OOTS #571 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Paragon Badger

2008-06-25, 10:40 AM

Argh. I knew it! Right from the point Roy made all those 'Yo Momma' jokes, I knew the Oracle was the type to ignore it just to cheese Roy off, since the oracle just likes being spiteful, and what better way to spite a ghost than to affirm his suspicions that you can't hear him?

If only I had posted my thoughts so I could quote it here and flaunt my foresight. :smalltongue:

Edit:

Ooo, burn!

Is this the entrance of the new Dragonborn race in OOTS?

They're called Bangaa, not Dragonborn. :smallamused:

Matuse

2008-06-25, 10:41 AM

Hurray! The oracle is back! And he's been screwing with Roy the whole time. That only makes me love him more. If he was a girl oracle...and more mammalian I'd want to have little orange babies with her!

Emperor Demonking

2008-06-25, 10:42 AM

The oracle is awesome.

sihnfahl

2008-06-25, 10:42 AM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...
No, it's really easy to kill the Oracle. He just won't STAY dead unless you do something to stop resurrections...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?
He's an Oracle; he knows his deaths have been preordained. He can't prevent them.

sikyon

2008-06-25, 10:42 AM

Is it just me or has the comic been getting abit more... sexual... as of late?

los olvidados

2008-06-25, 10:42 AM

Nice dig at Mrs. Greenhilt :smallbiggrin:

atom

2008-06-25, 10:43 AM

Heh... That druid is screwed...

I wonder whether the oracle's visions work like "i've had a vision - something's gonna happen..." or "let's see what'll happen then". Because if they work the former way, he'd have to have a *very* good memory.

glowface

2008-06-25, 10:44 AM

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Maybe once an event has been divined, it cannot be prevented, it will happen, no matter what precautions you take. So all you can do is to
a) put them in a context when their real meaning is distroted to your needs; or
b) make preparations to remedy unwanted consequences.

Dunesen

2008-06-25, 10:44 AM

OK, so my theory from the last strip about Roy telling Belkar about him almost being kicked out of the team is moot.

Which is kind of a let down. I had held out hope the memory charm wasn't going to be a complete cop-out type thing where it turns out the visit to the Oracle has no real character development. But no one remembers or knows what happened (other than the audience), so what does it accomplish?

There is some slight possibility that the effects of the memory charm can be undone, but it probably take some serious Deus Ex Machina for that.

But also now the shock of the Oracle dying is gone as well. He can still be used as source of information, it's not a major loss or event the way Shojo or even Miko dying were. And I suppose if the team ever does revisit him Belkar will try to kill him again, but being held back by the others this time.

I am somewhat disappointed by what this strip means compared to what could have been, but it's not like I'm going to stop reading anytime soon. Hopefully it's leading somewhere.

Blanth

2008-06-25, 10:45 AM

Looks like Roy is going to have a LOT of strangling to do if/when he gets resurrected. :-)

Philistine

2008-06-25, 10:45 AM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...

If his prophecies could be invalidated so easily, he wouldn't be much of an Oracle.

...

I gotta admit, I giggled like a fool at the whole druid vs animal companion bit - once I picked my jaw up off the floor.

Grunthos

2008-06-25, 10:45 AM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...

Either A) Fate is immutable, in which case the Oracle has no way to prevent the deaths, or B) Fate is a fiction, in which case the Oracle doesn't want to do anything that would reveal that fiction, thereby putting himself out of a job.

VForVaarsuvius

2008-06-25, 10:45 AM

Wow, hope Belkar never hears he got raised... lol

And yes, now Roy might get somewhere... might...

Oregano

2008-06-25, 10:47 AM

Nice, that Oracle is one Magnificient Bastard.:smallsmile:

Szilard

2008-06-25, 10:52 AM

Were those lizardfolk? I have to look at it again.

First Page!

Pandabear

2008-06-25, 10:56 AM

Darn... he must require resurrection on a regular basis :smalleek:

Timberboar

2008-06-25, 10:57 AM

Wow, hope Belkar never hears he got raised... lol

Why? Belkar doesn't even know he died.

khourytamarisk

2008-06-25, 10:58 AM

*does the happy Kobold dance*

All is right with the world. :) :biggrin:

TigerHunter

2008-06-25, 10:58 AM

Predictable, but still amusing.

Also... she's cheating on him... with a bear?! Eeew... :smalleek:

Ravensabre

2008-06-25, 10:59 AM

I swear the Oracle reeks of awesomeness!

Pronounceable

2008-06-25, 11:00 AM

It seems I have underestimated him. I'm now wholly convinced that the Oracle is awesome. If he keeps this up, he may replace the beloved Chief as the best NPC.

HOLEkevin

2008-06-25, 11:03 AM

Well that's just too damn funny!

(Of course, it kind of looks like the Oracle doesn't intend to actually help Roy after all…)

Lunaya

2008-06-25, 11:05 AM

Ha! Nice to see the "scaly oracular bastard" is still getting the last laugh. Kudos to whoever made that prediction first. :smalltongue:

silvadel

2008-06-25, 11:05 AM

A ghost can make your life MISERABLE if you can see him. The oracle jerking Roy's chain might not have been the best of ideas.

I can see why the oracle is low level dying so much -- If he doesnt watch out he will have to use true ressurrections or his expert level will be 0.

As for druids -- ouch -- that would NOT be a nice picture. So much for loyalty in both ways.

Hezus

2008-06-25, 11:08 AM

Really well done. Ofcourse the Oracle took his resurrection into account.. like all the other times :p

VForVaarsuvius

2008-06-25, 11:09 AM

Why? Belkar doesn't even know he died.

I meant assuming he ever gets his memory back or finds out what happened.

HellFireXS

2008-06-25, 11:09 AM

Timberboar

2008-06-25, 11:12 AM

I was thinking... seeing as how the Oracle has to earn back his level from the Raise Dead spell, how high level do you think he is? Seems to me level two should be sufficient.

So how quickly can the Oracle gain 1,000 XP to hit level 2 again? Having perfect foresight seems like it would grant a bit of combat advantage. :) So just how tough do you think that little kobold is to take down when he's got fate on his side instead of running against him?

Ninja

2008-06-25, 11:12 AM

i loved it.... yeah it was kinda predictable that he will get raised.... but i didnt see him hearin Roy....

so.. is there a Oracle fanclub in here somwhere? :smallbiggrin:

Kato

2008-06-25, 11:19 AM

Hehe... yeah, we might have expected him being ressed. Though I didn't think there'd be so many customers killing him it's on his common schedule. Also the interaction started nice... I thought it might happen, but didn't see the 'yomama' coming, hehe... go on with it, Giant! ^^

Austran

2008-06-25, 11:20 AM

Haha! I knew that Tiamat would have some trick to save her Oracle! But I really didn't expected that he could hear Roy.

Prowl

2008-06-25, 11:21 AM

These Oracle storylines are becoming so...

... predictable.

*rimshot*

:biggrin:

Remirach

2008-06-25, 11:30 AM

Do we know how far away March 26th, 1187 is?
I was wondering that too. In "Origin" we see the final date on Eugene's tomb is 1180, and that scene took place 3 years prior to the start of the series, so the current year is at least 1184 and probably higher. (Because when Roy talks to the tomb, the impression is that Eugene has been dead for some time.) I can't remember if there are any other indications as to the date.

Azzurus

2008-06-25, 11:32 AM

Great comic! I loled
*PLOT!*

The best:
:roy: YOU CAN HEAR ME?

Shatteredtower

2008-06-25, 11:32 AM

I get the feeling that those irritated by the reset nature of the previous strip (though I think they're overstating it) might find the potential reset value for the conversation we're about to see even more annoying. Unless the Oracle tells Roy how he can contact Haley while he's still dead, any conversation they have here isn't something Roy will retain. Getting useful information is going to be hard enough as it is, since he's unable to offer payment or violent threat. About the only thing he can do is make a nuisance of himself, but Elan would be better qualified for such a tactic.

The Giant has a plan to get around such limitations, though. Should be amusing too.

Is it just me or has the comic been getting abit more... sexual... as of late?I don't think so. About 450 strips back, there was Haley's wardrobe malfunction while checking for traps and the innuendo that followed in the way Elan's misguided efforts at minimizing his armour check penalty. The spell that drove the chimera off was also highly suggestive in a very squicky fashion.

Then there were Roy's efforts with Miko about 250 strips back, the Misadventures of Roy and the Little People (Belkar and the assassin), maybe half the scenes in which Sabine made an appearance, Julia's efforts to catch Durkon's attention (as well as where Sabine was going to leave her tied up where no one was likely to notice), Elan and Haley's farewell kiss (and then some), and... well, yeah, this has been pretty par for the course throughout the run of the series.

The Gremlin

2008-06-25, 11:32 AM

Yay! The Oracle is back!
The Giant is as good as ever. I was sure that those theories had to be wrong.

Eric

2008-06-25, 11:39 AM

And this is one of the MANY ways Belkar's offing of the Oracle wasn't anywhere near as "bad" as when he offed the Gnome.

1) How many L0 Merchants in the wilderness get raise dead?
2) The scaly barstand was asking for it
3) If it was prophesied, Belkar didn't really (this time) have a choice

PS where's the diamond?

warmachine

2008-06-25, 11:40 AM

The Oracle's business must be really profitable. Raise Dead costs a LOT of money. Magical tests to block time wasters can't be a cheap service either.

dish

2008-06-25, 11:45 AM

PS where's the diamond?

In the black-robed lizardguy(?)'s left hand.

factotum

2008-06-25, 11:52 AM

I wonder if anyone is still going to claim that the Oracle can't REALLY see the future and is clearly pulling the wool over everyone's eyes... :smallbiggrin:

Istari

2008-06-25, 11:55 AM

The real question is if the memory charm will affect Roy when he leaves.

Lira

2008-06-25, 11:55 AM

Congrats to whoever predicted this one, I know someone did. I kind of doubt that the oracle will do anything to help Roy, but you never know.

I was wondering that too. In "Origin" we see the final date on Eugene's tomb is 1180, and that scene took place 3 years prior to the start of the series, so the current year is at least 1184 and probably higher. (Because when Roy talks to the tomb, the impression is that Eugene has been dead for some time.) I can't remember if there are any other indications as to the date.I think you're correct, the Unofficial Timeline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35936) says it's year 1184 too.

Red XIV

2008-06-25, 11:58 AM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...
Trying to avoid a prophesied event never works. If you do that, you inevitably end up inadvertently causing what you try to prevent. The Oracle is, well, an oracle. He knows this better than anybody.

Kwarkpudding

2008-06-25, 12:17 PM

I suppose this is also one of the reasons for the memory charm to exist. Apparantly the Oracle has an agenda for dying, and if one of those people or multiple spread the word that the Oracle is dead, business would come to a halt :smallwink:.

And if you ask me, "you don't need to shout" was one of the best lines yet :smallbiggrin:

Yendor

2008-06-25, 12:20 PM

Wow. That was great.

Belkar 1, Oracle 2.

Doug Lampert

2008-06-25, 12:24 PM

i loved it.... yeah it was kinda predictable that he will get raised.... but i didnt see him hearin Roy....

Why would he need to hear Roy.

He looks ahead to where the strip is compiled into a book (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)and reads whatever Roy says.

For him NOT to know what Roy's doing and saying would have been a contradiction of his known capabilities.

Fabuloso

2008-06-25, 12:28 PM

Really, really really enjoyed the strip.

Also, it seems to me that the Giant is updating a lot lately. Yay!

SPoD

2008-06-25, 12:29 PM

Belkar 1, Oracle 2.

Roy 0.

Not enough words

Lunaya

2008-06-25, 12:34 PM

The "Evil" Chart on Strip #489 shows that Roy died a little ways into the year 1183. It's been several months since then, so I assume we're close to 1184 by now.

Haruspex

2008-06-25, 12:41 PM

Since the oracle is covering his ears, which he wouldn't have to do if he was reading the future compilation, I assume he can indeed hear Roy.

Ramien

2008-06-25, 12:49 PM

And this is why kobolds are my favorite 'monster' race.

RMS Oceanic

2008-06-25, 12:54 PM

The "Evil" Chart on Strip #489 shows that Roy died a little ways into the year 1183. It's been several months since then, so I assume we're close to 1184 by now.

That little Roy isn't when he died, it's when he became Belkar's leader, i.e. Origin of PC's.

Person_Man

2008-06-25, 12:57 PM

HA! Once again a hilarious comic.

I'm guessing that you can only kill an oracle in the same fashion you kill a very powerful Jedi.

1) They must choose death, knowing that their death accomplishes some greater goal.

2) They have absolutely no choice, in that the universe/fate/gods/more powerful Force users have colluded to make sure that they die.

3) Their murder is so random an unpredictable that even their powers couldn't have guessed it.

I thought that #3 was how Belkar managed to kill the Oracle. But in this case the Oracle's precognition was clearly more powerful then Belkar's psychopathy.

Anywho, I'll keep reading and enjoying OotS regardless of where Rich chooses to take them. But in my personal and unimportant opinion, I hope the band gets back together some time soon. Raise Roy, un-Mark Belkar, reunite the party, and get on with the main campaign. This has been a really, really good plot run. But sometimes I feel like they're stuck on the Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_(TV_series)) island or Purgatory - it seems like the things are moving forward - and the scenes are all very well done - but I often feel jerked around. Characters keep talking about their goals, but they never get there. It's fun to see, but frustrating to get into and think about.

Ceaon

2008-06-25, 12:59 PM

I'm quite amazed nobody has started a Oracle-fanclub yet...

On a side note, we need an oracle smiley, so we can use it as a specualtion/prediction spoiler :smallamused:

raphfrk

2008-06-25, 01:00 PM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...

It probably works that once he has seen something it gets 'locked in' and he can't change it. In this case, all he saw was Balkar killing him and thus he was able to ensure that it does max damage to Balkar and no long term damage to himself.

Ninja

2008-06-25, 01:15 PM

I'm quite amazed nobody has started a Oracle-fanclub yet...

On a side note, we need an oracle smiley, so we can use it as a specualtion/prediction spoiler :smallamused:

whatc'ya talkin about? i have started it!!! today!!!! feel free to join.... just pick a title... all i miss is a Oracle smiley....

CarpeGuitarrem

2008-06-25, 01:16 PM

Oslecamo

2008-06-25, 01:17 PM

The giant proves again you can't really beat the DM unless he wants to be beat:smallbiggrin:

I always wondered why the Oracle seemed to take so few measures about self protection in front of the guests. Now I know. If he's safe he knows it, and if his life is in risk, well, then that's for what you got your caster wizard team:smallbiggrin:

After all, it's probably easier to get yourself killed and raised than trying to defeat all high lv adventurers who have a score to settle with you.

Ninja

2008-06-25, 01:20 PM

Are you sure? Because Roy's not really "present", is he? He ought to just be able to zip off to the Celestial Plane at any time.

yeah but once he gets rezzed he'll forget everything that hapened while he was dead.... right? i think so. but i might be wrong. so cud you all tell me. realy. do you forget your afterlife expirience when you get rezzed?

PaladinFreak

2008-06-25, 01:22 PM

Personally, I think the oracle was ignoring Roy earlier just to piss him off.

It seems in keeping with his style.

Lunaya

2008-06-25, 01:27 PM

That little Roy isn't when he died, it's when he became Belkar's leader, i.e. Origin of PC's.
Ah..my mistake. :smallsigh:

Querzis

2008-06-25, 01:28 PM

That little Roy isn't when he died, it's when he became Belkar's leader, i.e. Origin of PC's.

Well anyway it would make it about year 1884 now right? If the Oracle only die every 3 years, I get why he dont even bother with true resurection, he got more then enough time to get back his expert level.

Doug Lampert

2008-06-25, 01:30 PM

Since the oracle is covering his ears, which he wouldn't have to do if he was reading the future compilation, I assume he can indeed hear Roy.
You assume that he has to cover his ears for some reason other than to mess with Roy's mind.

Why?

I mean, what part of his reactions to Roy show that he's NOT deliberately messing with him?

Sure, he doesn't HAVE to do it. But if he hadn't wanted to get yelled at he didn't have to let Roy know that he knew all along what Roy was saying. So obviously the yelling doesn't bother him all that much.

When he covers his ears it COULD be because they yelling really bothers him and he deliberately provoked it because he LIKES pain and/or anoyance. Or it COULD be because he's messing with Roy. Or it could be something else. But of the first two possibilities I know which one I'm taking.

Porthos

2008-06-25, 01:31 PM

It might have been expected, but it was hilairious execution. Both at the Raise Dead and the "Yo Mama"

Three Cheers for The Oracle!!! :smallcool:

PS: The "hung like a bear" was a especially nice touch. :smalltongue:

Doug Lampert

2008-06-25, 01:35 PM

Any speculations on who the wizard and cleric's "boss" is?

Note that the oracle tells them to say hello for him.

Porthos

2008-06-25, 01:36 PM

Is it just me or has the comic been getting abit more... sexual... as of late?

I hate to break this too you, but the comic has always been sexual in nature.

Or did you miss the walking innuendo that is Sabine? :smalltongue:

KIDS

2008-06-25, 01:39 PM

The black bear story was.... AAAAAH! MY EYES!!!! LOL

chiasaur11

2008-06-25, 01:41 PM

The Oracle IS a magnificent bastard after all. He gets revenge, doesn't die, and gets a revenge yo momma joke. Good show.

Best strip in a while, and they've all been good.

raphfrk

2008-06-25, 01:53 PM

Roderick_BR

2008-06-25, 01:59 PM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...
I guess it's better to not cause paradox by allowing the profecy to be fulfilled, and then worrying with being rised later. Sucks to lose a level (and the whole pain stuff), but oh, well.

And keeping an emergency ressurrection (as some here guessed) shows the guy is smarter than we think :smallamused:

T-O-E

2008-06-25, 01:59 PM

Uh, Giant, you said 'him' twice in the seventh panel.

The Extinguisher

2008-06-25, 02:07 PM

Called it! I'm racking in the points today.

endoperez

2008-06-25, 02:07 PM

I'd like to chime in and say that the comic has been awesome lately. Many updates in relatively short time, good jokes, story seems to be picking up speed again and important things are happening.

Thanks for the awesome comic!

osricjm

2008-06-25, 02:14 PM

Am I fanwanking if I theorize that porting in skips past the memory charm?

Otherwise, those casters would not remember when to pop in.

Red XIV

2008-06-25, 02:15 PM

The real question is if the memory charm will affect Roy when he leaves.
Dunno. In addition to the question of whether dead people are affected, there's also the question of whether it's set off by simply leaving the Sunken Valley or if physically crossing the border is required. If it's the latter, then returning to heaven shouldn't set it off.

Also, there's a good chance that Eugene is scrying the whole thing, and he's clearly outside the memory charm's area of effect. If Roy learns anything useful for getting himself revived quicker or defeating Xykon after he's revived, and Roy forgets it due to the charm, Eugene's self-interest should result in him passing on the info.

mroozee

2008-06-25, 02:17 PM

Looks like teleporters don't get the memory-wipe treatment when they leave.

Eran of Arcadia

2008-06-25, 02:19 PM

I am excessively proud of myself for predicting that this strip would be rezzing the oracle based on seeing the title. I am lame like that . . .

FujinAkari

2008-06-25, 02:20 PM

Also, there's a good chance that Eugene is scrying the whole thing, and he's clearly outside the memory charm's area of effect. If Roy learns anything useful for getting himself revived quicker or defeating Xykon after he's revived, and Roy forgets it due to the charm, Eugene's self-interest should result in him passing on the info.

While true, there is ALSO a very good chance that

Roy will forget anything learned in the afterlife the moment he is rezzed, rendering much of this knowledge moot. After all, Eugene didn't realize that the Blood Oath would keep him out of heaven, despite dying -multiple- times before his actual death

Ninja

2008-06-25, 02:20 PM

The Oracle IS a magnificent bastard after all. He gets revenge, doesn't die, and gets a revenge yo momma joke. Good show.

yeah but yo be an MB you gotta be a villaan and have some master scheme going on... and i dont think oracle has one...

but anyway... i just realised that oracle was lucky Belkar had the MoJ... cause if he didn't, he'd of turned the oracle's head into a litter box for Mr. Scruffy, and he couldn't of been raised in that case.... thank god, B's a socyopath and earned himself an MoJ in the first place....

Red XIV

2008-06-25, 02:31 PM

While true, there is ALSO a very good chance that

Roy will forget anything learned in the afterlife the moment he is rezzed, rendering much of this knowledge moot. After all, Eugene didn't realize that the Blood Oath would keep him out of heaven, despite dying -multiple- times before his actual death

Having not read SoD, is it specified how many of those deaths occured after he made the blood oath?

but anyway... i just realised that oracle was lucky Belkar had the MoJ... cause if he didn't, he'd of turned the oracle's head into a litter box for Mr. Scruffy, and he couldn't of been raised in that case.... thank god, B's a socyopath and earned himself an MoJ in the first place....
The Oracle showed that he knows not just when he's going to die, but also how. He would've had those clerics use Ressurrection instead of Raise Dead in that scenario.

Doug Lampert

2008-06-25, 02:35 PM

yeah but yo be an MB you gotta be a villaan and have some master scheme going on... and i dont think oracle has one...

but anyway... i just realised that oracle was lucky Belkar had the MoJ... cause if he didn't, he'd of turned the oracle's head into a litter box for Mr. Scruffy, and he couldn't of been raised in that case.... thank god, B's a socyopath and earned himself an MoJ in the first place....If that hadn't have been the case they'd have used a Resurect rather than a Raise Dead.

pasko77

2008-06-25, 02:35 PM

it's official: the Oracle is my new favourite character!

Ninja

2008-06-25, 02:40 PM

If that hadn't have been the case they'd have used a Resurect rather than a Raise Dead.

come again now? i didn't understand that... you can resurect a decapiteded ( yeah, i cant spell it ) body whose head you dont have?

Essej

2008-06-25, 02:40 PM

Grey Watcher

2008-06-25, 02:44 PM

Am I fanwanking if I theorize that porting in skips past the memory charm?

Otherwise, those casters would not remember when to pop in.

Maybe they wrote it down?

Raging Gene Ray

2008-06-25, 02:49 PM

II'm now willing to argue that the Oracle deserved to be stabbed to death just for making this whole ordeal needlessly more complicated.

Roy probably shares that sentiment....

FujinAkari

2008-06-25, 02:51 PM

Having not read SoD, is it specified how many of those deaths occured after he made the blood oath?

It isn't specified how many, but

We know the Blood Oath was made before Eugene ever met his wife, before Roy or Julia were ever conceived. We also know that Eugene died so many times -after- Julia was conceived that she had come to accept and expect his resurrection, so much so that Eugene actually expressed worry over how she'd be able to handle that "Daddy is dead for real this time."

So yes, we know he died several times after the blood oath :)

JoseB

2008-06-25, 02:51 PM

come again now? i didn't understand that... you can resurect a decapiteded ( yeah, i cant spell it ) body whose head you dont have?

Yes, you can. Check the description of the resurrection spell according to the official text:

"This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death."

(Full text of the spell can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm)).

So, indeed, being decapitated is not a problem. Check the comic itself, anyway: The oracle says that the druid who will kill him is going to "chew [him] up into tiny pieces". That is much worse than simple decapitation, and yet it is not an obstacle for the resurrection spell! (which is different from raise dead; the latter requires a whole body).

Just my 2 eurocents!

Warren Dew

2008-06-25, 02:53 PM

It comes to mind that the Oracle could've said something to the others about Roy being there, and probably would've avoided being stabbed if he had. I'm now willing to argue that the Oracle deserved to be stabbed to death just for making this whole ordeal needlessly more complicated.

How do you figure? Belkar would still have gotten upset about his prophecy and would still have killed Oracle, Roy or nor Roy.

Now, if Belkar had been able to control himself, the clerics could have used the raise on Roy instead, but that's probably being unrealistic.

I also don't see any obligation on the part of the Oracle to be nice to Roy when Roy practically opened the conversation by insulting the Oracle's mother. Maybe Roy should have started with an "Excuse me, sir" instead of "Hey! Oracle!"

This will make it all the harder to figure out Belkar's mark has been triggered - good job on the Oracle's part there. Hopefully the Oracle will tell Roy whether he ever gets resurrected. (Not really a prediction, but still speculation on what will happen.)

Essej

2008-06-25, 03:03 PM

Interjecting that Roy's spirit was in the room at some point in the conversation would've distracted Belkar. I think it's pretty unreasonable to say things would've gone down the exact same way after that revelation.

Secondly, are you trying to say that the Oracle is justified in keeping the heroes from completing their goal to save the world just because Roy was rude to him?

Ninja

2008-06-25, 03:09 PM

Essej

2008-06-25, 03:11 PM

No time limit was specified in the prophecy, and the Oracle was trying to get out of it anyway.

Morgan Wick

2008-06-25, 03:22 PM

Well then.

The one thing keeping me from saying with 110% certainty that the Oracle will say something that Roy remembers when he leaves the valley is that the Oracle is the type to mess with Roy's head in that way.

In fact... come to think of it, he's a lot like Eugene in that way.

572 and maybe 573 will be very interesting, but I say we make it to 574 at the latest before moving off to someone else.

Warren Dew

2008-06-25, 03:27 PM

Interjecting that Roy's spirit was in the room at some point in the conversation would've distracted Belkar. I think it's pretty unreasonable to say things would've gone down the exact same way after that revelation.

Call me unreasonable, then. They were already trying to get Roy raised; the only thing useful they could really have learned from Roy was that he wouldn't refuse the raise, which they pretty much knew anyway. Being able to talk to Roy's ghost doesn't really change that situation at all, so I doubt it would have changed the outcome. Belkar's been pretty much killing anything and everything at the drop of a hat, so I don't see that being changed by the Oracle claiming to be able to talk to Roy.

Secondly, are you trying to say that the Oracle is justified in keeping the heroes from completing their goal to save the world just because Roy was rude to him?

That depends ... are the heroes going to succeed? We don't know, but the Oracle does. For all we know, their quest could be destined to backfire and cause the world to be destroyed, and the Oracle could be saving the world by impeding them.

That said, I think the Oracle was no more obligated to help out the Order of the Stick than the Order was to help out the Oracle on whatever he might need help on, irrespective of outcome.

Also, I have a sneaking suspicion the Oracle wants to talk to Roy about something privately. Who knows, maybe the Order can only succeed if Roy doesn't get raised, and Roy's player will have to switch to playing Celia.

Essej

2008-06-25, 03:38 PM

They also could've learned about the other party members from Roy, I'm sure they'd love to know what's going on.

Also, the Oracle said that Elan would have a happy ending, the world ending doesn't really mesh well with that prophecy. Just because he isn't obligated to help doesn't mean he shouldn't, choosing not to doesn't exactly make him a great person.

Red XIV

2008-06-25, 03:43 PM

Just because he isn't obligated to help doesn't mean he shouldn't, choosing not to doesn't exactly make him a great person.
He's a kobold, and a worshipper of Tiamat. No reason to think he would be a great person. I kind of doubt his alignment is Good.

Beholder1995

2008-06-25, 03:48 PM

They're probably lizardmen or trogs.

Nonsense. Lizardfolk are far bigger and Troglodytes have gray skin.

Deepkicker

2008-06-25, 03:53 PM

I really did not see this turn of events coming. Quite intrigued by those green dudes too...

Essej

2008-06-25, 03:54 PM

He's a kobold, and a worshipper of Tiamat. No reason to think he would be a great person. I kind of doubt his alignment is Good.

The people of this forum have made it painfully clear to me that it's ok to murder people as long as that person is evil in the 570 discussion, and so the Oracle being evil is just a good argument for Belkar's righteous stabbing, not against.

The_Kobold_Hero

2008-06-25, 03:55 PM

Thank god, the Oracle is hands down my favorite character, so this comic made everything far less depressing!

As for alignment speculation, I'd probably say true neutral. On one hand, he's selfish and likes twisting his messages so they aren't concrete. On the other, he always holds himself to rather strict rules. As far as morality goes, he really hasn't done anything evil, but really isn't a good person either.

Basically, Chaotic or True Neutral.

Selene

2008-06-25, 03:58 PM

What difference would it have made to the overall goal if the Oracle had told them Roy was there? Two words: Memory Charm

Also, Lizardfolk are about the same size as Goblins in SoD, IIRC.

Essej

2008-06-25, 04:04 PM

What difference would it have made to the overall goal if the Oracle had told them Roy was there? Two words: Memory Charm

Also, Lizardfolk are about the same size as Goblins in SoD, IIRC.

If they asked the Oracle specific questions about Roy after he told them of his presence, the Memory Charm would've been a non-issue.

*Edit*Preventing the speedy salvation of the world seems to be an argument in favor of the Oracle being evil to me.

Red XIV

2008-06-25, 04:11 PM

As for alignment speculation, I'd probably say true neutral. On one hand, he's selfish and likes twisting his messages so they aren't concrete. On the other, he always holds himself to rather strict rules. As far as morality goes, he really hasn't done anything evil, but really isn't a good person either.

Basically, Chaotic or True Neutral.
If he holds himself to a strict set of rules, wouldn't that put the Oracle in one of the Lawful alignments?

And he does seem to do that, giving the answer to the exact question asked even if it's not the answer the person wants. For example, he clearly wanted to tell Roy that Soon's Gate was Xykon's next target (even trying to convince him to change his question), but couldn't because it wasn't the answer to what Roy actually asked. And an even more extreme example will come on March 26, 1187; the Oracle will actually get himself killed by giving an answer other than what the asker wants to hear.

And just because he won't stay dead doesn't change the fact that being "chewed up into tiny pieces" is going to hurt a lot.

Aerysil

2008-06-25, 04:13 PM

Yay for last panels that make me laugh out loud!

AyuVince

2008-06-25, 04:20 PM

Being able to look into the future makes it so much easier to plan ahead. Good job oracle. Now let's see if he is able and willing to help Roy.

That being said, how's the housing market in Lickmyorangeballshalfling? I'd like to buy me a summer cottage there.

Selene

2008-06-25, 04:23 PM

It isn't specified how many, but

We know the Blood Oath was made before Eugene ever met his wife, before Roy or Julia were ever conceived. We also know that Eugene died so many times -after- Julia was conceived that she had come to accept and expect his resurrection, so much so that Eugene actually expressed worry over how she'd be able to handle that "Daddy is dead for real this time."

So yes, we know he died several times after the blood oath :)

The actual wording was "her daddy is going to die -- and not come back like last time." His final date of death was in 1180. Given that Julia would have been 13 then, and the last time he was raised before that was 1168, I'm guessing there was only the one time when she was a baby.

Behold_the_Void

2008-06-25, 04:35 PM

ref

2008-06-25, 04:55 PM

Heh... That druid is screwed...

No, he isn't. That's the problem. :smallbiggrin:

Adrilimos

2008-06-25, 04:58 PM

Zolem

2008-06-25, 05:01 PM

I so totaly called that pre-aranged thing. Most people did. But a lot of people thought he was gone for good. So pay up! Or I'll crit on a +5 FrostBurst Anarchic Keen Great Pick on you.

Antacid

2008-06-25, 05:08 PM

If he holds himself to a strict set of rules, wouldn't that put the Oracle in one of the Lawful alignments?

In 2e Planescape, Tiamat's Realm is in the first layer of the Nine Hells (Baator), which would make Tiamat Lawful Evil. LE seems like the right alignment for the oracle, given his overly literal answers and caution to use logic to try to stay alive rather than violate his own predictions.

Remirach

2008-06-25, 05:18 PM

It's probably 1185, actually. It's been over 3 months since we saw the passage of a new year, so everyone is probably on the same page by now (and assuming the Asian-themed lands have New Years like they do in our world, the celebration would have occurred a bit after the New Year in the western-themed countries anyway).

No, it's definitely 1184. I missed it, but Lunaya caught the graph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) -- Roy bit the big one in early 1184. In fact unless I'm reading it wrong (it's a bit hard to tell where the termination point is, with Belkar's head in the way), he specifically died in late February 1184.

SteveMB

2008-06-25, 05:39 PM

I'm glad the Oracle can see Roy, but I'm not sure how much help he can actually be. He will either tell him some sort of method to get a message across to Haley, or he will get bugged by Roy forever. There is no way Roy will give up on him now he knows the Oracle can see him. He might be the only person in the world, apart from Julia.

When the Oracle realizes the one hold Roy has on him (hanging around and being a PITA until the Oracle agrees to help him), he'll regret revealing that he can hear Roy. :smallwink:

Sir_Leorik

2008-06-25, 05:44 PM

Ooo, burn!

Is this the entrance of the new Dragonborn race in OOTS?

Yeah, these guys seem smarter than the Lizardfolk we've seen in the strip. Given that 4E races don't have Stat penalties, these guys are intelligent enough to become high level wizards or clerics, and their excellent manners shows that they have the CHA bonus that Dragonborn get.

David Argall

2008-06-25, 05:49 PM

Having not read SoD, is it specified how many of those deaths occured after he made the blood oath?

SOD/Origen Origen tells us Eugene died in 24, 43, 49, 58, 59, 68, & finally 80. It also approximates Roys birth around 55. So Eugene got raised 3 times before he met Sara and 3 times after. SoD says he took the Oath well before he met Sara. So at least 3 of the Raises happened after the Oath, quite possibly 4, with 5 possible.
So several.

Nice dig at Mrs. Greenhilt
Sara has not been whoring all of the afterlife.

She hasn't charged anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remirach
I was wondering that too. In "Origin" we see the final date on Eugene's tomb is 1180, and that scene took place 3 years prior to the start of the series, so the current year is at least 1184 and probably higher. (Because when Roy talks to the tomb, the impression is that Eugene has been dead for some time.) I can't remember if there are any other indications as to the date.

I think you're correct, the Unofficial Timeline says it's year 1184 too.

Assuming we take 489 as precisely correct [a rash assumption for a stick comic in particular], Roy died April 30, 1184. He would have then started viewing the world on August 20.
From there, we have a problem. By the ship, we have our mother to be showing, which suggests 3 months or so have passed. V's research is consistent with such a date too. That has to take some time. Also the Cloister spell should have blocked V's spell [unless we get tricky with the wordage] until about October. So a date in November seems quite possible.
However, the Oracle is located reasonably close to Azure City and for Haley to have turned back to visit the Oracle, we are looking at a date of about September 1 [& maybe the 10th now]. But this is too soon for Cloister to have expired. We can play with this a bit, but there is a problem here.
Anyway, we are well into the 2nd half of 1184.

yeah but once he gets rezzed he'll forget everything that hapened while he was dead.... right? i think so. but i might be wrong. so cud you all tell me. realy. do you forget your afterlife expirience when you get rezzed?
The point is under dispute.
Under game rules, the PC doesn't gain any knowledge while he is dead [tho there is no rule forbidding it either], so the presumption this is that the PC can't recall what has happened while he is gone. This is consistent with some aspects of Eugene's behavior too. However, there is nothing definitive on the point.
There is a definite [probably low] risk Roy forgets his visit to the Oracle when he returns to the heavens, and a definite [possibly high] risk he forgets when he is raised.

Querzis

2008-06-25, 06:04 PM

It's probably 1185, actually. It's been over 3 months since we saw the passage of a new year, so everyone is probably on the same page by now (and assuming the Asian-themed lands have New Years like they do in our world, the celebration would have occurred a bit after the New Year in the western-themed countries anyway).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html

It was AC new year. Its a different callendar and Elan said it was «a few months ago» for them. So since he is obviously talking about year 1184 (they started the quest in 1183) and since he said a few month ago instead of in a few months, we can safely say it coudnt have been mid-year yet. Three month passed since then so it simply cant be year 1185 yet.

RMS Oceanic

2008-06-25, 06:08 PM

My personal preferred theory, assuming the dead remember their afterlife experience, is that Eugene couldn't be bothered clearing the paperwork since, like Roy, he was so sure he was gonna get resurrected immediately anyway. It'd be like him.

Naltyrr

2008-06-25, 06:34 PM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...

>_> or saying "stick around half an hour and I'll get your friend a rez"? somehow I think that might have worked in this case...maybe the oracle is just spiteful and wanted to stick it to Belkar. not that Belkar didn't deserve what he got, I'm just sayin the guy that can see the future might have altered things if he had felt like it.

teratorn

2008-06-25, 06:37 PM

The people of this forum have made it painfully clear to me that it's ok to murder people as long as that person is evil in the 570 discussion, and so the Oracle being evil is just a good argument for Belkar's righteous stabbing, not against.

Don't twist other people's arguments. It wasn't Belkar's alignment it were his actions. Belkar killed in cold blood with no provocation and no immediate danger to him. His deeds deserve punishment.

silvadel

2008-06-25, 06:43 PM

It is very simple -- Remember when Roy went to Celestia -- they let him in because he TRIED... Up until that last death Eugene was still TRYING to find Xykon... He actively had adventuring parties trying to find information etc...

The last death was after he affirmatively gave up trying.

After Right-eye had offered him a way to go after Xykon and he REFUSED to

Bitzeralisis

2008-06-25, 06:44 PM

Nice. The Oracle is very punctual.

otakuryoga

2008-06-25, 07:06 PM

Damn Roy!!! he just called yo mama a Ho..beat the crap out of him for that lie....oh, wait, never mind.........

intelligence...hung like bear...soooooo soooooooooo wrong

Draz74

2008-06-25, 07:16 PM

On the topic of the Oracle's alignment, I'd definitely say it's a toss-up between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. I'm leaning more towards LN, but LE would go better with Tiamat and with kobolds in general. (If he is LE, he's a good example of a non-fanatical, pragmatic, greedy and maybe slightly sadistic but not malevolent LE.)

Warren Dew

2008-06-25, 08:05 PM

I'm just sayin the guy that can see the future might have altered things if he had felt like it.

I think the opposite is true. If you don't know what the future is, you feel like your actions can shape it. Once you do know the future, it's like the past: you're powerless to change it.

Essej

2008-06-25, 08:58 PM

Don't twist other people's arguments. It wasn't Belkar's alignment it were his actions. Belkar killed in cold blood with no provocation and no immediate danger to him. His deeds deserve punishment.

Belkar wasn't an immediate threat to Haley and is in fact just a cursed Periapt of Wisdom +4*(at most) away from being a saint, so I can't see how you can justify her killing him either, but you certainly tried to make that case.

*http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

Lunaya

2008-06-25, 09:17 PM

I know it's not likely, but I'm still crossing my fingers that this experience will somehow boost Belkar's Wisdom score. Apparently, all it takes is a boost to that one stat for him to go from evil to good. :P

LordSintax

2008-06-25, 09:21 PM

that little orange bastard.... heh!

Fitzclowningham

2008-06-25, 09:36 PM

Clever thing the Giant did there - the kobold's yo mama joke tells us he can see at least the present of the afterlife planes. He knows if Eugene is scrying them, and so won't tell Roy anything he doesn't want to get past the memory charm.

Also, I don't think one can determine the Oracle's alignment based on his association with Tiamat. He's not a cleric, so he shouldn't be assumed to be a worshipper because he gets powers from her. The whole oracle thing seems to be something that came to the kobold without him seeking it - he didn't petition Tiamat for it. My guess is he's LN. He messes with people, but there's no evil cackle or agenda like you'd expect from an LE monster.

Fafnir13

2008-06-25, 09:54 PM

Nice comic. Exactly what I was hoping would happen. Looking forward to their conversation. Of course, now would be a great time to zip back to one of the other parties, just to leave us all hanging in suspense...

VForVaarsuvius

2008-06-25, 09:56 PM

Well Belkar doesn’t even remember killing him so as far as Belkar knows his prophecy has not yet been fulfilled so if they ever meet again Belkar might try to kill him but we also know that Belkar will not be the next one to kill him, do we know the date of these events? Do we know how far away March 26th, 1187 is?

Also Props to the people that said "The oracle will be raised", that "Roy and the oracle will have a scene together" and that "The Oracle will get a mama joke in at Roy" I've been reading those theories for over a week now :)

Oh gosh! Complete coincidence here...
I was reading through the comic archieve, because I was bored, and on the Deva in the Afterlife's measurement of Belkar's alignment or whatever guess what was on the bottom?

1182 1183 1184
Years! Years lining up with Belkar's evil acts! So that means that it's, presumably, 1184 or 1185 now- So that gives us a very solid idea...

Ellye

2008-06-25, 10:01 PM

I was wondering...
How do the Trogs avoid the Memory Erasing field? Perhaps the Oracle have some sort of control over that, since his prophecies aren't forgotten and such?

Lizard Lord

2008-06-25, 10:02 PM

I don't think he is lawful, and I haven't seen anything that he did that would be considered evil. I am saying that he is neutral for now.

Lizard Lord

2008-06-25, 10:05 PM

I was wondering...
How do the Trogs avoid the Memory Erasing field? Perhaps the Oracle have some sort of control over that, since his prophecies aren't forgotten and such?

I believe he enters a special trance, and anything he says in that trance is what they remember.

Also I think the memory erase enchantment is triggered when someone crosses the border. Since the troggs, or lizard people, or whatever they are teleport they do not cross the border.

dps

2008-06-25, 10:12 PM

Personally, I'm guessing lizardfolk for the green guys. As for the oracle's alignment, I'll pass. Too little data.

Balgus

2008-06-25, 10:14 PM

Why do all that setup if Belkar's memory is gonna get erased. If they never got their answers, won't they just come back and look for him again? and when he does, wont Belkar just get mad again and kill him .. again.

EvilJames

2008-06-25, 10:22 PM

Ooo, burn!

Is this the entrance of the new Dragonborn race in OOTS?

Thankfully no. They look like Oots troglodytes.

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...
He probably can't. Besides any oracle worth his/her salt knows that trying to prevent the vision is often the cause of the vision coming to pass (See every Greek tragedy ever) So it's much safer in a world of magic to just undo the results after the fact.

ericgrau

2008-06-25, 11:01 PM

Uh, Giant, you said 'him' twice in the seventh panel.

Oh dang he's right. Better fix that typo.

Faramir

2008-06-25, 11:02 PM

It probably works that once he has seen something it gets 'locked in' and he can't change it. In this case, all he saw was Balkar killing him and thus he was able to ensure that it does max damage to Balkar and no long term damage to himself.

There are lots of possible explanations. One not unreasonable one might be that

if he purposely uses his foreknowledge to avoid fulfilling one of his prophecies then he loses his oracular powers. That's a way that I'd be likely to run it. But I'm sure the Giant has his own reasoning which may or may not match mine.

Warren Dew

2008-06-25, 11:04 PM

I admit to more curiousity about those lizard guys' boss than about the lizard guys themselves. I bet we run into their boss again later ... if he isn't someone we already know.

JordanGreywolf

2008-06-25, 11:11 PM

Woot! The oracle's back!

And I think I can understand why he's sarcastic and cranky. He can see the future, but can't change it. He can prepare for the aftermath, but he still can't avert his inevitable and very painful death(s).

Anyway, I adore the ornery little orange toothy guy for some reason. :D

Lunaya

2008-06-25, 11:22 PM

So to recap:

A few pages ago, the Oracle was dead and Belkar had the last laugh.

Now, Belkar could be dying and the Oracle has the last laugh (on Belkar and Roy.

I love this comic. :smallamused:

Smoke_Rulz

2008-06-25, 11:54 PM

Very awesome twist. Totally glad the Oracle's not dead, and it'll be interesting to see how it unfolds from here, now that Roy can be seen by someone.

the_tick_rules

2008-06-26, 12:12 AM

The revolving door of the afterlife continues.

kukn

2008-06-26, 01:16 AM

Yet again, a brilliant strip. Can't believe it's even possible to have so many great updates in a row.

Max_Sinister

2008-06-26, 02:36 AM

Wow, strips are coming at a fast rate now...

Sometimes the Oracle is a real ****, isn't it?

flamingoptimus

2008-06-26, 02:55 AM

Question:

So if Roy comes back alive, would he remembers these even that took place in his afterlife?

NEXT:

I suspect Oracle let himself get killed by Belkar for a good reason to aid the success of the OOTS rather than to just activate his MoJ.

What say u peeps?

Coke_Can64

2008-06-26, 03:47 AM

I suspect Oracle let himself get killed by Belkar for a good reason to aid the success of the OOTS rather than to just activate his MoJ.

Speculation:

Umm... interesting... maybe because of the MoJ OotS might get back together? I'm not sure how this could do much though, :belkar: is puking up like a fire-hydrant, :vaarsuvius: is working hirself into an early grave, :roy: is dead, :xykon: and :redcloak: are possibly the missing part of the equation maybe? Or not? :smallconfused:

Oh, yeah! Great comic! :smallbiggrin:

SmartAlec

2008-06-26, 05:18 AM

I suspect Oracle let himself get killed by Belkar for a good reason to aid the success of the OOTS rather than to just activate his MoJ.

I'll raise you that theory and go on to wonder if the Oracle ignored Roy for the same reason; that if Roy had been raised then and there, or if Roy and Haley had been able to talk to each other with the Oracle as interpreter, it would have resulted in a disastrous future...

2008-06-26, 06:13 AM

I think eventually once Belkar doesn't get better and stays sick someone is going to put two and two together and realize that he's triggered the mark.

As for the current comic, all I can say is: why would the wife cheat on a druid for a bear? Can't the druid wildshape into something even better? :P

Renegade Paladin

2008-06-26, 06:27 AM

Ooo, burn!

Is this the entrance of the new Dragonborn race in OOTS?
No. That's how lizardfolk have been drawn in the comic in the past.

Morty

2008-06-26, 06:30 AM

No. That's how lizardfolk have been drawn in the comic in the past.

I thought the guys in last panel of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) strip are lizardfolk. But then, since they're underground, I guess they're troglodytes.

AdamG

2008-06-26, 06:40 AM

OotS is becoming a bit too predictable for my tastes. I hope it becomes slightly less so in the future. :smallsigh:

DeepChild

2008-06-26, 06:46 AM

I loved the "Tele

port!" Nice touch Rich.

Dubiela

2008-06-26, 07:47 AM

I wonder if the MoJ will deactivate itself now that Belkar's bad act was reversed.

And...

... what kind of help Roy may get from the Oracle? He can't just pay him with ghost gold coins! Probably he'll haunt the kobold to piss him off to get raised... Or at least to discover by what means he can communicate to living people...

The problem is... he might just forget that after he left the Oracle temple boundaries...

Dunesen

2008-06-26, 07:48 AM

I so totaly called that pre-aranged thing. Most people did. But a lot of people thought he was gone for good. So pay up! Or I'll crit on a +5 FrostBurst Anarchic Keen Great Pick on you.

Do you accept pieces of string?

SteveMB

2008-06-26, 07:49 AM

I wonder if the MoJ will deactivate itself now that Belkar's bad act was reversed.
Why would it?

DigoDragon

2008-06-26, 08:15 AM

Their murder is so random an unpredictable that even their powers couldn't have guessed it.

I always favor oracles that cannot predict everything and/or have false predictions. Otherwise people tend to give up trying to do anything about their future and that's no fun. When there is a chance that a prophesy can be altered, that's when the story gets interesting to me. :smallsmile:

King of Nowhere

2008-06-26, 08:20 AM

I was wondering why the oracle didn't dismiss the memory charm... now I know, nothing was going to change. And it looks like the oracle die and get raised on a regular base. Probably that's why he's rude to customers, he know many of them are going to kill him.
Crap, the oracle should get that level back just by roleplaying XP! He's a low level expert, but he managed to defeat a 13th level ranger-barbarian. Looks like we're at Belkar 0 - Oracle 1000. And to add insult to injury, Belkar himself provided part of the money for the resurrection!

Probably the memory charm is tuned to not affect determinated people, like the resurrectiong lizardfolks. I mean, it would be annoying if the charm affected the oracle everytime he went, say, visiting his sister who lives out of the valley, or if every inhabitant of Lickmy.... lost memory everytime he left the city.

About the oracle's alignment, him following some quite strict codes is a sign of lawfulness, but we really have too little data to say. Plus, he knows so many, that an action who seems evil or good may have a completely different meaning, and/or be a set up for things to happen in years to come.

VForVaarsuvius

2008-06-26, 09:29 AM

I admit to more curiousity about those lizard guys' boss than about the lizard guys themselves. I bet we run into their boss again later ... if he isn't someone we already know.

Nine sides materiel, much? (Or at least, probably thrown around a few times on the forums:smalltongue:)

aliron

2008-06-26, 09:47 AM

Looks like people only lose their memory when they physically cross the border, and not when they teleport. How does teleport work in DnD? I did not think you could teleport into the valley because that would enable you to circumvent the tests.

silvadel

2008-06-26, 09:49 AM

I'll raise you that theory and go on to wonder if the Oracle ignored Roy for the same reason; that if Roy had been raised then and there, or if Roy and Haley had been able to talk to each other with the Oracle as interpreter, it would have resulted in a disastrous future...

The futures predicted by the oracle do not seem mutable. IE what he sees happens and can not be changed. Nothing conditional about it. Actually, constantly seeing future events that you have no ability to anything about could turn you into a person with personality traits just like the oracle has.

hajo

2008-06-26, 10:09 AM

Wow, strips are coming at a fast rate now...
I wasn't even done reading the forum-thread of the previous comic, when the current one was posted :smallsmile:

And I think the memory-charm is set up for (against?) customers only, so everybody else can use the employee-exit :smallamused:

Ted The Bug

2008-06-26, 10:40 AM

Thog--er--Ted, is happy with today's strip!
And yes, they're coming at a faster rate this week.
/me happydances.

lord of kobolds

2008-06-26, 10:51 AM

FOOLS!!!!
You cannot kill a kobold.
Well, actually it's pretty easy, but sometimes they come back.
...
VICTORY FOR KOBOLDS!!!!!
and other reptiles who res'd him

chibibar

2008-06-26, 11:09 AM

It looks like it's indeed hard to really kill the Oracle...

But wouldn't it be easier to prevent the deaths ?

Like guard who shots from crossbow in just right moment...

I am not sure if this was answered (I haven't made pass page 1 yet hehe)

but if you have raise dead or magical means to bring yourself back to life, why prevent it? There are couple of reasons a GM (or storyteller in this case) would want a character died.

1. The enemy THINKS he/she kill the target. Thus will drop their guard and go on their merry way.

2. If you try to prevent the death, sometimes worst can happen instead. How would you prevent this oracle's death? immune to normal weapon? then Belkar might swore vengences and everytime he comes back, he wants to kill the oracle. Or maybe an epic fight breaks out and actually break something magical (like blowing a castle? hehe)

3. Sometimes it is a less hassle just to die and come back.

The Gremlin

2008-06-26, 11:33 AM

Rizban

2008-06-26, 12:08 PM

It's a good thing those green guys asked about when they were supposed to raise the Oracle next, or the memory charm would have prevented them from remembering to come back.

hamishspence

2008-06-26, 12:14 PM

Does the memory charm affect people who teleport out?

And the lizardmen look different from OOTS troglodytes (OtOoPCs) which are darker, more pointy snouts, and crest sticks up, like a mohican hairdo.

Eric

2008-06-26, 12:26 PM

Call me unreasonable, then. They were already trying to get Roy raised; the only thing useful they could really have learned from Roy was that he wouldn't refuse the raise, which they pretty much knew anyway.

How about

1) The cloister spell
2) V's location (approximate)
3) O'Chul's plight
4) The birds

Eric

2008-06-26, 12:36 PM

I don't think he is lawful, and I haven't seen anything that he did that would be considered evil. I am saying that he is neutral for now.

Yes. You can say that.

You'd be *wrong*, mind.

Evil has a bigger range than "Neutral->Cackle". The oracle is a stickler for the rules. Lawful. He engineered revenge out of proportion to the act done against him (ow that hurt, thanks, guys. didn't even get time to go rigid). Evil.

Tiamat is LE.

Kobolds are mostly LE.

I think there may be some circumstantial evidence for "LE" for the oracle's alignment here...

Your evidence is you aren't looking so haven't found anything one way or another.

ericgrau

2008-06-26, 12:46 PM

Chill man, you don't have to rub it in. I was thinking about the same thing based on his actions, race and deity, though I didn't know about the lawful part. His actions seem LE or NE. So based on that and the other Eric's post it seems almost certain that he's LE.

So I don't think he cares the least bit about Roy or any of the OotS. But he might want to further his own interests, or prevent the destruction of the cosmos at least.

Shatteredtower

2008-06-26, 01:11 PM

Evil has a bigger range than "Neutral->Cackle".

True.

The oracle is a stickler for the rules. Lawful.Fairly likely, though a chaotic can also be a stickler for rules, so long as they're personal in nature.

He engineered revenge out of proportion to the act done against him (ow that hurt, thanks, guys. didn't even get time to go rigid). Evil.No, that was certainly a proportional response. Murder is murder, even when reversing it is possible. The Oracle simply made sure to close a loophole that otherwise would have let Belkar get away with it -- the same loophole that let him got away with murdering a helpful gnome merchant on the road. The mark was placed on Belkar for good and just reasons. There's no reason the punishment should be lessened just because the victim took precautions against the crime and kept his attacker from evading his due justice on a technicality.

I agree that he's most likely lawful evil for most of the reasons you just gave, but his handling of Belkar was entirely appropriate -- even the bits that went out of their way to rub things in.

Red XIV

2008-06-26, 02:03 PM

I always favor oracles that cannot predict everything and/or have false predictions. Otherwise people tend to give up trying to do anything about their future and that's no fun. When there is a chance that a prophesy can be altered, that's when the story gets interesting to me. :smallsmile:
Typically, that issue is handled by the fact that prophecies often don't mean what you think they mean.

Vaarsuvius4181

2008-06-26, 02:04 PM

possible, but let us shed some light on an alternate hypothesis(nale lol)

The Oracle is not Evil or Good, because the town thing was clever, but everything bad does not happen as a direct result of the oracle. Why? Because the oracle DOES NOT know everything. He may say so, but when Roy was talking to him before he didn't know roy was there, so He doesn't know everything. He also Isnt evil because he has enough knowledge to take over the world. He knows everything that happens. He said so himself, being an oracle sucks, so what keeps him there? Even Xykon wouldnt pass that offer up to have the O. give him all the statistics of battle. I mean, He would be undefeatable.

Now, If everyone would kindly shut up for a second about the Oracle being good or evil, We must examine more Important things. Why can Roy now be heard by the Oracle? he could've ignored him before but that doesn't make any sense. Why would he now listen to roy when hes not even talking to him this time? This will all probably be revealed in the next strip, but Rich has proved my wrong on that before.

See ya.

Ninja

2008-06-26, 02:15 PM

Because the oracle DOES NOT know everything. He may say so, but when Roy was talking to him before he didn't know roy was there, so He doesn't know everything.

he knew Roy was there he just pretended he didn't hear him. He ignored him, cuz ke knew that, Haley, B , an Celia are coming, and didn't want Roy yelin to him " Tell them i'm here!'. Also, he does know everything..... he can see the future anytime he wants.... there is so much proof of this it wuoldn't fit in the post...

He also Isnt evil because he has enough knowledge to take over the world. He knows everything that happens. He said so himself, being an oracle sucks, so what keeps him there?

Ever thought that his deity told him to stay there? Or that he saw something in the future and decided to stay there? Or he simply doesn't want to take over the world, because he doesn't want to bother with adventurers....

sihnfahl

2008-06-26, 02:23 PM

1) The cloister spell
Haley and Belkar already knew about this thanks to Celia.

2) V's location (approximate)
Roy only knows that V is on a boat somewhere in the Southern Ocean, sailing around. Not very helpful. "Today, V's at latitude 49, longitude 50. Yesterday, V was at latitude 47, longitude 48. The day before that, V was at latitude 51, longitude 52..."

3) O'Chul's plight
Roy returned to Celestia before we hit that side-story; he never saw O'Chul or what the Paladin was going through.

4) The birds
Roy was playing a D&D game with the Archon at the time V sent out the birds - and when Haley and Belkar ate them...

factotum

2008-06-26, 02:36 PM

The hilarity of the thing is that before the Oracle was raised, they had no memory of him dying. Thus, they would have come back. But now, they'll still come back and he really will be alive, and thus they won't remember any of it and think nothing happened. Then, possibly, Belkar will ask why his prophecy didn't come true. The Oracle will tell him everything. Then B will perhaps kill the Oracle again...

Except for the minor detail that we KNOW when the Oracle will next die--he'll be killed by a druid in 1187, which is some three years in the future. Assuming the Oracle's other prediction about Belkar (that he should savour his next birthday cake) means Belkar dies, he ain't going to be around to try and kill the Oracle.

Of course, the Oracle's prediction of his next death does indirectly tell us that the Snarl doesn't destroy the world anytime in the next three years!

Eric

2008-06-26, 03:04 PM

Haley and Belkar already knew about this thanks to Celia.

Roy only knows that V is on a boat somewhere in the Southern Ocean, sailing around. Not very helpful. "Today, V's at latitude 49, longitude 50. Yesterday, V was at latitude 47, longitude 48. The day before that, V was at latitude 51, longitude 52..."

Roy returned to Celestia before we hit that side-story; he never saw O'Chul or what the Paladin was going through.

Roy was playing a D&D game with the Archon at the time V sent out the birds - and when Haley and Belkar ate them...

Celia knew some stuff. Eugene knew a lot more. Also, they don't know that the other half of the party are looking so badly for them. Well, V is, anyway.

I'm pretty sure the scry spell gives location a little better than that. Not much cop otherwise.

It's hard to tell the exact timeline because it's not there, but you could be right, you could be wrong.

There's a lot more scope for finding stuff out than "I'm willing to come back".

Eric

2008-06-26, 03:06 PM

Of course, the Oracle's prediction of his next death does indirectly tell us that the Snarl doesn't destroy the world anytime in the next three years!

No, if Belkar is still throwing up, he'd better have enjoyed his last cake, 'cos he's not going to be able to eat the next one.

Eric

2008-06-26, 03:17 PM

Murder is murder, even when reversing it is possible.

How can it be?

Is the oracle still dead?

No.

So how can there be a murder?

Because the oracle and a guy say "he was totally killed, your honour".

It isn't that the murder was possible to reverse but that it was CERTAIN to be reversed. Which is why the killing of the gnome is a worse act. Add to that, the gnome wasn't asking for a kicking, and it IS what we'd call murder.

For the oracle, all Belkar has done is

a) take some XP
b) used up a diamond (which I missed...)
c) made him feel some pain
d) wasted some time

If this were to be considered murder, the oracle should be calling the police in for Belkar AND the Druid.

Death in D&D is just the DM's way of slowing you down.

And pre-empting revenge IS an evil act.

Think about The Count Of Monte Cristo. When he sets up losses to get revenge on the moneylender by causing him to choose the poorhouse or suicide, THAT was a bad act. And in the book, Edmund doesn't really get away with it scott free. He's warned again and again to step away from revenge.

And, since the Kobold's death was partly because he WAS being a complete and utter richard-the-third and therefore probably (in this world) downgrading the crime to aggravated homicide, this was to some degree the Oracle ensuring that Belkar would have the pain of the MoJ.

Or, if the future predicted is avoidable, the actions taken were partly to prove the oracle right. Adding revenge to that is seriously OTT.

Some people don't have a problem with it, because this is all within the remit of a magnificent bastard.

There seem to be a lot of people who can't like characters that are evil. IT'S A COMIC, DUDES! If you like people in real life who act like this, worry.

Ninja

2008-06-26, 03:27 PM

b) used up a diamond (which I missed...)

the diamond is in the lizard's hand when he raises the Oracle.... 4th panel, lizard in the dark robe, left hand....

King of Nowhere

2008-06-26, 03:38 PM

Roy only knows that V is on a boat somewhere in the Southern Ocean, sailing around. Not very helpful. "Today, V's at latitude 49, longitude 50. Yesterday, V was at latitude 47, longitude 48. The day before that, V was at latitude 51, longitude 52..."

They even doubt that V and the others are still alive, and are quite confused on their next actions (thus the visit to the oracle). If they talk to Roy, they will know that they just need to find someone who can cast sending, and that they shouldn't worry that much.

It isn't that the murder was possible to reverse but that it was CERTAIN to be reversed.
Applying this point of view, robbing a bank won't be bad because they made an insurance. And tearing hairs won't be bad, because they grow again. And probably the oracle didn't do anything bad to Belkar, because he's going to have the curse removed sooner or later.
Belkar totally stabbed him, with the will of killing him. How can this not be that bad?

And, since the Kobold's death was partly because he WAS being a complete and utter richard-the-third
So, now being rude to people is a good reason to be stabbed?

And to go forward, I believe that at this point activating the mark of justice would have been a good act even if it weren't for the killing of the oracle. Just for the gnome. And the guard. And the 15 people he murdered in otoopc. And all the people he surely murdered without us even knowing.

Doug Lampert

2008-06-26, 03:40 PM

How can it be?.

By being an unlawful killing. That's pretty much the definition.

Is the oracle still dead?

So if you steal my car and the police recover it and return it to me there was no theft? That's MORONIC!

If you assault someone and they heal it's not a crime?

If you kidnap someone and they are freed it's not a crime?

Why the F**K do you think murder is different? He killed the oracle. It was a murder.

No.

So how can there be a murder?

Same way there can have been a theft even if the property is returned or replaced. And in this case it cost thousands of gold and a level to replace it.

Because the oracle and a guy say "he was totally killed, your honour".

It isn't that the murder was possible to reverse but that it was CERTAIN to be reversed.

So what?

It was still a murder.

Just as "borrowing" something without permission that you "know" will be replaced is still theft. There's nothing in the definition of murder that says it's invalidated by Raise Dead.

DougL

sihnfahl

2008-06-26, 03:46 PM

Celia knew some stuff. Eugene knew a lot more. Also, they don't know that the other half of the party are looking so badly for them. Well, V is, anyway.
Eugene told Roy nothing about the Cloister spell. All Roy knew was that V's scrying of Haley was blocked. Roy complained to his dad that they probably wouldn't be able to scry; Eugene pointed out that they had Epic scrying on their side in Celestia. 510. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html)
Celia, on the other hand, told Haley and Belkar about the Cloister spell that was over AC, how it worked, its limitations, that it would wear off on them in a few weeks once they left AC, and all the spells it blocked. 532. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

I'm pretty sure the scry spell gives location a little better than that. Not much cop otherwise.
Scry spells focus on the person/object being scryed and its immediate surroundings (10 feet).

It's hard to tell the exact timeline because it's not there, but you could be right, you could be wrong.
Roy returns to Celestia. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0534.html)
Roy starts a game with the Archon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html)
Eugene informs Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0565.html), who is still playing the game, that Haley is headed to the Oracle. Roy wasn't watching.

Essej

2008-06-26, 03:47 PM

B.I.T.T.

2008-06-26, 04:22 PM

Dude! I totally called it! Good comic as ever.

EponymousKid

2008-06-26, 04:51 PM

Anyone else catch that dig at Roy's mom? That was pretty harsh.

Oh, and apparently, the Oracle's mother was, in fact, grapefruit-like.

Raging Gene Ray

2008-06-26, 04:56 PM

Anyone else catch that dig at Roy's mom? That was pretty harsh.

My question is...how did he know that about Roy's mom? Does Tiamat grant free afterlife porn as part of the Standard Oracle Package?

teratorn

2008-06-26, 06:36 PM

I think the point he was trying to make was that the real reason most people find murder so heinous is that it is irreversible. Having him pop up a few minutes later really lessens the impact. It's still murder, but murder doesn't mean as much when death isn't permanent.
Yes but from that perspective, even when resurrection is not possible, murder wouldn't look so bad because good characters get into incredibly happy afterlifes. By killing that gnome Belkar sent him to a much better place. For the morals in the game to make sense you need to deal with death as if it were permanent, and the afterlife not a blessing.

Aris Katsaris

2008-06-26, 06:38 PM

I think the point he was trying to make was that the real reason most people find murder so heinous is that it is irreversible.

Without the possibility to compare irreversible murder with reversible murder in real life, it's very hard to argue how heinous we'd find reversible murder to be.

Most people find rape heinous. Most people find torture heinous. Even if there's no permanent physical damage. What's the definition of heinousness?

Having him pop up a few minutes later really lessens the impact. It's still murder, but murder doesn't mean as much when death isn't permanent.

Agreed that it doesn't mean as *much* as in our world, but that doesn't mean we can merely dismiss it.

As a sidenote, it's also hard to compare the severity of murder to ours in a world where afterlife is a known fact, not something to be merely hoped or feared.

Aris Katsaris

2008-06-26, 06:44 PM

By killing that gnome Belkar sent him to a much better place. For the morals in the game to make sense you need to deal with death as if it were permanent, and the afterlife not a blessing.

Um, no. The fact they allowed Belkar to still be with them at all after his first murders of innocents only makes sense in a world where murder is a much less serious offense than in ours.

And frankly I would seriously not appreciate you sending me to "a much better place" and separating me from my friends family and loved ones against my bloody wishes.

TheCheshireHat

2008-06-26, 06:54 PM

My question is...how did he know that about Roy's mom? Does Tiamat grant free afterlife porn as part of the Standard Oracle Package?

Apparently :smallwink:

More seriously, it's just that the Oracle is nigh omniscient. Lets face it, there seems to be VERY little he doesn't know, at least regarding present and future events

David Argall

2008-06-26, 06:55 PM

Why the F**K do you think murder is different? He killed the oracle. It was a murder.

This depends on the definition of murder.

If you check thru medical cases, you will find references to people who were legally dead. Their heart had stopped, or the brain flatlined...whatever the local legal standard for dead was. But thanks to new and immediate medical methods, the victim was revived and recovered.
In some of these cases, the victim was the victim of foul play, but the attacker was not charged with murder because the victim was able to leave the hospital. But by the legal standards, it had been murder.

Now in the OOTS case, the same situation applied. The Oracle temporarily met the standards for dead, and thus the crime of murder. But the victim was revived by prompt medical attention. So it is not clear that this legally qualifies as murder.

Belkar needs a good lawyer [fortunately available, but unfortunately probably not interested in taking his case] and to hope the standards of the nearest community are not used, but he might be able to get the charges reduced to battery with great bodily harm [tho given his past record, he may not want to].

Dubiela

2008-06-26, 06:57 PM

My question is...how did he know that about Roy's mom? Does Tiamat grant free afterlife porn as part of the Standard Oracle Package?

Hmm... perhaps the Oracle learnt about Roy's mother condition at the afterlife by himself.

Remirach

2008-06-26, 06:59 PM

I find the argument as to whether the killing of the Oracle "really counts as murder" to be extremely ironic, given that Belkar himself hoped and was counting on the idea that murder would still count as murder even if the victim was brought back to life when he attempted to provoke Miko into killing him.

teratorn

2008-06-26, 07:06 PM

And frankly I would seriously not appreciate you sending me to "a much better place" and separating me from my friends family and loved ones against my bloody wishes.
No problem, Belkar would also kill your friends, family and loved ones.

Belkar never killed "innocents" while with the order, up to the break of OOTS. He was separated from the order when he killed the guard. And Roy agreed with the MoJ, so it was considered as something quite serious. But David's take on this makes some sense, lawyers would have their hands full with this kind of stuff. Belkar, even agreeing to pay for resurrection got six years.

The Gremlin

2008-06-26, 08:14 PM

ref

2008-06-26, 08:24 PM

This thread is about to turn into page 8, and noone yet mentioned how close to Vaarsuvius' one of those cloaks is? hehe...

BenjCano

2008-06-26, 08:40 PM

But the victim was revived by prompt medical attention. So it is not clear that this legally qualifies as murder.

If you replace the word "medical" with the word "magical" (I know, I know, they're so alike, what with beginning with an 'm' and ending 'cal'), then you're very much correct. A specific magical modality that restored the departed soul into its deceased corpse.

A useful analogy to the specific situation would be the act of theft; just because stolen property can be returned to the owner does not mean that theft did not occur. The Stickverse contains both a method of defining death that we lack (the soul having gone to whatever afterlife it is destined for) and a means of undoing said death.

But it doesn't mean that Belkar didn't murder the Oracle just because it was magically undone.

Blaznak

2008-06-26, 09:46 PM

What a fun strip!

However, I'm imagining this means the Snarl can't be escaping and resetting reality until at least after the Oracle bites the dust to the druid? And why bother to even get resurrected if you are just going to die again, horribly, to the Snarl? Dunno. Many questions here!

Later!

holywhippet

2008-06-26, 10:22 PM

I'm thinking the memory charm stops anyone leaving the valley from remembering anything other than the Oracle's answers. Their minds may fill in false details as a result. The trogolodytes/lizardman would still remember when they are supposed to return to ressurect him because he is answering a question for them. They weren't surprised he is a kobold though and I'm guessing it's because they have already met him outside of the valley so they know who he really is or have been told who he is. The Oracle would have to have met their boss at some point to arrange his ressurections. Since the meeting was outside of the valley the memory charm does nothing.

Interestingly, if the Oracle was a high level cleric he could arrange to be raised from the dead by himself. All he'd need to do is cast a contingency spell along with a raise dead spell. Set the trigger to "X minutes after I die" to allow for the killer to leave.

Red XIV

2008-06-26, 10:26 PM

Interestingly, if the Oracle was a high level cleric he could arrange to be raised from the dead by himself. All he'd need to do is cast a contingency spell along with a raise dead spell. Set the trigger to "X minutes after I die" to allow for the killer to leave.
Presumably that would be too much work, when he can easily just have other people do it for him.

brilliantlight

2008-06-26, 10:57 PM

True.

Fairly likely, though a chaotic can also be a stickler for rules, so long as they're personal in nature.

No, that was certainly a proportional response. Murder is murder, even when reversing it is possible. The Oracle simply made sure to close a loophole that otherwise would have let Belkar get away with it -- the same loophole that let him got away with murdering a helpful gnome merchant on the road. The mark was placed on Belkar for good and just reasons. There's no reason the punishment should be lessened just because the victim took precautions against the crime and kept his attacker from evading his due justice on a technicality.

I agree that he's most likely lawful evil for most of the reasons you just gave, but his handling of Belkar was entirely appropriate -- even the bits that went out of their way to rub things in.

I strongly agree! :belkar: is an evil little dude who deserves every thing he has gotten. His letting :belkar: get screwed is not evil as he both deserves the sickness and he is prevented from killing by the MOJ.

Dr. Cthulwho

2008-06-26, 11:00 PM

He engineered revenge out of proportion to the act done against him (ow that hurt, thanks, guys. didn't even get time to go rigid). Evil.

I really don't see that at all.

Revenge out of proportion to the act done against him? He was dead. Belkar killed him. In cold blood. For no reason other then that is what Belkar does (and he is the best at what he does:smallamused:). Belkar intended to, (and believed he had), succesfully murder the Oracle.

Hell, if the MoJ hadn't kicked in Belkar was planning to desecrate his corpse.

And since it got into legal defintions would a lawyer be able to prove the Oracle was evil purely on his revenge?

Lawyer: "This kobold is clearly evil. Being fully aware that the true victim in this case, Belkar, was going to freely and willingly kill him the Oracle took steps to ensure that the moment Belkar carried out the deed he would be struck down by a debilitating but non-lethal form of punishment, made possible by an order of Paladins.

And yes, he did this even though he knew he would be raised as soon as the weakened Halfling had left, still quite certain he had sucessfuly murdered the Kobold prophet, though with his joy of the kill soured somewhat by waves of vomit. So it is clear the Oracle's response was an act of evil far from proportional to the actual crime."

brilliantlight

2008-06-26, 11:11 PM

I really don't see that at all.

Revenge out of proportion to the act done against him? He was dead. Belkar killed him. In cold blood. For no reason other then that is what Belkar does (and he is the best at what he does:smallamused:). Belkar intended to, (and believed he had), succesfully murder the Oracle.

Hell, if the MoJ hadn't kicked in Belkar was planning to desecrate his corpse.

And since it got into legal defintions would a lawyer be able to prove the Oracle was evil purely on his revenge?

Lawyer: "This kobold is clearly evil. Being fully aware that the true victim in this case, Belkar, was going to freely and willingly kill him the Oracle took steps to ensure that the moment Belkar carried out the deed he would be struck down by a debilitating but non-lethal form of punishment, made possible by an order of Paladins.

And yes, he did this even though he knew he would be raised as soon as the weakened Halfling had left, still quite certain he had sucessfuly murdered the Kobold prophet, though with his joy of the kill soured somewhat by waves of vomit. So it is clear the Oracle's response was an act of evil far from proportional to the actual crime."

Exactly,whether the Oracle is evil or not his revenge on Belkar was just.

Fish

2008-06-26, 11:21 PM

So it is not clear that this legally qualifies as murder.
If it doesn't qualify as murder, then there's a tremendous problem with the D&D world's lawbooks: that only the poor can be victims of murder, because they cannot afford the 5,000 gp diamond and cleric services.

Furthermore, you'd have to deal with Resurrection: what if the victim died, the crime were prosecuted, the murderer executed, and then you resurrect the victim? Now what?

Fortunately, there's an easy answer. If Belkar gets to keep the XP from killing the Oracle, then it was murder. All they have to do is look at Belkar's character sheet.

In any case we're not talking about the legal definition, because that was not how the Mark of Justice was activated: Belkar dealt lethal damage within the bounds of a city, town, or village. The Mark isn't concerned with the legal niceties whether Belkar is convicted of any crime.

Child Conscript

2008-06-26, 11:21 PM

Ha!! Love Beating the system :smallamused:

Webwalker

2008-06-26, 11:41 PM

Am I the only one having a bit of trouble with the punctuation between the Panels 9 and 10? Every time I read it, with Panel 10 starting "-who may have" after Panel 9 ends with "mama always said." I get the feeling that there's something missing between those two panels, and it's bugging me.

Other than that, I loved the comic. It's another slap to Belkar, who got punished and didn't even get a permanent kill for it, which is something I love greatly. *chuckles*

David Argall

2008-06-26, 11:43 PM

But it doesn't mean that Belkar didn't murder the Oracle just because it was magically undone.
It means that local definitions of murder may differ and under some of them, Belkar did not murder.
A reasonable definition of "murder" under 3.5 rules can be "deliberately and without right cause the permanent death of...". Under such a definition, the casting of Raise Dead means it is not murder.
More conventional definitions might be used. Raise Dead may be cheap by high level adventurer standards, but it's off the table for 95%+ of the population. So a definition of not breathing for 15 minutes or more may suit most purposes.

dps

2008-06-26, 11:50 PM

How can it be?

Is the oracle still dead?

No.

So how can there be a murder?

The guard that Belkar killed in his escape from the Azure City jail was raised, and they still intended to try Belkar for murder. The MoJ was just a devise to keep him under control until his trial.

silvadel

2008-06-27, 12:36 AM

Generally oracles have trouble piercing the veil of the "end of the world."

Would kind of make it very boring also -- client after client asking questions and the answer being "Doesnt matter -- the world ended before that"

David Argall

2008-06-27, 01:13 AM

Am I the only one having a bit of trouble with the punctuation between the Panels 9 and 10? Every time I read it, with Panel 10 starting "-who may have" after Panel 9 ends with "mama always said." I get the feeling that there's something missing between those two panels, and it's bugging me.

Nothing missing, just language that arguably could have been clearer.

If we substitute "as said by mama" for "Mama always said", we get the statement "...as said by mama who may have been..." and we see there is no gap.

Eric

2008-06-27, 02:46 AM

I think the point he was trying to make was that the real reason most people find murder so heinous is that it is irreversible. Having him pop up a few minutes later really lessens the impact. It's still murder, but murder doesn't mean as much when death isn't permanent.

Exactly right.

Murder is murder HERE.

In OOTSiverse? No, I don't think so.

In D&D there was a gazeteer about creating "PC" classes from humanoid monsters. The Trolls (who regenerate) habitually rip the arms of each other (and anyone they come among, even if they LIKE them) because it doesn't really matter: the arm grows back (except if they aren't troll).

In "Thief of Time", the yeti can "save game" and if they die, they reload from that save point. Even the Yeti itself doesn't mind demonstrating that by being killed by the sweeper.

Eric

2008-06-27, 02:49 AM

Most people find rape heinous. Most people find torture heinous. Even if there's no permanent physical damage. What's the definition of heinousness?

Uh, Rape != Murder.

IMO, rape is heinous but not as bad as murder. People have gotten over rape. We only have two records of people getting over death.

As to "well, they get to go to a lovely place" religious people think that here and now and we don't use that.

However, you can't pop down the local Baptist church and ressurrect Auntie.

Eric

2008-06-27, 02:52 AM

The guard that Belkar killed in his escape from the Azure City jail was raised, and they still intended to try Belkar for murder. The MoJ was just a devise to keep him under control until his trial.

However, the guard didn't leave a weapon convenienly close to hand for Belkar to take off him and kill the guard, ensuring that he would be done for murder.

The Oracle KNEW what was going to happen and let it. OK, it was prophesied. What was NOT prophesied was him getting a village built up JUST so that Belkar can be trapped into setting off the MoJ AND NOT TELLING HIM ABOUT IT.

If the Oracle had told them and Belkar had done it anyway, then Belkar was at fault. By keeping it quiet, that's entrapment. And we don't like people who do that in this world.

PS: Remirach, Belkar wanted it to be murder, but he didn't want it to be in a place where the MoJ would be set off. So neither taken off.

Look, it isn't about what Belkar wanted, it's about what the Oracle wanted. It could fit the facts by saying that the Oracle just wanted Belkar's MoJ to go off (he'd know the future contained Belkar having the MoJ and Belkar doesn't get on with Kobolds, so the Oracle makes up a self-fulfilling future where Belkar gets walloped. Fits.). The Oracle is not blameless here. If the Oracle had, like it may well be for the Druid thing as far as we know, just took the stabbing as an occupational risk, Belkar would be the only guilty party. However, the Oracle engineered a situation to cast revenge. If I torture you near to death because you killed my sister, you get done for murder and I get done for torture. Revenge is not allowed.

Same here.

Ninja

2008-06-27, 04:20 AM

what's the big deal people. it's a friggin comic. it aint real life. it's not like he poped out of the screen and killed someone. i realy can't understand you. arguing over a comic....

Dunesen

2008-06-27, 05:08 AM

Re: the entire "Was the Oracle really murdered" question, I think the circumstances not only of this particular situation, but the general rules of death in the OotS universe (or would that be D&D universe?) requires us to approach any legal queries in a sort of "cleared" mindset. IE, we can't just apply our own standards of right, wrong, or justice to that world because what is capable in that world goes beyond what is capable in our world.

Someone already brought up the fact that death is not a completely permanent thing in our universe, and that there have been examples of people being legally declared dead due to a halting of bodily functions, although this condition ends up being temporary.

However, in the OotS world death is apparently much less often a permanent thing than a temporary condition. Eugene died how many times (7? 8?) before he was ultimately deceased?

Given the possibility of raising the dead (and the frequency with which it seems to happen), it is simple logic to believe that the legal standards of their universe will have entire volumes of precendents and judicial decisions unlike what we have.

In short, the legal definition of murder in that universe will not follow the same lines as ours.

So once we have that laid out, we're still left with the question of what exactly DOES constitute murder? And in this case, with the Oracle's pre-death preparedness for resurrection, does the temporary state of death qualify for after-the-fact events such as a trial for Belkar?

Considering that the Mark of Justice is still active, a case could be made that the Oracle was murdered (regardless of future events such as his resurrection), and that Belkar could be arrested/tried for it.

But at the same time there are a couple points to the MoJ that do not lend it as a convincing argument. First, the Mark was activated while the Oracle was still dead. The murder, at that precise moment, still stood. But the murder was not permanent, and so we return to the question of whether the OotS universe considers murder based on the permanence of death or simply on the act as it stands by itself.

The fact that the MoJ is still active should not necessarily sway judgement for murder either way, because the Mark is a spell that was activated and can only be undone by "squiddleydoodlefluffer." It is not a computer program that can respond to subsequent events such as the Oracle's resurrection.

Most likely this is a legal issue that has different takes in different kingdoms and lands, and the question of where Belkar would be tried could answer the question of "murder"(?) by itself.

Pandabear

2008-06-27, 06:21 AM

The fact that the MoJ is still active should not necessarily sway judgement for murder either way, because the Mark is a spell that was activated and can only be undone by "squiddleydoodlefluffer." It is not a computer program that can respond to subsequent events such as the Oracle's resurrection.

It's an activation word. It doesn't to my knowledge de-activate the curse.
Unless I missed something somewhere?

King of Nowhere

2008-06-27, 06:41 AM

If the Oracle had told them and Belkar had done it anyway, then Belkar was at fault. By keeping it quiet, that's entrapment.

So, that would be like if someone wanted to kill you, and you know there is a cop there. So he kills you because he don't know that he will be arrested, and, guess what? It's YOUR fault for not telling him of the cop??? Because if you told him, he wouldn't have killed you, so it's your fault? Heck, you knew he would have been arrested, so you should be punished for your crime, while he, poor murdered, being arrested for a murder in cold blood he wouldn't have committed if he knew he couldn't get away with it...
EVEN if it was an elaborate trap to activate the mark, Belkar still committed a murder in cold blood and deserves punishment. Considering he's Belkar, he deserves punishment anyway.

By the way, making multiple posts like you did is against the rules of the forum. You should use a single post.

Given the possibility of raising the dead (and the frequency with which it seems to happen), it is simple logic to believe that the legal standards of their universe will have entire volumes of precendents and judicial decisions unlike what we have.
As other people pointed out, if something is stolen and then returned to possession, the theft stands. It's not that because it was undone then it's like it didn't happen.
Probably, the fact that someone get raised can constitute an extenuating circumstance, but the murder stands. Just like in the real world if someone steal something and that thing is retrieved and returned to its legitimate owner it count as extenuating circumstance, but the crime stands.

DigoDragon

2008-06-27, 07:03 AM

Typically, that issue is handled by the fact that prophecies often don't mean what you think they mean.

Yup! Which we've seen a little of that with the oracle's attempt at explaining how Belkar "caused the demise of" all the people in the prediction. That was fun.

Ninja

2008-06-27, 07:07 AM

It's an activation word. It doesn't to my knowledge de-activate the curse.
Unless I missed something somewhere?

i think you are right.. i was about to say that muself.... "squidly-doodlefluffer" is an activation word, not a de-activation one... there is no way for him to de-activate it by himself now.... he needs a cleric... or Hinjo mihgt be able to do it, but he's acros the ocean so he needs a cleric...

oh yeah and i was just rereading the comic. fun fact : roy's right shoulder in the last three panels is see-through....

Dunesen

2008-06-27, 07:20 AM

It's an activation word. It doesn't to my knowledge de-activate the curse.
Unless I missed something somewhere?

Actually I put something there that wasn't. I've always assumed the word could both activate and deactivate the MoJ, like an on-off switch. I'm not familiar at all with the rules of any of the magic spells in D&D.

As other people pointed out, if something is stolen and then returned to possession, the theft stands. It's not that because it was undone then it's like it didn't happen.
Probably, the fact that someone get raised can constitute an extenuating circumstance, but the murder stands. Just like in the real world if someone steal something and that thing is retrieved and returned to its legitimate owner it count as extenuating circumstance, but the crime stands.

My point isn't that the murder is undone and no crime has been commited, it's that applying legal and ethical standards of our world to theirs is a fallacy, because their civilizations must surely have a far different judicial system regarding murder, manslaughter, and other types of premature death. The extenuating circumstances could cancel out a land's attempt at conviction due to precedent and laws established long before Belkar was even born.

Pandabear

2008-06-27, 07:27 AM

i think you are right.. i was about to say that muself.... "squidly-doodlefluffer" is an activation word, not a de-activation one... there is no way for him to de-activate it by himself now.... he needs a cleric... or Hinjo mihgt be able to do it, but he's acros the ocean so he needs a cleric...

oh yeah and i was just rereading the comic. fun fact : roy's right shoulder in the last three panels is see-through....

Thought as much :) And the see-through part was used in earlier comics too if I recall correctly.

Actually I put something there that wasn't. I've always assumed the word could both activate and deactivate the MoJ, like an on-off switch. I'm not familiar at all with the rules of any of the magic spells in D&D.

If you're not used to playing or interacting with spellcasters or playing D&D at all I can understand the confusion. Spells either wear off after a certain interval, or they require to be dispelled. In general that is, there are several exceptions.

Coke_Can64

2008-06-27, 07:30 AM

:smallsigh: *Points above* ...And this is why AD&D doesn't have a class called Laywer :smalltongue:

And I believe getting cursed needs a "Remove curse" Cleric spell or something... I'm an absolute newb at D&D mechanics but I don't recall curses turning on and off just by getting cursed again :smallwink:

... In fact, I thought it would get worse when Roy said "squidlydoodlefluffer" but then again, what's worse than magically emptying your stomach every 30 seconds? :smallamused:

[EDIT] :smallconfused: Ninja'd by a Panda? Yipe. I guess Pandabear has it right.

Dunesen

2008-06-27, 07:33 AM

If you're not used to playing or interacting with spellcasters or playing D&D at all I can understand the confusion. Spells either wear off after a certain interval, or they require to be dispelled. In general that is, there are several exceptions.

So here's a question (probably been asked): if Roy activated the Mark because he got pissed off at Belkar, would he have a way of de-activating it, or would he have abandoned Belkar the way Haley would have done? Because I've gotten the impression that, as Roy argued, his affiliation with Belkar does prevent him from committing a lot of evil deeds, if not actually provide a good influence on him.

So I can't really see Roy leaving Belkar the way Haley was going to, and I think it's one reason why Haley still has to grow as a leader.

And it's why I always assumed that the activation word was also a de-activation word, or that Roy had some personal way of turning it off, rather than relying on Durkon or V to dispel it.

Eric

2008-06-27, 07:49 AM

A useful analogy to the specific situation would be the act of theft; just because stolen property can be returned to the owner does not mean that theft did not occur.

Aye. And if I were to steal from you, feel remorse and give it back, it would be likely I get away with it. Courts don't bother wasting time jailing someone (because this is supposed to be reform: you get out early if you've learned your lesson: well, what if you learned your lesson before going in?).

Pandabear

2008-06-27, 07:54 AM

@Dunesen:

I don't think he would have a way to reverse it, although it would help keeping Belkar on a short leash.. Activate it again if he once again steps out of line, but alas..

@Coke_Can64:

Who happens to be playing a Goblin Ninja Sorcerer with a halberd by the way.
Also, you have been ninja'd by Ninja :smalltongue:

Eric

2008-06-27, 07:55 AM

I really don't see that at all.... Belkar killed him. In cold blood. For no reason other then that is what Belkar does (and he is the best at what he does:smallamused:).

Ah, see, this is where I disagree (with reason):

Belkar most certainly DIDN'T do it in cold blood.

Heck Roy and Haley were angry with him, even Celia was. He was egging a fight on. Belkar did wrong to kill him. Done deal. However, it was a LOT less heinous a crime than the one he committed against the Gnome (which WAS in cold blood).

And engineering pre-meditated revenge and NOT trying to avoid the incident is wrong. Think (since the Count of Monte Cristo didn't seem to hit any neurons) the movie "The Prestige".

The guy engineers a situation (for revenge) that gets his one-time partner hung for murder.

Now, the revenge could have been avoided by the silly twonk saying (sorry for the spoilers) "Yeah, I've an identical twin, I'll ask him if he used the new knot that killed your wife". So BOTH were bad.

One for engineering his death to get another done for the murder (a bit like "Ten Little Niggeer Boys"), the other for not doing ANYTHING to avoid it ('cos it was a secret, I can't tell him the secret!).

Eric

2008-06-27, 08:02 AM

So, that would be like if someone wanted to kill you, and you know there is a cop there. So he kills you because he don't know that he will be arrested, and, guess what? It's YOUR fault for not telling him of the cop???

No, that analogy would have to be:

You make ME angry enough to attack you. You've done so deliberately. You've also rigged recorders and video equipment. And the hiding of police.

The reason?

Because you want me in jail.

You are entraping me.

Now I can avoid the trap by (depsite being angry enough) just walking away.

However, you still tried to get me arrested. Deliberately. And even if I *DO* smack you upside the head and get arrested for assault, you STILL engineered the whole thing. Proving it is difficult, but that's what all the "incitement" laws are about. It's illegal to engineer *starting* a fight, even if you don't do any of the fighting.

I've had something like this happen in front of me:

Pub. Drinking. Landlord 6'6". Words said between landlord and my friends. Landlord then locks the door and as he's being argued with keeps saying "don't touch me". Why? He wanted my (5'8" thin build) friend to push him (I mean, who says "don't touch me" if they don't mean to start a fight??) or start the fight so that he (6'6" and heavy build) can then beat the crud out of him. Heck, the reason why he locked the door was because I was about to be able to talk my friend out of arguing and walk him out of there. Which would have meant no chance to egg a fight to start.

Eran of Arcadia

2008-06-27, 08:26 AM

I don't think that annoying someone is considered acceptable grounds for homicide in most jurisdictions.

I really don't think it is in this case.

Warren Dew

2008-06-27, 09:12 AM

So, that would be like if someone wanted to kill you, and you know there is a cop there. So he kills you because he don't know that he will be arrested ...

Plus in this case he's already on parole. Belkar should have been more careful about killing things; he can't really blame anyone else for what was his own error.

I don't think it matters whether it was "murder". Even if it's the OOTS world equivalent of assault, it was still clearly prohibited by the terms of the mark.

Arkenputtyknife

2008-06-27, 09:51 AM

what's the big deal people. it's a friggin comic. it aint real life. it's not like he poped out of the screen and killed someone. i realy can't understand you. arguing over a comic....
Because it's interesting.
Because it's fun.
Because it makes us think.
Because the intellectual, philosophical, moral and legal-theoretical issues it raises are complex and good exercise for the brain.

Personally, I'm finding this ongoing debate, and the (sometimes wildly differing) arguments and opinions being presented, as interesting as the comic itself. So a more pertinent question would be, why shouldn't people get heavily involved in questions like this? Why shouldn't we think deeply about it and discuss it?

What exactly is wrong with getting sufficiently excited over a well-written comic to want to argue over it? Or is it merely another form of snobbery — "it's just a comic"?

chiasaur11

2008-06-27, 11:58 AM

No, that analogy would have to be:

You make ME angry enough to attack you. You've done so deliberately. You've also rigged recorders and video equipment. And the hiding of police.

The reason?

Because you want me in jail.

You are entraping me.

Now I can avoid the trap by (depsite being angry enough) just walking away.

However, you still tried to get me arrested. Deliberately. And even if I *DO* smack you upside the head and get arrested for assault, you STILL engineered the whole thing. Proving it is difficult, but that's what all the "incitement" laws are about. It's illegal to engineer *starting* a fight, even if you don't do any of the fighting.

I've had something like this happen in front of me:

Pub. Drinking. Landlord 6'6". Words said between landlord and my friends. Landlord then locks the door and as he's being argued with keeps saying "don't touch me". Why? He wanted my (5'8" thin build) friend to push him (I mean, who says "don't touch me" if they don't mean to start a fight??) or start the fight so that he (6'6" and heavy build) can then beat the crud out of him. Heck, the reason why he locked the door was because I was about to be able to talk my friend out of arguing and walk him out of there. Which would have meant no chance to egg a fight to start.

Hey, the Oracle wasn't trying to get Belkar to kill him, Belkar both would have done it no matter what the Oracle said, given that he's Belkar, and chose to go there. He coulda stayed with the cart instead.

Oracle was totally justified.

Eric

2008-06-27, 12:32 PM

I don't think that annoying someone is considered acceptable grounds for homicide in most jurisdictions.

I really don't think it is in this case.

Huh? Who said it was acceptable.

I certainly didn't.

It's not as bad as the Gnome incident is the nearest I came and that's a looong way from "good" or even "justified".

Read what I'm writing, not what you think I'm writing.

Ta.

Eric

2008-06-27, 12:35 PM

Hey, the Oracle wasn't trying to get Belkar to kill him, Belkar both would have done it no matter what the Oracle said, given that he's Belkar, and chose to go there. He coulda stayed with the cart instead.

Oracle was totally justified.

Uh, who wound EVERYONE up (with the knowledge that one of them is a freaking nutter with a going thing for kobold body parts as offcuts)?

The Oracle could have said "Here's your money back".
If Belkar had killed anyway, he would be the only guilty party. But, no, he had to waffle lie and try and cheat his way out. Think about westerns when one person is cheating at cards. Guns drawn. People killed. Not murder.

Not in them days anyway.

Selene

2008-06-27, 12:53 PM

@Eric: I'm not familiar with The Prestige or the other thing, but I totally thought Edmund's revenge was justified. Check out what those guys did to him! I'm true neutral, though, so YMMV.

Also, if you knew someone was about to kill you, how motivated would you be to give him money? I would've hit him. Going to kill me anyway? Here's a punch in the face for the road. And like hell am I giving you any money, you little hairy freak.

dps

2008-06-27, 01:16 PM

Aye. And if I were to steal from you, feel remorse and give it back, it would be likely I get away with it. Courts don't bother wasting time jailing someone (because this is supposed to be reform: you get out early if you've learned your lesson: well, what if you learned your lesson before going in?).

First of all, depending on how much time had passed between the theft and the return (and other factors, such as the value of the stolen items), you still might gety some jail time. Second, the only remorse Belkar might feel about the incident is that it activated the MoJ--he certainly doesn't regret the act itself--and the courts in our world generally find remorse expressed after getting caught much less of a mitigating factor than remorse shown before getting caught (and I think activating the Mark counts as "getting caught"). And third, for your analogy to hold, Belkar would have had to raised (or pay for the raising of) the Oracle.