OOTS #571 - The Discussion Thread

[Shatteredtower]

No, that analogy would have to be:

You make ME angry enough to attack you.You're starting from a false premise. You are responsible for both your emotional response and your actions. Your anger in response to anything I've said does not excuse you from attacking me.


You've done so deliberately.Doesn't apply. All of the evidence indicates that the kobold was attempting to direct Belkar away from killing him. Alternate explanations are not supported by what we've seen.

Entrapment is not supported by your argument, but let's say it was true -- that the Oracle's comments were intended to provoke Belkar into killing him at that particular moment, rather than just his way of dealing with an inevitable. (Regardless of what he said, he was getting killed. By Belkar. Right then and there.)

It still can't be entrapment.

First, the Oracle said nothing that can be reasonably interpreted as, "Kill me." Nothing. Not one word.

More to the point, however, is the fact that the Oracle did not set up Belkar to murder him because Belkar came to the Oracle with the declared intention of committing the crime the first time he encountered the Oracle. The Oracle merely permitted him to go through with the intention, then made sure it would have the repercussions it was meant to, rather than allowing Belkar to slip out through a loophole. Make that two loopholes: he was immune to the command word because Roy is dead and didn't share it with Haley. Odds are that either of them would have felt justified in using it by now (Roy for the gnome, Haley after the Oracle's death).

You may consider murder in D&D to be no big deal because it's easily reversible, but that's far from the case. For those few who can afford the option, it still takes a few thousand gp to bring people back to life, and not everyone that can pay for it is going to consider that pocket change. (We don't shrug that off just because the wronged party can pay for it out of petty cash.) It also has the effect of removing you from day-to-day activities, with a negative impact on your personal and business affairs.

Let's not forget that the killed party is not the only wronged one either: family, friends, followers, and employers are all deprived of your company and services. As Shojo demonstrated, one can't even count on the murdered party to return, and the attempt doesn't lessen the charges against Miko. And what Belkar did to the gnome merchant would be neither more nor less severe of a crime if said gnome was a celebrated figure with dozens of beloved children or a complete hermit with no social contacts whatsoever. (Of course, if no one's going to miss him, how'd he even be given the choice to come back?)

At the very least, assuming your killer is made to pay all costs to bring you back (and can do so), murder is an enforced period of abduction. It doesn't matter how well you might have enjoyed the time off, even assuming you can remember it afterward. It doesn't matter how easily some folks can shrug that off afterward either.

But if that doesn't convince you, maybe you'll take the word of these fine police officers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) when one of them tells Nale (well, Elan, actually), "The only mistake I see is you thinking you could get away with murder, you cop-killing piece of crap." After all, it's their world. I'm sure they recognize murder when they see it, and they certainly seem to feel that killing someone is a very serious act indeed.

Or let's consider Hinjo's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), where he says, "I'll stand between any two murderers I wish," to Miko -- even though there's plenty of time to raise Shojo (and it hadn't yet occured to him that his uncle wouldn't accept the offer). He also notes that Belkar stands accused of murder, even though there's already an arrangement for Belkar's share of treasure to go toward paying for the guard he'd killed to be raised, as mentioned by Roy here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html).

The Oracle didn't abuse Belkar's mark to take advantage of the halfling. All he did was make sure Belkar paid in full for his crime for once. The only member of the Order that might consider that unjust would be Belkar, and that's only because it's happened to him. Doesn't sound evil by that standard. If anything, he did Haley a favour: Belkar is no longer in a position to kill strangers on the road on a whim, something she'd proven unable to prevent in the past.

[David Argall]

The Oracle KNEW what was going to happen and let it. OK, it was prophesied. What was NOT prophesied was him getting a village built up JUST so that Belkar can be trapped into setting off the MoJ AND NOT TELLING HIM ABOUT IT.

If the Oracle had told them and Belkar had done it anyway, then Belkar was at fault. By keeping it quiet, that's entrapment.

Entrapment requires an active element. The cop can stand on the corner disguised as a drug addict, and [as here] carefully situated so he is in a jurisdiction with heavy penalties, but that is not entrapment, until he asks you "You know where I can score some drugs?" Now it becomes entrapment because he is making an active effort to encourage you to crime.
Our Oracle seems to lack this active element. He has a full right to say no refund and explain why. That the customers find the explanation lame does not mean it is false. Nor does that justify Belkar. Moreover, when the Oracle is raised, we have him complaining, more evidence of a lack of intent to induce Belkar to the crime.
Belkar can't escape on grounds of entrapment.



As other people pointed out, if something is stolen and then returned to possession, the theft stands. It's not that because it was undone then it's like it didn't happen.
Now a question here is "when is something stolen?" & "When does murder happen?"
You shoot somebody and he walks away, but dies some time later [which we all do eventually]. How long after he got shot can he live, but you are still liable for murder charges? [Standards of a year are perhaps most common.]
You take a car off the sales lot for a "trial spin", and don't come back. How long must the sales lot wait before calling the cops? They are going to get sued for false arrest if they call too soon. You committed the crime when you drove away, but it does not become a crime for some time after that.

The time the crime is committed is not necessarily the time the crime is finalized. Belkar is not guilty of murder until that finalization, which can be long after the actual killing. Since Raise Dead is a real part of the story's life, the crime may not be finalized as murder until that spell is ruled out.

Now we do have to keep in mind that this is a maybe, which will likely vary with individual jurisdictions. It is entirely possible that most rule that it's still murder even if Raise Dead is used successfully. [Those who get Raise Dead would mostly be the type who write or influence the law, and we can assume they want to discourage even unsuccessful attempts to get rid of them.] But in some cases, Raise Dead could save Belkar from a murder charge.

[Ninja]

You take a car off the sales lot for a "trial spin", and don't come back. How long must the sales lot wait before calling the cops? They are going to get sued for false arrest if they call too soon. You committed the crime when you drove away, but it does not become a crime for some time after that.

but you can't realy apply this to a murder situation, can you. he stabed him, oracle died imediatly.he commited the crime, and it was a crime imediatly. you can't say " hey lets wait a couple of days to see if he realy killed him". yes he was raised, but it still doesn't change the fact that he killed him.

[recluso]

The MoJ *activating* was not meant as punishment for murder. The fact it was put up sort of was punishment.
It was meant to prevent Belkar running away and being dangerous to other people. It was not removed before the battle of Azure City, so at least Roy was happy with the fact the MoJ would activate if Belkar killed goblins in justified self defense during an just battle. The MoJ also doesn't kill Belkar, only disables his killing ability - and admittingly - makes him feel bad.

Even if the oracle planned it, disabling (not killing) Belkar was reasonable, it prevents deaths like that of Solt's.

The 'only in town/city/village' part is an non-sensical loophole. The oracle fixed that.