Druid Discussion

[Leon]

I wish to carry this on without disrupting the thread it started in.




Stop misinterpretting everything. It just makes you seem foolish, especially since it's apparent that you merely try to be a smartass.

Hmm, Humor isn't the best medicine for everyone


It lacks the 1-2-3 punch of a Druid so therefore it isn't the machine of victory known as a Druid. But whatever, this is a triviality.
It may lack the 123 punch, but that is not the Core of what a Druid is, only what it has its energies turned to

By the most basic look - A druid is a Nature Worshiper with a Divine connection that grants him a Boon



Yes, but that's the best Druid. The rest are just pale imitations. If you wanna play a flavourful Druid, feel free and if you want to intentionally weaken yourself as not to overshadow the party, those are fine choices. It just means you aren't mechanical Druid, you're an Avenger or a Shapeshifter. Yes, the core class is still called Druid, but you're Druid in the name only.


The BEST Druid is the one that suits the Player who is playing the PC - Not if it can do XYZ, the "pale imitations" so to speak are options that let you to expand upon the Core idea of the class and breath fresh air into it

A Variant Druid is still a Mechanical Druid, just using different Mechanics

But i guess that you cant please (or suggest a differing opinion) to all of the people all of the time

[Roog]

By the most basic look - A druid is a Nature Worshiper with a Divine connection that grants him a Boon

A "druid" (role) or a "Druid" (class)?

As to whether a (multi/presiged classed) character is primarily a D&D 3E Druid; then having at least two of those three aspects to a decent proportion of the character level, would seem to be a reasonable rough characterisation.

[Burley]

Why would you want this to continue? This is an arguement between you and one other person, as far as I can tell. Not wanting to bog down a thread is now bogging down the sub-forum.
Now that I've bogged this thread a bit:

Alternate class features don't do enough to a class to warrant calling it a different class. Mechanically speaking, most ACFs are the game designers looking at a class, seeing what is broken, and fixing it. This is especially true in the case of the Druid, and a Shapeshifting-Avenger Druid is perfectly playable and doesn't outshine the other party members, in the way that a core Druid would.

[Eldariel]

You're not only occasionally dipping to the flavour-side while I'm talking about strictly mechanics, you're also talking mechanically about a different Druid. Really, I don't see a point for this conversation. Nothing is going to be achieved and we're wasting time. If I'm making a character flavourfully Druid, I'm gonna make the character I want and flavour it to be a Druid. If I need to be the lone party tank, healer, battlefield controller and skill monkey wtih 25 point buy, I'll play the class called a Druid. If I don't need to do everything in the damn party and want to play a nature-flavoured semi-melee caster, I'll play a Shapeshifter/Avenger.

Now unless you actually give me something to discuss about, let's let this rest.

[Leon]

Umm, No.

This is my discussion thread, you may choose to not continue but i've now thrown it open to all and sundry that wish to talk about Druids and the options that are there.

One may say that the Druid is the one stop shop for everything you need, but what if someone else has done that before and made the local gaming comunity whom don't play like that jaded against all possible future Druids regardless of if they are the "Im a bear all day and Shoot lazer beams out my ***" type.

You have to show them that is just one over the top take on what is other a very varible class - even before all the options eventuated, becuase its not the Ultimeate world where you can have what you want exactly - the DM of your game is the Law, dont like it well dont play with them.

Having never particulay liked the Wildshape mechanic regardless of what edition it was in, i full embraced the plethora of options that have opened up over time.

The Binding factor on what a Druid is is that they can cast spells* from the Druid list and speak druidic, no matter if they shapeshif, have a companion, wildshape, rage or any of the many options that can be done.

(*yes im aware that Archivists can also cast Druid spells once they find some - i play one of those)

Now you can call your barbarain/cleric/ranger/flying green octangon a "druid", in the same way that your Fighter/rogue/bard/ can be called a "swashbuckler"

[Epinephrine]

Well, I think all the variant druids are druids. You don't need to be a broken wildshape machine to be one; in fact, wildshape doesn't exist in our campaign. Every druid is a variant of some sort (primarily shapeshift). Doesn't seem to hurt the flavour at all, and is a better mechanism.

[Dan_Hemmens]

This is pretty much why I don't like Classes with a specific social position behind them (I'm not a big fan of the Cleric either).

I'm too lazy to actually dig up the link, but it all comes back to that old OotS strip with "so did you take the CW Samurai class or the Master Samurai prestige Class"?

[Paul H]

Hi

Isn't this thread getting a tad too heavy? Personally I role-play for fun, without making personal comments.
(Unless it's in character - even then I never say "You and whose army" to a Druid)!

Cheers
Paul H

[Nebo_]

Leon, in the original context, it seemed to me that he was speaking from a mechanical standpoint. And in that context, he was completely right. Why would you ever give up one of the most powerful class features in the game for something that's mediocre at best and that you can duplicate with an item?

[Matthew]

Looks to me like 'best' was conflated with 'most powerful', and 'Druid' with 'Druidzilla'.

On the other hand, I don't think I have ever found any version of the Druid presented in Dungeons & Dragons palatable.

[Leon]

Leon, in the original context, it seemed to me that he was speaking from a mechanical standpoint. And in that context, he was completely right. Why would you ever give up one of the most powerful class features in the game for something that's mediocre at best and that you can duplicate with an item?

The Point that ive been pushing that it is a Druid regardless of if it has the "most powerful" class features or not, and why would i give them up, cos i dislike them and how they work, drag many people down the same road of feat choices and action

For other people, they have their own motivations to choose why or why not - thats why in that and many other "can someone help me with this idea threads" i push for them to break the mold that cast upon the humble class and choose a path

From a Pure mechanical point, it has differences but is still the same class that kicks*** and takes names.



On the other hand, I don't think I have ever found any version of the Druid presented in Dungeons & Dragons palatable.

How do you find Druids of other system - im not very knowledgeable on many much out side of a small sphere of games.
an example being WHFRP, it doesnt have a "Druid" career but a Jade Wizard or a Taal/Rhya priest is the same area of specization in most cases

[Nebo_]

The Point that ive been pushing that it is a Druid regardless of if it has the "most powerful" class features or not, and why would i give them up, cos i dislike them and how they work, drag many people down the same road of feat choices and action

For other people, they have their own motivations to choose why or why not - thats why in that and many other "can someone help me with this idea threads" i push for them to break the mold that cast upon the humble class and choose a path

From a Pure mechanical point, it has differences but is still the same class that kicks*** and takes names.


In the original thread, the OP was looking for optimisation advice. It's all well and good for you to want people to voluntarily nerf their characters, but when someone specifically wants to have a more powerful character, your advice was no good.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I agree with Nebo.

[Leon]

In the original thread, the OP was looking for optimisation advice. It's all well and good for you to want people to voluntarily nerf their characters, but when someone specifically wants to have a more powerful character, your advice was no good.

Really? the Opening post mentioned nothing about optimizing- it was a Person exploring the idea of a Druid/Monk PC and wanted to know what the PrC that he was thinking of in relation to that was.

After that i recall his other post being that he had found it and realised that it wasn't so much a druid PrC. that was the last that he post in regard for any help, there were a few other suggestions from people and then i added mine and we know where it went from there.

I gave the rest of my advice on the matter in a PM so as to not drag his thread anymore offtopic than i already had


I don't offer advice (anymore) to what is going to a "Standard Druid" PC - of which there are a couple atm, typicaly picked out by the "at 6th i'll take NS and what is the best AC i can have ??" lines of thought

[Talic]

IMO, there are a couple major druid builds.

Druid 20, or perhaps a couple Arcane Hierophant levels or somesuch. Maximize casting, maximize power, and use natural spell while shifted, along with, ideally, wilding clasps, and really heavy wilding armor.

Druid 5/MoMF 7/Warshaper 5/something else 3 (druid and Nature's warrior are contenders.) Spells are an afterthought. Use them as minor buffs. You're a shapeshifting beast of war. You are the carnal embodiment of nature's fury, and you can turn into most things. Alternately, on this theme, Druid 7/MoMF 7/Psy Warrior 1/Warshaper 5 works well. Use practiced manifester to hit 5th level manifester, take Metamorphic transfer for supernatural abilities, and throw in a bit of psionic expansion, for good measure. You'll get almost every possible ability of your form. Practiced spellcaster will get you to CL 11 for druid, giving you decent duration on your level 1-4 spells. Natural spell is a good option also.

(For above Psywar build, I'd likely go Druid 5/Psywar 1 (picking up practiced manifester and Natural Spell at level 6, Practiced manifester at level 3). From there go MoMF 7 (picking up Metamorphic Transfer at level 9), then Warshaper 5, rounding it out with Druid 6 and 7 for your last two levels. This means that by the time you start getting good forms, you get supernatural abilities of those forms. Power breaks are at level 6, when you get expansion, at level 13, when you gain extraordinary qualities of forms, and at level 15, when you get increased reach.)

Variant classes are options for druid, albeit substandard, mostly. If using them, I like elemental companion (air), personally.

In Eberron, you have the Ashbound druids, which get some pretty strong summoning powers, if you augment summoning. It's an option for Beefing up your spontaneous summoning. Has potential when combined with the frostburn/sandstorm summon augments.


However, bear in mind, everyone has their standards by which best is judged. For some, it's "most mechanically powerful". The first option has that. For others, it's "most fun". Different strokes, and all that.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Yeah... Now that I have some time to write out a longer message, here's what I think-

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm This is a druid.
Someone who has levels in Druid and still benefits from them is a Druid.
Nothing else is a Druid, strictly by RAW. And this is a perfectly sensible way to go about it.

But on the other hand,
Miko in the OOTS comic is a Paladin, crunchwise. But she's also a Samurai, fluffwise. She can be one without actually BEING it if she only acts the part. But by RAW, she's a Paladin and nothing else. She exists in a wierd quantum superposition of both being and not being a samurai, changing simply on how you look at it.

This is a split between fluff and crunch, but there's merits to both arguments. Both are correct, albeit in different contexts. One follows the Letter of the Law, the other the Spirit of it.

Which side you fall in is entirely your choice, and entirely correct. Neither is inherently better than the other, and trying to force your view on someone who disagrees is wrong either way.

[Gorbash Kazdar]

Comrade Gorby: While we encourage new threads to be started to cover topics tangential to another thread to keep them from bogging the original down, in this case I don't see why this topic can't be in the original thread. So I'm locking it as extraneous.