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Grynning
2008-06-21, 02:05 PM
I noticed in the magic items section that magic shields do not receive an enhancement bonus to any defenses. Can they be enhanced like armor (+1, +2, etc) or is this an intentional change (since stacking bonuses from magic shields and armor could result in very high numbers)?

Also, has anyone come up with a really good shield-using melee build? It looks like fighter is the obvious choice, as it does not appear any other class has any shield-specific powers. Which one-handed weapon would go best with such a build, and are there any ways to get extra defensive/offensive oomph out of your shield? I'm thinking using a flail or a spear one handed would be a good choice, but I'm needing some inspiration.

Starbuck_II
2008-06-21, 02:09 PM
I noticed in the magic items section that magic shields do not receive an enhancement bonus to any defenses. Can they be enhanced like armor (+1, +2, etc) or is this an intentional change (since stacking bonuses from magic shields and armor could result in very high numbers)?

Also, has anyone come up with a really good shield-using melee build? It looks like fighter is the obvious choice, as it does not appear any other class has any shield-specific powers. Which one-handed weapon would go best with such a build, and are there any ways to get extra defensive/offensive oomph out of your shield? I'm thinking using a flail or a spear one handed would be a good choice, but I'm needing some inspiration.

Nope. Shields get magic abilities/powers, but do not gain bonuses to AC. Gone is the day you get even more AC from shields

Like Shield of Protection is pretty sweet at lowering damage taken. But that is a property not an AC bonus.

Ashdate
2008-06-21, 04:23 PM
If you're planning on using a shield, it seems from my reading of the feats and abilities that you really end up giving up damage for the bonus AC. Now, I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing; compared to every other class (except perhaps a Paladin) you're going to be sitting with a higher AC while using a shield (+2 with a heavy shield), not to mention a slightly higher Reflex save.

So therefore the challenge becomes getting enemies to attack you. That means marking them. With a two-handed weapon, you're basically asking "attack me, or take a -2 penalty." With a shield, you're basically saying "you're taking a -2 penalty to hit" to each enemy you can mark. Now, normally you can only attack one person during a round, but you're not actually limited to marking only one target; you simply need to figure out ways to attack multiple creatures.

Unfortunately the at-will "Cleave" doesn't count; Marking cares about attacking enemies, and Cleave technically only attacks the first target. Therefore it's the job of encounter and daily powers to pick up the slack. "Passing Attack" is a nice choice, allowing the ability to mark two targets at level 1 per encounter. You can pick up "Rain of Blows" at level 3, which (depending on your interpretation of the ability) requires a light blade, spear or flail to achieve multiple attacks, or "Sweeping Blow" which doesn't require a particular weapon, but benefits from an axe, flail, or heavy blade.

There become two issues you might need to contend with. You can only use your combat challenge 'attack' once per round (as it's an immediate interrupt, see pg 268 of the PHB) so multiple marked targets can possibly end up breaking away from you. While giving them a -2 to hit is nice, it still might be worth it for them to run off and attack another player (since your AC is probably higher even with the -2 penalty). There are some powers that can help boost your allies' AC, but they all arrive a little late (Stalwart Guard at level 10, Interposing Shield at level 16). For the most part you have to be content to mark as many targets as you can.

On that note, I would recommend picking up the "Soldier of the Faith" class-specific feat. The ability to mark one target at a decent range once per encounter is pretty good (especially if you can get a Charisma of 12 for minion deterrent purposes). Best of all it allows you to take a Paladin Paragon path. "Champion of the Order" gives you a few neat abilities, particularly the ability to use your Divine Challenge on two creatures once per day. Astral Weapon lends an additional disincentive on creatures you've marked (although the 11th level power is of dubious value). These two are much better at playing the 'tank' roll than any of the Fighter classes. The Hospitaler actually offers an amazing ability at 11th level, healing your allies every time one your marked targets attacks them. Unfortunately, all the other abilities are pretty useless. You don't have any "Lay on Hands" ability, and assuming you've been pumping Str, Dex, and Wis (as you probably should for a fighter) your Charisma will be pretty sucky, making those "Cha vs A.C." and "Cha vs. Fort" abilities pretty stinky.

Otherwise for feat choices, it's perhaps best to choose feats that improve your opportunity attacks over feats that improve your combat challenge attacks (since they'll probably come up more often).

Finally, consider picking up a pair of Gauntlets of the Ram. They make your at-will action, Tide of Iron, really sweet!

- Eddie

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-21, 04:27 PM
I just statted out a dwarven axe & shield Fighter --> Iron Vanguard that I'll probably use as my first character. I only took a couple of the shield powers, so he actually ended up as more of a blend between offensive and defensive Fighter builds.

There's also a little bit of Controller in there, since I picked a lot of powers that pull and push enemies around. In particular, tide of iron at-will power, Shield Push and Shield Specialization feats, are good for shield-using Fighters. I can post specifics if you want. Shield Specialization (paragon feat) does improve your AC and Reflex whenever you use a shield. Magic items to include a Shield of Bashing and Guantlets of the Ram.

I like this character because having a shield for the first time is actually INTERESTING. It actually lets you do things you couldn't do without one (if you're a Fighter, at least). Also, I just like pulling and pushing people about while being a dwarf makes me resistant to return treatment. :smallwink: Also, somehow I never got around to playing a dwarf in 3e and I always wanted to, but they just weren't interesting enough.

Kletian999
2008-06-22, 02:27 PM
I'm starting an Avenging Paladin as my group's defender and I'm not seeing a huge benefit to shields. Currently I'm opting to use a verstile weapon and keep a hand free to perform grabs and other atypical moves for controlling purposes.

marjan
2008-06-22, 04:55 PM
I'm starting an Avenging Paladin as my group's defender and I'm not seeing a huge benefit to shields. Currently I'm opting to use a verstile weapon and keep a hand free to perform grabs and other atypical moves for controlling purposes.

+2 AC and +2 reflex. Plus some shields have OK dailies. In your case you would exchange that for +1 damage. IMO not worth it. Either go sword and board, or 2H weapon.

Tengu
2008-06-22, 04:58 PM
Especially since your DM might allow you to grab and drink potions even when using a two-hander. After all, this weapon only requires two hands to attack, not to hold.

JaxGaret
2008-06-22, 06:22 PM
The Shield of Deflection has a very nice always-on property, so you don't even need to use one of your item dailies to benefit from it.

Yakk
2008-06-22, 06:58 PM
There become two issues you might need to contend with. You can only use your combat challenge 'attack' once per round (as it's an immediate interrupt, see pg 268 of the PHB) so multiple marked targets can possibly end up breaking away from you.

If you can reduce enemies to having to shift away from you, that's pretty good lockdown (unless, of course, you are fighting Kobolds!)

Combat Superiority is more important to the Fighter lockdown -- that prevents creatures from just disengaging and running over to swarm the Wizard, Cleric or Rogue.

A blade opportunist fighter with 16 wisdom is getting +5 to hit on OAs. And you can do an OA on each other creature's turn, not once per one of your turns. :)

Kletian999
2008-06-23, 11:04 AM
Especially since your DM might allow you to grab and drink potions even when using a two-hander. After all, this weapon only requires two hands to attack, not to hold.

I want to be able to stab the things I grab too. Otherwise I'd have to make an improvised attack headbutt or something.