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lux_aeterna
2008-06-24, 06:43 PM
Firstly,

A player with improved grapple has just made a successful touch attack to start a grapple with an opponent. He now moves to enter the square and begin a grapple.
The square he moves through is threatened by second opponent. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the second opponent. If the player takes damage from this attack does he lose the grapple as he would if he took damage from the opponent he was attempting to grapple?

Secondly,

Can one grapple a mounted opponent, forcing their way up onto the mount with the initial rider? How would this work. I know that unseating a mounted opponent is a trip attack.

Killersquid
2008-06-24, 07:14 PM
I don't remember anything about grappling up a mount. If its not in the manual, improvise, use a DC for grapple, and then ride to see if the mount doesn't buck you off.

Tehnar
2008-06-25, 07:04 AM
1.


To maintain a grapple in later rounds, you must move into the
targetís space. This movement is free and doesnít count as part
of your movement in the round. Moving in this way provokes
attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not
from your target. If you canít move into your targetís space, you
canít maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the
target. To grapple again, you must initiate another grapple.

So in essence this is what you do.
1. make a touch attack
2. make a opposed grapple check
3. deal your unarmed damage (nonlethal, if you want lethal it is at -4 on your grapple check)
4. If you wish to continue grappling move into targets square

So if you provoke AoO for moving it does not break your grapple (assuming you are still concious and can move (for example if someone tripped you during the AoO provoked from moving).

2. Ill assume the worst possible starting position, that the grappler is on the ground. This is what I would do.

1. Make a touch attack against the mount (provoke AoO unless you have imp grapple or imp unarmed strike).
2. Make a opposed grapple check against the mount, but if you win dont deal dmg, nor is the mount considered grappled with you, this check represents just mounting the mount (you could add some bonuses to the mount depending on how proficient the rider is).
3. If you win, you mount (but still provoke a AoO from the rider for moving)
4. If you want you could make a rider or the grappler make a ride check so that the mount doesn't throw them off (optional)
5. Once mounted make a grapple attempt against the rider normaly

bosssmiley
2008-06-25, 08:00 AM
I don't remember anything about grappling up a mount. If its not in the manual, improvise, use a DC for grapple, and then ride to see if the mount doesn't buck you off.

@OP: You might want to the look at the "Races of War" grappling rules. These break 3E's spaghetti-like mess of grappling rules down into an initial Grab action and then your choice of conditional actions: Clamber On (for monsters, mounts, giants and the like), Pin (for wrangling and wrestling), or Lift (for princess kidnapping, Antaeus beating, etc).

Eldariel
2008-06-25, 08:23 AM
I'd allow Grappling a rider be done with a simple Jump/Climb-check (to get up on the mount) and Ride-check (to mount a moving mount) to get on the mount's back (you aren't really grappling the mount and the grapple-check really has way too high DC for something like this, since all mounts are at least Large) as simple movement followed by a grapple-check with the rider.

Keld Denar
2008-06-25, 08:25 AM
You would enter the square of the rider, but since the rider is actually in all of the squares occupied by the mount, you would enter the squares occupied by the mount. The mount would get an AoO on you, as well as any other adjacent characters.

Instead of a trip to dismount the target, you could make an opposed grapple to move the grapple up to 1/2 your base speed. If you win, you could drag the opponent off the horse. DM is free to assign standard circumstance bonus/penalties if the rider is in a military saddle/bareback. Once you drag the victim out of the mounts squares, they would no longer be considered mounted.

This should work.

Another_Poet
2008-06-25, 09:48 AM
I would deal with it based on reach.

In order to try to Grapple someone you have toi make a melee touch attack. If you are Medium that means they must be w/in 5' of you. A person riding a horse is within 5' of you if the hose is adjacent to you. So you can still grapple them when they are mounted.

If you are small or their mount is bigger than a horse, you can't. Grapple the mount first to climb up, or make a Jump check.

The problem is on the second round when you have to move into their square. At that point you will need to make the following: your grapple check, a jump check to get on the mount, and a ride check to say on the mount. If any of them fails you lose the grapple.

ap

Keld Denar
2008-06-25, 10:28 AM
I would deal with it based on reach.

In order to try to Grapple someone you have toi make a melee touch attack. If you are Medium that means they must be w/in 5' of you. A person riding a horse is within 5' of you if the hose is adjacent to you. So you can still grapple them when they are mounted.

If you are small or their mount is bigger than a horse, you can't. Grapple the mount first to climb up, or make a Jump check.

The problem is on the second round when you have to move into their square. At that point you will need to make the following: your grapple check, a jump check to get on the mount, and a ride check to say on the mount. If any of them fails you lose the grapple.

ap

By mounted combat rules, a person mounted on a mount is considered to occupy ALL squares at once with respect to attacking them. Likewise with anyone involved in a grapple with a sufficiently large foe. You can grapple a halfling mounted on a colossal dragon simply by being adjacent to the dragon. Likewise, if the dragon were grappling you (snatch or whatever), a person standing adjacent to the dragon could stab you with a small sized butter knife with no penalty. Thats just the way it works.

No where does it say anything about having to jump to reach a mounted target. Not overly realistic, but I didn't write the rules. Also, no requirement of a ride check. You don't have to be properly sitting on the mount to be hanging on to the rider. Just watch any Indiana Jones movie. Also, the rules don't support it. You just have to grab the rider.

Granted, the rider with Mounted Combat could opt to use the mount to gain cover against you, but that would only impose a -4 on your attack to grab them.