View Full Version : Team Fortress 2 + D&D: Brace for epic!

2008-06-21, 09:46 PM
Ok, so... since I've apparently taken too many blows to the head, I've decided to put my players (6 level 14s with two cohorts) against characters ripped from Team Fortress 2. I was inspired by this: http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5268/chartspt0.png
and will probably stick to the alignments, though they will all still work together--leave the reason to me. However, I would like some ideas as how to do this: I'm thinking gestalt level 18 for each--the party has taken out much worse--give or take a couple levels due to adjustments, etc, and kinda bending the rules on alignment restrictions. I'm going a bit more for style rather than crunch in that aspect, but the characters should stick to the theme and be moderately effective. It would be possible for them to obtain weapons similar to primitive versions of their guns, but if you can think of an alternative, go for it. Dual-prestiging is okay, too.

If you don't know anything about Team Fortress 2, 1.) WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN, and 2.) you can check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_fortress_2 .

Some ideas:

Medic: Radiant Servant of Pelor ("the ultimate healstick"), maybe?
Heavy: Orc or Half-orc, since they're essentially Russian in this game.
Scout: Monk//rogue?
Engineer: Gnomish artificer, going maester and effigy master, mayhaps.
Sniper: Dunno here. I'll give him a rifle, though...
Demoman: Scottish, drunk... maybe a dwarf, then?
Soldier: Tough one. He might have a primitive rocket launcher.
Spy: Doppleganger mindspy, spymaster?
Pyro: Pyrokineticist, anyone?

I'd love to see what people can do with this, and thanks in advance!

Inhuman Bot
2008-06-21, 10:06 PM
I don't know why but this made me think...

2008-06-21, 10:11 PM
I don't know why but this made me think...

For some reason, that feels oddly appropriate.

2008-06-21, 10:23 PM
How about the Complete Adventurer Scout class for the Scout?

2008-06-21, 11:52 PM
Funny, I clicked on this thread with the expectation that somebody was going to draw parallels between the arguments over the Pyro with the arguments of 3e and 4e.

Long story short: The Pyros flamer gets a hit-detection upgrade. The flame now does the same damage no matter which area of the jet you get caught in.

They now get an air compression burst on the regular flamer, and can use it to knock away sticky grenades and can occasionally manage to deflect rockets.

Soldiers are nerfed: They pretty much suicide if they pointblank the ground while they're still touching it.

"Pyros are overpowered! You nerfed the soldier! Whaaa!"

Of course, the end result is that the Pyro can actually manage to be a threat to somebody instead of being a mere nuisance. And Soldiers still remain versatile kill-bots.

Cue the "realism" and "similitude" arguments about a *game* and other detailed, but irrelevant, arguments that ultimately say that people who somehow agree with the nerf of the powerhouse class are essentially stupid.

The only difference is that with D&D, nobody is forcing you to get the version upgrade.

2008-06-22, 12:20 AM
I was considering statting up Heavy as a PrC. Proficiency with two handed weapons and heavy repeating crossbow. :smallbiggrin:

Didn't get around to it though. Still might eventually.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-06-22, 03:13 AM
I'd have the spy as a lurk/assassin, probably, who used baleful transposition to appear behind other characters and backstab them.

PS This is awesome.

2008-06-22, 11:06 AM
Funny, I clicked on this thread with the expectation that somebody was going to draw parallels between the arguments over the Pyro with the arguments of 3e and 4e.

I get what you're saying. I hear way too much about how the upgrade is horrible while playing the game. Personally, once the 6-pyros-a-team dies down, I'll be fine. And I usually blew myself up as a soldier anyway.

Glawakcus: I feel like an idiot for not actually thinking about the SCOUT class. Duhr hur.

Scribe: I have Complete Psionic, but not the XPH; but I think lurk is pretty self-contained, so I'll look closer at it. And thank you. :smallbiggrin:

2008-06-22, 12:22 PM
If not for the alignment, I'd say Monk for the Scout.
Fast movement, good jumping skills, not too powerful, but is good at getting the heck out of there.

Oh, maybe the Demoman can be a Drunken Master at some point?

2008-06-22, 01:57 PM
If not for the alignment, I'd say Monk for the Scout.
Fast movement, good jumping skills, not too powerful, but is good at getting the heck out of there.

Oh, maybe the Demoman can be a Drunken Master at some point?

Yeah, I really don't buy the "monks have to be lawful" thing too much, so I was thinking that. Maybe if I pulled some DM cheese and said the speed boosts stack... that'd be hilarious.

And I think Drunken Master is a given, since his melee weapon's a bottle! :smalltongue:

2008-06-22, 05:30 PM
If not for the alignment, I'd say Monk for the Scout.
Fast movement, good jumping skills, not too powerful, but is good at getting the heck out of there.

Oh, maybe the Demoman can be a Drunken Master at some point?

I doubt the monk would be a good fit for the Scout; when they get close, they can be devastating. The monk is also extremely survivable (supposedly), which the Scout definitely isn't.

Apart from that, I would suggest statting the characters out as creatures with SLAs etc. as opposed to building them with classes. It gives you more power to fine-tune them to their game abilities and doesn't add a load of hard-to-justify class features. I imagine that using the 4e powers system would be a great way to do it, but that's irrelevant for your game.

So, my needlessly lengthy, please please skip over all this thoughts based on that idea...

Soldier: Ranged attack, with high damage and splash damage. Can lose hitpoints for a big bonus to Jump, and can also jump without having a runup if it does this. Low movement speed, basically like a Dwarf.
Pyro: Some sort of cone effect, short range but very high damage. If we include upgrades, the Backburner could give some sort of Sneak Attack-like ability. High movement speed.
Scout: Huge movement speed. Very high Dex, and a great touch armour class. Ranged attack with high damage but a tiny range increment. Low Con, and thus low hitpoints.
Demoman: Can deploy sticky bombs, probably two or three per turn, and detonate them as an immediate action, with each one dealing a small amount of damage that stacks with other simultaneously detonating stickybombs. Grenades have a short range but do not need direct line of sight (let's just assume that this Demoman is a skilled one who can bounce the things wherever he likes).
Heavy: Huge Con, huge Str, and has a ranged attack with, once again, a tiny range increment, that does a fair amount of damage and has several attacks per turn; when using this attack, his speed is reduced to something small (10' seems reasonable). Also, unarmed attacks :smallbiggrin:
Engineer: Can spend full-round actions deploying buildings (full-round as it takes some time). Sentry Gun is a construct with excellent accuracy and damage, and some splash once the rocket launcher is fitted to it. Dispenser casts Cure X Wounds (depending on the level of the party - make it smaller than the Medic's power) on every adjacent ally. Teleporter provides unlimited range dimension door once every two rounds for one creature only.
Medic: Picks a target for the medigun, who gains Fast Healing X as long as the medic spends standard actions sustaining it. Once every ten rounds (random number, reduce or increase as appropriate) he can trigger an uber; this either makes him and the target invulnerable to all damage (vanilla medigun) or makes every single hit a Critical (Kritzkrieg; reduce the number of rounds it takes to charge up for this one) - luckily, DnD 3.5 crits and TF2 crits work pretty much the same way in terms of effect. Needlegun has small damage, reasonable range increment, and several attacks per turn; the damage is reduced for the Blutsauger but the medic is healed by an amount equal to what he deals. Then there's the bonesaw, high melee damage, and the Übersaw, which reduces the number of turns until the next Übercharge by two for every hit.
Spy: Invisibility as a swift action. Assassin-style Death Attack when using his melee weapon, but without the study time. Low Con/HP. Has the ability to completely disable constructs. Disguise Self as an SLA.
Sniper: Super-long range increment, high damage attack. Can charge as a standard action which will make the next attack more powerful, somehow.

And blah. I hope I haven't been massively simu'd too many times in the long time since I started writing that. :smallwink:

2008-06-22, 06:00 PM
I would homebrew a non-leveling set of the 9 different classes, giving them set HP and access to various SLAs and weapons in order to accurately represent each class. It's much easier than trying to pigeonhole them into an existing D&D class which will lead to them only vaguely representing what they're supposed to and having incredibly weird builds that require twenty sourcebooks to achieve.

2008-06-22, 06:43 PM
Elemental Savant (CArc) for the Pyro!

And for the scout, a melee-based Scout (CAd) sounds appropriate. Fast, fragile, but able to bring the hurt if they run at you and hit. Heck, give it Spring Attack, Elusive Target, the psionic feat Up the Wall (lets you run on walls as part of your move if you're focused), Leap of the Heavens, and additional speed increasers.

Or, the Halfling Monk substitution level in Races of the Wild gives skirmish.

2008-06-22, 06:44 PM
Z-Axis, those are a lot of good ideas. And one of the reasons I wanted Monk for the Scout is his flurry; Scouts can hit really fast if they're played right. I was thinking of making him a catfolk; quick and light, but not necessarily strong. Catfolk Pounce could certainly give the party fits, and I'm thinking of giving him the full Spring Attack tree.

Void, I can understand what you're saying, though part of the fun of this is going through the 30+ books I own to find something that makes me go "a-HA!" I also like to make my players figure things out; I don't want to make it too obvious right away. That being said, I have absolutely no skill at homebrewing or, indeed, creating anything at all...

I hope I don't sound unappreciative. I'm really glad people are interested in this idea. If anyone has an actual build they'd like to purpose, I'm open to it!

2008-06-22, 07:31 PM
Best at will SLA for demoman ever: Explosive (maybe with energy substitution as well) Fire Seeds.
So very, very appropriate.

Pyro could use combust and gust of wind or some other "pushback" effect. Wings of Cover, maybe?

Scout needs sneak attack, or skirmish, or some other precision damage. An ironically appropriate choice would be a very short ranged bow, Greater Manyshot, and scout. It may not be a scattergun, but it's a lot of deadly arrows. (Rollerskates (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a) are optional :P). If you get rollerskates, grab a swordsage level for step of the wind.

Spy needs sneak attack, again. A lot of it. And assassin levels. Rogue 6/Swordsage 2/Assassin 10 could work. Or, if gestalt, just grab full swordsage levels, and rogue 5/assassin 10/something 3 or whatever. Cloak of deception, shadow blink, Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike? Yum.

Sniper could be scout 4/Ranger X. Take the sniper variant for scout, and take some Spell Compendium Spells like Hunter's Mercy (automatic critical hit, standard action casting) for the ranger. Take swift Hunter, and add the levels for progression. Toss in some assassin maybe, on the other side, and take spells like Sniper Shot. Crossbow Sniper is an appropriate feat.

Heavy is tricky, as the Minigun is hard to duplicate. Soldier... some sort of explosives would be nice, but again, hard to duplicate. Dunno about engineer, maybe some sort of summoning ability, and traps. (Combat trapsmith?).
Medic seems theroetically simple enough.

2008-06-24, 09:47 AM
Pyro could use combust and gust of wind or some other "pushback" effect. Wings of Cover, maybe?

Scout needs sneak attack, or skirmish, or some other precision damage. An ironically appropriate choice would be a very short ranged bow, Greater Manyshot, and scout. It may not be a scattergun, but it's a lot of deadly arrows. (Rollerskates (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a) are optional :P). If you get rollerskates, grab a swordsage level for step of the wind.

I was thinking (as suggested above) Elemental Savant for Pyro, maybe after Warmage: Fire-substituted Explosive Cone of Cold would make for excellent battlefield control.

As for the 'scatterbow'; I rarely play archers, and I can't check the books (since I'm at work), but does Manyshot have to be part of a full attack, or can it be used as part of a regular attack action (a standard action)?

2008-06-24, 10:25 AM
Manyshot is a standard action. Greater manyshot is the same, with precision damage applicable to each arrow.
Elemental savant sounds cool for pyro :). Wings of cover felt appropriate, because it deflects attacks. Wind wall, of course, does the same for bows. These reflect the recent update :smallbiggrin:

2008-06-24, 11:06 AM
Oooh, nice. That means, if I have him go straight Scout on one side of gestalt... 5d6 extra per shot. That is, if he can hit: the party tank has an AC in the upper 30s. I guess that really captures the scattergun, though...

I'm not familiar with Wings of Cover, so I can't comment. Could you summarize it?

2008-06-24, 11:28 AM
Immediate action provides total cover against a single attack. Allows the attacker to take a different choice of action though. Second level sorceror only spell. Races of the Dragon.

Not having the book, that's approximate. Also, it doesn't provide immunity to AOE spells, just a bonus on saves.

2008-06-24, 12:24 PM
Oooh, cool. I might have to fudge it for it to work with the intended Warmage option, but hey, I'm the DM. I'll look it up when I get home from work.

The mention of AoE spells brings up an interesting point; the party's wizard has a tendency to completely annihilate my carefully-planned and -themed encounters with maximized Cones of Cold. Is there anything thematically-relevant that might help with that and other pesky nuke spells?

2008-06-24, 12:41 PM
Actually, Wings of Cover seems to just give total cover, so blocked.

It's Evocation(force) so no fudging required. Advanced Learning.

As for the other classes, a bit trickier. Rings of evasion can help.

Sniper should be out of range. Soldier/heavy should be able to tank. Scout has evasion, if not improved, and awesome reflex save. Medic... needs help. Could be out of range, maybe. Pyro is sorta immune. Spy shouldn't be hit. Engineer shouldn't be hit that often. Demoman has issues.

Spread out, and keep the squishies out of range. I can't think of much else. 90 damage hurts a lot though... If gestalt, try to keep a good reflex save?

2008-06-24, 12:52 PM
Alright, nice!

Let's see... there's some good ideas to get me started on Scout and Pyro...

Now let's take a look at... the Spy.

I was thinking Doppleganger for the Disguise; For classes, Lurk, Assassin, and Swordsage have all been suggested, as has, of course, Rogue. Looking through Complete Adventurer yesterday, I came across Shadowmind. As stated above, I have little experience with psionics, but I liked what I saw (and understood). This is probably gonna be the trickiest one, with the possible exception of Engineer.

2008-06-24, 06:05 PM
think, given the description of "level 18 gestalt", that spy should be a dark changeling (LA +1) psionic rogue 5/Psionic assassin 10/Psionic Rogue 2(or 3)//Swordsage 18.

Decent manifesting, nice manuvers, gets hide in plain sight, disguising, Cloak of Deception, Death Attack, 7d6 sneak attack, good speed. Take Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Gloom Razor, Practiced Manifester, and anything else you feel like.

Engineer... is definitely the trickiest one.
Heavy Weapons Guy should have barbarian levels, maybe frenzied berzerker. I personally lean towards the cheesetastic Ogre(4HD, 2LA) 2LA/Barbarian 6/Warhulk 10//(4 RHD)/Crusader 14. It gets crazy area of effect attacks, nice defense/healing from crusader, and rage. It also doesn't spaz out like frenzied berserker. It also gets Indominitable fortitude, for the "Doesn't die"

2008-06-24, 06:53 PM
Oh, geez... I really need to look at Warhulk. I forgot that class even existed! I might, just for the helluvit, make him half-orc, half-ogre... I wanna spring a little surprise on the Half-Orc Crusader of Heironeous. Stat's'll be the same... and I'm practicing my Russian accent so I can yell "Is coward KILLING TIME!" XD

What's Dark Changeling in? I'm not familiar with that race. I'll need to bone up on the psionic classes, but it seems like that's the way to go with the Spy.

As for Engineer... I was thinking Artificer//Rogue, then maybe Combat Trapsmith//Effigy Master (May need to mess with this a bit), then going regular Trapsmith//something else.

2008-06-24, 09:18 PM
Changeling is Eberron, ECS book, or MM3. Mostly because it gets disguise self, physically, at will.

Dark template is Tome of Magic. +10 base land speed, +8 hide, +6 Move Silently, Hide in plain sight, and cold resistance 10.

Psionic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and psionic assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d).

I don't remember where to find warhulk... miniatures handbook, IIRC. Maybe online. Here. Near the bottom. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a)

Psionics aren't too bad. The base power points/day, + manifester level*casting stat (intelligence)/2 = PP/day. Using a power costs at least 2n-1 PP, where n is the power level. Powers can be augmented, as specified in description. Generally, no components. All you need to do is select powers as you level up, and use any of them as long as you have PP. Just print out power descriptions, if you can't remember them.

Good time to run, COWARDS!

I still say demoman needs fire seeds Acorn Grenades
As many as four acorns turn into special splash weapons that can be hurled as far as 100 feet. A ranged touch attack roll is required to strike the intended target. Together, the acorns are capable of dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6), divided up among the acorns as you wish.

Each acorn explodes upon striking any hard surface. In addition to its regular fire damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage per die, and it ignites any combustible materials within 10 feet. A creature within this area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage; a creature struck directly is not allowed a saving throw.

Holly Berry Bombs
You turn as many as eight holly berries into special bombs. The holly berries are usually placed by hand, since they are too light to make effective thrown weapons (they can be tossed only 5 feet). If you are within 200 feet and speak a word of command, each berry instantly bursts into flame, causing 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per caster level to every creature in a 5-foot radius burst and igniting any combustible materials within 5 feet. A creature in the area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage.

Makes total, absolute sense. Even exactly 8 holly berry bombs. Seriously.

War hulk BREAKS with gestalt. Seriously, the strength is to offset the lack of BAB. With 10 levels... Well, he can full attack EVERYTHING IN HIS REACH. WITH EVERY ATTACK. WITH +18 BAB. He can't make intelligence checks, but who really cares?

2008-06-24, 10:51 PM
Oh, man: the command word to detonate them has to be "Ka-BOOM!" XD

Dammit, I knew that template was in something I had. >.<

I've got a feeling that this Heavy is gonna be nasty... I just hope he doesn't get killed/kill the party!

2008-06-25, 10:55 AM
My post! NOOOO!

Ok, make the heavy a Half-orc/half ogre barbarian 5/War Hulk 10/Warblade 2.
Take Wall of Blades, Mountain Hammer, and Iron Heart Surge, along with roots of the mountain. Then, take Dazing Strike or Lightning Recovery. You should have around 60 strength (0.o) leaving you with +33 or more to hit. Also, DC 40 dazing strike. His AC is relatively low, but he can easily have over 270 health.

Scout needs a good + on the bow. Take Hunter's Mercy as a spell, and get a greater magic weapon (or a good enhancement).(Also, improved skirmish) Along with moderate dexterity optimization, and reduce person, +24ish to hit isn't far off. However, more is needed if you want to hit the tank. On the other hand, scouts don't usually go after heavy targets, they use mobility to mow down squishies, so I think 8d6+str+enhancement to the casters per shot, all with +24 to hit, should hurt (32+ average damage, *4. Do you have over 128 health?)

2008-06-25, 11:21 AM
I'm gonna stat the Heavy as a full-blooded ogre: the half-orc won't be mechanical, simply fluff/plot. It sounds like what you've got going is pretty effective, so I might just abandon my original idea of 'prototype Gatling gun' altogether. The Scout, on the other hand... I think I've got a good grip of what to do with him (or her...). I think there was a magic weapon property called 'cunning' in some third-party sourcebook I might give the bow: when the target is flat-footed, the crit modifier of the weapon goes up by one. That should pack an extra kick. Reduce Person is an interesting idea, but I need to look at all the final stats first.

I really appreciate your help with this, Arbitrarity. It seems like everyone else has lost interest, but I'd love to hear more ideas if you've got 'em. I'm definitely using the Warhulk thing.

2008-06-25, 04:38 PM
A while ago I came up with which 4e class/builds match TF2 classes, in role and philosophy, though TF2 obviously features more ranged combat and less melee combat.

Heavy=Fighter(Defensive emphasis)
Soldier=Warlock(Con emphasis)
Pyro=Ranger(TWF build)
Scout=Ranger/Rogue(Mobility Emphasis)
Demoman=Wizard(AOE emphasis)
Sniper=Ranger(Archery) or Rogue(Crossbow)
Engineer=Warlord(Int build, has good att/move bonus but little heal)
Medic=Cleric(Syringe Gun=Laser Cleric, Bonesaw=Melee Cleric)
Spy=Rogue(Dagger emphasis)

2008-06-25, 08:41 PM
I approve of this thread.

If you want Heavy to be like in the game, make him a bit over powered but add a weakness to death attacks and precision damage. the medic should also be able to give temporary hitpoints, of course.

I also agree with the Scout hit and run for the Scout.

I didn't know soldiers got nerfed. I was wondering why I sucked so much lately. SOLDIER FTW!

Give soldier half damage from AoO attacks, so he can survive his rocket jump. There's a metamagic feat in Complete Arcane that causes all enemies in an AoE spell to be forced to the edge of it. Demoman's rockets should be grenade like weapons (obviously).

2008-06-25, 09:06 PM
There's a series of 3.5 books for the Warcraft setting that you might want to consider looking into. Specifically, "Magic & Mayhem" features a weapon called the Dwarven Reciprocator that I think would be perfect for the Heavy. It's basically a clockwork automatic rifle. You can fire five shots as a full-round action, though the first has a -2 attack penalty, the second a -4, third -6, etc.., as long as everything you're shooting at is within a 5-foot radius of each other. You need a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms) and it costs 1,500 GP, but each shot does 3d6. Really cool weapon.

2008-06-25, 09:32 PM
Hm. I can build a few characters, if you want. Sniper looks easy enough (Sniper Scout/Ranger//Rogue/Assassin), I'm not sure exactly how to do medic, I'd make the soldier a simple warblade, or maybe, as aforementioned, a warlock. Why? Repelling blast. But otherwise, I can't see many options for him :/.

I wonder how to get temporary HP from the medic... hm. Also, how are we doing ubercharge/critzcrieg here? I bet ubercharge. Maybe delay death/beastland ferocity? Very cheesy, but it works. Also, he needs persistant vigor :P.

Aha, vigor spells along with basic healing. Positive Energy Aura, Vigorous circle, etc all help. Need.. temporary hit points. Lion's Roar, and Greater Heroism are all I can find, actually. Huh. Those cap around 20 hp each, though, which isn't nearly enough. Oh well, that'll have to do.

Spy is mostly done, Heavy is pretty much done, scout is effectively done, pyro is mostly done... I think sniper is good, Demo needs stats around the defining ability, we need engineer, medic, and soldier. Also demo build. Not bad.

Actually, soldier could be a lot of things, like a gish. Now, gish with explosive spell...

I dunno. Your call on what you want the soldier to look like. It depends if you want to retain the combat flavor, pretty much. It's tricky to do so, so I'd just make a generalist soldier build. (If God had wanted you to live, he wouldn't have created ME!)

Demo, however, you could just make a expert with at will explosive fire seeds, and maybe a couple other spell-likes.

Engineer, I don't have the books to make. Seriously.

2008-06-25, 10:46 PM
That. Gun. Is. PERFECT.

As for the Medic, I figured it out. Gestalt him with bard, and give him Ironskin Chant. That mirrors the Ubercharge as best I can see. Maybe combine that with Beastland's ferocity...

The soldier... I should probably make him melee. A warlock//warblade might not be a bad idea, come to think of it. (This is MY world! You are not welcome in MY world!)

I'm rolling up the ability scores for each of them... I just need to figure out what goes where...

2008-06-25, 10:52 PM
I like the gun, nice medic build, good soldier idea. I forgot gestalt :P.

Hm. Ok, now how do we integrate that gun with the heavy weapons guy? Hm.
Ok, get feats/items for extra damage, to maximize those shots. Fighter levels, maybe, with weapon focus, specialization, etc. Maybe some warblade, but it's uselss in ranged combat anyways.

Weapon focus
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon specialization
Ranged Weapon Mastery(piercing)
Weapon Supremacy (YAY)

Combat Focus?
Combat vigor?
Combat stability?

Yep, looks like fighter. Especially for weapon supremacy, which owns. Dunno about the other side of gestalt.

Anyways, those together give +4 to-hit, +5 within 30 ft. Also, take 10 on one attack/round, +5 on one attack/round that isn't the first, attacking within a grapple, +6 damage/hit, 7 within 30 ft. +20 range increment. +1 to AC.
This, combined with the heavy's... high.. dexterity... 0.o.
A lot of feats, but it makes the minigun much better.
Ok, does heavy have high dexterity, or wisdom? You may want zen archery, depending on what you want to simulate. However, 22+dex to hit, or wisdom, or w/e isn't enough to hit the mentioned tank very often. Taking 10, on the other hand... Yum, maybe.

2008-06-26, 01:57 AM
For the Medic, I think the PH2 Favored Soul alternate class feature might be worth noting.

2008-06-26, 06:39 AM
I'm going with Barbarian/Warhulk on the other side for Heavy. After all ten levels of the class--without magic items--his strength will be 50. Ogres FTW! That being said, his wisdom is higher than his dexterity (17-14), I believe. That's what magic items are for, anyway. Taking fighter on the other side might be the best idea; it'd help me pick up those feats. I think I might just reserve Warblade for the soldier.

2008-06-26, 12:49 PM
If you are willing to get the previously-mentioned Warcraft books (there's two versions, by the way, and I'd go with the ones that don't say "World of Warcraft" on them simply because they're easier to integrate with standard D&D), the Tinker class from them would be both perfect for the Engineer and give an excuse for where the gun came from (he built it).

2008-06-26, 12:55 PM
"Ah built that." :D

Really, now? I may have to... procure copies of those books in the near future.

2008-06-27, 06:43 PM
Hm. So medic, soldier, demoman, heavy, sniper, spy, mayybe engineer, scout, and pyro, seem pretty much conceptualized. Excellent. What else can we do? :smallwink:

2008-06-27, 08:50 PM
I love this doctor thread!

2008-06-29, 10:42 PM
Whoa, almost let this die. Can't have that!

Well, now that we've got concepts, I'm open to suggestions for actual level-by-level gestalt builds. I'll try to put up the ones that I come up with, but that takes me a while.

2008-06-29, 11:37 PM
Well sure :). I'll work on it tonight, as it's about midnight here :P.

Spy is Dark Changeling swordsage 18//Psionic Rogue 5/Psychic assassin 10/psychic rogue 3, in my opinion.

I can do maneuvers and feats.

Sniper is Sniper Variant Scout 4/Ranger(without animal companion? Dunno) 14//Rogue 5/Assassin 3/Deepwood Sniper 10

I'm not sure about the assassin levels there, but deepwood sniper is awesome, as you may know. Take swift hunter for combining abilities, and you get 5d6 sniping from scout, very nice deepwood sniper abilities, and good ranger spellcasting, which means things like Hunter's Mercy, which synergizes terrifyingly well with Deepwood Sniper. (5* critical hits, when I cast a spell? Count me in.) Add on that "flatfooted, extra critical multiplier" for even more insanity. All he needs is a decent bow, and he can slaughter. Prehaps a +x composite longbow of collision? 1d8+x+str+5 isn't bad, especially not *5 on criticals. Also has 5d6 sneak attack. The problem is, assassin and deepwood sniper synergize poorly without sniper's eye. Also, Sniper variant scout is pretty darn useless. 5d6 for a full round action, single shot? Terrible. It fits, but I'd actually prefer some combination of full assassin and deepwood sniper. The problem is, that violates the dual PRC rule. I.e. Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Ranger 3//Ranger 8/Deepwood Sniper 10.

That has full BAB, 11'th level ranger casting (which is second level spells. Yuck) full assassin casting, 8d6 sneak attack, full deepwood sniper class features, can death attack at range with Sniper's Eye, etc. Doesn't quite have the sniper flavor in some ways, because full attacks are viable, easily, but much better.
Give it a light crossbow, rapid reload, and crossbow sniper, and it's still MAD. Needs INT, WIS, and DEX, at least. Probably some CON as well :/.

Scout is scout4/ranger 14//Sorceror6/Swiftblade 10/Sorceror, or other full casting PRC 2.

Why? Well, I was looking for something on the other side of the build, then suddenly, I recognized the solution. Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), or "Haste Personified". Very cool class. It results in mad dodging, many actions (i.e. can use greater manyshot TWICE IN A ROUND).

Needs to be human, I think.

1) Expeditious dodge (ROTW)
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Precise Shot
4) Swift Hunter (bonus)
5) Track (bonus)
6) Rapid Shot(bonus)
6) Mobility
7) Spring Attack (bonus)
7) Endurance (Bonus)
9) Improved Skirmish
10) Manyshot (bonus)
12) Greater Manyshot
13) Bounding Assault (bonus)
15) Improved Precise Shot (bonus)
15) ?
18) Practiced spellcaster?

Needs high DEX, CHA, then CON/STR/WIS.

Perpetual Options (Ex): At 9th level, you can perform even more actions with the haste spell. Instead of making one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus while under the effect of a haste spell that you cast yourself, you now have the choice of making one extra move action or one extra standard action. For example, you could make three consecutive move actions with this ability, two move actions and one standard action, one move action and two standard actions, a full attack action and a move action, a full attack action and a standard action, a full round action and a move action, or a full round action and a standard action.

Anyways, those are the easy ones for me now.

2008-06-30, 07:21 AM
That build looks cool, Arb. Though I was honestly thinking making the Scout a catfolk for the bonus speed, and just giving him the Frail flaw, to represent the Scout's low HP.

And the dual-prestige rule has long since gone out the window, at least for NPCs. Can you tell me where the Sniper variant of the scout is from, and where Greater Manyshot is?

2008-06-30, 12:45 PM
Greater manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) is in the SRD.

Sniper variant is dragon 346 :/. If you don't have that, a summary: Any time you increase skirmish damage normally as a scout, you increase sniping damage by 1d6. Sniping requires a full-round action to fire a single shot, which, if it hits, adds that bonus damage at any range.

I still prefer the other build, actually.

If you want flaws for scout frailty, and speed, Quick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) is the trait for you.

And I like that scout build, because as it is, (not counting skill points here), it has 6d6 skirmish if it moves 10 ft, 9d6 skirmish if it moves 20 ft, +4 AC if it moves 10 ft, +6 AC if it moves 20 ft, and +8 AC if it moves 40 ft. With quick, it has a 60 ft move speed, increasing to 70 ft when hasted. Essentially, some quick statistics, without items or stats...

HP: 18d8-18+18*CON
Fort: 10+CON
Ref: 12+DEX
Will: 11+WIS
BAB: +17
AC: 12+DEX (+8 if moves 40 ft :P)
Initiative: DEX+CHA
Attack Bonus: 19+DEX+bow enhancement+whatever else
When hasted (a swift action, can be spontaneosly cast): Can run on water, is under effects of Freedom of Movement, has 50% miss chance from attacks, 50% miss from targetted spells. Gains an extra standard action each round. Gains regular bonuses of haste.
If he uses a 6'th level slot to cast haste, gains effects of Time Stop for a round.
Essentially, I expect in combat:
Swift Action Haste.
Move action to move 70 feet into position.
Either Standard Action time stop (greater Heroism, Greater Invisibility), or just attack.
Standard action Greater Manyshot (At 18+DEX+bow enhancement+etc.) four arrows, each dealing 10d6+STR+bow enhancement, etc, against flatfooted AC.

Heavy might be Fighter 18//Ogre HD4/Ogre LA 2/War Hulk 10/Warblade 2.

Warblade is for the retraining, and slightly better melee. It's really a placeholder, though uncanny dodge is nice.

Feats are key here.
1) Power Attack
1) Exotic weapon proficiency (Dwarven Reciprocator)
2) Cleave
4) Weapon Specialization(Dwarven Reciprocator)
6) Point Blank Shot
6) Precise Shot
8) Greater Weapon Focus(Dwarven Reciprocator)
9) Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing, or whatever the reciprocator is)
10) Rapid Shot
12) Greater Weapon Specialization(Dwarven Reciprocator)
12) Improved Precise Shot
14) Improved Rapid Shot
15) Improved Toughness
16) ?
18) Weapon Supremacy(Dwarven Reciprocator)
18) ?

Annoyingly, war hulk synergizes poorly with the rest of the build, and you also need decent DEX. This is quite odd. But that's OK.
Also, I'm stuck on other feats for now :/.

Sniper, IMHO, should actually be Sniper Scout 4/Ranger 14//Ranger 4/Rogue 1/Assassin 3/Deepwood Sniper 10. I'm not sure you can do that with gestalt, but it improves spellcasting, gives HiPS, and is overall better, I think.

Sniper feats might be: (As a human)
1) Point Blank Shot
1) Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow)
3) Crossbow Sniper
4) Swift Hunter (Scout bonus)
6) Able Sniper (ROTW)
6) Rapid Shot(Bonus from ranger)
9) Woodland Archer (ROTW)
11) Manyshot (Ranger Bonus)
12) Rapid Reload
15) Precise Shot
15) Improved Precise Shot (Ranger Bonus)
18) Far Shot

This gives him a 540 foot range increment with a +1 light Crossbow of distance, +4 to hit on all attacks for a round if he misses a shot, 60 ft range for sneak attack, ignores cover/concealment less than total, along with net -16 to hide after sniping, and the ability to move after sniping. 1/2 dexterity to damage for each shot, 17-20 *4 crossbow, +2 to hit against flatfooted targets. 5d6 sniping damage, ability to sneak attack/snipe favored enemies, and pretty good casting. 3d6 sneak attack.

Optimizing medic might be Bard 7/Virtuoso (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207)3/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 7//Cleric 12/Heirophant 1/Cleric 5.
Take divine reach for heirophant, by the way. Also, take chain spell. This is mostly for buffing, really. Take ECS Song Of the Heart.
This build results in 17 uses of Bardic music/day, and 17 uses of virtuoso music, which can be used as bardic music. Inspire Heroics gives 2 targets +5 AC and saves, Inspire Greatness 4-target is +3 to hit, +3d10+3*CON HP, +2 on fort saves. Inspire Courage +4 :). This makes a very strong support character, with 8'th level arcane spells, and 9'th level divine spells. Used for buffing, I hope :). And healing.

Pyro, I recall you built as Warmage 6/Elemental Savant(Fire) 10/Warmage 2, or somesuch. For the other side, how about Psychic Warrior 2/Hexblade 3/Pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm)10/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Fighter 1.

That's a lot of disparate abilities. 16'th level warmage casting, CHA to saves, 2*CHA to saves against spells. Mettle. 3 bonus feats. Lousy manifesting. +15 BAB. 12d8 + 3d10 HD. Needs a lot of charisma, followed by everything but wisdom. Alternatively, trade the fighter level for a Swordsage level, which takes a BAB and bonus feat, but gives 5'th level manuvers, like Leaping Flame, Searing Blade, Firesnake, and so forth. Desert wind is nice :smallbiggrin: