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View Full Version : Punishing the undead?



kwanzaabot
2008-06-24, 07:54 AM
So, in my campaign i'm currently working on a city populated by the undead. The basic premise is that long ago, the citizens of this city were cursed to live forever (or at least until their bones finally crumble to dust), and upon death, each living citizen of this city (Lemuria, i'm calling it) rises as an undead (a Necropolitan, to be exact).

As I wrote the backstory, I realised that this town would make a great haven for other undead- however, as a large chunk of the city is actually alive, I need a way for these "foreign" undead (Vampires, Liches etc) to behave themselves.
I can't use the death penalty, as killing a Lemurian immediately damns the victim to rise as an undead, which is seen as the worst thing to possibly do to someone (as it curses them to live forever), so it'd be pretty hypocritical to say that murdering a Lemurian calls for the murder of the killer. It just perpetuates the cycle (for example, what if a living Lemurian kills another living citizen? They both become undead... hardly fair, and downright horrible in the eyes of the city's undead population!).
I can't use imprisonment... if the undead live forever, what's a few years behind bars?

Trouble is, that doesn't really leave me with much. So, I ask you: what non-death penalty methods of law enforcement can I use to ensure that evil undead do NOT kill people within the city walls?

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-24, 07:58 AM
Would keeping them in a Consecrated area forever work? It would be unplesant while weakening them. If not, destroying them is probably the only option here.

Chineselegolas
2008-06-24, 08:04 AM
Vats of holy water. Consecrated ground. Imprisonment.

Sent to lectures in the temple of Pelor (Man those guys can talk...)

Nebo_
2008-06-24, 08:06 AM
Prison works fine, if you change it a little. They probably wouldn't mind a few years behind bars, but putting someone in a box with no light, food, water or contact with another soul for a decade might deter crime a little.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-24, 08:07 AM
Can undead in D&D even eat or drink? I'm assuming it would depend on the type (I know none of them would actually need those things). A lack of company would probably detere a lot of poeple, though.

marjan
2008-06-24, 08:12 AM
Cure Minor Wounds - easily accessible and hurts. :smallbiggrin:

kwanzaabot
2008-06-24, 08:24 AM
Prison works fine, if you change it a little. They probably wouldn't mind a few years behind bars, but putting someone in a box with no light, food, water or contact with another soul for a decade might deter crime a little.

Solitary confinement, eh? Combine that with the consecrated ground idea for eternity, and we've got ourselves zero crime! I like. :D

This has actually just given me an idea for an adventure: several undead break out of the prison after being locked up for a couple hundred years. It's like, if the inmates escaped from Arkham Asylum, except The Joker's undead and he's a little annoyed because of the last few decades of sensory deprivation. :D

Spooky stuff.

bbugg
2008-06-24, 11:57 AM
Banishment?

Could lead to fun times in the lands around the city.

Duke of URL
2008-06-24, 11:58 AM
How about resurrection (at their expense) followed by normal punishments?

Talic
2008-06-24, 12:04 PM
Can undead in D&D even eat or drink? I'm assuming it would depend on the type (I know none of them would actually need those things). A lack of company would probably detere a lot of poeple, though.

Yes. Libris Mortis outlines Diet Dependent undead.

MammonAzrael
2008-06-24, 12:06 PM
Mind Rape.

Petrification should work too.

Or banish them to the Far Realms.

marjan
2008-06-24, 12:18 PM
Mind Rape.


Mind Rape should be [Mind-Affecting], if I'm not mistaken, so it wouldn't work. Though it would be interesting solution if it did.

endoperez
2008-06-24, 12:20 PM
Mutilation. Doomed to live forever is one thing, but doing that without sight, or hand(s), or leg(s), or tongue/jaw (no way to vocalize speech)... well, that's nasty. This is the equivalent of death sentence of other lands, so it's limited to the most severe crimes.

Imprisonment - several years with no human contact would be nasty for mental health, so something similar would be appopriate for crimes that don't result in one of the above.

Forced civil/military service, perhaps enforced with a Mark of Justice or similar. Situational. Could provide adventure hooks, or for creating an NPC spy or whatever that started his career to avoid some more severe punishment.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-24, 12:24 PM
This, of course (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html).

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-24, 12:43 PM
Thanks for telling me, Talic. The mutillation option looks good here as well (the cost of a Resurrection would make that idea too impractical, and there are better things the money could be spent on).

Xuincherguixe
2008-06-24, 12:59 PM
Community Service? Possibly forced with spells? (There is control undead after all)

Having to pay a fee of a hundred thousand golden pieces of gold?

LurkerInPlayground
2008-06-24, 01:23 PM
Ever play The Dead Nations segment of Planescape: Torment? There's a similar concept in play. There are also social taboos and agreements between the undead. There can be truces, reputation and the ilk. They're mostly going to be composed of intelligent undead. And the nearly-mindless undead are just as likely to eat other undead as they are to eat the living. (i.e. The ghouls in the Dead Nations just see all the other undead as food or obstacles.)

Besides, a death penalty is plenty of punishment in some ways. You lose quite a number of useful abilities: like having sex, getting drunk, eating and smelling and so forth. It's also a quick way to alienate somebody from their family. There's probably also a certain amount of prejudice. Pity. Loathing. Contempt. Hmmm. . .yeah, it's a pretty bad punishment already.

The Marquis is a vampire now, from a good family. He doesn't prey upon the members of his family. . . just on street urchins, slaves, prisoners and enemies. He wants to see his line thrive well into the future and thinks of himself as a beloved uncle or such.
Classist struggle!

The lich has lasted centuries. He isn't stupid. All he wants to do is delve into his arcane researches without interruption. And he does his best to stay neutral in political machinations and avoids making a big splash. Just so long as he gets plenty of money and the occasional slave to experiment on, he's happy. Nobody is stupid enough to risk his ire. . .so they leave him alone. He's just dandy with that arrangement.

Now if those damned ghouls would just quit raiding his stocks. . .

Besides which, various religious orders might be quite a menace if they were ever to be roused because somebody broke the truce and decided to prey upon the free middle class. It'd be a costly war to be sure, and nobody wants that. Undead can always die a second time. Some clans of undead may even benefit from pre-existing business arrangements and would hate to see somebody else ruin it for them because they got greedy.

Particularly stupid or unreasonable undead might actually have to be fended off by the more intelligent undead. Intelligent undead are participants, to whatever degree, in their society. There's no point letting a bunch of near-mindless predators ruin that for them.

AKA_Bait
2008-06-24, 01:29 PM
Community Service? Possibly forced with spells? (There is control undead after all)

Having to pay a fee of a hundred thousand golden pieces of gold?

Actually, these two in conjunction could work. Consider having them enslaved until they earn enough money to have the victim resurrected or true resurrected with some additional compensation.

Vexxation
2008-06-24, 01:46 PM
First of all, in a city with such a curse, how are they maintaining Zero Population Growth (preferred) or at least not completely overrunning the area?

Next, consider that "making you an undead" is unlikely to work as a punishment, regardless of the losses involved. Why? Well, if everyone who dies is undead, a massive (read: majority) part of the population is undead at any one time, and they probably wouldn't look too kindly on "becoming me" being a punishment.

So yeah, enslavement, torture, both good choices, but my favorite is exile.

Because I would guess there are lots of undead out there, spillover from the city. Probably older, addled, even crazed or mindless, the type who would feed on other undead. Walking alone out there, dying, and waking up only to have any flesh ripped off *again*? No thanks.

As for undead who commit crimes, healing them as torture works. Can't just outright slay them or turn them, because that's a gift compared to eternal suffering.

Randel
2008-06-24, 02:05 PM
This sort of reminds me of the Fables series. In it there is a community of Fables (like Snow White, Prince Charming, and the three bears). They all live forever and if one is Killed-off-for-real then their legendary nature ensures that someone like them is created elsewhere. (you may be able to kill off the Wicked Witch of the West but unless you ensure a replacement for her than some woman somewhere will eventually gain magic power and turn green, thereby inheriting her power and immortality).

As such, they have an artifact called the Witching Well which they dump dead bodies down. The fables dumped down the well find themselves in another world where it is thought impossible to return to the others. If their essence does create a replacement then it appears on the prison world. Nobody knows what this place is like, they just know that what goes down doesn't come back up.


So, a society of undead could have something similar. Like a big pit of quick sand in an anti-magic field. A pit so deep that whoever falls down never hits the ground (possibly using a portal or something to create unlimited falling distance), or literally a one-way gate that sends them to some dead world with no air or magic and no living things to harm. A sphere of annihilation could do the trick for those who deserve the death penalty and any 'curse' they have should be erased along with them.

mabriss lethe
2008-06-24, 02:31 PM
If I'm not mistaken, bestow curse should work on undead. Any of the listed effects would be rather nice punishments. Since Bestow Curse also has an open ended element that allows you to create your own curses, it can be a great spell to use for a variety of punishment levels.

Mark of Justice also follows, since it's effectively a bestow curse with a specific trigger.

Mark of Justice would make a good "passport" that all registered undead not native to the city need in order to operate freely. Since it does nothing as long as the undead behaves, it's more of a passive measure.

Falconer
2008-06-24, 02:51 PM
Perhaps a huge pit or cave system underneath the city? No light, food water, or anything. Those who have commited certain crimes are simply dumped down there and left to rot (literally). This goes for both undead, who may well be attacked and ripped to pieces by more deranged undead down there, as well as living criminals, who may well be attacked and ripped to pieces by deranged undead, and then they get to go through that wonderful experience again after they reanimate.

The prospect would certainly be a deterrant. :smallamused:

Leewei
2008-06-24, 03:32 PM
Exile to the "Low City" where the protection of the law doesn't apply to anything.

Jayngfet
2008-06-24, 03:47 PM
1. Impale with spikes.

2. Heal with spikes inside.

3. Make them walk around with spikes for a week.

Another_Poet
2008-06-24, 04:32 PM
I think that it would be effective to have low-level clerics Turn Undead on the offenders. This could be repeated over and over, all day for 1 day, a month, or however long the judge says. Obviously it won't destroy high-level undead but if those clerics know what they're doing (or if you just say they have soem special rods that let them adjust their turning strength) they could keep the undead convicts in a constant state of terror and distress. The sentence wouldn't have to be very long to get a point across.

The city might also take some proactive measures, such as requiring all liches to turn in their phylacteries to be held in a government vault and all vampires to accept a Mark of Justice type spell that prevents them from drinking blood that wasn't sold by the city blood bank.

Of course the city council would include several uber-powerful liches who will help to enforce this law.

ap

erikun
2008-06-24, 04:57 PM
Two of the most useful would probably be forced labor (probably to pay off the debt to the governing body) or entombment for some amount of time - probably 100 years or so. Either one should keep the sentences out of trouble for awhile.

holywhippet
2008-06-24, 05:24 PM
There was something I saw in an Angel episode once. They basically locked a guy behind a door in a room that was standing room only. The door had a slit in it at eye height so that he could see out. He had no way of escaping because he was paralysed or something (I only saw the ending).

Do something like that, the prisoner can see outside but can't do anything for the duration of their sentence.

Collin152
2008-06-24, 06:31 PM
The undead feel pain, right?
Listen to the song A More Humane Mikado.

kirbsys
2008-06-24, 06:33 PM
The death sentence would work if you incinerated their bodies.

kwanzaabot
2008-06-24, 08:40 PM
First of all, in a city with such a curse, how are they maintaining Zero Population Growth (preferred) or at least not completely overrunning the area?

Next, consider that "making you an undead" is unlikely to work as a punishment, regardless of the losses involved. Why? Well, if everyone who dies is undead, a massive (read: majority) part of the population is undead at any one time, and they probably wouldn't look too kindly on "becoming me" being a punishment.

So yeah, enslavement, torture, both good choices, but my favorite is exile.

Because I would guess there are lots of undead out there, spillover from the city. Probably older, addled, even crazed or mindless, the type who would feed on other undead. Walking alone out there, dying, and waking up only to have any flesh ripped off *again*? No thanks.

As for undead who commit crimes, healing them as torture works. Can't just outright slay them or turn them, because that's a gift compared to eternal suffering.

Wow, there's so many good ideas in this thread, I don't know where to start! :smallbiggrin:
I'll address this "population growth" point first: the main thing that separates Lemurians from other undead is that they do die. Sure, upon death they rise as an undead, but over time they continue to decay, eventually turning to dust (generally after a millenia or two).
My reasoning behind the lack of population growth is that most citizens don't want to doom their children to undeath, so very few Lemurians actually go out of their way to start families. Some do, and some have children by accident, and that's really enough to keep the population manageable in my opinion.
Additionally, undead Lemurians who are foolish enough to venture out of the city are generally caught and slain by Clerics, Paladins and the like.

As for your other points, you've hit the nail on the head. Killing is a major taboo for the Lemurians, as it dooms a living person to become undead (which nobody wants) and killing a criminal with the death penalty lets the killer stay dead (and everybody wants to stay dead, which wouldn't deter crime so much as encourage it).

Exile is definitely an interesting form of punishment, as Lemuria is seen as paradise to foreign undead (it's the only city in the world where they can walk the streets without fear), so having that taken away would be downright horrible.

I also like Another_Poet's idea of having Liches hand over their phylacteries and mabriss lethe's mention of a Mark of Justice "passport".

Dausuul
2008-06-24, 09:03 PM
Bury them.

Falconer
2008-06-24, 09:08 PM
Just curiosity: when a Lemurian dies outside the city, do they reanimate? Does it happen to anybody who dies within the city's borders?

kwanzaabot
2008-06-24, 09:22 PM
Just curiosity: when a Lemurian dies outside the city, do they reanimate? Does it happen to anybody who dies within the city's borders?

Yeah, it doesn't matter where they die. If they're a citizen (either those who're born there, or those who immigrate there), and they die, they'll rise again.

Collin152
2008-06-24, 09:23 PM
Yeah, it doesn't matter where they die. If they're a citizen, and they die, they'll rise again.

So revoke citizenship.
It's not that hard.

kwanzaabot
2008-06-24, 09:25 PM
So revoke citizenship.
It's not that hard.

It's a magical deus ex machina curse. Not so easy. :smalltongue:

timbuck_hunter
2008-06-24, 10:02 PM
Yes, burying them is the best way to go. This incorporates most of the other punishments into one, imprisonment and depravation of food/interaction/senses. Possibly even chain or restrain them in a coffin or a filled pit. If these are all intelligent undead it would certainly put the fear of the justice system into them if they knew what would happen.
Utter destruction of the body is also a good idea, but more of as a death penalty equivalent.

kirbsys
2008-06-24, 10:08 PM
So far the best idea (I think) would be to chain them up and bury them in a sealed casket. Simply dig them up when their ten years or so is up. This has the unfortunate side affect of making those subjected to the punishment insane however. Ten years is a long time. Maybe just one?

DoomedPaladin
2008-06-24, 10:55 PM
http://www.flamesrising.com/hollowfaust-city-of-necromancers-rpg-review/

I LOVE Hollowfaust. It's a very well executed idea of a undead dependant society. If you can find it, it could help a lot with laws, codes, and relationships between undead and living citizens.

Might I suggest planting something in misbehaving undead? A fruit plant of some sort perhaps to humiliate them. Or some nasty vine that hampers movement?

If imprisonment sounds good you might take inspiration from old stories about USSR-era Russian prisons. You are accused, then imprisoned, trial happens without you. If found innocent, you are released. If guilty, you are held until your sentance is up. You are not told how long you are to be imprisoned for. Every meal time three small hatches on your door open. The bottom one's for food, the top for viewing you. The middle is for the gun that they may or may not execute you with.

kwanzaabot
2008-06-24, 11:45 PM
DoomedPaladin: Wow, that sounds like exactly what I'm after. (unfortunately, most RPG-selling places around here only sell WOTC stuff, and i've got access to everything of interest in that department. :smalltongue:)

Either way, I am SO gonna track down that book. What with 4th ed. around, I could probably get it on the cheap, too. :smallbiggrin: