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Chronicled
2008-06-25, 12:31 AM
Looking at making a level 7 Beguiler-esque Whispergnome who has something to do in most situations, and I'm wondering: is dipping a level in Scout and then going into Unseen Seer a better idea? Yes, I know thou shall not lose caster levels, but for just 1 of them, that's 5d6 skirmish at the end of the Unseen Seer levels, plus a few extra BAB to boot.

So: is straight Beguiler a better idea? Am I correct in guessing that skirmish is the best precision die advancement (versus Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike)? And if Unseen Seer is the way to go, any other advice for it?

Chronos
2008-06-25, 12:41 AM
It seems to me that Unseen Seer is really more for wizards than beguilers. Most of what you get from the class, beguilers have already. All you'd gain would be the precision damage (of whatever sort), and really, how often will you be in a situation where precision attacks will be a better option than one of your spells? You won't even be able to combine Sneak Attack with spells, since I don't think that beguilers get any damaging rays.

If you really do want the precision damage, though, I'd go with Sneak Attack in your case. As a beguiler, you should have a ton of ways to deny your enemy their Dex bonus, but you won't have as many ways to move ten feet and make multiple attacks (unless you spend a lot of feats on it). Sudden Strike, meanwhile, is strictly inferior to Sneak Attack, but if you've got a decent Wis, Ninja might be worthwhile for the AC boost.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-06-25, 12:57 AM
Beguiler isn't really the best class to be picking up melee abilities with. If you want to improve your character's effectiveness in combat, consider getting Shadow Conjuration and/or Shadow Evocation, and take max ranks in UMD and pick up a few wands of super-effective low-level spells. A single level of Mindbender would be a good choice, but other than that I wouldn't multiclass out of it.

I'm currently playing a Beguiler 10, we've only seen one combat since I joined the group four weeks ago, and this character has turned out to be the MVP every session. I'd have to say that Beguiler is the single best class for any noncombat situation you could think of, and it has plenty of options for combat as well. You just have to think as a battlefield controller rather than a damage dealer.

Chronicled
2008-06-25, 04:00 AM
@Chronos: That makes sense. I mostly looked at the difference in SA and Skirmish progression when making that decision.


Beguiler isn't really the best class to be picking up melee abilities with. If you want to improve your character's effectiveness in combat, consider getting Shadow Conjuration and/or Shadow Evocation, and take max ranks in UMD and pick up a few wands of super-effective low-level spells. A single level of Mindbender would be a good choice, but other than that I wouldn't multiclass out of it.

I'm currently playing a Beguiler 10, we've only seen one combat since I joined the group four weeks ago, and this character has turned out to be the MVP every session. I'd have to say that Beguiler is the single best class for any noncombat situation you could think of, and it has plenty of options for combat as well. You just have to think as a battlefield controller rather than a damage dealer.

Oh, I've played a Beguiler before, and had one in a campaign I ran. I know how good (and fun) they are, and what works well in combat. This idea was more for expanding the options available--not that there aren't already a lot of them.

Keld Denar
2008-06-25, 06:59 AM
The main problem with Beguiler as a lead-in to USS is that there are almost no weaponlike spells on the Beguiler spell list. Typically an USS will use Rays or Orbs to make ranged attacks and deal spell damage + sneak attack with them. Without those spells, you are just dealing sneak attack (or skirmish in your case) with a weapon, which is gonna be strictly inferior to casting spells in your case.

Cool concept, clash of mechanics.

marjan
2008-06-25, 07:33 AM
The main problem with Beguiler as a lead-in to USS is that there are almost no weaponlike spells on the Beguiler spell list. Typically an USS will use Rays or Orbs to make ranged attacks and deal spell damage + sneak attack with them. Without those spells, you are just dealing sneak attack (or skirmish in your case) with a weapon, which is gonna be strictly inferior to casting spells in your case.

Cool concept, clash of mechanics.

Wands of Acid Splash will solve that problem.

As for OP: Taking a level of SA-like class might not be necessary, depending on how your DM rules the following situation. You can take Hunter's Eye (ranger spell that grants SA) as your first Advanced Learning spell. This will give you SA for one round per casting in which case you will be able to apply US's SA bonus dice. Though you should first check with your DM if he/she will let you do this.

Keld Denar
2008-06-25, 08:02 AM
And how is that different from just using a crossbow? Sure, its touch AC vs normal AC, but the base damage is what I was looking at. Sneak Attacking with a Scorching Ray or Orb of Cold will deal 12-15d6 + 7d6 SA or whatever. You need base damage AND SA to compete in DPR with a rogue that just runs up and shanks them with a knife.

On a side note, if you SA with an Empowered Orb or whatever, you don't empower the SA dice, right? What about if you SA with an Empowered Whirling Blade? WB specifically includes weapon related features (such as Weapon Spec or enhancement bonuses). Would this include SA? Man, that would be nasty.

Sorry for any threadjacking, its hard to tell my muse to sit down and shut up at times...

Kurald Galain
2008-06-25, 08:27 AM
And how is that different from just using a crossbow? Sure, its touch AC vs normal AC

That is precisely how it's different.

If you want a damaging beguiler, I'd recommend pickin up one nuke spell through eclectic learning or arcane disciple, then using one of the Complete Arcane's reserve feat to get infinite fire bolts, acid bolts, or cold bolts. Then sneak attack.

Chronos
2008-06-25, 03:16 PM
then using one of the Complete Arcane's reserve feat to get infinite fire bolts, acid bolts, or cold bolts.Unless you have some other class feature or the like to reshape or re-element supernatural abilities, acid is the only one you can sneak attack with. The fire reserve feat gives you a burst like a mini-fireball, the cold one gives you a cone like a mini-cone of cold, and the lightning one gives you a line like a mini-lightning bolt. Acidic Splatter is the only one that involves an attack roll. Fortunately, acid is a more useful element than the others, anyway.

Paul H
2008-06-25, 06:26 PM
Hi

Instead of doing damage yourself, why not just Charm their biggest bad guy & let him 'protect' you?

My last game of Living Greyhawk my Wiz 1/Beguiler 9 cohort cast Hesitate on a hybrid Dragon in a swamp. (Big bad end of adventure type - we needed to goad it out for flying party to deck it). Failed save meant only move actions. (Not good - it just hid & moved - so Paladin & mount went down & smacked it). Big let down - Unsettling Enchantment meant Dragon -2 AC, -2 to attack (Not that it could).

If you want to exchange some class abilities for BAB, then take one level of Duskblade & go Eldritch Knight. (But I still think pure Beguiler is best).

Cheers
Paul H

Jack_Simth
2008-06-25, 07:02 PM
Unless you have some other class feature or the like to reshape or re-element supernatural abilities, acid is the only one you can sneak attack with. The fire reserve feat gives you a burst like a mini-fireball, the cold one gives you a cone like a mini-cone of cold, and the lightning one gives you a line like a mini-lightning bolt. Acidic Splatter is the only one that involves an attack roll. Fortunately, acid is a more useful element than the others, anyway.
So do Clap of Thunder (Sonic) and Invisible Needle (Force); Acidic Splatter will usually be the better choice, though, as Clap of Thunder is touch range, and Invisible Needle needs to deal with full AC (not just Touch AC).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-06-25, 10:29 PM
Really, why bother with precision based damage anyways? You've got much more potent options available to you than merely doing damage. That's what the meat shield is for. A Beguiler is better off locking down critters than trying to blow them up.

However, if you truely wish to be able to blow things up, may I make some simple suggestions?

1) precision damage is made of fail. It doesn't work on many things, it's difficult to get to work, and in general is sub-par compared to area effect stuff.

2) Spontanious Summoner feat (Complete Divine) lets you summon nature's ally. Basically, adds all the SNA spells to your list of spells known. Handy, eh? This can be used to threaten opponent casters, set up flanking opportunities with your meat shield, cause general disruption in opponents, trigger potential traps, and with Unicorn, can also be used to heal.

3) Extra Spell feat (Complete Arcane) lets you add one spell to your list of spells known. Unlike the beguiler class ability, you can add anything, not just Illusion or Enchantment. Add in something to blast with like Disintegrate. Have fun. If you absolutely, positively demand on using reserve feats, grab Orb of Sound, and the feat Energy Subsititution to change flavor around as necessary to power various reserve feats. Generally thought of as a normally sub-par feat, but it certainly beats loosing access to Beguiler class features to do precision damage.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-06-26, 02:27 AM
Beguiler is one of the best battlefield control and utility classes in the game, if you want something different try to do it without sacrificing that. Considering that nearly every opponent that's immune to your strongest abilities (illusions and enchantments) will also be outright immune to precision damage, you'd probably be best off trying something else. Maybe get Obtain Familiar and either Dragon Familiar or Improved Familiar to get an additional combatant and possibly a flying mount. Another idea would be to go with Vow of Peace, since your battlefield control is all nondamaging and the entire line of Whelm spells deal nonlethal damage, though that would require an accommodating party. There are plenty of ways to play a class that feel completely different than how it would normally be played, without sacrificing that class' natural strengths.

Draken
2008-06-26, 11:31 AM
2) Spontanious Summoner feat (Complete Divine) lets you summon nature's ally. Basically, adds all the SNA spells to your list of spells known. Handy, eh? This can be used to threaten opponent casters, set up flanking opportunities with your meat shield, cause general disruption in opponents, trigger potential traps, and with Unicorn, can also be used to heal.

3) Extra Spell feat (Complete Arcane) lets you add one spell to your list of spells known. Unlike the beguiler class ability, you can add anything, not just Illusion or Enchantment. Add in something to blast with like Disintegrate. Have fun. If you absolutely, positively demand on using reserve feats, grab Orb of Sound, and the feat Energy Subsititution to change flavor around as necessary to power various reserve feats. Generally thought of as a normally sub-par feat, but it certainly beats loosing access to Beguiler class features to do precision damage.

No. It's not handy. You need to know the spell Summon Nature's Ally to get the feat.

Then you get to spontaneously cast said spell, a number of times each day equal to your wisdow modifier.

You still need to learn the spell(s) Summon Nature's Ally.

Paul H
2008-06-29, 01:38 PM
Hi

Well said, Draken.

If a Beguiler can't affect the target, then just boost the party.

Mage Armour, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Haste, Invis Sphere, Freedom of Movement, Solid Fog, etc are all good spells in themselves. You can even take Heroism (Adv Learning) to boost the Fighter, etc.

Of course, in Eberron there is a whole warehouse of cheese in the Recaster PrC. Just play a Changeling Beguiler, then with this PrC you can just filch 2 spells from another's spell list(s)to add to your own spells known. And that's ANY spell from ANY spell list.

Changeling Beguiler 6/Recaster5 can pick one 2nd lvl & one 3rd lvl spell from any list(s) to add to their own. Gains (effectively, but not the actual feat) Eschew Materials, change the dimensions of area spells, cast spells silently or stilled as if their 'Sudden' versions had been used, and lots more besides.

Cheers
Paul H

Jack_Simth
2008-06-29, 02:09 PM
If you absolutely, positively demand on using reserve feats, grab Orb of Sound, and the feat Energy Subsititution to change flavor around as necessary to power various reserve feats. Generally thought of as a normally sub-par feat, but it certainly beats loosing access to Beguiler class features to do precision damage.
Do Note:
If you read the header for the reserve feat type description in Complete Mage, you find out this doesn't work for a Beguiler (at least, not one without the Arcane Preparation feat as well). For spontaneous casters, a reserve feat requires that you know a spell that fits, and have a free spell slot of that level. For prepared casters, you must merely have the spell unused.

Thus, for Beguilers, Sorcerers, Bards, Favored Souls, and other spontaneous casters, Energy Substitution and Heighten Spell don't help. For Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, and other prepared casters, Energy Substitution and Heighten Spell do help.

However, you're probably better off doing Spell Research to make a new spell to meet requirements, rather than burning a feat on it. Spell research is just some gp (1,000 gp per spell level), time (1 week per spell level), and a spellcraft check (I don't remember the DC off hand).

Paul H
2008-06-29, 08:01 PM
Hi

Actually a Changeling Beguiler/Recaster could in theory use the reserve feats, but only for the spell(s) they've learned as a class ability, or the spells already known.

Personally;

Changeling Beguiler 7/Recaster5 (Italics are feats taken) Total CL 11

1) Beguiler:Armoured mage, Trapfinding. Spell Focus Enchantment
2) Beguiler: Cloaked Casting(+1DC) Surprise casting
3) Beguiler; Advanced Learning (Serene Visage SpC), Extend Spell
4) Beguiler:
5) Beguiler: Silent Spell
6) Beguiler: Surprise Casting (Move Action), Unsettling Enchantment
7) Beguiler: Advance Learning (Misers Envy, SpC)
8) Recaster: Metamorphic Spell (Components)
9) Recaster: Expanded Knowledge (Fireball, Flaming Arrows or Fly), Sudden Metamagic, Maximize Spell
10) Recaster: Metamorphic Spell (Time)
11) Recaster: Expanded Knowledge (Heart of Earth CM), Sudden Metamagic
12) Recaster: Metamorphic Spell (Space), Spell Focus Illusion

You now cast spells:
1) As Eschew materials
2) 5/Day cast spells with Silent or Still, without increasing time or level
3) 3/Day cast spells with cast time of std action, and duration greater than 1 rnd as swift, but only lasts 1 rnd
4) 5/Day change spells with touch as Ranged Touch 30', or reshape areas of effect
5) 5/Day add Enlarge or Maximize to spells cast without increasing cast time or spell lvl.

Personally I'd take Fly as bonus spell and just use Runestaff of Fire from MIC.

Now how broken is that? Thankfully it's an Eberron class specific PrC.

Cheers for reading this far...
Paul H