn of the monk starts ON his initiative count and his next grapple check(s) start RIGHT AWAY, EXACTLY on that initiative count. There simply is no time between "start of initiative count, i.e. the monk's turn" and "the first action the monk takes on his turn".
Normally, this is no problem. You interrupt someone before they try to move through a door. You slam the door into their face when they want to enter the room. You disrupt a spellcaster with a readied spiked chain attack/arrow/what ever. However, in this case there is an ONGOING effect carried over from the last round, and once you try to interrupt the pinner's NEXT action, you're still under the effect of the pin. It's actually quite simple.

2) Given that Kurald Galain's sorcerer grapple build never even tried to do the test (likely was once again intended to be funny only :smallsigh:) and Solo can't continue, I'd say we call it an end here. Up to this point, THE FOG monk build was superior by far, and I do not see this changing (higher grapple check than the cleric, less damage taken, more no. of grapple attempts, more durable buff, better saves). It would have been interesting to see how far such a monk could go, but in the build I already listed the few CR 1-6 creatures (gargantuan size and up) that he could not grapple. Those are not that common in regular gameplay, I dare say.
Now, what I'd ADMIT is that a barbarian grappler with permancenie'd enlarge would have had some advantages over THE FOG (although doing less damage, and only at lvls 6&7 with the same no- of grapple attempts). But such a barbarian build, having to raise the DEX much higher, would have been lacking in other departments (for instance, also lacking improved trip).

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Cleric has self healing. Cleric also has damage reducers.

Further, if there is no time between the start of initiative count and a player's turn, explain this one:

3 creatures get in a fight.

Creature 1 rolls a 12.
Creature 2 rolls a 15.

Creature 2 readies an action to grapple if a creature enters range.
Which creature 1 triggers. Creature 3 grapples, succeeds. Creature 2's initiative becomes 12, immediately before creature 1.
Creature 1 pins creature 2.

Round 2:
Initiative 13 comes around, pin ends.
Creature 2 is no longer pinned, makes an attack.
Creature 1, who pinned, sees no benefit from his pin because start of initiative count does not equal start of turn. Obviously there was enough time between the start of the initiative and creature 2's turn, as an entire player took a turn.

It is intuitive? No.
Is it common sense? No.
Is it RAW? YES.

We are going by RAW. This means that any object not concealed can be seen at any distance, as it cannot hide, and there are no limits to the range of vision. This means that not everything is common sense. But that's D&D. RAW rarely equals common sense.

That said, Azerion's mage is being played.

[Sir Giacomo]

Cleric has self healing. Cleric also has damage reducers.

OK, let's see how this plays out, although it remains a question of time imo (plus the encounters in a row, with a round in between for healing is VERY convenient for spellcasters or even the joker monk imo).
Note that I still do not see how the troll was beaten by the cleric (because you assigned damage to the troll - 12 even - in rounds where the cleric failed to beat the grapple check of the troll, and forgot some regeneration instances for the troll).


Further, if there is no time between the start of initiative count and a player's turn, explain this one:

3 creatures get in a fight.

Creature 1 rolls a 12.
Creature 2 rolls a 15.

Creature 2 readies an action to grapple if a creature enters range.
Which creature 1 triggers. Creature 3 grapples, succeeds. Creature 2's initiative becomes 12, immediately before creature 1.
Creature 1 pins creature 2.

Round 2:
Initiative 13 comes around, pin ends.
Creature 2 is no longer pinned, makes an attack.
Creature 1, who pinned, sees no benefit from his pin because start of initiative count does not equal start of turn. Obviously there was enough time between the start of the initiative and creature 2's turn, as an entire player took a turn.

It is intuitive? No.
Is it common sense? No.
Is it RAW? YES.

We are going by RAW. This means that any object not concealed can be seen at any distance, as it cannot hide, and there are no limits to the range of vision. This means that not everything is common sense. But that's D&D. RAW rarely equals common sense.

Luckily, in this case RAW equals common sense, and I can't understand why you do not wish to see it apparently.
The 2nd round initiative of creature one that pinned in the 1st round is 12
(unchanged from round 1), not 13. That should answer your question. No matter what kind of example you choose, the pin is ONLY ended once the next turn of the pinning creature starts, not before. And it starts with its grapple check. You interrupt that with a ready action, and you go just before that creature when the pin is still active.


That said, Azerion's mage is being played.

Ah, am looking forward to follow that. His mage had even less of a chance than Solo's cleric.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Luckily, in this case RAW equals common sense, and I can't understand why you do not wish to see it apparently.
The 2nd round initiative of creature one that pinned in the 1st round is 12
(unchanged from round 1), not 13. That should answer your question. No matter what kind of example you choose, the pin is ONLY ended once the next turn of the pinning creature starts, not before. And it starts with its grapple check. You interrupt that with a ready action, and you go just before that creature when the pin is still active.WRONG. PER SRD:

Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.Thus, if a creature begins a grapple on initiative count 12, it ends just before initiative count 12. That would be initiative count 13 (at the end of any characters that act on that count). Thus, no matter where on initiative count 12 you fall, if someone else grapples you on that count, the grapple ends immediately before the entire count. Thus, due to timing, you are wrong. There obviously can be time between the start of an initiative count and a player's first action, as entire players can take turns on that count, before you. There obviously can be situations where someone can pin you, and the pin have no impact on your turn, because RAW says so. If you don't like that, then you have a problem with the RAW, not with me. I'm interpreting this RAW, with the one exception of allowing flurry in grapple. Discussion over.


Ah, am looking forward to follow that. His mage had even less of a chance than Solo's cleric.

- Giacomo
Well, it certainly doesn't help that every grapple check he's rolled has been a nat 1. That's certainly a mitigating factor.

Now, all this aside... Troll readied action triggers, but fails automatically when attempted. Troll's initiative changes to equal yours, acting just before you. Continue your turn.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi Talic,

OK, I give up to convince you - it is your test after all, so you have the final call here.

Since you did not insist that the troll hit on his readying turn, I also drop the idea that instead of the pin (now a useless strategy for a grappler), the monk would have simply done damage in the first round.

So I'll simply continue:
2nd round
Troll regenerates 5 hits
The Fog monk (35 hits) attacks in a flurry (btw, all damage rolls are henceforth assumed to be lethal damage)
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

- Giacomo

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I'd hat to interrupt now that the fight has just started again, but... what's up with posts 15,16 and 17, I'll just quote spoiler them for easy reference and add in the roll results.


Hmm- I think a monster's grappling damage is derived from its claw/arms appendices (i.e. its natural attack damage is used).

But anyhow,

[roll0]

Then, on his turn, THE FOG attempts flurry full attack to grapple and pin.
Grapple check vs troll - (1d20+18)[24]

Then, on his turn, THE FOG attempts flurry full attack to grapple and pin.

Grapple touch attack 1 - (1d20+9)[17]
Grapple check 1 - (1d20+17)[21]
Grapple damage 1 - (3d6+6)[16]

Then, if first grapple was successful, use only the grapple check of this 2nd attempt for pinning (and not doing damage). Otherwise, try to establish hold and damage.
Grapple touch attack 2 - (1d20+9)[23]
Grapple check 2 for either damage or pin - (1d20+17)[32]
Grapple damage 2 - (3d6+6)[15]


Damage is listed as being equivalent to an unarmed strike, for entry in a grapple. It would use the attack in a grapple action to deal damage equal to natural attack.

That said, you failed grapple check versus troll, so you take the listed damage.

This obviates your need for a touch attack to initiate, removing the 1st action from your list. If acceptable, grapple action 1 will be used to deal damage, and moved to 2nd action. If 1st pin fails, grapple action 1 will be used as a 2nd pin attempt. Will spoiler opposed rolls below. If the above modification sounds good, look in spoiler. Otherwise, announce amended action, and spoilered rolls will apply to that.

You've taken 7 damage, and are reduced from 42 hp to 35 hp.


spoilered rolls:1st grapple check needed in the 1st grapple check needed in the round: (1d20+14)[29]

2nd grapple check needed in the round: (1d20+14)[26]

Edit: If proposed action above is accepted, then troll will take 16 nonlethal damage, and be pinned. This will reduce troll from 63hp, no nonlethal damage, to 63 hp, with 16 nonlethal damage.



No matter how you look at it 29 and 26 are both higher than 21 so either the troll has taken no damage or the troll was never pinned in the first place.

[Sir Giacomo]

True! I guess there was no good roll so far for the monk in this contest. I do not know why Talic spoilered that the troll has taken damage. He has not (so he does not need to regenerate).
And likely it'll not take any damage from these horrible second round grapplings, either.
We'll see how this develops further, so far the fog monk looks OK.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Absolutely correct, I'm not sure how that got by me. If you'd like to reverse play to the point following the error, we can do that.

If the troll wasn't successfully pinned, then the readied action to attack when not pinned is completely nonsensical, and would most likely just be an attack. Best I can see, the attack would have hit, for 11 damage, however, it's perfectly reasonable to reverse to the turn of the troll, following the unsuccessful pin.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again,

well, Talic, I guess it is best we simply continue with what we have. So the monk takes 7 damage from round 1, then in the 2nd round the troll still has to oppose the two (awful) grapple checks of the monk, then the troll did his 11 damage attack.
So the monk is down to 24 hit points.

Round 3 monk actions:
Flurry! (what else? :smallsmile:)
1d20+17
3d6+6
1d20+17
3d6+6

Note: Probably I'll then shuffle the equipment somewhat prior to combat 3. I take it that no actions can be done between the encounters apart from what is offered in the surprise round?

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Darn!

The rolls did not work.
OK, again:
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Grapple check 1 succeeds for 22 nonlethal damage. (troll can achieve a maximum of 34 if he rolls a 20, which is 2 lower than he needs).

Opposed grapple for 2nd grapple: [roll0]

Edit: Troll Success. No additional damage, beyond the 22.

Exchange of equipment and healing are the only options available between encounters. Bear in mind, equipment exchange is a 1 time thing. Healing may be done once per CR shift, between encounters.

No other actions may be taken during that time.

[Talic]

Troll Action:
Heals 5 nonlethal damage.
Troll HP: 63, 17 nonlethal.

Grapple Action: Attack, -4 penalty.

Attack:
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [ro'l]1d20+5
If Crit: [roll2]

This concludes the troll's action.

EDIT: Roll 3 broken, but irrelevant, as the initial roll did not threaten.
Unless I'm horribly mistaken, the attack misses.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

looks OK - could you do the 2nd round opposed grapple checks vs the monk's grapples? They were very meagre, though, but you never know...:smallbiggrin:
Ah, and could we keep the whole damage lethal? The improved unarmed strike feat allows it. And I do not think the monk wishes to only subdue the troll, and if the party arrives at some time as for the cleric, then we'll not get confused between lethal and non-lethal damage.

Anyhow, 4th round, hoping for better luck at long last...

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Vs DC 23: [roll0]
Vs DC 20: [roll1]

Edit: 35 addl nonlethal damage. Before another roll is caught up, I am going to get a verification from all involved players that EVERY ROLL UP TO THIS POINT IS MADE. After verification, then posts 1-44 will be set in stone, and any incomplete grapple attacks will be considered automatic failures. Post 45 is the current attack, and will be rolled AFTER this verification is done.

I'm frankly rather tired of going back 5 or 10 or 20 posts to correct an oversight that should have been corrected when made. Further, when listing such delinquent rolls, including a post number GREATLY reduces the work involved in correcting it. Useful, considering how disorganized this thread has become. From this point on, that disorganization ends. List actions, make actions. Any non-turn related text, give a heading and spoiler. Keeps everything clean and organized.

I'm sure we can both agree that the lack of order in the thread makes it a bit more difficult to follow.

Example:

Previous attack puts Cloaker at -9 hp.
Combat 1 complete; time elapsed, 2 rounds + surprise round.

Mitigating Factors:For: Blah blah blah

Against: Blah Blah Blah

Rules Clarification:Blah Blah

Readied Action Dispute:More Blah

My take on Balance of the Encounter:More Blah

End example.

Everything above is pretty clear and easy to follow and find. Makes getting to relevant information easy, and makes it easier to reference later.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi Talic,

the thread in the posts so far look OK to me (including that for the purpose of this combat, I accept that pin is no use vs readied actions). Ah, and forget about my lethal damage stuff - overlooked the regeneration properties to turn any damage into non-lethal one.

Otherwise back to the troll grappling match at the beginning of round four:
Troll should be now at 63 hp, 47 non-lethal (regenerated from its turn in round 2 and 3).
Monk at 24 hp.
Should I re-roll the grapple checks of round 4 or are they OK as they are?

- Giacomo

[Talic]

No, they're fine. All moves from post 1-44 are final. No more of these shenanigans from either of us.

Grapple defense, for round 4 grapples in post 44.

Roll 1 (vs 31): [roll0]
Roll 2 (vs 22): [roll1]

[Talic]

Via last roll, Troll has 63hp, and 63 nonlethal damage. Thus, it is Staggered.

Troll turn: Regenerate 5 hp, losing the Staggered condition. Not that the move action will be used anyway, sigh. Grapples and their lack of good uses for a move action.

Standard action: Attack at a -4 penalty.

Attack: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

EDIT: Miss, Troll turn ends. Begin start of round 5. If troll remains grappled at the end of its next action (as it began the grapple), it will begin taking lethal damage at a rate of 12 hp/round.

[Sir Giacomo]

Die, you beast from hell! I almost had you!

[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

[Talic]

Unconscious after the first attack, as it would need an unmodified roll of 23 on a D20 to resist. 2nd hit automatically goes throughm pushing nonlethal damage above the rate of lethal damage that begins on the end of the troll's next round.

Elapsed time: 5 rounds + surprise round to subdue creature. 11 rounds + surprise round for party damage to overcome it permanently.

Mitigating factors: Poor monk rolls in the beginning resulted in extra damage to the monk. Balanced against poor troll rolls in the last several rounds.

High damage output beneficial to dropping the creature.
High grapple mod great for offense, good for defense. With Pin action, it can limit the foe to no more than 1 attack per round, and makes most attempts to harm the monk difficult.
Low AC is a critical factor in mitigating grapple effectiveness. Though grapple gives a -20% penalty to attacks, if your AC+4 is still hit on a roll of 10 or better, you're vulnerable to a grapple style. High Grapple/Low AC is like wearing Full plate over the chest, but being pantsless.

Next opponent will be: Dire Lion.

If you need gear changeout, or healing, do so now.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, let's get ready for unknown territory...:smallsmile:

Equipment is changed as posted in the main thread (note: part of the mundane equipment is a chain with which the horn of fog is fixed to the girdle of the monk). Plus, THE FOG will no longer keep his spiked chain in his hands at the start of the upcoming combat, but instead his horn of fog in one and the potion of mage armour in the other.

Between encounter healing: 3 potions of CLW imbibed, yielding
[roll0]

Then, in the surprise round, THE FOG blows the horn, creating an obscuring mist effect that envelops himself and the lion (in case it appears within 20ft of him), centred 20ft around him. He then drops the horn (free action) back dangling at his side.

Then, starting round 1...
[roll1]

[Talic]

There is no time between encounters. Only things that can be done between encounters are the following:

1) Use Party heal (once per CR shift, restore HP to full)
2) Use Equipment changeout. (swap out any equipment for value of product in its current state. Do not halve for selling. Thus, potion of CLW would exchange back at a value of 50g. If you drank it? It exhanges at the value of an empty vial. Services which have a non-returnable nature may not be exhanged.) This may be done once, period. When you replace items, you may specify their location, and thus, you may use this to also change items in hand, on back, etc.

All other actions, whether they be casting spells or activating magic items, are not allowed.

This means that: along with re-equip, changing of items in hand - legal.
Attaching of horn and chain - Legal.
Quaffing of potions - not legal. Is activation of magical items, and is no more legal than a character casting cure light wounds, or bull's strength, between rounds, which has been expressly disallowed. If you need health, and can't afford to drink potions in fight, party heal is available, and the surprise round that you always get is available.
Use of horn of fog, combined with free action drop - Legal.

Note: For Reference, all encounters for the entirety of this challenge, will begin at a distance of 30 feet. This allows any character, from a Halfling in full plate to a Barbarian monk with the psionic feat "Speed of Thought" to make a grapple on a full round charge, while leaving enough distance that opponents do not immediately threaten one another.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah OK, party heals in between, that changes the equipment reshuffle. Instead of 6 of the 9 potions of CLW, I'll take another potion of bull's strength. I was tempted to simply take a potion of hide from animals (since that is highly useful to avoid the best grapplers in those levels), but that would be somewhat metagamish, and THE FOG certainly will want to buff now, not later, and how could he know beforehand that an animal is the next opponent (plus, he has no knowledge-animal to be sure that that creature is not a magical beast, since it is so big)?:smallsmile:

Ànyhow, then. Initiative is rolled. I'm eager to see whether the fog delaying tactics will work.

[Talic]

Fair enough. Wanted to make equipment use available prior to beginning match. Bolded text below for easy "at a glance" reference.

CR 5 Party Heal used on 3rd encounter.

Lion Initiative: [roll0]

While initiative is unspoilered, based on action in the surprise round, there is no way to know whether or not you're acting before the other.

Edit: Monk has initiative.

[Sir Giacomo]

Oh, there is a way to know whether the lion went first...it would likely be heard doing something (listen check for the monk).:smallsmile:

Anyhow, round 1 actions:
- drink potion of mage armour, let drop bottle (standard action). AC is now 16.
- draw potion of bull's strength (move action)
- make 5ft step to the left, moving silently to do so [roll0] (note: the lion gets -3 penalty to listen check, since it is still 30ft away)

[Talic]

A listen check could prove that the lion did act... It wouldn't prove that it did not... Unless you beat the check by 20, and pinpointed the creature, that is. :smallsmile:

Ok, here's my take on lion's actions:1) No LOS. Limitations, unsure of precise location of enemy, cannot charge, as that requires LOS at start of action.

2) Monk is within range of scent ability, and has remained within range of scent ability. Thus, creature can discern that the monk is within 30 feet. by the fact that it cannot see the monk, it can discern that the monk is blocked by the cloud. Horn of fog created a 10x10 fog cloud in the surprise round, with monk in the cloud.

... F F .......... L L
... M F...........L L

On round 1, that fog cloud moves forward 10 feet (per Horn of Fog), and the monk steps to the left 5 feet. The update looks like this:

... M...F F ......L L
.........F F.......L L

Fog is now between the monk and the lion. (lion occupies a 10x10 area, as does the fog). Lion can smell monk. Lion makes a listen check which auto fails - cannot make a DC 32, with a -3 penalty to the check for distance. Lion can detect no sign that the monk has moved, and is certain he's somewhere behind or in that fog cloud. (creatures with animal intelligence will not account for things like invisibility when trying to figure out where something is)

Intuitive reasoning behind Lion's assumption that player did not move. Many prey animals, when alerted to danger, freeze motionless, making neither sight nor sound. Thus, when a stalked animal stops being heard, but can still be smelled, a lion's experience would hint that the prey may have done this.

Lion moves forward directly towards the monk's last known location. Lion and monk gain LOS to each other when Lion reaches 10 feet distance. Lion occupies the entire fog area. Lion makes an attack at monk from this distance. Chooses Bite attack.

Attack:[roll0] (bite bonus)
If Hit: [roll1] (bite damage)
If Threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

If Hit, Lion uses Improved Grab ability.
Opposed Grapple check: [roll4] (grapple modifier)
If Wins: [roll5] (unarmed strike damage for a large creature with 25 str).

This concludes Lion's turn (move and standard action used). At start of monk turn, Fog cloud moves forward 10 more feet, carrying it to behind the Lion.

EDIT: Hit, low grapple roll though, and low damage. Need opposed grapple check.

My Take on horn: Not a bad move. As Lion didn't have LOS, it could not declare a charge. A better move for round 1 might have been a full run away. The lion would have moved through the smoke most likely, and would only then realize how far away the monk was. That has the advantage of allowing the monk to buff, and if the lion runs after him in the NEXT round, lion loses dex to AC. As is, it prevented Pounce, which is still not bad.

[Sir Giacomo]

Well Talic,

The good:
Your description of the animal's tactis is excellent!

The bad:
The obscuring mist effect from the horn of fog should be 20ft radius in round one, and 10ft blocks in the rounds afterwards.
(check also what I wrote in the joker monk thread).

Now, to avoid lengthly discussions - I will follow your ruling here. But you noticed that I built my strategy on the notion of a 20ft radius fog. If indeed the fog produced is only 10ft cube, then I probably would have used the tactics you suggested.

Then, scenting is a move-equivalent action, so the lion could have only used its second move action to move close to the monk, establishing line of sight.


So, either way, the monk would not have been attacked yet.

Round 2 THE FOG actions:
Scenario 1:
The monk moved silently away with double move (-5 move silentyl check) to a 100ft distance in round 1, confusing the dire lion. Thus, it would still be around the mist, while THE FOG now did his mage armour activation, not dropping the bottle, but drawing the bull strength potion in a 2nd movemnt, stepping back another 5ft (silently, [roll0]).
Scenario 2:
The dire lion is now next to THE FOG, THE FOG moves into the the 10ft cube fog (in fact, through it to emerge on the other side, blocking again line of sight) and drinks the bull's strength potion.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ach, what the heck.

Let's keep things simple and forget about the fog henceforth, it served its purpose:
It is as you said, except that the dire lion could not attack yet (it moved and scented).

ROUND 2 FOG MONK ACTIONS
THE FOG then tumbles away (auto-success) without AoO around 25ft, keeps in line of sight of the dire lion, drinks the potion of bull's strength, drops both empty bottles and says "come here, kitty, kitty, kitty."

[Talic]

The bad:
The obscuring mist effect from the horn of fog should be 20ft radius in round one, and 10ft blocks in the rounds afterwards.
(check also what I wrote in the joker monk thread).

Horn of Fog issue:
This small bugle allows its possessor to blow forth a thick cloud of heavy fog similar to that of an obscuring mist spell. The fog covers a 10-foot square next to the horn blower each round that the user continues to blow the horn; fog clouds travel 10 feet each round in a straight line from the emanation point unless blocked by something substantial such as a wall. The device makes a deep, foghorn-like noise, with the note dropping abruptly to a lower register at the end of each blast. The fog dissipates after 3 minutes. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the fog in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the fog in 1 round.
Based on the text of the item... You blew the horn, creating a 10 foot square of fog. Check. That fog will persist for 30 rounds. Check. Now, it's unclear whether the fog moves, or if it only moves while you blow. I went with the first. That means it travels 10 feet. Travel = move, not expand. Its text is fundamentally different from an Eversmoking Bottle, which would expands as you described.

Attack issue:
You ARE attacked. That stands. I need the opposed grapple check. Your action was posted, and stands as posted. We're not doing action takebacks. If you misunderstood the functioning of your item, consider it a learning experience. However, even if the Fog DID expand (rather than move, which is what the item SAYS it does), the lion would have moved 5 feet further forward, putting it 5 feet from you, and within sight. You moved silently, however, you did not hide, so LOS would have been established at that point, allowing for the attack. The "noting direction of scent" will only be used if the lion has no idea whatsoever of your location. All it needs is knowing you're within 30 feet, which is automatic. It did not note the direction of the scent, which requires a move action. I need an opposed grapple check, DC 20.

All round 2 actions are currently invalid until round 1 actions are resolved.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, I see, not in the compromise mood...:smallfrown: Will not wish to discuss further after this post, hence I continue with your scenario in which the dire lion can attack THE FOG.

On that fog horn issue, and after that no more comments of mine on that here:

Read again what the description says.
Horn of Fog is activated, creating an effect similar to the obscuring mist spell. Check (20ft radius; the sentence ends after this first description)
Then, the fog would spread at 10ft adjacant to the player for every round that the user CONTINUES (notice the wording here!) to play the horn.
Then, even with your interpretation, the dire lion would not have had line of sight at first, doing a move to locate the monk on the one side (where the monk was not present, then trying to scent where the monk is (a move equivalent action). So no attack would have been possible.
Finally, I clearly outlined how I understood the horn of fog would work. Accepting that and then saying on the dire lion's turn "neenah, neenah, you read the item wrong" is completely useless for what we wish to finde out here. Heck, you even said after I outlined the 20ft radius and where the joker monk would be positioned: "Use of horn of fog, combined with free action drop - Legal."
And now you change your mind? Very odd.

OK, in round 1 the dire lion attacks. Doing so means he leaves a square threatened by THE FOG.
Attack of opportunity (a grapple touch attack)
[roll0]
[roll1]

If successful (opposing grapple check pls), THE FOG has now grappled the Dire lion before it could bite. The Dire Lion of course could still try to bite at -4.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Horn of Fog:It does NOT state it creates an "effect similar to an Obscuing mist." It states that it creates "a thick cloud of heavy fog similar to that of an obscuring mist spell."
Thus, the properties of the fog are identical to an obscuring mist spell, except as noted (properties such as visibility, concealment chance, and the like). The item then goes on to outline the Area of Effect. "The fog covers a 10-foot square next to the horn blower each round that the user continues to blow the horn", and then any additional properties of the effect "fog clouds travel 10 feet each round in a straight line from the emanation point unless blocked by something substantial such as a wall."

Thus, it creates a 10 foot square of fog adjacent to you on any round that you blow it. From that point, the cloud moves 10 feet away from the point of origin any round that it can. It's simple, it's straightforward. Nowhere in the item does it suggest that the fog spreads. If you blow the horn, you make a 10 foot square cube of fog. That's it.

Correct on the other issue. An AoO is provoked. Touch attack hits. Lion opposed grapple check to resist being grappled:

[roll0]

EDIT: Lion is not grappled. Remainder of lion's action stands as posted. 1 hit with a bite attack, for a total of 4 damage, and a required roll by you, opposed grapple check, DC20. As long as you don't roll a 1, you're fine.

[Sir Giacomo]

[roll0]

In case that's successful let me see...

[Sir Giacomo]

OK,

ROUND 2
THE FOG is at 38 hp.
He tumbles (auto-success) away to avoid AoO, moving into the edge of the remaining fog to prevent line of sight to the dire lion and get concealment vs it on its turn (not total concealment; taking into account the fog's drift) and drinks the potion of bull's strength (STR is now 26; grapple check +20 /flurried +19/+19; damage is now 3d6+8). He then drops both empty bottles, signaling his position to the dire lion.

[Talic]

As you stated intent is to block LOS, I'd like to point out that LOS from the lion to your square must pass through 2 fog squares (not including lion's square, including your square). 1 square only provides concealment.

Based on that:
Position as I see it: (M = Monk, L = Lion, F = Fog, x = empty square)

MMLLxFF
MMLLxFF

Tumbling will allow you to do the following:

xxLLxFMM
xxLLxFMM

With you occupying the fog with the left most side of your character. This seems most in keeping with moving into the edge of the fog. Lion will lose LOS of you as you move fully behind the fog.

Based on the above, the lion will take its turn. As you have LOS, albeit with concealment, turn is below. (you have los because the fog you're standing in does not count for your LOS. It does not because the square you're standing in DOES count for its.)

Lion takes a move action to note direction of foe. It now knows you are to the east, within 30 feet. It assumes you cannot see it, as it cannot see you.

Lion then readies an action: Action and Conditions are spoilered, for later verification. This spoiler off limits to Giacomo until after his next turn is posted.Attack if opponent moves within 10 feet and then does anything else. This will be combined with a 5 foot step, per SRD entry on readied actions, as the lion has made no movement this round.

Lion turn complete.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, if I interpret it correctly, THE FOG is currently 10ft away from the dire lion. In that case...(depending also on readied action of dire lion)

ROUND 3 actions
Flurried grapple from 10ft away.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll=Grapple damage 1]3d6+8[(roll]
Then, in case first touch attack and/or grapple check missed:
[roll2]
[roll3]
[roll=Grapple damage 2a]3d6+8[(roll]
Or, first grappling was successful, then a pin is attempted
[roll4]

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, after reading spoiled text - OK.
Saw also that I mistyped the grapple damage. Will wait to see whether grapple check is successful at all, then re-roll.
Also, noticed that if THE FOG has concealment from the dire lion, so could have the dire lion from attacks from THE FOG. Is that correct? Then I'd roll a miss chance (twice, for blind-fight).

EDIT3: forget my confusion. THE FOG was notwithin 10ft of dire lion, so he steps 5ft ahead of his full flurry attack (5ft in direction of the fog drift); triggering the readied action of the dire lion.

[Talic]

Correct. Monk was 15 feet from Dire Lion. Fog moves 10 feet forward, establishing LOS for the lion. Monk takes a 5 foot step towards lion. Monk attacks. Attack triggers lion's readied action.

Before the attack, lion takes a 5 foot step towards the monk, and attacks.

Lion Attack (claw): [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If Crit: [roll3]

From there, your attacks go off as listed.

Roll 1, to resist grapple: [roll4]

Note: as the fog cloud moves at the start of the monk's turn (technically, on the initiative count before it, but the timing makes no difference in this case), it moves past the monk, which means that the monk has no concealment from the attack.

EDIT: Grapple was not resisted. Lion takes Grapple damage. Your grapple damage is a broken roll. Please repost.

[Talic]

Grapple check to resist being pinned: [roll0]

Let's see if something decent rolls. I think the lion's average d20 roll this combat has been 4, heh. Not that you're complaining, I'm sure.

EDIT: Lion is pinned. Awaiting Damage roll repost prior to taking lion turn.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, I see the dire lion got similarly uninspiring single-digit rolls.:smallsmile:

OK, I'll reroll the round 3 grapple damage:
[roll0]

The dire lion can now try to escape the pin at the beginning of round four (its new initiative count, since it readied in round 2).

[Talic]

Yup. Here goes.

Lion has a Rake ability, which grants it 2 additional natural weapon attacks. These attacks are only usable while in a grapple, but are at full base attack bonus. As the lion is currently in a grapple, it has access to these extra attacks.

Relevant Text:
A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.


When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

As the lion is entitled to a total of 3 attacks while in grapple, I will be using them as necessary to escape pin.

Format is as follows. Lion will attempt to break pin until it succeeds. Once it succeeds, it will use the remainder of its attacks on the foe that pinned it.

Grapple attempt to break pin: [roll0]
Grapple attempt 2, to break pin (if necessary): [roll1]
Grapple attempt 3, to break pin (if necessary): [roll2]

1st attack lion is entitled to in the round (rake): [roll3]
If Hit: [roll4]
If threat: [roll5]
If Crit: [roll6]

2nd attack lion is entitled to in the round (rake): [roll7]
If Hit: [roll8]
If threat: [roll9]
If Crit: [roll10]

Note: If lion breaks pin on 1st attempt, both attacks above are valid. If lion breaks pin on 2nd attempt, only the 1st roll is valid. If lion fails to break pin, or breaks pin on 3rd attempt, no attacks are made against you.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ah, interesting.

Several issues, one good for the lion, two bad.
The good:
-If the lion wins the first grapple check to escape the pin, it can then do a claw attack in addition to the rakes (grapple checks are done instead of attacks; see als 3.5 FAQ p. 92).
The bad
- grapple checks are based on BAB (modified or plain BAB:smallwink:) The dire lion's BAB of 6 only allows it 2 grapple checks, not three (check out 3.5 FAQ, p. 92)
- Of course the grapple checks it can make to escape then also are at a successively lower BAB; so at +17/+12. (also FAQ, same page)

Having said that, the monk's two opposed grapple checks to keep up the pin until his turn in round 4 are:
[roll0]
[roll1]

[Sir Giacomo]

Oh great, rolled a 2 and a 4. Massive luck here :smallamused: Also, I would only have needed to roll the first one, anyhow (the lion pin escape attempt was too low). And then no rakes would have been possible, since you need to be grappling, not being pinned at the start of your round to be able to rake (SRD). Oh well...

OK, this puts THE FOG at 19 hits. If your claw attack hits THE FOG is really starting to get into trouble... (note that the claw attack is at -4 for being in a grapple, and at only +1 BAB, so at -9, since a grappling monster can only use one of its natural weapons while in a grapple).

Curse bad luck and rakes!:smallsmile:

OK, here are the 4th round THE FOG actions
Again trying to pin in a flurry. Also with second grapple in case first fails, otherwise if pin successful on first check, deal damage in second grapple check.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

[Talic]

Ah, interesting.

Several issues, one good for the lion, two bad.
The good:
-If the lion wins the first grapple check to escape the pin, it can then do a claw attack in addition to the rakes (grapple checks are done instead of attacks; see als 3.5 FAQ p. 92).
The bad
- grapple checks are based on BAB (modified or plain BAB:smallwink:) The dire lion's BAB of 6 only allows it 2 grapple checks, not three (check out 3.5 FAQ, p. 92)
- Of course the grapple checks it can make to escape then also are at a successively lower BAB; so at +17/+12. (also FAQ, same page)

Having said that, the monk's two opposed grapple checks to keep up the pin until his turn in round 4 are:
[roll0]
[roll1]

Bear in mind, when someone is pinned, they are still grappled. That's like saying that someone gets on a plane. When they go to the bathroom, they're not on the plane anymore, they're in the bathroom. Both are true.

That said, resist checks:

Grapple roll 1: [roll0]
Grapple roll 2: [roll1]

[Talic]

Ok, Lion is pinned. No damage however.

On Lion attacks:Lion has 2 attack progressions.
1) Natural attack: 2 claws (full BAB), 1 bite (BAB -5), 2 Rakes (Full BAB, only usable on a charge or while grappled).

2) BAB Progression: 2 Unarmed strikes (Full BAB, and BAB -5)

When in grapple, these progressions are as follows, and the lion may freely choose between them:

1) Natural attack: 1 claw (Full BAB), 2 Rakes (Full BAB)
2) BAB progression: 2 unarmed strikes (Full BAB, and BAB -5)

When pinned, the lion is still grappled (SRD, pinning is under the grapple listing), with the additional restrictions of having less options available. The creature still has full attacks, they are just only usable for certain things. For example, if your monk were pinned, he would be able to flurry, even if he cannot attack, and take a -1 to his checks to gain an additional grapple attempts. Similarly, even if the lion cannot make any direct attacks, it still has them, and may still make checks in place of them.

For verification, I am submitting the Question to Silvanos, as he's guaranteed to be impartial on it. Link to question is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4622037&posted=1#post4622037).

Lion Turn:
Using Natural attack progression:
Escape pin attempt 1, in place of claw attack:
Escape pin 2, if needed (in place of rake attack): [roll1]
If pinned at this point, forfeit attack 3. If Silvanos answers in favor of not considering rakes usable at pin, then subtract 5 from pin attempt 2.

As before, Lion will rake, as soon as it is free from grapple. 2nd one doesn't apply if pin escape 1 fails. 1st one doesn't apply if pin escape 2 fails.

1st rake in the round: [roll2]
If hit: [roll3]
If threat: [roll]1d20 +12
If crit:

2nd rake in the round: [roll5]
If hit: [roll6]
If threat: [roll]1d20 +12
If crit: [roll7]

EDIT: Need 2 grapple checks, DCs listed above.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmm. Confused a bit. I though you still had one extra claw attack (at -9) when making that first escape from pin attempt.
And also, I think you are wrong on that rake attack being still available even after having started the round in a pin. The point is that you first have to overcome the grapple, and after having won that, you are "still considered grappling". So being pinned appears to be one higher rung in the chain.
Will ask Lord Silvanos also in the Q&A about it.

Anyhow, for the time being we proceed as before (we can deduct the rake damage afterwards).

Opposed grapple checks to escape pin (and both are vs 29, since the lion gets -5 on its second escape attempt, as per iterative BAB bonus).

[roll0]
[roll1]

[Sir Giacomo]

This is simply incredible. First a 2, now a 1 for the decisive roll.:smallsigh:

OK.
5th round actions for THE FOG, now at 6 hp
Again, as before...flurry etc.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, another row of abysmal single-digit rolls.:smallsmile:

Lord Silvanos provided the ruling: it is possible to rake after breaking free from a pin in the same round, since pinning is considered grappling.

OK, let's see whether THE FOG survives one more round. I must say I underestimated the rake stuff which I though would apply only on a charge with pouncing (at least the double rake kind, also without the -4 penalty and no iterative BAB malus).

- Giacomo

[Talic]

OK, we're going with his interpretation.

That means when Pinned, I have 2 shots at breaking free. If I do break free, I can make 2 rakes. I deny myself any claw attacks when I have to break pin, as I don't get my standard attack routine when using iterative BAB, which I'm using to break pin.

Opposed Grapple checks:

Grapple 1: [roll0]
Grapple 2: [roll1]

Edit: Not pinned.

[Talic]

Attack Routine for Lion:

Attack 1: Claw attack at -4 penalty: [roll0]
If Hit: [roll1]
If threat: [roll2]
If crit: [roll3]

Attack 2: Rake: [roll4]
If hit: [roll5]
If threat: [roll6]
If crit: [roll7]

Attack 3: Rake: [roll8]
If hit: [roll9]
If threat: [roll10]
If crit: [roll11]

Edit: Even with attack rolls of 7,5, and 10, I think that's match.

Factors: Lion's abysmal rolls at beginning.
Monk's Abysmal rolls at end.
Sub-par AC from monk made creature able to hit very reliably in grapple with the attack at -4 option. More reliably than player was able to damage or pin. Also, shows that pinning is a less than fully effective strategy prior to gaining 3 attacks. The tradeoff in loss of damage dealt is too great, especially if the foe has a similar grapple mod and equal or more attacks.

[Sir Giacomo]

Wow, a raking creature IS tough to grapple - even the full plate contestants would have stood no chance. (THE FOG would have been best advised to just use his spiked chain, dancing around the fog created by the horn, or a cheap hide from animals effect in a real adventure - but hey, this is a grappling contest).

Thanks for putting in a lot of effort here, and providing many discussions, where really a lot was learned on grappling (for all involved). Will give a (possibly final?) comment in the main thread.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

Full plate contestants would have lasted longer in grapple. Higher AC would have helped. Provided you have a character with +1 full plate, an item of nat armor +1, and a dex mod of +1, it's an AC 21, which would have resulted in many of the above hits being misses. Choosing to fight defensively may further enhance that.

[Sir Giacomo]

They would have lasted longer in case the grapple would have been similarly higher AND if they had two grapple attempts to pin (otherwise the lion would have always been able to to 5 attack routine in a grapple, eventually overcoming even AC 21 quite fast).

Overall, I guestimated the chances of both THE FOG and the dire lion. On his turn, THE FOG had around a 90% chance to establish a pin vs the dire lion. This imo resulted in a overall winning chance of 50:50 - so the monk got unlucky. But it definitely was not THAT unlucky.

An interpretation of the horn of fog according to what I still see in the item (creating an effect similar to an obscuring mist when first activated, then when continuing to play doing the different effects to that of the original spell) would have resulted in 20% less damage output of the dire lion (miss chance), so likely have tilted the balance in favour of THE FOG.

I wonder what contestant will be able to overcome the three foes in a grapple with a good chance. Great barbarians will have a low will save, likely losing vs the cloaker will attacks in the first combat.
There is noone there with higher grapple damage than the monk, so vs the troll all will take longer to take it down vs its regenerating ability.
Vs the lion then a good AC helps vs the rakes, in case you have a good enough chance to get a pin up to avoid full attacks with 2 rakes, 2 claws and 1 bite.

- Giacomo

[Talic]

They would have lasted longer in case the grapple would have been similarly higher AND if they had two grapple attempts to pin (otherwise the lion would have always been able to to 5 attack routine in a grapple, eventually overcoming even AC 21 quite fast).

Overall, I guestimated the chances of both THE FOG and the dire lion. On his turn, THE FOG had around a 90% chance to establish a pin vs the dire lion. This imo resulted in a overall winning chance of 50:50 - so the monk got unlucky. But it definitely was not THAT unlucky.

An interpretation of the horn of fog according to what I still see in the item (creating an effect similar to an obscuring mist when first activated, then when continuing to play doing the different effects to that of the original spell) would have resulted in 20% less damage output of the dire lion (miss chance), so likely have tilted the balance in favour of THE FOG.

I wonder what contestant will be able to overcome the three foes in a grapple with a good chance. Great barbarians will have a low will save, likely losing vs the cloaker will attacks in the first combat.
There is noone there with higher grapple damage than the monk, so vs the troll all will take longer to take it down vs its regenerating ability.
Vs the lion then a good AC helps vs the rakes, in case you have a good enough chance to get a pin up to avoid full attacks with 2 rakes, 2 claws and 1 bite.

- Giacomo
Nope. Rules for grapple. A creature may use only 1 natural weapon in a grapple, and natural attacks do not use iterative attack bonus (i.e. +11/+6/+1). Rake is a specifically listed exemption from that, however, If the lion does 1 claw, it may not use the other, or the bite.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Wow, a raking creature IS tough to grapple - even the full plate contestants would have stood no chance.

I do plan on finishing that one and my goals have just shifting to beating this damn lion, so we'll see about that.



I wonder what contestant will be able to overcome the three foes in a grapple with a good chance. Great barbarians will have a low will save, likely losing vs the cloaker will attacks in the first combat.
There is noone there with higher grapple damage than the monk, so vs the troll all will take longer to take it down vs its regenerating ability.
Vs the lion then a good AC helps vs the rakes, in case you have a good enough chance to get a pin up to avoid full attacks with 2 rakes, 2 claws and 1 bite.

Well. the fighter/barb I posted had a will save of 6(with Items), then I do have to admit I was considering scrapping a few point of WIS in favour of DEX, but it still isn't that bad, your was 7 IIRC.
also on damage output:

Barb/Fight(no rage):
1d6+1d8+2=10 at +6, +1

Monk:
3d6=10.5 at +4 or +3, +3 if you're allowed to flurry

Note: both get an additional +6 str damage on a successful hit.
So I don't think the f/b is that far behind on you.