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continuumc
2008-06-23, 08:48 AM
Hmm, after reading the player's handbook, I was making a wizard to try out the new character creation process..and something occured to me. I was staring down at the feat "Armor Proficiency: Leather". Then it occured to me, that I hadn't seen anything anywhere about arcane spell failure. I looked for it, and as far as I can tell, 4E has no arcane spell failure for armor. Am I right, or did I just overlook it somewhere?

Considering that we're missing mage armor, I think this question is a bit important for those of us who like wizards. :-p

SamTheCleric
2008-06-23, 08:48 AM
Nope, there is no ASF.

Build a Wizard with a Str 13 and Con 13 and build up to Scale Mail at your heart's content (Str/Con 15 if you want Plate)

:)

Saph
2008-06-23, 08:54 AM
Hmm, after reading the player's handbook, I was making a wizard to try out the new character creation process..and something occured to me. I was staring down at the feat "Armor Proficiency: Leather". Then it occured to me, that I hadn't seen anything anywhere about arcane spell failure. I looked for it, and as far as I can tell, 4E has no arcane spell failure for armor. Am I right, or did I just overlook it somewhere?

You're right.

For starting wizards, Armour Proficiency: Leather is an absolute no-brainer. +2 AC for one feat is an amazingly good deal compared to how mediocre most heroic tier feats are, and wearing leather armour as opposed to cloth gives you no penalties at all. There's literally no reason not to take it, and thus no reason for any class to wear cloth.

- Saph

Holocron Coder
2008-06-23, 08:55 AM
Aye. The closest thing you get to ASF is the -2 to attack rolls for nonproficiency with wearing armor (since attack rolls are more significant for wizards, now).

Tengu
2008-06-23, 09:10 AM
You're right.

For starting wizards, Armour Proficiency: Leather is an absolute no-brainer. +2 AC for one feat is an amazingly good deal compared to how mediocre most heroic tier feats are, and wearing leather armour as opposed to cloth gives you no penalties at all. There's literally no reason not to take it, and thus no reason for any class to wear cloth.

- Saph

And on top of that, you get to look really cool.

disorder
2008-06-23, 10:30 AM
Nope, there is no ASF.

Build a Wizard with a Str 13 and Con 13 and build up to Scale Mail at your heart's content (Str/Con 15 if you want Plate)

:)

True, but anything heavier than hide armor would be really unappealing to wizards (even if for some reason they had high Str and Con), since they'd lose that big Intelligence modifier to AC.

SamTheCleric
2008-06-23, 10:32 AM
True, but anything heavier than hide armor would be really unappealing to wizards (even if for some reason they had high Str and Con), since they'd lose that big Intelligence modifier to AC.

This is true.

However, my favorite armor in the game is Razor Scale Armor... defensive porcupine spikes! :smallbiggrin:

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-23, 10:47 AM
There's literally no reason not to take it, and thus no reason for any class to wear cloth.


For that matter, since "cloth armour" basically just means "ordinary clothes" in the new edition (it literally gives +0 AC unless it's magical), there's no real reason to wear "Cloth armour" anyway, whether you're proficient in other armours or not.

ImperiousLeader
2008-06-23, 10:52 AM
The only reason to go back to cloth armour is that there are a few really nice magic enhancements that only work on cloth.

Tengu
2008-06-23, 11:11 AM
For that matter, since "cloth armour" basically just means "ordinary clothes" in the new edition (it literally gives +0 AC unless it's magical), there's no real reason to wear "Cloth armour" anyway, whether you're proficient in other armours or not.

Of course, such character would be technically naked...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 11:25 AM
Of course, such character would be technically naked...

Obligatory OotS Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html) :smallbiggrin:

JaxGaret
2008-06-24, 04:30 AM
The only reason to go back to cloth armour is that there are a few really nice magic enhancements that only work on cloth.

This is the reason for why cloth armor isn't useless. If you look at the magic item lists under armor, you'll notice that each magic enhancement type only works on certain armors; there are some that only work with cloth.

Starbuck_II
2008-06-24, 09:44 AM
This is the reason for why cloth armor isn't useless. If you look at the magic item lists under armor, you'll notice that each magic enhancement type only works on certain armors; there are some that only work with cloth.

Bloodthread is really nice: bonus AC and stuff property while bloodied.
And lets face it, at lower levels: it will happen.

Saph
2008-06-24, 09:53 AM
This is the reason for why cloth armor isn't useless. If you look at the magic item lists under armor, you'll notice that each magic enhancement type only works on certain armors; there are some that only work with cloth.

Yeah, but you're playing catchup here.

The special property of the enchanted cloth armour has to not only be better than the permanent +2 AC of leather, but it also has to be better than the +2 AC and the special property of the enchanted leather armour that you would have gotten put together.

So unless the cloth enchantments are especially powerful and the leather enchantments are especially weak, you're always better off with leather.

The same applies to chainmail vs. scale; assuming you meet the prerequisites and have a spare feat, there's little reason to use chain. (In the heroic tier scale over chain means +1 AC and less armour check penalty; in the paragon tier scale over chain means +1 AC and +1 speed as well.)

- Saph

TheEmerged
2008-06-24, 12:21 PM
Yeah, this was one of my "That Can't Be Right..." moments too. Note that Warlocks (the other controller class) actually start out with Leather proficiency.

The flip side? It's more expensive to get the higher levels of armor proficiency now. Under 3.0/3.5, you could score them all by taking a level of fighter or psychic warrior (my 3.0 psion did the later). You can't do that now, you have to burn feats and given the way that skill training is handled by feats now you might find yourself much shorter on feats than expected (it's certainly been the case on every character I've theory-leveled so far).

Having said that, as others noted there's no reason to go any higher than Hide, and chances are anything above Leather is going to have diminishing returns for a wizard.

THAC0
2008-06-24, 12:34 PM
@Emerged

Aren't Warlocks Strikers, not controllers?

Baxbart
2008-06-24, 12:38 PM
@Emerged

Aren't Warlocks Strikers, not controllers?

They are indeed. Wizards are the only available controllers at the moment, at least until WotC release the next set of books.

kc0bbq
2008-06-24, 01:31 PM
Yeah, but you're playing catchup here.

The special property of the enchanted cloth armour has to not only be better than the permanent +2 AC of leather, but it also has to be better than the +2 AC and the special property of the enchanted leather armour that you would have gotten put together. It is. It's +2 AC and +2 on saves when Bloodied. +2 on saves is huge.

Ghostphase armor is pretty nice, too.

On higher levels I don't think any Leather enchantment can compete with Mantle of the Seventh Wind for a caster type.

RTGoodman
2008-06-24, 02:13 PM
The flip side? It's more expensive to get the higher levels of armor proficiency now. Under 3.0/3.5, you could score them all by taking a level of fighter or psychic warrior (my 3.0 psion did the later). You can't do that now, you have to burn feats and given the way that skill training is handled by feats now you might find yourself much shorter on feats than expected (it's certainly been the case on every character I've theory-leveled so far).

Yeah, but in 4E you get a LOT of feats. Like, 18 by the time you hit 20th level, plus another if you're Human or your class grants you some. That's definitely enough to pick up a couple of Armor feats, Expanded Spellbook if you're a Wizard, maybe a couple of Skill feats if you're into that, a couple of Racial feats, and at least one multiclass feat (since they're worth it for almost everyone).

Conners
2008-06-24, 02:41 PM
Alright!! Now I can make that Spellsword character without him sucking horribly (to my horror, someone alerted me I was better off with a straight-forward Bard then ll my effort into the spellsword PrC....)!

Myatar_Panwar
2008-06-24, 02:49 PM
Not really relating to ASF but to armor, I cannot for the life of me find out anything on the Armors listed under the original, like "Godplate". It just says "special". Any help?

marjan
2008-06-24, 02:51 PM
Not really relating to ASF but to armor, I cannot for the life of me find out anything on the Armors listed under the original, like "Godplate". It just says "special". Any help?

Armors like Godplate have a special requirement that they can only be made with +X or higher bonus, so their price is listed under the magic armors section.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-06-24, 02:55 PM
But does having the name Godplate do anything? Or is it just what armor of that type with that bonus would typically be?

marjan
2008-06-24, 03:01 PM
But does having the name Godplate do anything? Or is it just what armor of that type with that bonus would typically be?

Plate armor gives you 8 + enhancement bonus to AC, while godplate gives you 14 + enhancement bonus to AC. Basically as soon as plate armor reaches +4 enhancement bonus it becomes warplate and when it reaches +6 bonus it becomes godplate.

Tengu
2008-06-24, 03:02 PM
All plate armor that has at least +4 enchantment is Warplate, and all that has at least +6 is Godplate.

TheEmerged
2008-06-24, 03:04 PM
RE: Warlock = Strikers. Okay, I stand corrected. I was under the impression the new classes were supposed to be "paired", 2 examples of each of the archetypes.

On the issue of the number of feats? You get a lot more, that's for certain. As I said though, on the five character's I've "theory-leveled" though I've yet to be able to work in all the feats I want. But then my skill interest probably figures into that :D

Myatar_Panwar
2008-06-24, 03:40 PM
Whoa whoa whoa. I get that once plate gets its +4 bonus its now warplate and all that stuff. But is there really a difference between +4 Fullplate and normal Warplate? Would +5 Fullplate be considered +1 Warplate?

And ok now Im really confused. It says you need a +4 bonus to get a +1 from cloth? Ok I think Im starting to kind of understand.... so +1 cloth = useless? Very confused...

Pinnacle
2008-06-24, 03:58 PM
No, +4 Fullplate is always +4 Warplate. When you hit that amount of enhancement, the base armor improves by a few points.

Which makes the descriptions that come with the special armors really weird, really.

mostlyharmful
2008-06-24, 04:24 PM
ASF has always been one of those things that bugs me. I've done renactment, pratted about in leather and chain and scale and plate, and it's only for scale upwards that I felt my movement was actually hindered. Below that its just that it took more effort so you couldn't do it all day the way you can in a boiled jerkin or a chain shirt.

It's always stuck me as one of those forced balencing factors that have little to no actual fluff justification (note the difference between justification and explanation), along with class based Hitdice (after character creation the Wiz d4 and the Barb d12 have very similar lifestyles).

Anyway, good ridance to bad rubish.

hamishspence
2008-06-24, 04:25 PM
thats what the ritual is for. When you take Hide armour, and use Enchant Item to upgrade it to +6 hide armour the ritual "scours the hide with elemental forces"

Assume the race refences refer to the race that first learned how to do it, and does it most commonly: you don't actually have to be a member of the race to do it.