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Grug
2008-06-23, 02:38 PM
So my friends and I were running the demo adventure in the back of the DMG, and we reached the Skull Skull room. The rogue had stolen a sling from the first kobolds they killed, and was using it to make sneak attacks.

Here was how I handled it: As a move action, he could move half his speed behind the coffins and make a stealth check, and his target would make a perception check to see him. The kobolds failed every time for obvious reasons (+1 vs +11). Then he could attack the kobold with his sling and deal sneak damage. I also said that as the standard action, he could use deft strike to climb up on the coffin and still get sneak.

Is this correct? Have I made a mistake? We're all getting used to the new rules.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 02:50 PM
So my friends and I were running the demo adventure in the back of the DMG, and we reached the Skull Skull room. The rogue had stolen a sling from the first kobolds they killed, and was using it to make sneak attacks.

Here was how I handled it: As a move action, he could move half his speed behind the coffins and make a stealth check, and his target would make a perception check to see him. The kobolds failed every time for obvious reasons (+1 vs +11). Then he could attack the kobold with his sling and deal sneak damage. I also said that as the standard action, he could use deft strike to climb up on the coffin and still get sneak.

Is this correct? Have I made a mistake? We're all getting used to the new rules.

So, read the "Stealth" skill and note all of the penalties to the stealth check, and how you must either have cover or be concealed to hide. For simplicity's sake, I would say that hiding behind a waist-high coffin is equivalent to dropping prone, so he can hide as a Free Action, but needs to use a Move Action to stand up to make his attack. However, based on the list on PHB 280, I would say this only works once, since the kobolds are now aware of where you are. Now, if you were able to attack from Concealment (so, up in a tree or hidden by mist) then you could probably try to re-hide each time.

So, attacking around corners = no multiple sneak attack; attacking from the shadows = multiple sneak attacks with hiding.

Grug
2008-06-23, 02:55 PM
Well, he was a Halfling. I'll houserule that he has to move at least one square behind cover to gain sneak attack. Although does the "know where he is" argument still apply when the kobolds are also fighting his friend?

LeZebra
2008-06-23, 03:01 PM
Hi Grug.

I am playing a rogue as well and am trying to figure out the nuances of Stealth myself. I am no authority, but we played it that, so long as you have cover between you and a target or targets, you can make a Stealth check vs their Perception check to remain hidden. Remember, that if you move more than 2 squares when attempting to use Stealth, you take a -5 penalty. If you are successfully hidden from the target and attack them, then they grant Combat Advantage, and yes, you could then use Sneak Attack against those Kobolds. Remember that, per the Stealth description, if you attack while hidden, you are no longer hidden. (Action points can be a real jazz here because you could potentially move while hidden, make an attack, and use an action point to hide again, either by moving to another square or just hiding where you made the attack)

Regarding your second question, I would have to say that the rogue could indeed use the "move 2 squares" to climb the coffin before attacking again. If the rogue loses cover or concealment from the target he is attacking while doing so however, then he couldn't do so while remaining hidden (I would say the specific rules of Stealth overrule the general rules for Deft Strike remember, you *need* to have cover or concealment). There are several powers that bend these rules in the Rogue exploits, such as Chameleon and Shadow Stride, but those are of much higher level and require yet another Stealth check.

Hope that helps Grug

LeZebra
2008-06-23, 03:07 PM
So, read the "Stealth" skill and note all of the penalties to the stealth check, and how you must either have cover or be concealed to hide. For simplicity's sake, I would say that hiding behind a waist-high coffin is equivalent to dropping prone, so he can hide as a Free Action, but needs to use a Move Action to stand up to make his attack. However, based on the list on PHB 280, I would say this only works once, since the kobolds are now aware of where you are. Now, if you were able to attack from Concealment (so, up in a tree or hidden by mist) then you could probably try to re-hide each time.

So, attacking around corners = no multiple sneak attack; attacking from the shadows = multiple sneak attacks with hiding.

I don't really see where you are getting this justification from the rules. It is my belief that, just because enemies saw where you were when you just became hidden doesn't mean that you can only use Stealth once. If you are behind a tree, you attack, and then you use Stealth to hide behind the tree, you are then technically hidden (assuming you beat their Perception check). How would they know if you moved to the square next to you that also has a tree in it (therefore still providing you with cover), or if you stayed in that same spot?

If you duck behind a low wall and beat their Perception with your Stealth check, sure they know where you were when they last saw you...but what is stopping you from moving alongside that low wall, and next round popping up to attack from a different position? I would think that's an ingenious use of Stealth, Combat Advantage, and Sneak Attack...and frankly, the whole point.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 03:31 PM
I don't really see where you are getting this justification from the rules. It is my belief that, just because enemies saw where you were when you just became hidden doesn't mean that you can only use Stealth once. If you are behind a tree, you attack, and then you use Stealth to hide behind the tree, you are then technically hidden (assuming you beat their Perception check). How would they know if you moved to the square next to you that also has a tree in it (therefore still providing you with cover), or if you stayed in that same spot?

If you duck behind a low wall and beat their Perception with your Stealth check, sure they know where you were when they last saw you...but what is stopping you from moving alongside that low wall, and next round popping up to attack from a different position? I would think that's an ingenious use of Stealth, Combat Advantage, and Sneak Attack...and frankly, the whole point.

Meh, forget what I said. Some parts from the PHB.


The following situations give an attacker combat
advantage against a defender.

Unable to see the attacker (page 281)
Unaware of you (page 188)


Cover or Concealment: Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check. You have to maintain cover or concealment to remain unnoticed. If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required).

So there you go. As long as you don't break cover (like, by getting on top of the coffin) you can attack from concealment. Also, note the Encounter use of Bluff.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-23, 04:26 PM
So there you go. As long as you don't break cover (like, by getting on top of the coffin) you can attack from concealment. Also, note the Encounter use of Bluff.

And to top this off, various low-level rogue powers allow him to sneak through plain sight and remain hidden.

LeZebra
2008-06-23, 04:38 PM
I was going to continue some of my questions regarding these powers Kurald in a new thread, but since you brought them up, I feel a little confused about the differences between Chameleon and Shadow Stride.

I guess to boil it all down, my main question is, do you believe that you can "lose cover" for yourself in the power Chameleon?

Trigger:
"You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an opponent"

Does this mean that, if you are hiding around a corner from an orc, can you just step out into the open, breaking your cover and therefore your Stealth, enact this power, and if your second Stealth check is successful, you can just scurry over to the other side of the hall where there is cover again and the orc would never see you?

What is the difference between this and Shadow Stride?

Could any compare and contrast these two powers for me?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 04:38 PM
And to top this off, various low-level rogue powers allow him to sneak through plain sight and remain hidden.

Lowest I see is Chameleon, which is a LV 6 Utility. What're you talking about?

EDIT:

I was going to continue some of my questions regarding these powers Kurald in a new thread, but since you brought them up, I feel a little confused about the differences between Chameleon and Shadow Stride.

So Chameleon is an Immediate Reaction, while Shadow Stride (Utility 10) is a Move Action. For Chameleon, this gives you a second chance to retain your hidden status, if the NPC moves around your cover or burns away the leaves. Shadow Stride also allows you to ignore the -5 penalty for moving more than 2 squares, while if you tried the same with Chameleon, you'd still suffer the penalty.

LeZebra
2008-06-23, 04:50 PM
Good observations. But, by the definition of the Trigger, does your cover have to disappear for the interrupt to happen? Or does the orc have to come around the corner, thereby negating your hidden status?

*Could you*, for instance, voluntarily "lose cover", make the Stealth check, and find cover or concealment by the end of the next round? you think?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 05:00 PM
Good observations. But, by the definition of the Trigger, does your cover have to disappear for the interrupt to happen? Or does the orc have to come around the corner, thereby negating your hidden status?

*Could you*, for instance, voluntarily "lose cover", make the Stealth check, and find cover or concealment by the end of the next round? you think?

As soon as you break concealment, Chameleon triggers. So yes, you could use it like Shadow Stride, but if you move more than 2 squares, you take a -5 penalty to that check.

Trog
2008-06-23, 05:02 PM
I think Chameleon lets you lose cover (by attacking someone with a ranged attack, say) then lets you make another stealth check against anyone that had uninterrupted line of sight to you. If you succeed you go back into hiding without being seen. (An arrow flies from somewhere to your left and hits you. You turn and see no one) Under the normal rules you would be seen. (He's behind that particular tree. You saw him break cover to fire at you.)

holywhippet
2008-06-23, 05:06 PM
I'd rule that popping out of cover and taking a shot would count as a sneak attack since the kobolds don't know exactly where you are going to spring out from. Climbing up on the coffin would give them a chance to notice you as you are moving into plain sight and possibly making noise in the process.

That being said, as soon as they noticed sling bullets coming from behind one of the coffins a couple of them should have broken off to target the halfling.

LeZebra
2008-06-23, 05:15 PM
As soon as you break concealment, Chameleon triggers. So yes, you could use it like Shadow Stride, but if you move more than 2 squares, you take a -5 penalty to that check.

Ah, but then there is the 2nd level Utility Power Fleeting Ghost, that negates penalties to Stealth for moving your speed. So, in a way, if you are willing to take both Utility Powers, it's a lot like having Shadow Stride...almost even better since Chameleon is an Interrupt and SS is a move action.

no?

LeZebra
2008-06-23, 05:18 PM
I think Chameleon lets you lose cover (by attacking someone with a ranged attack, say) then lets you make another stealth check against anyone that had uninterrupted line of sight to you. If you succeed you go back into hiding without being seen. (An arrow flies from somewhere to your left and hits you. You turn and see no one) Under the normal rules you would be seen. (He's behind that particular tree. You saw him break cover to fire at you.)

I think I'd have to disagree here, as the trigger specifically says you lose cover or concealment. It doesn't say if you attack or if your Stealth is unsuccessful or negated. Though I think this is a cool idea, technically, if you are getting cover from a tree and successfully hiding behind it, attacking makes combatants aware of you...you do not lose cover.

thanks, everyone for all your great feedback...have to go play my rogue now for a couple hours!

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 05:35 PM
Ah, but then there is the 2nd level Utility Power Fleeting Ghost, that negates penalties to Stealth for moving your speed. So, in a way, if you are willing to take both Utility Powers, it's a lot like having Shadow Stride...almost even better since Chameleon is an Interrupt and SS is a move action.

no?

Well, not quite. First of all, it eats up two of your utility power slots. Secondly, Shadow Stride includes a full move, so it takes no more actions to do than Chameleon.

But yes, you could do that.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-23, 05:49 PM
Lowest I see is Chameleon, which is a LV 6 Utility. What're you talking about?

Yes, and level 6 is low-level, so what is the problem here?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-06-23, 05:54 PM
Yes, and level 6 is low-level, so what is the problem here?

No problem, just surprised. When I think "low level" I've always thought five or less, and since I only saw 1 power and it started at six, I thought I must have missed some.

Grug
2008-06-23, 06:34 PM
The whole point of moving ontop of the coffin is Deft Strike, which specifically lets you shift two squares before attack. I would figure that would negate the cover the kobold would get.

And if you check the advanture, the kobolds were on top of a ledge, and the only way down was blocked by a fighter and a paladin.

So It looks like what happened followed the rules. And the way to negate it is to get into melee or win your perception check.

erikun
2008-06-23, 06:56 PM
As a DM, I would allow the Sneak Attack in this case. The movement with Deft Strike is part of the attack, not a seperate action on it's own - you move and attack, not move then attack.

If you had combat advantage when you used the attack, it doesn't make any sense to say that the attack "broke" the combat advantage by making the target aware of the attacker - getting stabbed in the kidneys makes the target aware, but that doesn't mean they were aware of the attack beforehand (which is the important part).

Grug
2008-06-23, 07:06 PM
You could say it's like hiding behind a corner for someone to pass, then leaping out and stabbing them in the kidney before they can react.