OOTS #570 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ashtar]

Wonderful twist!

[Aurorax]

Doh would have thought that the memory spell would go away with the oracle's death.

[banjo1985]

Nice. I'd forgotten about the memory wipe at the edge of the Oracles territory, guess Belkar just lucked out!

I guess it must be a permanent effect, or it would have faded with the Oracle.

[Sjiggie]

Love the memory loss spell. Nice comic

[sikyon]

Argh! should have seen that comming!

[dogmac]

Poor Haley. So near and yet so far......

I liked her forthrightness there very very much.

[Glorfindel]

Nice comic :) I wonder who's gonna tell them it is already activated.

P.S. the comic is #570, not #470.

[Estelindis]

Harsh! From the Giant's point of view, that's a clever way of keeping Belkar in the party while still showing that Haley would have booted him out in the kind of circumstance that really showed him not to be an asset to the group. Good comic!

[FMArthur]

Damn, that memory wipe caught me without warning. Completely forgot about it. Too bad Belkar didn't get tossed out of the party or even remember how close he came.

[Haleyintraining]

Even if Haley, Belkar, and Celia don't remember what happened, I don't think the memory spell would wipe Roy's mind, because he is dead. So my prediction is after he gets raised he tells Haley and she is either shocked or angry. Also, can the mark of justice be activated again, or is it a one time thing?

[InfiniteMiller]

Gah! So CLOSE!

Nex time Belkar! NEXT TIME!

[Haruspex]

That memory charm saved Belkar's membership and probably his life. Wonder how long he can last like that? It's even worse since now they don't know why he's puking. Nice to see that Mr. Scruffy hopped out of the cart to join him. Who says cat's aren't loyal?

This also means that no one will know that the oracle is dead unless the information can be acquired from outside the valley. Don't think the oracle cares though (he's dead).

[Blackdrop]

I like how Belkar got upset that they were going to leave them behind. It's a cool view into Belkar's mindset.

[Kwarkpudding]

Nice, loved it.
Yes, I hope Roy at least remembers it, because it would have been an even bigger waste of time.

And it's good to see that Haley doesn't take everything from Belkar, even though she forgot it afterwarths :smallsigh:

[Mc. Lovin']

Uh Oh! How long will it take Belkar to figure out taht the MOJ has been activated? He doesnt know he needs a cleric :smalleek:

And will Roy's memory get wiped when he leaves the valley, to go back to the afterlife?

[Zolem]

How did all you people forget the memeory wipe? It was rementioned not even 5 comics ago? I totaly saw this entire episode comeing. The good news is, Belkar won't get better, and since it's a MoJ, Clerics can tell (spell description) and will refuse to heal him.

[Fenix]

Deja vu again :)

[technoextreme]

Poor Haley. So near and yet so far......

I liked her forthrightness there very very much.
The more I thought about the more I think Belkar did Haley a favor. He was responsible for more deaths than Belkar and basically screwed the Order of the Stick Over.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Ooooh. I like.

All the more because there is a veritable * storm at work today. Oh, for a memory charm in our office...

[Incendius]

The more I thought about the more I think Belkar did Haley a favor. He was responsible for more deaths than Belkar and basically screwed the Order of the Stick Over.

No, he screwed Belkar over.

He even tried to tell Roy that he was asking the wrong question, so as to tell him to go defend Azure city.

I'm betting that based on that scene he probably can't just tell someone the future, it has to be from a question, and Roy simply asked a question he couldn't actually help with.

Everyone else asked inane questions really, and honestly, in my place, I would have answered them as he did.

[BenjCano]

No, he screwed Belkar over.
Everyone else asked inane questions really, and honestly, in my place, I would have answered them as he did.

In fairness, Haley's question was awfully pertinent.

[Swordguy]

D'oh!

So VERY close!

What'll be funny is when Roy gets rezzed and hassles Belkar about the MoJ activating, and Belkar not having any idea what he's talking about.


...for that matter, we can't assume Roy isn't there watching and listening when Haley kicks Belkar out. He was there, and we haven't seen him return to the afterlife. I wonder if he'll want it to stick once he gets un-dead-ed.

[technoextreme]

He even tried to tell Roy that he was asking the wrong question, so as to tell him to go defend Azure city.

It takes a special sort of moral ambiguity to do that. And one would be sent to jail for murder if one claimed that.

[Yendor]

Damn you, reset button! We almost had him!

Nice to see Haley taking charge temporarily. And Celia not showing him any sympathy either.

Also, totally called the costume change.

[Ninja]

Damn you, reset button! We almost had him!

oh come on dont be so hard on "Death's Li'l Helper"..... he's the one that makes me laugh the most.... killin' that gnome.. hillarious... and for this comic... meh... nothin special... it just showed us that "The Belkster" is gonna be here for a long time...

[elonin]

Great comic, Giant. The memory affecting spelll was great for letting Haley vent on Belkar without actually have them break up. It's going to suck for anyone who goes to visit the oracle in the future. Unless there were oracles in training.

[Caractacus]

It takes a special sort of moral ambiguity to do that. And one would be sent to jail for murder if one claimed that.

I disagree. He isn't supposed to actively help everyone - and he's supposed to be an evil kobold with powers from Tiamat.

Like ALL oracles ever mentioned, he gives true answers to the exact questions asked. He is in a special trance for that moment and can only answer what he is asked. Given that he IS a kobold and evil etc, I think he was remarkably straight with the Oots.

Also, HE killed no one. He told Belkar that he would cause the death of one (or more) of a number of the people Belkar listed. Belkar is the morally ambiguous one here.

Oh, wait, no he isn't.. :smalltongue:

[ref]

Dang, so close. Belkar should have been left there to die a painful death. Oh well.

[Blaznak]

Oh! too funny! I loved it!
Later

[technoextreme]

Also, HE killed no one.

Nope. Sorry. Your logic does not work. There are people living in jail that did exactly what that Kobold did assuming that he even knew they were going to die.

[Ceaon]

When I first heard of the MoJ, I never would've guessed Belkar wouldn't even remember setting it off. :smalltongue:

[5tephen]

That was just far too good.

It kind of spoils the Oracle's revenge for him, though. Well, until they find out later what happened.

[Adventurer]

Damn, that memory wipe caught me without warning. Completely forgot about it.
Memory wipe? What memory wipe?:smallconfused:



(:smalltongue:)

[kierthos]

That was just far too good.

It kind of spoils the Oracle's revenge for him, though. Well, until they find out later what happened.
Ah, but the Oracle must have known that the memory spell would cause this to happen (so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me).

[Starknight]

I figured that the memory charm would wipe out the visit to the Oracle. It will be interesting to see if Roy's memory will be affected when(ever) he gets raised. He will probably still keep Belkar in the party, because it was mentioned that Belkar is LESS evil with Roy the OOTS than without. Roy would know this. Although I can see Roy messing with the Belkster by saying the command word.

Starknight

New member in the Playground

[Dark Wolf]

That's hilarious.

Roy notwithstanding it would be funny if they go back to the Oracle someday only to discover he got killed at some time.

Funnier if they go back, a new Oracle is there and they don't know the difference.

[Liwen]

I think Celia is the Character that has gone trought the highest number of costumes since the start of this comic, captain Scoundrelé being a distant second. Note that Elan naked does not count has a costume.

[Paladin29]

I like the expression in Belkar´s face when Haley said to him that he must leave the order... i know now that the Belkster really like to be with Haley, Elan, Durkon, V and Roy, they are their friends (in the Belkar sick way) :smallsmile:

[Kinneus]

Wow. Quite the complicated little plot twist. Belkar's Mark has been activated, but nobody remembers it. I have no idea how this will be resolved... which means I'm really excited to see what happens next, heh.

[pendell]

Well, I have to say, that was some masterful storytelling there.

Not only has Belkar suffered payback, but the memory charm keeps Haley from throwing Belkar under the bus which he certainly deserves at this point. Elegant, very elegant.


I have only one request.

please please please please please PLEASE

Do NOT let Belkar puke up his guts for the next 100+ strips. It was funny once. It will get old very very fast.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Holammer]

Passing up a chance to search for treasure, what's wrong with Haley! :smallamused:
Apart from the story twist I was highly amused of the look of scruffy when he makes the reflex save against Belkar's vomit, something the girls failed.

[Saph]

Argh! I was just thinking we might finally get some resolution. I wanted to see the consequences of Belkar getting thrown out. Now we're practically back to square one!

- Saph

[Eran of Arcadia]

I have been disliking Belkar more and more (as a character, not his presence in the strip) and hoped he would get what he deserved. Oh well. I guess I get to see more attempts to justify his behavior.

[kinch]

I have only one request.

please please please please please PLEASE

Do NOT let Belkar puke up his guts for the next 100+ strips. It was funny once. It will get old very very fast.

I highly doubt that'll be the case. I have a feeling that the vomitting is just the tip of the iceberg, that it's only the first step in the chain of effects that activating the Mark of Justice has set off.
For example, notice how Belkar was first inflicted with a great deal of physical (possibly searing) pain, then consecutive, uncontrollable vomitting, and now less frequent vomitting supplemented by headache.

I think it's reasonable to theorize that Belkar's physical state will steadily deteriorate over the course of the next strips, and that the final stage of the Mark's effect will be terminal.
I'd say it's unlikely that it'll get that far, but then again, the Giant likes to surprise us, and after all, it's no secret that medieval punishment was rather cruel.
A slow, painful death wouldn't be unrealistic.

Anyway, just my thoughts.
The comic was great - as usual.
I can't believe I actually forgot about the memory charm. :smallconfused: :smallfrown:

[Trazoi]

On the one hand, Belkar lucks out from getting kicked out of the Order and having to survive on his cursed own.

On the other, he's now incapacitated and doesn't get the perk of knowing that there's no reason now not to kill with impunity.

I'm not sure which is the worse fate for Belkar...

[eggamagga]

Yea! Haley is back in her original armor! No more black goth armor!

[TigerHunter]

...I'll admit, I never even thought about what would happen when the memory charm took effect.

[khourytamarisk]

If the Oracle is dead, and there's that waiting area for the dead (which Roy can already visit), maybe Roy will have the chance to ask the Oracle a few questions before the Oracle is resurrected?

The Oracle might even be able to answer them directly, if the "must be vague and easily misinterpreted" prophecy clause doesn't effect what an Oracle can say after death...

[Pandabear]

hahahahaha! Not exactly unexpected, except for being kicked out straight before the charm kicks in.. :smallsmile:

[DanShive]

I love this one. Haley finally does something about Belkar, but the memory spell effectively undoes it. The plot continues, Belkar remains, but it still manages to boost Haley's character in my mind.

[HellFireXS]

First I would like to say I should have seen the memory wipe coming... but I didn’t (was too caught up in the story to remember that detail) so for me it was a great twist.

Second I would like to say that I know some of you don't like Belkar but he is one of my favorite characters and a main character in the story and even though he deserves punishment (and he’s getting it) he should not die (permanently anyway) or actually be kicked out of the Order (or not forever anyway)

Belkar is a great character, he shakes up the good (which gets boring) and adds a lot, he is getting what you all wished for, his punishment (very sick) and that’s enough, he should never ever stop being a main character though I like him too much.

[Veg Sorbet]

I like the expression in Belkar´s face when Haley said to him that he must leave the order... i know now that the Belkster really like to be with Haley, Elan, Durkon, V and Roy, they are their friends (in the Belkar sick way) :smallsmile:

I think it's far more likely that he's thinking "you can't just leave me here in this condition - You have to take me with you so I can get better!"

[CGM3]

If the Oracle is dead, and there's that waiting area for the dead (which Roy can already visit), maybe Roy will have the chance to ask the Oracle a few questions before the Oracle is resurrected?

The Oracle might even be able to answer them directly, if the "must be vague and easily misinterpreted" prophecy clause doesn't effect what an Oracle can say after death...

Doubtful; if the Oracle really was evil (as seems to be the consensus), he'll go to a different afterlife.

And Tiamat will activate the next Oracle to give ambiguous prophecies that help foment chaos in the world. "In every generation, there is a Chosen One--"... no, wait, that's a different milieu... well, the basic principle's the same. :smallcool:

[Craig1f]

Wow that was brilliant. Did anyone see that coming?

[PaladinFreak]

Haley is pretty darn awesome. I am so glad she did that. I am also glad that Belkar gets to stay (because he's funny, most of the time), but it's nice him get his just desserts.

[DigoDragon]

Funnier if they go back, a new Oracle is there and they don't know the difference.

With the way that memory charm works it seems this would be the case if they return. And it would be funny, wouldn't it? :smallsmile: It's like how the "Dread Pirate Roberts" myth worked from The Princess Bride.

[Warren Dew]

What'll be funny is when Roy gets rezzed and hassles Belkar about the MoJ activating, and Belkar not having any idea what he's talking about.

Assuming Roy remembers ... what will be even more funny is Belkar's reaction to not being able to remember killing the oracle. Or, he'll think that the oracle was a halfling he didn't want to kill.

I think it's icing on the cake for the oracle that Belkar won't remember what happened. From Belkar's point of view, the mark activated and he didn't even get the pleasure of killing someone for it!

I like the expression on the cat's face when Belkar throws up on him.

[Roderick_BR]

Hah! Nice comic. A lot of people was betting if the memory swipe would work or not. It worked in Belkar's favor this time.
Yeah, it'll be a while before they find out Belkar is sick because of the MoJ. When they do, though, Haley'll be able to put Roy in one of her bags, getting a lighter load, since Belkar didn't let her, afraid that being tossed there would be considered "too far" from Roy.

[Solara]

Nope. Sorry. Your logic does not work. There are people living in jail that did exactly what that Kobold did assuming that he even knew they were going to die.

I'm not even really sure what you're arguing here... :smallconfused: What horrible thing did the kobold do again? (other than being kind of an insulting jerk of course, but last I checked that's neither a jailable nor a killable offense...)

[Mauve Shirt]

Haha, I almost thought Belkar was about to be abandoned, then I read the strip title. Hooray memory charm!
Since he doesn't remember activating his mark, will he continue to be good in cities and towns?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

awesome :smallbiggrin:
didn't saw it coming... silly me!

[Deepkicker]

Outstanding. I bet if Roy witnessed that he won't be pleased.

[chibibar]

that was awesome.

Good ol memory wipe saves the day.

Theory: since Roy is already dead, he might lose some of the memory when he comes back to life why? magic is funny that way. It doesn't have to follow logic.... its MAGIC!

[dish]

Haha, I almost thought Belkar was about to be abandoned, then I read the strip title. Hooray memory charm!
Since he doesn't remember activating his mark, will he continue to be good in cities and towns?

I thought the point of the activated MOJ was that he's going to be too sick to even consider killing anyone - anywhere. And it doesn't matter whether he knows that it's because of the MOJ or not.

[HOLEkevin]

Totally great page. My favorite notion is that Belkar won't be looking for a curse removal for his sickness until he's suffered a good long while.

BTW, I loved Haley kicking Belkar out of the group.

[HUMVEE Driver]

So what is the point of the memory loss spell? I get that you remember the answers to the questions you asked, but why blank out everything else that happened there? Seems kind of stupid to me, but what do you expect from a fancy-pants giberish-speaking inconclusive-to-his-death kobold oracle?

[Solara]

edit: double post, ignore. (forums is sloooow today)

[Dunesen]

Well that's two questions answered. Haley was going to boot Belkar, and they remember nothing now.

It's frustrating the way both get answered. Yes, it's nice that Haley finally cut Belkar off, but then they remember nothing and it's all for naught.

But I think it's building somewhere. People have already raised the question of Roy remembering everything because the memory charm doesn't affect him. So here's my theory:

If Belkar had been cut loose, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere. He would have wandered around, getting sicker and sicker, and eventually die. Or he'd get rescued somehow and become a villain, trying to get revenge on Haley (and probably everyone else).

But since he's still with the team, he won't turn heel. Roy comes back to life and tells him about the MoJ going off and about Haley trying to get rid of Belkar because he's undependable. Belkar will be angered at almost getting expelled from the team, and also for not remembering killing the Oracle. But then he'll actually think about what almost happened, and maybe, in some way, he'll actually change. He'll consider that he actually does want to be on the team, and he'll start acting slightly more concerned about how his actions reflect on himself amongst his teammates.

Just a thought.

[Austran]

I totally forgot the Memory Spell! I was beggining to think that Belkar would want revenge (if he survived) and become some kind of recurring villain.
But now: how the curse will be lifted? I don't know if a cleric can see the difference between a normal (or magical) disease and a curse, so Remove Disease won't work.

[silvadel]

Of course getting rid of belkar like that could count as an evil act when haley meets her maker and she wouldnt even remember it (we saw from roy's thing that un-remembered events still count).

Plus this kind of cements it -- Mr Scruffy *IS* Belkar's ranger companion animal. 100% loyalty like that from a cat .....

[Starlong]

Funniest. Comic. Ever.

[Sime]

Futurama reference? (Belkar saying "I really don't feel good, and my head hurts too" like Bender).

Or it's just my imagination?

[TDG]

So what is the point of the memory loss spell? I get that you remember the answers to the questions you asked, but why blank out everything else that happened there? Seems kind of stupid to me, but what do you expect from a fancy-pants giberish-speaking inconclusive-to-his-death kobold oracle?

Quoth the Kobold
"Nevermore I have an unfortunate tendancy to ramble on a bit...I don't want it to influence anything"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html

[Eric]

How did all you people forget the memeory wipe? It was rementioned not even 5 comics ago? I totaly saw this entire episode comeing. The good news is, Belkar won't get better, and since it's a MoJ, Clerics can tell (spell description) and will refuse to heal him.

Heck, the mind-wipe was discussed on the #569 forum about one in five posts!

Sheesh, I think the Oracle's mind-wipe is leaking out into the real world...

[Aerysil]

That was kind of a disappointing reset. Belkar was actually showing a little regret there.

Oh well.

[Randalor]

I wonder how Roy'll react to this? On the one hand, Belkar did bring it on himself by killing a... sorta important NPC. On the other hand, Roy's first meeting with the Oracle ended with him threatning to drop the Oracle out of a window. As well, the Oracle IS an 'evil' monster, so it wasn't even an evil act in that sense.

Then again, going by some of the past things that Roy's approved of/done...

[Oslecamo]

Well, I must say that, even if it was just for some seconds, Haley finnally stoped being a giggly irresponsible girl and become a responsible woman who gave Belkar(a taste of) what he deserved.

And I liked that.

Stupid permanent DM custom magic.

On a side note, at least Belkar won't bother to try to remove his MoJ.

[Superglucose]

It takes a special sort of moral ambiguity to do that. And one would be sent to jail for murder if one claimed that.

Claimed what? Claimed "I'm not going to answer your question because I don't like it" when asked about a murder/murderer? You mean, exactly how the American legal system works?

[B.I.T.T.]

Man, you actually had me going there.

Good comic and a great way to resolve why Haley is still putting up with Belkar in the future.

[Bongos]

So this also means Belkar doesn't remember fulfilling his prophesy by killing the Oracle.

Dang I knew Belkar getting kicked out was too good to be true.

My opinion is the memory spell won't work on Roy. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Remirach]

I liked this a lot. Haley finally gave Belkar the boot he so richly deserved. Yet, I actually found myself feeling kind of sorry for him. Sick and left behind by everyone except Mr. Scruffy (who apparently understood what was going on, because he jumped off the cart to stay with Belkar as Haley was trying to ditch him -- nice attention to detail with that cat! It even shows the :smalleek: eyes when Belkar sicks up). So I'm not disappointed the whole thing was rendered moot. Of course I'll probably regret saying that later...

Greysky City was brought up again... are they really just going to go by without stopping?

I liked the Celia/Haley exchange:

"Well, it's about time that you--"
"Celia, it would really behoove you to shut the hell up right now."
"...yeah, ok."

See? She CAN be reasonable! :smallbiggrin:

[CompassRosie]

Not only did Belkar not try to argue with anything Haley said -- and, okay, maybe he just didn't have time -- he didn't even swear at her or insult her (or threaten) in any way, like I would have expected him to do. His abject pleading would not have changed anything (about him or about the situation) even if it weren't for the memory charm, but it's nice to know he's got it in him. "Haley? Haley, you can't -- "

It's ambiguous as to whether Roy knows about anything that happened here after Belkar's horkfest. Guess we'll find out!

Well played, Giant! :smile:

[Arkenputtyknife]

Nope. Sorry. Your logic does not work. There are people living in jail that did exactly what that Kobold did assuming that he even knew they were going to die.
Please cite an example.

[Ellen]

On the legal stuff -

Yes, in most real life cases, if you knew a crime was going to be committed but said nothing, you could face charges. Even lawyer-client confidentiality breaks down if a client tells a lawyer about, say, a murder he or she intends to commit.

BUT, in real life, if you tried to warn someone based on, "The goddess Tiamat has given me the power to see into the future, and what I'm seeing says there's going to be a murder," don't expect it to work even if you turn out to be 100% on the money.

Granted, in OOTS, they might take the warning a little more seriously, but OOTS also exists in a world where prophetic gifts from local gods are also subject to whatever rules and limitations the local gods put on them, like forbidding the oracle to give any information on the future that isn't specifically asked for in the official "ask the oracle a question" format.

Going by those rules, the oracle probably bent the rules as far as he could by trying to steer Roy towards the right question.

Also, no one gets to remember answers that didn't meet that format. So, even if the oracle had told Roy, he would have forgotten as soon as he left the valley.

[peejaybee]

It takes a special sort of moral ambiguity to do that. And one would be sent to jail for murder if one claimed that.

Huh? Roy phrased the question so that there were only two possible answers, both of which were misleading. Anything else the Oracle could have said would have been wiped by the memory spell because it wasn't an answer to the question.

[the_tick_rules]

Belkar lucked out huge.

[teratorn]

Please cite an example.

:smallcool: You mean you don't know people sent to jail because they refused to share a vision of the future given to them by Tiamat?

What country do you live in?

[Draz74]

Awwww. As much as I didn't want to lose Belkar from the strip, I did like that he was actually having to face some consequences. I was excited to see how he dealt with that (... when he was too sick to deal with it by saying, "awww, screw you, I'll just go kill stuff until I feel better."). I really hope Roy eventually gets to explain to them all what happened. (But I doubt it. Even if the Memory Charm doesn't work on Roy, he'll likely forget everything that happened in the afterlife when he gets Resurrected.)

Considering that the MoJ subplot went on for over 250 strips, I would hope that it would lead to some permanent character development. :smallconfused:

I second what someone else said: the fact that Belkar thinks he still has an MoJ keeping him from killing things probably doesn't matter; he'll be too sick to kill anything anyway, according to the MoJ's original purpose.

Giant, PLEASE bring back Haley's gray Resistance uniform! I like it way better than her original armor!

[ideasmith]

Claimed what? Claimed "I'm not going to answer your question because I don't like it" when asked about a murder/murderer? You mean, exactly how the American legal system works?

This is equivalent to the seal of confession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_confession), which Christian priests, in point of fact, do not go to jail for keeping (in point of fact, do not go to jail for keeping.).

[VForVaarsuvius]

Poor... Belkar??? I never thought I'd say that but he looks friggin pitiful!

Also, I love the sheer irony. Great work again, Rich.

(Haven't seen Haley in her leather armor in quite some time!)

[Lunaya]

I had completely forgotten the memory charm when I read [page 569]. Once the three leave the valley (assuming the girls bring Belkar with them), Haley and Celia are going to wonder why they suddenly have a sick Halfling on their hands. Are they going to conclude that Belkar must have triggered the Mark, or are they just going to assume he has the flu?

Called it! :smallbiggrin: Though in fairness, I doubt I was the first.

I wonder if Celia and Haley will suspect that something is up when, after a long period of time, Belkar refuses to get well. Surely they're smart enough to realize that flu doesn't typically last forever.

[Yendor]

Giant, PLEASE bring back Haley's gray Resistance uniform! I like it way better than her original armor!

I prefer her old armour. That said, I don't think much of her taste in casual clothes. Why does she have so much pink and purple?

[sihnfahl]

It even shows the :smalleek: eyes when Belkar sicks up).
Belkar turned away from Celia and Haley to puke, but since Mr Scruffy was back there... I'm reading the cat's :smalleek: to the fact he was about to get a barfshower.


Greysky City was brought up again... are they really just going to go by without stopping?
Remember, they're adventurers. "If there's nothing plot-important in a city, or I don't have any loot to sell there, there's no reason to stop."


Since he doesn't remember activating his mark, will he continue to be good in cities and towns?
The thing is, by the time they make it to ANY town, he'll be so sick that the worst he can threaten folks with is to make the insides of their shoes soggy.

[Swordlol]

How did all you people forget the memeory wipe? It was rementioned not even 5 comics ago? I totaly saw this entire episode coming. The good news is, Belkar won't get better, and since it's a MoJ, Clerics can tell (spell description) and will refuse to heal him.
^^^^^^ Makes the most sense then almost every other reply.

And I have read them all.

[silvadel]

Haley needs a good suit of elven chainmail. Maybe V can swing it.

[SteveMB]

Nice. I'd forgotten about the memory wipe at the edge of the Oracles territory, guess Belkar just lucked out!

For the moment. The Oracle may have figured, perhaps correctly, that Belkar would be screwed worse if he didn't know that the MoJ had gone off (i.e. he didn't know why he was getting sick, and hence didn't know what to do about it, and also was still constrained by its restrictions).

Or maybe the Oracle just can't turn off the memory charm for some reason.

[happyturtle]

The funny thing is that Belkar will still behave himself for fear of setting off the MoJ. :smallbiggrin: Well, that and the fact that he's now too sick to hurt people.

[Remirach]

Belkar turned away from Celia and Haley to puke, but since Mr Scruffy was back there... I'm reading the cat's :smalleek: to the fact he was about to get a barfshower.
It's just funny to see the expression on a CAT's face, for whatever the reason.


Remember, they're adventurers. "If there's nothing plot-important in a city, or I don't have any loot to sell there, there's no reason to stop."
There's no reason to want to AVOID a major city when they're looking for the nearest possible cleric unless there's something plot-related there. It's just that Haley has no desire whatsoever to follow up on that particular plot. Note her reaction to the mention of GSC back in 531. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) The speculation is that it ties into her backstory as given in Origin.

[krossbow]

That is both so much a cop out and yet makes so much sense.



haha, i like it.

[Shatteredtower]

I apologize for not being able to quote posts properly here, but any attempt to do that seems to result in me losing access to the forum. (I get incredible lag time just attempting to visit the comic some days.) I hope it's enough that I'm attributing them properly

First, from Saph:
Argh! I was just thinking we might finally get some resolution. I wanted to see the consequences of Belkar getting thrown out. Now we're practically back to square one!Throwing Belkar out only provides resolution if the Giant intended to permanently alter the makeup of the Order. As the group's main source of internal conflict and excuse for sadistic humour (a staple of gaming stories, because most of us know someone just like him -- except usually a lot less amusing), I can't see him going that route.

But we did get resolution: we have confirmation that one more prophecy has been fulfilled. It won't stop us from arguing about whether it was already fulfilled by an earlier death (or a later one, even if it's set to occur decades after Belkar is dead), but at least there's no way anyone can reasonably argue that it hasn't been fulfilled at all. :smallwink:

Let's not forget how creative Belkar can be either. Incapacitating him only makes him less directly dangerous, but he circumvented the mark's limitations on two separate occasions already. Unless Haley was actually prepared to kill him right there (rather than leave him to die), she'd be putting herself at considerable risk, even if he couldn't lift so much as a dagger against her.

Eran of Arcadia wrote:
I have been disliking Belkar more and more (as a character, not his presence in the strip) and hoped he would get what he deserved. Oh well. I guess I get to see more attempts to justify his behavior.He did get what he deserved: the greater mark of justice was triggered. To make things worse for him, he doesn't even know it's been triggered, which means he can't treat the problem. That makes his punishment all the more sadistic (and I'm sure the Oracle had considered that), which makes it more fitting for someone like Belkar. Besides, it's doubtful he'd learn from it even if he did know what's happened to him.

If Roy does remember anything from the Valley of the Oracle, odds are he'll only be able to share what he learned while he's still dead. It seems that the resurrected can't take what they've learned "beyond the veil" back with them, based on a certain surprise Eugene got in Start of Darkness.

I wonder if there's anything significant about Roy's absence in this strip, or if he's just headed back to the waiting room.

[Gnomish Lab]

If Belkar lost the memory of killing the oracle, does that means he lost the XPs as well?

[Justin_Bacon]

Nope. Sorry. Your logic does not work. There are people living in jail that did exactly what that Kobold did assuming that he even knew they were going to die.

Really? There are people in jail right now for accurately foretelling the future via a ritual invoking the goddess Tiamat?

[Kato]

Hehe... it's kinda sad the kobolds didn't react to the killing but still... nice thing. Nice irony, especially... wonder if they will ever find out the truth ^^'

[Prowl]

This comic was excellent. It had exactly its intended effect on me... getting to see the satisfaction of Belkar getting the lashing he has long deserved, while not depriving me of my favorite sociopathic halfling. Timing of the memory charm - perfect.

[Hiraghm]

SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.

[nli10]

So good that if I didn't have all 4 books already I'd head out to buy them! :smallbiggrin:


Love the cleverly woven stories of OOTS, more JK Rowling than web comic.

[Morgan Wick]

I thought the point of the activated MOJ was that he's going to be too sick to even consider killing anyone - anywhere. And it doesn't matter whether he knows that it's because of the MOJ or not.

Roy said "incapable of hurting anyone".


Remember, they're adventurers. "If there's nothing plot-important in a city, or I don't have any loot to sell there, there's no reason to stop."

You're forgetting the Law of Conservation of Detail. There is no way the Haley branch of the OOTS is going to keep mentioning Greysky without consequence.


How did all you people forget the memeory wipe? It was rementioned not even 5 comics ago? I totaly saw this entire episode comeing. The good news is, Belkar won't get better, and since it's a MoJ, Clerics can tell (spell description) and will refuse to heal him.

There's a part of me that wants to think that, in some cases, it was supposed to be a joke ("see, it affected me as well!").

RE: MoJ spell description saying Clerics can tell: Exactly where does it say that? I've looked over the MoJ, Bestow Curse, and Cleric descriptions at d20srd.org without success...

Regardless, I see Haley and Co. eventually finding a cleric - or coincidentially bumping into the V/Elan/Durkon branch before finding one - and when the cleric (or Durkon) can't fix Belkar with a simple cure spell he or they will come to the conclusion that Belkar came under the influence of some sort of magical effect. I do NOT see Roy or anyone else telling Belkar or anyone else he violated the Mark of Justice unless that leads to Belkar's death or unless it comes after Belkar's failure to leave the group has serious consequences (but before Belkar gets dismissed from the group a second time; perhaps after Roy is rezzed).

As for right now? I call one more strip at most with the Haley branch of the OOTS before moving on to Team Evil, the Resistance, Roy, or the Linear Guild.

[Hiraghm]

SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.

[Selene]

Mr. Scruffy rules! How great was it when he jumped off the cart to stay with Belkar? :smallcool:

Question for moderators: How many times does that troll guy have to invoke religious and political bigotry before someone bans him? *points upward a couple posts*

[Selene]

SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.

from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1


Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are always off-limits on these forums, no matter what (hence, Inappropriate Topics). Any posts including these topics will be edited, and any threads started to discuss these topics will be locked. Please note that, as specifically stated below, these topics remain off-limits even where they intersect with gaming or other activities discussed on these forums, and that putting an alert for “Adult” or “Mature” content on the thread does not allow circumvention of this rule.

* Real-world religions (including religious reactions to gaming)
* Real-world politics (including political reactions to gaming)
...

Knock it off!

[Hiraghm]

SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.

[Remirach]

Original post SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.
She didn't pass moral judgment on him. There was no "Belkar, you horrible person you," in any of that. Her reasons were entirely pragmatic. Belkar killed someone they could have used to help raise Roy. She can't count on him to act in the party's best interests, and now that he's sick he can't even dish out damage. So he's worse than useless. You might call it heartless, but it's not hypocritical, even if your assessment of her character were correct.


Original post SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.
The Oracle said that he had no class levels, so he couldn't have had many HPs.

[factotum]

Original post SCRUBBED for multiple flames and political insults.

Erm, could you link me to the strip where Haley murdered someone? I must have missed it. :smallconfused:

[Forum Staff]

Question for moderators: How many times does that troll guy have to invoke religious and political bigotry before someone bans him? *points upward a couple posts*

That many times.

The user has been banned and his flames will be scrubbed out shortly. Let's not encourage it by continuing to quote or respond to his posts, OK?

[moral_crisis]

Ugh. And here I was thinking the plot was going to move forward in some meaningful way. And it isn't. Its like a "lets see how long we can pull our pud on this story". I was so excited to see _something_ go somewhere then it just caved in itself at the end.

Yes i knew that there was a memory Charm. yes I also thought it might drop with the loss of the oracle. And yes I think the memory charm is a dumb plot device, but thats me. Hoping for more things to happen later.

[Selene]

That many times.

The user has been banned and his flames will be scrubbed out shortly. Let's not encourage it by continuing to quote or respond to his posts, OK?

Thank you. Totally appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Lizard Lord]

Ugh. And here I was thinking the plot was going to move forward in some meaningful way. And it isn't. Its like a "lets see how long we can pull our pud on this story". I was so excited to see _something_ go somewhere then it just caved in itself at the end.

Yes i knew that there was a memory Charm. yes I also thought it might drop with the loss of the oracle. And yes I think the memory charm is a dumb plot device, but thats me. Hoping for more things to happen later.

Something plot important did happen. Belkar activated the mark of justice. So what if they don't realize it is activated?

[Lunaya]

I have to agree that the placement of the Memory Charm here was pretty brilliant. Belkar's too popular to get rid of, but at the same time, Rich likely didn't want Haley to be seen as a pushover. This way, Haley gets to tell Belkar (and Celia) off, but we don't have to lose Belkar.

Evil or not, I hate seeing anybody suffer. Call it a personality flaw. But as badly as I feel for Belkar, I have to take Haley's side here. She made the right decision and I respect her more for it. I'm just glad that Belkar's not out of the picture.

[The Tygre]

Ooh, nicely done! It makes Haley fans happy because she kicked out Belkar, and it makes Belkar fans happy because Belkar gets to stay. Honestly, I don't much like the thought of OotS without Belkar. He seems to be the backbone of a lot of jokes, and him leaving would probably just cause some kind of massive plot muddle up.

[Lizard Lord]

I am kinda glad that Celia agreed that it would be a good idea if didn't say anymore about how Haley handles Belkar.

[LordSintax]

nice.... the Belkster gets off on a technicality. Wonder who's gonna tell them about the MoJ

[SwordOfUriel]

I am wondering whether this Greater Mark of Justice is going to result in a continually accumulating set of -1s to one of Belkar's stats, until he reaches some sort of catatonic state. 'Cause then Haley/Celia would have to lug around Roy's body, Mr. Scruffy, *AND* Belkar in a coma. And that'd just be unfair.

And I'd put money on Hilgya removing that GMoJ! :smallamused:

[Sarcose]

Maybe the DM just didn't want to deal with another split in the party? :smallcool:

[Ampersand]

Well, crap. I had a sinking feeling as soon as I saw the title, but I had held out hope...

Still, good on Haley for standing up to Belkar. Hopefully he'll still do something to cause her to dump him in a ditch and never look back.

...Though, sadly, probably not. :smallfrown:

[Arkenputtyknife]

How did all you people forget the memeory wipe? It was rementioned not even 5 comics ago? I totaly saw this entire episode comeing. The good news is, Belkar won't get better, and since it's a MoJ, Clerics can tell (spell description) and will refuse to heal him.
Um, would they, though? I don't have the 3.5 rulebooks, so can't say for sure, but there's nothing in the SRD's spell description that says that the effects of the Mark, once triggered, can be distinguished from a curse. In fact, the SRD specifically says, "When activated, the mark curses the subject. … The effect of the mark is identical with the effect of bestow curse." The means of removing it is the same, too. (I'm assuming that it's similar with a Greater Mark of Justice, which doesn't appear to be in the SRD. And in any case it's all at the Giant's whim, of course.) Spoilers for speculation…

Now it may be that there's a way of distinguishing them, but we can't count on it from the spell description. So I can imagine them taking Belkar to a cleric and finding that he's been cursed ("And he's evil—do you really want to do this?"), but not discovering that the Mark of Justice has been triggered, unless the cleric specifically looks for it. And why should he or she?

If they do find that the Mark has been triggered, they're left with a mystery. Even if they assumed that Belkar killed the oracle ("It would explain why we can't remember getting any answers"), they would have no idea how the mark was triggered because they don't know the trigger word and wouldn't remember the kobold village.

[wzeller]

I've been reading the comic and lurking in the forums for a couple years now. But it wasn't until today that I decided I must register in the forum because I've had a strong premonition of where the events in the last couple strips will lead...

So without further adieu, my first official OOTS prediction:


We've learned from Roy's afterlife experience that things we forget about still count in the Grand Scheme. It's also confirmed by Roy's dear old dad that upon being brought back to life you lose your memory of the afterlife, so Roy won't remember the revocation of Belkar's membership whether he was there or not.

Haley was very specific in her language, invoking her official position of acting leader, and told him in no uncertain terms that he's out.

So, in the grand scheme of things, Belkar is no longer officially a member of the group. It doesn't matter that everybody thinks he is.

Belkar will, at some point, nearly be offered some very important thing - be it a reward in the afterlife, or some critically important thing in the corporeal world. Something he feels he absolutely must have. But it will only be offered due to his association with the Order of the Stick. An omniscient being of some sort will know that he, in fact, is no longer in the Order and the offer will be withdrawn.

Personally, I expect to see a very short stint in the afterlife for him. I expect he'll get killed, but Giant won't want to have him in the afterlife for long since Roy's already been there and done that. During his short time there, it will be revealed to him that he's not in the Order, and that's why he can't get/do/have whatever that reward or thing is.


We'll see how long it takes me to be able to say "told you so". :smallwink:

Wayne

[Wixit]

Ooh, nicely done! It makes Haley fans happy because she kicked out Belkar, and it makes Belkar fans happy because Belkar gets to stay. Honestly, I don't much like the thought of OotS without Belkar. He seems to be the backbone of a lot of jokes, and him leaving would probably just cause some kind of massive plot muddle up.

Heh. The Giant and we by extension get to have our cake and eat it too. Personally I felt Haley telling Belkar to stay, die and rot seemed a bit over the top, but it's hard to come up with a suitable punishment that could possibly lead Belkar into having a feeling of responsibility for his actions.

[Ninja]

Erm, could you link me to the strip where Haley murdered someone? I must have missed it. :smallconfused:

Here.... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html)... hey... even hobgoblins are someone... :biggrin:

[Ertier]

If the memory charm hadn't taken effect, Belkar would, even in his weakened state, gotten the last laugh. I imagined him tacking down Haley and coup de' gracing her in her sleep. He isn't above that and she certainly deserved it. As Roy says, " Being a leader is about sticking up for your team." This comic just proves to me that Haley is a bad leader. Bad leader ship is certainly grounds for her "removal". Her actions are based on her flawed moral compass as well as her inability to trust/respect anyone. Certainly what Belkar did was bad, however I point out Roy's statement from an earlier comic(Paraphrased above). She claims to base her actions off of asset vs. liability. If this were true Elan and V would be out (Before you start flaming, V is a liability because s/he is power hungry). I have always liked Haley, but this level of hipocracy is sending her down the path to being NE. Ertier out!


LET THE FLAMES BEGIN!!!

[mikeejimbo]

Well dang, Belkar can't enjoy his cake if he's sick!

[Essej]

Leaving someone who thinks of you as his friend to throw up to death doesn't strike me as something a supposedly good character would do. I can understand kicking him out of the OotS, but the fact that Haley was fine with leaving someone who has saved her life in the past for dead just makes me think a whole lot less of her. The thing that really sucks is that I'm sure all of the other party members would've done the same, other than Elan.

[archon_huskie]

Well dang, Belkar can't enjoy his cake if he's sick!

Must be why the oracle told him to enjoy his next birthday cake.

[kreszantas]

Well it can be explained away that Roy activated it by saying it over him, however they question will remain will Roy remember it?

[teratorn]

Leaving someone who thinks of you as his friend to throw up to death doesn't strike me as something a supposedly good character would do.
Belkar doesn't think of Haley as his friend. At least he is no friend of Haley. He never respected her as leader, he killed the oracle even knowing he was important for Haley's mission. He even considered changing sides and joining Xykon (and Haley knows that).

Why should she risk her mission (to get Roy back and save the world) for someone who adds nothing useful, doesn't respect her, and isn't really committed to the same goals she is? Belkar's near death is his fault, he brought it upon himself by his own actions. He is almost dying because he is a cold blooded murderer.

As a good aligned character she should not have abandoned him, she should have finished him off, so he would not suffer.

[Renegade Paladin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/darth_vader_nooo.jpg (http://darthno.ytmnd.com/)

*Grumble grumble friggin' little bipedal weasel grumble*

:smalltongue:

[Essej]

I wasn't aware the definition of mercy was an arrow to the brain-box. I'm glad that was cleared up for me.

[FujinAkari]

If the memory charm hadn't taken effect, Belkar would, even in his weakened state, gotten the last laugh. I imagined him tacking down Haley and coup de' gracing her in her sleep.

How precisely would Belkar sneak up on anyone when he is projectile vomitting every three steps?


He isn't above that and she certainly deserved it. As Roy says, " Being a leader is about sticking up for your team." This comic just proves to me that Haley is a bad leader. Bad leader ship is certainly grounds for her "removal".

Yes, clearly keeping a homocidal maniac that does more harm than good would be the path a good leader would take. I mean, no police department in the world would EVER suspend a cop for wantonly shooting down innocents without cause, right?


Her actions are based on her flawed moral compass as well as her inability to trust/respect anyone.

HER flawed moral compass? Hello, BELKAR?!? Pot kettle black... wait... no... The Essense of Darkness is calling Navy Blue Black!

[Doug Lampert]

Hehe... it's kinda sad the kobolds didn't react to the killing but still... nice thing. Nice irony, especially... wonder if they will ever find out the truth ^^'
Why do anything else to Belkar? If they tried Haley might well have tried to defend him.

OTOH I still figure it was about 12 seconds after they left the room when a Cleric walked in with a big diamond and started work on bringing the Oracle back.... Compared to putting up a village in a week that should be easy enough to arrange.

[teratorn]

I wasn't aware the definition of mercy was an arrow to the brain-box. I'm glad that was cleared up for me.

He just killed someone in cold blood with no provocation. You think she should just pat him in the back and excuse him because he is feeling sick?

[Wanderer]

Damn it... A justifiable attempt to get rid of Belkar, and the bloody memory spell had to screw it up!

The Wanderer is not pleased.

[Bitzeralisis]

Now Belkar will throw up infinitely!

Or until someone figures out what happened.

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar doesn't think of Haley as his friend. At least he is no friend of Haley. He never respected her as leader, he killed the oracle even knowing he was important for Haley's mission. He even considered changing sides and joining Xykon (and Haley knows that).

Why should she risk her mission (to get Roy back and save the world) for someone who adds nothing useful, doesn't respect her, and isn't really committed to the same goals she is? Belkar's near death is his fault, he brought it upon himself by his own actions. He is almost dying because he is a cold blooded murderer.

As a good aligned character she should not have abandoned him, she should have finished him off, so he would not suffer.
Yep, that's what good aligned adventurers do to Evil mass murders when turning them over to some reasonable local authority isn't convienient. They KILL THEM. They don't hang out with them, they don't help them evade justice or sentences imposed by legitimate courts. They don't help them escape from the scene of a crime.

Good adventurers KILL creatures for far far less than Haley knows with dead certainty Belkar is guilty of. Forgiving him anything he does to people outside the party just because he's a member of your party is the sort of thing EVIL adventurers do.

Belkar doesn't get unlimited free passes because he's a PC, not if Haley is good. He doesn't get unlimited free passes because he's sometimes helpful, not if Haley is good. And he certainly doesn't get unlimited free passes because he's "on her side" when his murderous actions actively hinder her side.

Once it's obvious that he's not under control and intends to kill whenever possible you need to stop helping him at the absolute minimum. Haley ignored that after the Gnome was killed but made a specific claim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html) that she was doing so only because she needed his help. Once due to his own actions he can no longer provide any significant help I fail to see how abandoning him can be wrong (well, except in that it might endanger someone since someone MIGHT heal him eventually, better to kill the evil little **** and thus rid the world of many kilo-nazis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)worth of evil).

[Darzil]

Hehe... it's kinda sad the kobolds didn't react to the killing but still... nice thing. Nice irony, especially... wonder if they will ever find out the truth ^^'

I can see the reaction now. The Kobolds get their weapons, pitchforks, flaming torches etc and set off to lynch the nasty kobold slayers.

Then they get to the edge of the valley and wonder what they were off to do.

Darzil

[Lunaya]

Regardless of whether or not he deserves it, Belkar's affliction is a horrible way to die. While I agree with Haley's decisions, I would have let him at least ride to the nearest city before dumping him. I don't care how evil Belkar is, I couldn't leave him behind knowing that he was going to die a prolonged, painful death. Nobody deserves that.

[FujinAkari]

I couldn't leave him behind knowing that he was going to die a prolonged, painful death. Nobody deserves that.

Why would he? Nothing is stopping him from walking to a city. The MoJ makes him get weaker, but it will -never- kill him.

[teratorn]

While I agree with Haley's decisions, I would have let him at least ride to the nearest city before dumping him. I don't care how evil Belkar is, I couldn't leave him behind knowing that he was going to die a prolonged, painful death. Nobody deserves that.

I agree with you on the painful death (I would finish him off, but you're obviously much more kind-hearted). But then your only option would be to keep him and hope Roy would deal with him. If you get him to a city he might get rid of the curse and get back to his old self. The order is stuck with him. He is too high level to be left unchecked.

[Lunaya]

Why would he? Nothing is stopping him from walking to a city. The MoJ makes him get weaker, but it will -never- kill him.
The MoJ may not kill him, but dehydration will...or a passing owlbear.

@ Tera: Good point. It's probably not a good idea to leave Belkar unsupervised, period. I just hate seeing anyone in pain. I'm too empathetic, I guess. :smallsigh:

[Callista]

Nice. I'd forgotten about the memory wipe at the edge of the Oracles territory, guess Belkar just lucked out!

I guess it must be a permanent effect, or it would have faded with the Oracle.He SO did not luck out! He's now inexplicably sick, and he still thinks he can't kill anyone inside a city!

[Lunaya]

He SO did not luck out! He's now inexplicably sick, and he still thinks he can't kill anyone inside a city!
Agreed. Belkar was pretty much screwed either way. Now Haley and Celia are just going to think the little jerk has some kind of horrible stomach flu. They may or may not be motivated to do anything about it.

[David Argall]

If the memory charm hadn't taken effect, Belkar would, even in his weakened state, gotten the last laugh. I imagined him tacking down Haley and coup de' gracing her in her sleep.
Haley tells us that Belkar is slowing the others up. So his ability to hunt them down and get revenge is distinctly limited. They will simply be too far away for him to reach. That is before we consider the curse is supposed to make him too weak to hurt anyone, and that having to pause to barf every few steps may make it difficult to sneak up on Haley.


This comic just proves to me that Haley is a bad leader.
While I have grounds for agreeing in general, I fail to see what yours are if we limit the evidence to this comic.


Bad leader ship is certainly grounds for her "removal". Her actions are based on her flawed moral compass as well as her inability to trust/respect anyone. Certainly what Belkar did was bad, however I point out Roy's statement from an earlier comic(Paraphrased above). She claims to base her actions off of asset vs. liability. If this were true Elan and V would be out ( V is a liability because s/he is power hungry). I have always liked Haley, but this level of hipocracy is sending her down the path to being NE.

Elan, quite possibly, but he is mostly just useless, unlike Belkar who can be a major handicap when his homicidal nature is not useful to the party. V, however, is quite another case. Haley has no problems with her power-hungry nature. She might object to his refusal to use that power for the good of the party even tho she is trying to use his power to rescue Haley, but power-hungry is not a problem for Haley.

Belkar tho has been undesirable from the start and the prime reason not to dump him was that he was useful. Now that excuse is gone, so the logical conclusion is that it is time Belkar was gone too. One might argue he qualifies as a mercy case, but that's a bit hard to do right after he has killed someone. Haley is in no danger of going NE for leaving Belkar.

Now there is a measure of contradiction between the rescues of Elan and Belkar, and the current attempt to dump him. Up to now, loyalty to the team has been presented as the highest value, trumping utility, alignment, etc. Now suddenly, Belkar is dumped for what takes a little work to distinguish from other cases where he was merely admonished and given what help the others could provide. One can jump around and make distinctions, some of which make some sense, but there still is a contradiction here.



I still figure it was about 12 seconds after they left the room when a Cleric walked in with a big diamond and started work on bringing the Oracle back....

I liked this idea earlier, but with the party gone and missing the chance for maybe Belkar saying something like "Well, at least that !@#$ is dead and gone" as they exit, and we see the cleric enter to cast Raise Dead, we probably will never see if the Oracle gets raised or not, and may never see the Oracle again in any case. We could still have a Roy-Oracle scene that might cover it, but the point will probably remain in doubt.]



Damn it... A justifiable attempt to get rid of Belkar, and the bloody memory spell had to screw it up!
Something had to.
Belkar is one of the protagonists and it's almost mandatory that he survive to the final book, likely deep into it. In book one or two, he could be written out. But we are in book 4 and he has to be around for the rest of it, the next book, and into the one after that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by factotum
Erm, could you link me to the strip where Haley murdered someone? I must have missed it.

Here [470]....... hey... even hobgoblins are someone...
Nope. They are someone, but Haley has a clear case of self-defense here, including the last one she shot in the back. Now some of her earlier killings are suspect, but she gets off on these.



On the legal stuff -

Yes, in most real life cases, if you knew a crime was going to be committed but said nothing, you could face charges. Even lawyer-client confidentiality breaks down if a client tells a lawyer about, say, a murder he or she intends to commit.
Now there are cases where you have a duty to report, but the standard is the reverse, that you are not criminally liable for crimes you know of but take no part in.
This is largely for reasons of practicality. How do you limit the cases? Did Joe know enough to be criminal? How about Sam and Alex? How do you find out that they knew anything at all? You have a mare's nest.
You also have an inducement to crime. If you are going to get 10 years just for knowing about the crime anyway, why not get some of the profit from the crime? Alternately, you might try to avoid any knowledge that might get you suspected of knowing of the crime, which makes it hard to detect the crime.
Whether you can live with yourself over not turning in the crimimal may be a problem, but you don't need to lose any sleep over the law arresting you just for knowing of the crime.



I wonder if there's anything significant about Roy's absence in this strip, or if he's just headed back to the waiting room.
He was absent from 368 too and then showed in 369, so it is too early to assume anything. Possibly we will get a Roy-Oracle strip next, or maybe it will be a large number of strips before we see Roy again.

Now some predictions [some of which might be right]
Haley & Celia will get worried enough about Belkar to make a detour to have him cured in Greysky. There, Haley will have to deal with her old Thieves Guild. Belkar may betray her in hopes of getting a Remove Curse.
Alternately, they may continue to Cliffport, where the Linear Guild will be waiting, and again Belkar may betray her for hopes of the Remove Curse.
In either case, Belkar will likely mess up, tho he could end up getting the Remove Curse, and "rescuing" Haley.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

I'd give you kudos for the extremely long post DArgall, but it required far too much scrolling to read the whole thing.

In other news, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that Belkar is seriously getting off way too easy. :smallmad:

[Wolfwood2]

I didn't like this strip.

The tension between Haley and Belkar has been building for a while, and it finally came to a head. Haley was at long last taking a stand on Belkar's behavior, and Belkar was at long last getting called to account for his actions. It was exciting and for a moment it felt like the comic could have gone anywhere. Instead it went nowhere.

Memory wipe, reset, goodbye character development and consequences for character relationships. Cue laugh track and freeze frame, as everything resets for the next episode. Sure Belkar still has the Mark of Justice, but that's just magic. Haley finally deciding she had had enough was far more important.

I know people been have been saying, "Well of course Rich couldn't really have let Belkar be kicked out of the group. He's too popular. And splitting the group even more would be crazy." It's true, it would have been a chancy move. But sometimes a story has to take chances. Going through with ejecting Belkar would have shown that the characters' actions will have real consequences.

This just... it felt like Rich chickened out. I'm sorry, but it does. It's all very well to say that consequences will show up later, but now was the time. Rich has a lot of plates in the air, and this was the perfect moment to have one crashing down.

[NENAD]

On legal issues; If the law enforcement wanted to prevent Belkar's murders so bad, they should have gone to the Oracle themselves and asked him, and he would not have withheld the information (he's an Oracle). The Order is not law enforcement, they're bounty hunters at best and vigilantes at worst. Besides which, Suckmyorangeballshalfling probably does not fall under any jurisdiction other than its own. Since it was a citizen of Suckmyorangeballshalfling who comitted the 'crimes' and since they were comitted in said town, the Oracle is clearly subject only to the laws of that town, which he founded. Given he can see the future, it's safe to say he could have planned for this kind of thing.

As for the comic itself, I am beginning to warm up to Belkar again, for two reasons. One, he finally made a joke about something other than murder. Admittedly, strip clubs aren't much of a step up, but it was decently funny and it was different. We also haven't been getting as much Belkar as before, since we had the interlude with Elan and crew. Thusly, I would have been at least a little sad to see him go, if only because I tend to resist all change that isn't initiated by myself. It certainly wouldn't have made me stop reading, though.

And finally, Haley's leadership. Haley is not a politician, or the leader of some kind of theatre troupe whose job is to entertain us, not within the Stickverse. Haley is a military commander. That is going to require a certain level of ruthlessness. Does this hobgoblin really deserve to die? No, the only thing I know he's done wrong is to fight for his country, same as me, so if he deserves death then so do I. But he's a threat to me and my soldiers, so he has to die for his country. Or for his cave. If you want to argue that maintaining a good alignment in war time is impossible, fine, but Haley did the absolute best thing for everyone but Belkar, who is a definitively Chaotic Evil psychopath.

By the way, seeing Lunaya react to the whole 'he has to die' thing was interesting. Her moral compass and logic are intact enough to know that if Belkar didn't die one way or another, there would eventually be a lot more suffering in the world when he got better, and yet she doesn't have the heart to say that he should be left to die with the Mark of Justice, and almost certainly couldn't deliver the mercy blow herself. There's something poetically tragic about that.

Anyway, I should probably stop analyzing you like you're just a character in the comic too, Lunaya. Have a good one.

[Warren Dew]

This comic just proves to me that Haley is a bad leader.

She's a rogue. Her character class is designed to work alone. Why would we expect her to be a good leader?


As a good aligned character she should not have abandoned him, she should have finished him off, so he would not suffer.

Why do we think she's good aligned? I kind of had her tagged as neutral, but I haven't been paying that much attention.

[Grey Watcher]

I didn't like this strip.

The tension between Haley and Belkar has been building for a while, and it finally came to a head. Haley was at long last taking a stand on Belkar's behavior, and Belkar was at long last getting called to account for his actions. It was exciting and for a moment it felt like the comic could have gone anywhere. Instead it went nowhere.

Memory wipe, reset, goodbye character development and consequences for character relationships. Cue laugh track and freeze frame, as everything resets for the next episode. Sure Belkar still has the Mark of Justice, but that's just magic. Haley finally deciding she had had enough was far more important.

I know people been have been saying, "Well of course Rich couldn't really have let Belkar be kicked out of the group. He's too popular. And splitting the group even more would be crazy." It's true, it would have been a chancy move. But sometimes a story has to take chances. Going through with ejecting Belkar would have shown that the characters' actions will have real consequences.

This just... it felt like Rich chickened out. I'm sorry, but it does. It's all very well to say that consequences will show up later, but now was the time. Rich has a lot of plates in the air, and this was the perfect moment to have one crashing down.

I disagree. I think it was actually a bold move. Belkar's increasingly outrageous behavior was bound to set Haley off at some point. By giving us what looks like a climax to it and then pulling the rug out from under it was a really nice move, I think. It seems to me, given the number of "How-the-heck-is-Belkar-getting-away-with-this" threads and posts I've seen around here, I doubt that Rich is catering to any particular fanbase by keeping him around....

[Wolfwood2]

I disagree. I think it was actually a bold move. Belkar's increasingly outrageous behavior was bound to set Haley off at some point. By giving us what looks like a climax to it and then pulling the rug out from under it was a really nice move, I think. It seems to me, given the number of "How-the-heck-is-Belkar-getting-away-with-this" threads and posts I've seen around here, I doubt that Rich is catering to any particular fanbase by keeping him around....

Eh, nice move for what? All I can say is that this strip nudged me a couple of steps closer to saying the 8 deadly words for anyone reading a story.

"I don't care what happens to these people."

[belboz]

Agreed. Belkar was pretty much screwed either way. Now Haley and Celia are just going to think the little jerk has some kind of horrible stomach flu. They may or may not be motivated to do anything about it.

Oh, they'll be motivated all right. Already, I hope they don't have anything that is simultaneously valuable and absorbent in that cart.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Memory wipe, reset, goodbye character development and consequences for character relationships. Cue laugh track and freeze frame, as everything resets for the next episode. Sure Belkar still has the Mark of Justice, but that's just magic. Haley finally deciding she had had enough was far more important.


Not necessarily, there is plenty opportunity for character development without having to constantly cut back and forth from Belkar to everyone else. Besides, if Belkar hadn't been memory wiped, he would probably just die blaming the Oracle, Haley, Roy, Hinjo, Shojo and anyone else who had anything to do with his MoJ being placed and activated.

Being punished without knowing he's being punished...that keeps him from having someone to blame.

[Warren Dew]

Do NOT let Belkar puke up his guts for the next 100+ strips. It was funny once. It will get old very very fast.

I actually kind of liked the discreet puking in this strip; targeting it out of frame made it less disgusting, but it still served as a good reminder of how sick Belkar still is. Until I got to the first puke here, I was afraid he was getting better, given how he seemed comfortable walking around and everything.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Here.... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html)... hey... even hobgoblins are someone... :biggrin:
Okay, it's a strip where Haley kills someone. But we asked for a strip where Haley murders someone. That isn't this strip.


If the memory charm hadn't taken effect, Belkar would, even in his weakened state, gotten the last laugh. I imagined him tacking down Haley and coup de' gracing her in her sleep. He isn't above that and she certainly deserved it. As Roy says, " Being a leader is about sticking up for your team." This comic just proves to me that Haley is a bad leader.
No. Being a leader also requires disciplining your team when the team steps out of line, as Belkar did. What Haley did was good leadership, not bad leadership.


She claims to base her actions off of asset vs. liability. If this were true Elan and V would be out (Before you start flaming, V is a liability because s/he is power hungry). I have always liked Haley, but this level of hipocracy is sending her down the path to being NE.
And V has also been extremely useful to the team, far from a liability. There is no hypocrisy here.


I wasn't aware the definition of mercy was an arrow to the brain-box. I'm glad that was cleared up for me.
Yes, sometimes mercy is an arrow to the brain-box. I'm glad you understand that now.


Why would he? Nothing is stopping him from walking to a city. The MoJ makes him get weaker, but it will -never- kill him.
And Alzheimer's disease didn't kill my father; pneumonia did. But it was Alzheimer's that weakened him to the point where he couldn't fight off the pneumonia.

[David Argall]

I'd give you kudos for the extremely long post DArgall, but it required far too much scrolling to read the whole thing.
It's not a short one, but I think I have done longer, and likely will again.


In other news, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that Belkar is seriously getting off way too easy. :smallmad:
Given he seems to deserve slow death by torture, that is pretty much a given. Now in story terms, to repeat my previous post...

"Belkar is one of the protagonists and it's almost mandatory that he survive to the final book, likely deep into it. In book one or two, he could be written out. But we are in book 4 and he has to be around for the rest of it, the next book, and into the one after that. "
So we are limited to inadequate punishments, and pretty much punishments that allow him to stay with the party. By those standards, we are doing a number on him.



Why do we think she's good aligned? I kind of had her tagged as neutral, but I haven't been paying that much attention.
See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

Unholy Blight sickens those of Good alignment, but not those of neutral. Haley's comment of "can't move" is an indication of a "sicken" effect. It may not precisely follow 3.5 rules, but it is clear the effect labels Haley, and everybody but Belkar, as of some Good alignment.

[Grey Watcher]

Eh, nice move for what? All I can say is that this strip nudged me a couple of steps closer to saying the 8 deadly words for anyone reading a story.

"I don't care what happens to these people."

I found the twist entertaining. That's all.

[ideasmith]

See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

Unholy Blight sickens those of Good alignment, but not those of neutral. Haley's comment of "can't move" is an indication of a "sicken" effect. It may not precisely follow 3.5 rules, but it is clear the effect labels Haley, and everybody but Belkar, as of some Good alignment.

According to the player's handbook (page 297), Unholy Blight affects "good and neutral (not evil) creatures" The effects listed are the same for all alignments affected.

Edit: Oops, misread the spell description.

[Warren Dew]

See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

Unholy Blight sickens those of Good alignment, but not those of neutral. Haley's comment of "can't move" is an indication of a "sicken" effect. It may not precisely follow 3.5 rules, but it is clear the effect labels Haley, and everybody but Belkar, as of some Good alignment.

Thanks! I guess I'm missing some things from never having played AD&D by the book.

Edit: I think David is right, at least according to this:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unholy_Blight

"creatures who are neither evil nor good ... are not sickened"

[Essej]

Yes, sometimes mercy is an arrow to the brain-box. I'm glad you understand that now.


The keyword there being sometimes, and mercy killing is only just as a last resort not the first.

I'd really love to see some attempt by the group to rehabilitate Belkar instead of just ditching or killing him, not that anyone else in this forum thinks that anything short killing someone is a viable way of dispensing "justice".

[Child Conscript]

'Ha I bet he'd cry"
Recreating my love with Ceila

[brilliantlight]

That memory charm saved Belkar's membership and probably his life. Wonder how long he can last like that? It's even worse since now they don't know why he's puking. Nice to see that Mr. Scruffy hopped out of the cart to join him. Who says cat's aren't loyal?

This also means that no one will know that the oracle is dead unless the information can be acquired from outside the valley. Don't think the oracle cares though (he's dead).


Assuming he isn't raised and I would assume he would be.

[Ampersand]

Belkar doesn't get unlimited free passes because he's a PC, not if Haley is good. He doesn't get unlimited free passes because he's sometimes helpful, not if Haley is good. And he certainly doesn't get unlimited free passes because he's "on her side" when his murderous actions actively hinder her side.

Actually, right up until this strip it did seem that the entire world was bending over backwards to ignore Belkar's blatant evil because he's a PC/protagonist. Up until now, have there been any consequences to his actions? Even getting the Mark of Justice placed on him seems weak, because it was Shojo essentially excusing the murder of the guard because the OotS's quest was considered more important. Even his imprisonment in Azure City lasted...what? A day, maybe two? Mild inconvenience, at worst.


Now there is a measure of contradiction between the rescues of Elan and Belkar, and the current attempt to dump him. Up to now, loyalty to the team has been presented as the highest value, trumping utility, alignment, etc. Now suddenly, Belkar is dumped for what takes a little work to distinguish from other cases where he was merely admonished and given what help the others could provide.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, David, but I don't see a contradiction here. Belkar has zero loyalty to the team; as such, I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to show zero loyalty to him, particularly since they've gone to considerable risk to protect him in the past (saving him from Miko despite knowing he's an evil psychopath who probably did do everything she said he did being the most dramatic example)


I didn't like this strip.

I have to agree with your general premise. While it's nice to see some consequences in form of the Mark of Justice being active, it was disappointing to see the character-based consequences in terms of someone finally standing up to Belkar be reset. I'm hoping that we don't fall back into the "Everyone clucks their tongue at Belkar but otherwise ignores the fact that he's a complete sociopath" pattern that's pretty much been the sum total of his character interactions to date, but sadly it's looking like that will in fact be the case.

[brilliantlight]

First I would like to say I should have seen the memory wipe coming... but I didn’t (was too caught up in the story to remember that detail) so for me it was a great twist.

Second I would like to say that I know some of you don't like Belkar but he is one of my favorite characters and a main character in the story and even though he deserves punishment (and he’s getting it) he should not die (permanently anyway) or actually be kicked out of the Order (or not forever anyway)

Belkar is a great character, he shakes up the good (which gets boring) and adds a lot, he is getting what you all wished for, his punishment (very sick) and that’s enough, he should never ever stop being a main character though I like him too much.

Agreed, I like to see him suffer quite a bit but he is still someone I would like to stay in the party if he can still make sarcastic remarks.

[Lunaya]

By the way, seeing Lunaya react to the whole 'he has to die' thing was interesting. Her moral compass and logic are intact enough to know that if Belkar didn't die one way or another, there would eventually be a lot more suffering in the world when he got better, and yet she doesn't have the heart to say that he should be left to die with the Mark of Justice, and almost certainly couldn't deliver the mercy blow herself. There's something poetically tragic about that.

Anyway, I should probably stop analyzing you like you're just a character in the comic too, Lunaya. Have a good one.
:smallredface: Yeah, I guess I do tend to get a little too involved in the story sometimes. But really, I think that just speaks to Rich's ability as a storyteller. He's very good at making us care about his characters and, even better, making us think. I for one am really enjoying all of the analyses. You have a good one too, NENAD. :smallsmile:

[Draz74]

Why do we think she's good aligned? I kind of had her tagged as neutral, but I haven't been paying that much attention.

Plenty of reasons we know she's good.

The most blatant and literal is in Comic 393 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html). If you translate her speech, when Elan asks her, "Haley ... this isn't true ... right? He's just making it up?" Part of her response is "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!" (The last part being added just because she has low self-esteem and doesn't necessarily respect herself as she respects other Good beings.)

Then there's general demeanor, like wanting to help the poor dirt farmers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html) or going on dangerous missions to capture food and rescue slaves from hobgoblins. Also, she was "pure hearted" enough to open Dorukan's Sigil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html). (Convenient that she's the one that touched it, even though V -- whose alignment is much more suspect -- acted like (s)he was about to touch it in the previous strip.)

Finally, I just can't picture anyone as sweet and innocent as Elan being in love (and at peace with being in love) with someone who didn't have a Good alignment.

[Guyinthestreet]

Okay, it's a strip where Haley kills someone. But we asked for a strip where Haley murders someone. That isn't this strip.

And Alzheimer's disease didn't kill my father; pneumonia did. But it was Alzheimer's that weakened him to the point where he couldn't fight off the pneumonia.

But will Belkar survive his next birthday?

[Niknokitueu]

Nice comic Rich.

Go Haley! She let off a lot of steam and really put the Belkster in his place. Shame they won't remember any of it... :(

Onwards, to Cliffport and redemption! Oh, hang on, no-one knows that Belkar has activated the MoJ. Not even Belkar. No wonder he won't reach his next birthday...

:belkar: Hey, guys, I'm feeling even worse today. I have been feeling worse every day since we went to meet the Oracle. I wonder if something happened there...?

(That statement cannot really happen, though, as Belkar is slightly lacking in the required thought processes to follow the cause-and-effect of the logic.)

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[NakedCelt]

A question that occurs to me — How can Celia borrow Haley's clothes? How does she get them on over her wings?

[David Argall]

I don't see a contradiction here. Belkar has zero loyalty to the team; as such, I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to show zero loyalty to him, particularly since they've gone to considerable risk to protect him in the past

Which is the contradiction. They came to the rescue of a Belkar they knew to be just as evil, just as disloyal, and far more dangerous to the innocent, but now they won't help a rather harmless Belkar under conditions of far less bother to them.
One can explain the difference between the two situations with work, but the fact is that it is work. We don't easily see a consistency in their behavior.

[Jimorian]

Speaking of memory charms, don't forget that one of the theories of when Roy finally gets rezzed is that he won't remember anything that has happened to him while dead.

[The_Cardinal]

Haley should have given Celia the dress she recieved from Nale in 381 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0381.html

Heh heh, I doubt she'd be wearing it again anyway.

[Ninja]

So without further adieu, my first official OOTS prediction:


We've learned from Roy's afterlife experience that things we forget about still count in the Grand Scheme. It's also confirmed by Roy's dear old dad that upon being brought back to life you lose your memory of the afterlife, so Roy won't remember the revocation of Belkar's membership whether he was there or not.

Haley was very specific in her language, invoking her official position of acting leader, and told him in no uncertain terms that he's out.

So, in the grand scheme of things, Belkar is no longer officially a member of the group. It doesn't matter that everybody thinks he is.

Belkar will, at some point, nearly be offered some very important thing - be it a reward in the afterlife, or some critically important thing in the corporeal world. Something he feels he absolutely must have. But it will only be offered due to his association with the Order of the Stick. An omniscient being of some sort will know that he, in fact, is no longer in the Order and the offer will be withdrawn.

Personally, I expect to see a very short stint in the afterlife for him. I expect he'll get killed, but Giant won't want to have him in the afterlife for long since Roy's already been there and done that. During his short time there, it will be revealed to him that he's not in the Order, and that's why he can't get/do/have whatever that reward or thing is.




well, actually, none of them needs to be there, as Roy ripped their contracts... they are free to go if they want, but they choose to stay... so i'd guess Belkar is still part of the group.... n i dont think that the grand scheme has anything to do with this....

[Arssanguinus]

I wasn't aware the definition of mercy was an arrow to the brain-box. I'm glad that was cleared up for me.

You know. .I doubt in any world that someone should be given a blank moral check. Belkar is a cold blooded serial murderer, and an unrepentant one at that. WHy exactly is infinite mercy justified?

[Dunesen]

After reading a few more pages of comments, I have a few more predictions/arguments:

Greysky would be the logical place to go to next for the trio, because Haley will consider Belkar's illness to be a regular bout of the flu or something similar; ie, something that can be treated with a good night's sleep at the nearest inn (does D&D follow that rule like Final Fantasy does?). So they go to the nearest town to see if he can beat the flu, and while there they look for a cleric to raise Roy. Doubt it will be successful because it would be more dramatic for Durkon to do the honors.

It would make sense for the Thieves Guild to appear, because Elan, Durkon and V's party still has the Lord Kubota angle. Simply traveling to Greysky and then Cliffport doesn't provide too much drama, and we've already cut between the boat-party and the land-party enough right now. So what would make story-telling sense is to keep with Haley et al for now, and as I said, they need some conflict besides random encounters.

But I don't think the TG angle will be resolved just yet (kind of like how I don't expect Kubota to be killed or put out of commission anytime soon). There will be a fight or encounter of some kind, but it will end anti-climatically and the TG will come back at a future point.

Also, at most Celia and Belkar will only get a hint of what's going on with Haley's dad. The reveal of her past won't come until a bit later, most likely after the entire party is back together.

HOWEVER, it could also make sense to reveal everything now AND resolve it all, because a sidequest for her wouldn't quite fit in once the team is together and planning a strike back against Xykon. Once the A-plot comes back, I don't expect many sidequests or distractions for a few dozen strips.

Plus taking care of her past could help her grow as a leader. Character XP, in a sense.

I definitely do not foresee the Linear Guild coming back anytime soon. First of all, the whole team isn't there. Nale wouldn't be satisfied with picking off one part of a team and then another. Second, Elan is his main target. How can going after Haley and Belkar help him get to Elan, except by holding them hostage and luring Elan into a trap? And we've already seen that with Julia. Nale may not have a command of genre convetion like Elan, but even he won't redo a plan that already failed.

He's going to take his time to come up with a new Linear Guild (six opposites) and a sufficiently needlessly complicated plot.

[Hezus]

First time poster, long long loooong time reader.

Just wanted to say that I really enjoy the comic. Keep them coming!

[GingerM]

BUT, in real life, if you tried to warn someone based on, "The goddess Tiamat has given me the power to see into the future, and what I'm seeing says there's going to be a murder," don't expect it to work even if you turn out to be 100% on the money.

Don't believe that it won't work either though. (http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/17/school-has-child-tak.html)

[Niknokitueu]

A question that occurs to me — How can Celia borrow Haley's clothes? How does she get them on over her wings?
IIRC she cuts slits for her wings and gathers it in a lot around the hips... :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu