Belkar's Death [Spoilers]

[Jack Zander]

The prophesy stated that Belkar will draw his last breath ever. You know what that means? He will be raised as an undead!

[Green-Shirt Q]

I doubt he will be raised as an undead, but it is still a possibility. I don't think that is what last breath means, though.

[SPoD]

The prophesy stated that Belkar will draw his last breath ever. You know what that means? He will be raised as an undead!

Why do people think the usage of the phrase "last breath" is some sort of clever phrasing that implies undead?

Here's a thought: If the oracle said that Belkar will have his head chopped off and his innards strewn about Cliffport—he could still come back as undead!!! The phrase "last breath" is no more or less likely to imply undead status than any other statement that could be made about Belkar's death at all.

[VForVaarsuvius]

Either that or Snarl'd. Or just not raised. (Can you think of anyone in the party who would raise him?:smalleek:)

[Grey Watcher]

Either that or Snarl'd. Or just not raised. (Can you think of anyone in the party who would raise him?:smalleek:)

Elan might. They do get along after all. But he'd probably go along with it when everyone else refused.

[Jack Zander]

Why do people think the usage of the phrase "last breath" is some sort of clever phrasing that implies undead?

Here's a thought: If the oracle said that Belkar will have his head chopped off and his innards strewn about Cliffport—he could still come back as undead!!! The phrase "last breath" is no more or less likely to imply undead status than any other statement that could be made about Belkar's death at all.

If this was real life then sure. However, in the context of a webcomic where the death of a main character is at stake, the most probable solution is to have the character not actually die (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_superman).

[Rad]

You have it wrong:
He's going to be made into a construct and thus will not need to breathe, or retirement funds, plus he won't be able to eat any more birthday cakes.

Oh, you meant seriously?
I think he'll be killed by the snarl at the end of the comic, like the barbarian in the Order of the Scribble has been. He'll probably surprise everybody with his self-sacrifice but will note that after all renouncing his Chaotic Evil afterlife is not as big a sacrifice as it would be for the others to renounce theirs. That would fit with Redcloak's statement that Hell is a punitive afterlife (he's a cleric, he should know) so Belkar gets to elude divine justice in the end.

[M i M c]

Here's my little theory:
I think Belkar might get killed by Roy...
Here's my speculation:
Xykon meets up with Haley and co., and offers to remove the MoJ from Belkar for a price. Before the price can be named, Belkar says yes and the curse gets removed. Unfortunatley, the price was he had to become an evil minion, so he's working for Xykon now.
Roy comes back, sees what Belkar has become and ultimatley has to kill the little halfing. This supports a "Traitor" in the OOTS theory, but I can see one big hole in mine:
Does Xykon know about the mark?

[Oracle_Hunter]

You have it wrong:
He's going to be made into a construct and thus will not need to breathe, or retirement funds, plus he won't be able to eat any more birthday cakes.

Oh, you meant seriously?
I think he'll be killed by the snarl at the end of the comic, like the barbarian in the Order of the Scribble has been. He'll probably surprise everybody with his self-sacrifice but will note that after all renouncing his Chaotic Evil afterlife is not as big a sacrifice as it would be for the others to renounce theirs. That would fit with Redcloak's statement that Hell is a punitive afterlife (he's a cleric, he should know) so Belkar gets to elude divine justice in the end.

That's a good one. I think it won't be any sort of sacrifice, but more of a pure cussedness. Of course, that'll mean we'll be getting to the Final Gate by the end of the in-comic year... and we've already passed several months up in Heaven.

EDIT: I'm actually rooting for an obscure non-death, like petrification and then lost at the bottom of the sea. But to be honest, Blaze of Glory seems like a mostly likely end.

[Person_Man]

Possibilities:

1) Belkar dies and doesn't get resurrected. He continues on in the afterlife, much as Roy has, essentially having solo adventures and commenting on what the other characters do (assuming he cares about what they're doing at that point). I don't know what Chaotic Evil heaven is like, but I'm guessing its fun.

2) Belkar dies towards the end of the comic. Rich has decided to stop writing OotS at some particular point, so now he is publishing his resolution at breakneck speed. Part of that resolution involves Belkar's death.

3) Belkar becomes undead, construct, elemental, or something else that doesn't breath.

Options 1 and 2 would suck royally, IMHO. Belkar is one of the best characters - why remove him from the action? Or worse, why stop OotS? Yes, 4E has been screwing with a lot of us. But don't give up the fight. Good writing can triumph over any adversity!

Option 3 has a lot of options. Hopefully, its the direction Rich will go.

[Kurald Galain]

A more likely theory is that...

...the entire world will cease to exist a year from now, thanks to a certain goblin cleric who keeps messing with those gates...
:mitd: What gates?


(and no, I'm not being serious)

[Shatteredtower]

Or worse, why stop OotS?Because many artists appreciate an opportunity to move on to other projects. It's often a good way to avoid stagnation -- whether of the work or the worker.

[slayerx]

Why do people think the usage of the phrase "last breath" is some sort of clever phrasing that implies undead?


Because people ask the question, "would the giant kill Belkar like he did Miko?"... "last breath ever" means that little bastard is NOT gonna get raised when he dies. So, either the story must end soon enough that Belkar dies towards the end like most main characters do, OR he must somehow cheat death in a way that allows him to exist in the comic without "breathing" (such as being undead)

[d'Bwobsling]

I thought it was obvious: Belkar will turn into an ooze


niether am I

[QuoVadisNation]

Why can't belkar do something generically heroic for once, do something, and then get turned into a stone for it for once? All of em' are possibilities, I guess. Asides from arguing constantly what the oracle means by "belkar," it's anyone's guess as to what'll happen.

[WrstDmEvr]

Here's my 2cp

Remember OOTS 261? Belkar makes a reference to birthday cake. My prediction; he will die killing a bunch of humans.

Probably crazy, but still worth checking.

EDIT: Wow, in the time it took my to type this, 4 people managed to post something.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Am I the only person on this forum to notice that the oracle also said, "Your pal is not long for this world"? I can't reconcile that with him becoming a thinking undead or construct.

[Wreckingrocc]

Elan might (raise him). They do get along after all. But he'd probably go along with it when everyone else refused.

....Belkar tried to kill Elan for experience towards the beginning.

[SPoD]

Because people ask the question, "would the giant kill Belkar like he did Miko?"... "last breath ever" means that little bastard is NOT gonna get raised when he dies. So, either the story must end soon enough that Belkar dies towards the end like most main characters do, OR he must somehow cheat death in a way that allows him to exist in the comic without "breathing" (such as being undead)

No, I understand that, I'm saying is this: The Oracle is very carefully avoiding using the words "die" or "death" in reference to Belkar. If Belkar were fated to become an undead, the Oracle wouldn't need to do that! He could just say, "Belkar will die before the end of the year." And then, even if Belkar pops back as a vampire 6 seconds later, the prophecy is still true and still an interesting addition to the story.

So therefore, it seems most likely that whatever will happen with Belkar will NOT include his actual death, simply because that's what is being hinted at.

My vote is that he gets recruited to become a demon or something at the end of the strip. He won't need to breathe or fund his IRA, he won't get anymore birthday cakes, and he won't be long for this world (because he will move on to the Abyss, which is another world).

[SteveMB]

IMHO. Belkar is one of the best characters - why remove him from the action? Or worse, why stop OotS?

Because Rich has a general plan of what the overall plotline, including the ending, will be. From the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq27):


Q:How long will OOTS last? How far in advance do you have OOTS planned?

A: Pretty damn far. I have ideas for story arcs that will last at least five years, though I don't have individual strips written more than a few days or weeks ahead. Keep in mind that although OOTS has a joke-a-day, it has plotlines that are set up far in advance of their resolution. OOTS does indeed have a finite lifespan, however, and I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be, so don't expect it to linger around forever.

[Hokum]

Possibilities:

1) Belkar dies and doesn't get resurrected. He continues on in the afterlife, much as Roy has, essentially having solo adventures and commenting on what the other characters do (assuming he cares about what they're doing at that point). I don't know what Chaotic Evil heaven is like, but I'm guessing its fun.

2) Belkar dies towards the end of the comic. Rich has decided to stop writing OotS at some particular point, so now he is publishing his resolution at breakneck speed. Part of that resolution involves Belkar's death.

3) Belkar becomes undead, construct, elemental, or something else that doesn't breath.

Options 1 and 2 would suck royally, IMHO. Belkar is one of the best characters - why remove him from the action? Or worse, why stop OotS? Yes, 4E has been screwing with a lot of us. But don't give up the fight. Good writing can triumph over any adversity!

Option 3 has a lot of options. Hopefully, its the direction Rich will go.

thats how it is, guys.

(well option one is rather improbable)

[Ninja]

Am I the only person on this forum to notice that the oracle also said, "Your pal is not long for this world"? I can't reconcile that with him becoming a thinking undead or construct.

which could mean he will become something in a diferent plane ( world ) ......
but i don;t think so.... i think he will just die and that's it.... nothing clever bout it... just :
-a gnome ninja-"This is for Solt Lorkyurg!"
:belkar: "Who?"
-a gnome ninja-"The gnome you killed in comic 539!"
:belkar:"Like i remember!"
-a gnome ninja- Throws his knife - Splortch!!! "Revenge has been served!"

[Ninja]

1) Belkar dies and doesn't get resurrected. He continues on in the afterlife, much as Roy has, essentially having solo adventures and commenting on what the other characters do (assuming he cares about what they're doing at that point). I don't know what Chaotic Evil heaven is like, but I'm guessing its fun.

Also i think that Evil aligned characters go to Hell.... not Heaven.. u know.. like:
"You shall burn in the fires of Hell forever, because of that gnome!!!'
:belkar:"What gnome?"

[Kurald Galain]

"You shall burn in the fires of Hell forever, because of that gnome!!!'
:belkar:"What gnome?"

More like

:belkar: Which gnome?

:mitd: You killed more than one gnome named Solt near Azure City?

:belkar: Five, actually.

[Szilard]

Am I the only person on this forum to notice that the oracle also said, "Your pal is not long for this world"? I can't reconcile that with him becoming a thinking undead or construct.

What if he was talking about a different pal in that sentance? A bit of a stretch though.

[Moral Wiz]

I just read it as confirming that Belkar won't get Rezed.

[Arkenputtyknife]

What if he was talking about a different pal in that sentance? A bit of a stretch though.
Clutching at straws, I think.

[Mauve Shirt]

What if he was talking about a different pal in that sentance? A bit of a stretch though.

Perhaps Durkon?

But no, we've now had two prophecies saying that Belkar is going to die, so I'd bet he's killed by the snarl. Roy's speech about party loyalty makes me think he won't kill him, but then again Belkar might piss him off too much.

[Draz74]

I just read it as confirming that Belkar won't get Rezzed.

Agreed.


Also i think that Evil aligned characters go to Hell.... not Heaven.

QFT.


Elan might. They do get along after all. But he'd probably go along with it when everyone else refused.

Elan didn't even want to spring him from jail. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0263.html) Belkar himself thought it was more likely that Durkon would be the one to want to raise him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html) I wonder, if he died in some reversible way, how much the party would want to give him another chance ...


Possibilities: [snip]
2) Belkar dies towards the end of the comic. Rich has decided to stop writing OotS at some particular point, so now he is publishing his resolution at breakneck speed. Part of that resolution involves Belkar's death.
[snip]
Options 1 and 2 would suck royally, IMHO. Belkar is one of the best characters - why remove him from the action? Or worse, why stop OotS? Yes, 4E has been screwing with a lot of us. But don't give up the fight. Good writing can triumph over any adversity!

Only, the purpose of OotS isn't to provide endless amusement and jokes about D&D. It's to tell a story. Giant has said a few times that the story has become more important to him than the jokes, and that the story has a definite end (within a decade of real time, easily). So I'm figuring Option 2 is the one.


I think he'll be killed by the snarl at the end of the comic, like the barbarian in the Order of the Scribble has been. He'll probably surprise everybody with his self-sacrifice but will note that after all renouncing his Chaotic Evil afterlife is not as big a sacrifice as it would be for the others to renounce theirs. That would fit with Redcloak's statement that Hell is a punitive afterlife (he's a cleric, he should know) so Belkar gets to elude divine justice in the end.

Clever. I like it.

[Winthur]

I think it will turn out that the Oracle prediction was true and Belkar will die...

...but not Belkar Bitterleaf. Just some other generic Belkar. :smallwink:

[isocum]

you know there is another way than undead or construct for belkar to die but stille exist
his soul might get trapped into an item. for example if his soul get trapped in roy's sword we can have something like lilarcor from bg2, an ax crazy th-sword.

[The Extinguisher]

Belkar has a much of a chance of giving up is Chaotic Evil lifestyle and sacrificing himself as Xykon does of repenting and fighting for law and good.

As in, none. Whatsoever.

[SupraGuy]

:belkar: = DOOMED.

I think that from a literary point of view, the CE member of the otherwise good party is only going to get in the way.

It's possible that he'll go 'in a blaze of glory' of course. That would be fitting. Once he's gone though, he's not coming back. Maybe he'll be referenced in a flashback, but I really think that he's going to be gone.

Snarl food? Yeah, that has potential on several levels to propel the story forward.

[Aquillion]

Because people ask the question, "would the giant kill Belkar like he did Miko?"... "last breath ever" means that little bastard is NOT gonna get raised when he dies. So, either the story must end soon enough that Belkar dies towards the end like most main characters do, OR he must somehow cheat death in a way that allows him to exist in the comic without "breathing" (such as being undead)It was explictly one-year in the comic universe, though (and the fact that this required clarification strongly implies that it's going to take longer than a year actual reality for the strip where he stops breathing forever to be posted, since comic-time seems to generally flow much much slower.)

The entire rest of the strip's run could easily happen within a game-world year, with Belkar dying at the end. That is "soon" in most reasonable senses, but it won't necessarily seem soon for us.

[Schulzy]

I'm gunning for this:

Belkar is killed by one of the good guys, and rezzed by Tsukiko. There is a short story arc about undead Belkar's hunt for the one who killed him, at the end of which he re-dies a spectacularly epic death.

[Fish]

It makes about as much sense for Belkar to draw his last breath ever, becoming an undead — not long for this world, perhaps becoming a spectre or a ghost of the Ethereal Plane — as it makes for him to draw his last breath ever because he's put on Roy's old Belt of Gender.

Of course, let's not forget that Durkon is also scheduled to return to the dwarven homelands posthumously. How many other of the OOTS does the Oracle foresee dying?

Not Elan: he gets a happy ending. Presumably this means he and Haley live.

[galdon]

Belkar is too awesome to be killed off, and sacrificing himself would be too out of character and pretty much ruin it. Belkar hates the undead, as they are no fun, and due to thier miniony ways he'd have no will to do half of his usual stuff.

The emphasis on the word 'ever' means that whatever happens to him will be permanent. He will never be the same.

The things that the oracle says outside of the oracular trance are not meant to be remembered and do not need to be worded carefully at all. so i think the only line that should be looked at for literal meaning is "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year."

Now while Wisdom and intelligence are his dump stats, I think we can all agree the little runt is a heck of a thinker, when he wants to be. Using his brain to beat an enemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) Finding a loophole to not being able to kill while in a city (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)

My guess is that whatever does happen to him, won't be the end of him, and he will find a way to use it to kill even more than before.

[Kato]

Okay... there are quite some things to think about... First there's a lot of speculation about the oracle's choice of words. It might be some trick in it, but I highly doubt it. He used a lot of phrases to make clear, B will die, though not exactly saying it. But we cling to straws here. I'm afraid B will die, in some way. I also don't want him to, but it's quite clear. The weakening by the mark makes this even more probable. Unless the oracle is either proven wrong somehow or Roy manages to change destiny because he knows about it. I'd hope for the second option. If he dies I don't think he will completely vanish. I don't think he will become an undead, but either be a spirit or something...
Though... I want exclude the chance of a heroic death... maybe something like facing a very tough opponent 'because he wants the exp'.

[Balok]

Not Elan: he gets a happy ending. Presumably this means he and Haley live.Not if he goes to a pleasant afterlife, like Roy's has generally been.

It may simply be that The Giant feels he has told all the Belkar stories there are to tell. In which case, they could add Celia or some other new person to the group. It certainly seems like Belkar's psychosis is increasingly in control of his actions lately; that could be the build up to his death.

Sometimes the worst enemies start out as good friends, which fits with the notion of someone betraying the Order.

I'd be disappointed if The Giant stopped making OOTS, but hopefully if he did that he'd create something new.

[Innis Cabal]

Belkar is too awesome to be killed off, and sacrificing himself would be too out of character and pretty much ruin it. Belkar hates the undead, as they are no fun, and due to thier miniony ways he'd have no will to do half of his usual stuff.

The emphasis on the word 'ever' means that whatever happens to him will be permanent. He will never be the same.

The things that the oracle says outside of the oracular trance are not meant to be remembered and do not need to be worded carefully at all. so i think the only line that should be looked at for literal meaning is "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year."

Now while Wisdom and intelligence are his dump stats, I think we can all agree the little runt is a heck of a thinker, when he wants to be. Using his brain to beat an enemy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) Finding a loophole to not being able to kill while in a city (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html)

My guess is that whatever does happen to him, won't be the end of him, and he will find a way to use it to kill even more than before.

To be fair, we don't know his int score, it could be high, we have never been given evidence his int score was a dump stat, or his wis for that matter, we just know its low. Also, to the credit of both links, they are hardly mind blowing displays of intelegence, are they clever? Ya, are they ingenious? not in the slightest.

The words "Last Breath Ever" are pretty clear, he will stop breathing forever, it never says he dies. Or even more unlikely, he changes his name. Thus Belkar stops being belkar, so by the end of the year, there will not be Belkar.

[Fish]

Not if he goes to a pleasant afterlife, like Roy's has generally been.
Maybe the point is this: the Snarl, the embodiment of chaos created by the tangled mishmash of D&D rules, will destroy the world. The heroes fail to destroy it ... and everybody dies.

But the world, of course, is D&D 3.5...

[Criti]

If this was real life then sure. However, in the context of a webcomic where the death of a main character is at stake, the most probable solution is to have the character not actually die (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_superman).

This largely depends on the actual intention, though. The Death of Superman is a story not about Superman's death - but rather the impact it would have on the world. It was meant to explore how people would react, and how other superheroes would react.

Somehow, I doubt killing Belkar would invoke nearly the emotional response that the fall of the Man of Steel did. Rather - this could be the beginning of the endgame. OotS does have an ending coming to it - http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq27 - it could well be that Belkar's death is just a part of it.

[Ninja]

To be fair, we don't know his int score, it could be high, we have never been given evidence his int score was a dump stat, or his wis for that matter, we just know its low.

His wisdom is probably lesser than 10.... to use the scroll of healing u require a wisdom of 14... V's magic adds 4.. so it is likely that his wisdom is 4. however he says that he has a wisdom penalty score.... so it is likely that it is even lesser than 10.... but anyway it is not higher than 10.. and that is low.... as for his intelligence i dunno bout that....

[[levi]]

I have two theories...

1) The Oracle was just messing with Roy. He pretended he was in an oracular trance, then sent him back to the afterlife thinking that he knew Belkar would be dead by the end of the year. Now that I think about it...

2) The Oracle knows that they are supposed to save the world and what-not, so all of his actions regarding the Order of the Stick are to help them acheive their goal. He sent Roy back to the afterlife with all of his memory on purpose. There may also be a mysterious reason why he told Roy that Belkar will draw his last breath before the end of the year.

OK, so now I have three theories...

3) Belkar will die, and not be raised from the dead. Yeah, really. Which probably means:
a) He'll puke himself to death with the mark of justice (which would mean that the oracle had a reason for setting him up with the village of lickmyorangeballshalfling)
b) He'll be somehow cured of his MoJ and will die some other way later (which would open the door for the death-by-Snarl theory)

My guess is he will die by the mark of justice, because then why would they make sure he activated it? And then forget immediately afterwards? Or maybe...it'll come down to them either getting Roy raised or Belkar cured, and they'll want Roy raised, with the hopes of getting Belkar raised later...man, this is confusing...

[AceOfFools]

His wisdom is probably lesser than 10.... to use the scroll of healing u require a wisdom of 14... V's magic adds 4.. so it is likely that his wisdom is 4. however he says that he has a wisdom penalty score.... so it is likely that it is even lesser than 10.... but anyway it is not higher than 10.. and that is low.... as for his intelligence i dunno bout that....

Actually you need a 13 (10+spell level on scriber's spell list, cure serious wounds is a 3nd level cleric spell). Just saying.

And Belkar will die for real. I'm guess not as close to the end as I would expect from most authors, but not too far before it either.

[Ronan]

Well it's not a theory but a request for the Giant

Rich, *Please* Don't Kill Belkar... He's the one that makes me laugh the most. And not only for his sadism/sarcasm :smallfrown:

Now I would talk about party balance, and stuff like that but ...
I Trust you :smalltongue:

[Hallavast]

Well it's not a theory but a request for the Giant

Rich, *Please* Don't Kill Belkar... He's the one that makes me laugh the most. And not only for his sadism/sarcasm :smallfrown:

Now I would talk about party balance, and stuff like that but ...
I Trust you :smalltongue:

And here is my request to the Giant:

Kill that little jerk in the worst way you can think of. :smallwink:

I trust you to make the right choice. :smallcool:

[Lord_Butters_I]

Maybe the point is this: the Snarl, the embodiment of chaos created by the tangled mishmash of D&D rules, will destroy the world. The heroes fail to destroy it ... and everybody dies.

But the world, of course, is D&D 3.5...

It doesn't really make sense but this really reminds me of Diablo 2's ending.

[Swordlol]

My ideas:

-Celcia will kill Belkar.
-Sabine (I forgot her name) will take Belkar to the demon realm for a night of fun and leave him there.

[zuzak]

;4504783']1) The Oracle was just messing with Roy. He pretended he was in an oracular trance, then sent him back to the afterlife thinking that he knew Belkar would be dead by the end of the year. Now that I think about it...

I thought of this too; even if the Oracle knows the future, that doesn't mean that he's telling the truth, especially considering that he doesn't like Roy.

Even though I really like Belkar, I'd be very disapointed if he came back undead. It just wouldn't be the same.

[Red XIV]

Or worse, why stop OotS?
Because it's a story with a defined endpoint that the Giant has already come up with. He has no intention for OOTS to go on forever without someday coming to a resolution.

[Copacetic]

What no one else has considered, what if Belkar isn't the only one to die? What if he takes his last breath with everyone else. Apocolapse, man. Never going to happen sure, but while everyone else is fretting about how Belkar will stop breathing the Oracle knows everyone is doomed a year from now.






[/mycrazythoughts]

[Jack Zander]

What if the only way to stop Belkar from throwing up like crazy from the MoJ is to wear a magic item that grants him sustenance without food, water, or air (like an ioun stone)?

[AutomatedTeller]

Or it's a meta-joke, hinted at by the oracle breaking the 4th wall, saying that the comic will end in 1 year (comic time) - ie, Belkar will DRAW his last breath because the comic won't be drawn anymore.

[Innis Cabal]

His wisdom is probably lesser than 10.... to use the scroll of healing u require a wisdom of 14... V's magic adds 4.. so it is likely that his wisdom is 4. however he says that he has a wisdom penalty score.... so it is likely that it is even lesser than 10.... but anyway it is not higher than 10.. and that is low.... as for his intelligence i dunno bout that....

thats what i was getting at, and i am pretty sure his wis is less then 10, as it looks like he takes some extreme penelties for spot and the like

[Tyrfang]

I think we're overthinking a bit.

It can't be an apocalypse, or the Snarl, or anything of that sort as the oracle booked a resurrection for himself at some point in the far future.

Rich has shown he won't hesitate to kill a main character- he's done exactly that with Miko and Roy.

Therefore, I think quite simply, Belkar will die.

As for how, we'll have to wait and see :smallwink:

[Yerocha]

I think I know the obvious answer for why The Oracle didn't specifically say "Belkar will die!" He wants to screw with Roy so he'll try to find a loophole: he really WILL die and the Oracle was very subtly being a jerk about the whole thing.

[Axl_Rose]

The prophesy stated that Belkar will draw his last breath ever. You know what that means? He will be raised as an undead!

I was just thinking that.


Or it's a meta-joke, hinted at by the oracle breaking the 4th wall, saying that the comic will end in 1 year (comic time) - ie, Belkar will DRAW his last breath because the comic won't be drawn anymore.

I'm hoping it doesn't come to that... Me wants more than one year's worth of strips!

[David Argall]

;4504783']
1) The Oracle was just messing with Roy. He pretended he was in an oracular trance, then sent him back to the afterlife thinking that he knew Belkar would be dead by the end of the year.
This is not how Oracles mess with people. They lie by telling the truth. He doesn't need that trance to tell the future. It just implants the answer so the listener doesn't forget it. So what he has said will happen. It just won't happen like Roy expects.


;4504783']3) Belkar will die, and not be raised from the dead.
Since it is obvious that Belkar will die, he probably won't.


;4504783']Yeah, really. Which probably means:
a) He'll puke himself to death with the mark of justice (which would mean that the oracle had a reason for setting him up with the village of lickmyorangeballshalfling)
All our evidence says the Mark is a non-lethal effect. He may well be too weak to defend himself, but the Mark is reducing his stats to 1, not to zero. All our descriptions say weak, not dead. We would not expect Roy to agree to a lethal punishment. And there are a lot more jokes possible about his being weak than his being dead.


;4504783']b) He'll be somehow cured of his MoJ and will die some other way later (which would open the door for the death-by-Snarl theory)

It is books early to be talking Snarl deaths. And despite what has been suggested, death by Snarl is no more fatal than any other death. They stand or fall based on the whim of the writer.

Now I'm beginning to like the idea that Belkar is going to be leaving the party, and the world, going to some plane where he doesn't need to breathe. We will see him in a couple of solo adventures there, which will help or hurt the party, maybe both.

[The Extinguisher]

What says that Snarl death is the same as regular death?

We have Word of God-and possibly in-comic, I'm not sure-explanation that Snarl death means no more soul. Which means dead. Forever.

[kpenguin]

I'm hoping it doesn't come to that... Me wants more than one year's worth of strips!

Well, maybe the comic, in-story, won't last a year. I mean, a lot could happen in less than a year in-story.

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah. Remember, the entire Azure City Battle took place over a single day.

[kpenguin]

Come to think of it... as long as we're tearing down the fourth wall brick by brick... Belkar doesn't actually breathe since he's a two-dimensional fictional stick-figure that only exists as an image on our computer screens.

Okay, no one wants that to be the right answer.:smalltongue:

[Hippoboy]

dammit oracle! I want Belkar to live! :smallfurious:

also I think that all these alternate possiblities are wrong because Rich seemed to be trying pretty hard to tell us that Belkar is dead, in one year comic time :smallfrown:

[AstralFire]

The undead Belkar thing is way too obvious and doesn't jive with any of the oracle's other comments regarding Belkar. And no, Belkar won't go out in a redemptive sacrifice. He might go out in a Blaze of Glory, but Belkar doesn't have an iota of goodness to be redeemed in the first place.

My money is on the party finally getting fed up with him (as well they should be - I was supremely annoyed the memory charm kicked in on Hayley dishing Belkar what he deserved.)

Frankly, I think most of you are attributing too much WordMastery to the oracle due to trope convention when his twists seem to be a lot less subtle. He's clever and he has foresight, but he's not much of a wordgamer as I think was pretty well evidenced when he was trying to talk his way out of Belkar killing him. Even he didn't buy his own argument, which to me says he doesn't think that way.

[David Argall]

What says that Snarl death is the same as regular death?

We have Word of God-and possibly in-comic, I'm not sure-explanation that Snarl death means no more soul. Which means dead. Forever.
Or death until the writer feels like reviving the character. And in a great many cases, where the writer had to be dragged kicking and screaming to write more about the character. This conversation has happened often in various forms.
Publisher: "This character will make a great sequel."
Writer: "But he's dead. There can't be any sequel. It would be logically inconsistent, a destruction of my artistic integrity, and I don't want to."
Publisher: "So? The advance for the sequel will be double your last book."
And the dead character comes back to life.

Whether it's a knife in the gut or a destruction of the soul, it's just as permanent or temporary.



The Oracle is very carefully avoiding using the words "die" or "death" in reference to Belkar.
The Oracle is talking to someone who is dead and assumes he will be raised soon [tho not as soon as he wants], and whose dad died 6 times and was raised. Saying Belkar is going to die produces the reaction "!@#$, I'm probably going to have to pay for the Raise." Saying Belkar is not long for the world and is going to breathe his last soon makes Roy assume Belkar is going to be dead-dead, not just dead.

Now a possible point here is NCPB round 8 intro. "Belkar is a protagonist...The strip will continue to follow him even if he leaves the OOTS..." That is an if, but it does mean that even if the world is soon to see the last of Belkar, we viewers may not be.

[Essej]

The undead Belkar thing is way too obvious and doesn't jive with any of the oracle's other comments regarding Belkar. And no, Belkar won't go out in a redemptive sacrifice. He might go out in a Blaze of Glory, but Belkar doesn't have an iota of goodness to be redeemed in the first place.

My money is on the party finally getting fed up with him (as well they should be - I was supremely annoyed the memory charm kicked in on Hayley dishing Belkar what he deserved.)


Pshhh, don't be that way Astral, Belkar is just "trying to habe good times". Go back to modding LUE.

And of course he has an iota of goodness, he's only 4 WIS(at most) away from being a saint, why do Belkar haters always forget this strip? I don't want to be linking to this every discussion.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

[Abjurer]

You're all missing the obvious answer.
Belkar finds a ring of sustenance. :smalltongue:

[[levi]]

The Oracle is talking to someone who is dead and assumes he will be raised soon [tho not as soon as he wants], and whose dad died 6 times and was raised. Saying Belkar is going to die produces the reaction "!@#$, I'm probably going to have to pay for the Raise." Saying Belkar is not long for the world and is going to breathe his last soon makes Roy assume Belkar is going to be dead-dead, not just dead.


I think this is probably the most likely case, not to mention the easiest to understand. Though not many people are conmortable with the idea of Belkar really dying.

[Ertier]

I have an idea which ties in Belkar's Death with the end of the strip:
Redcloak harnesses the Snarl's energy and overcome with power kills Xykon. He then, driven mad with power procedes to destroy the world (as well as himself) . However thanks to a well placed Plane Shift by V, everyone is transported to the Snarl's prison and begins the epic battle for the multiverse. Since the prison is most likely timeless nobody breathes and the no longer are on OotS World. Belkar is either killed during the battle, or everyone is trapped in this "limbo" for all eternity. Elan is happy because he saved the universe and can now spend all eternity with Haley.

[Ninja]

I have an idea which ties in Belkar's Death with the end of the strip:
Redcloak harnesses the Snarl's energy and overcome with power kills Xykon. He then, driven mad with power procedes to destroy the world (as well as himself) . However thanks to a well placed Plane Shift by V, everyone is transported to the Snarl's prison and begins the epic battle for the multiverse. Since the prison is most likely timeless nobody breathes and the no longer are on OotS World. Belkar is either killed during the battle, or everyone is trapped in this "limbo" for all eternity. Elan is happy because he saved the universe and can now spend all eternity with Haley.

just one problem with that: SoD spoiler : RC doesn't want the power for himself, he wants to claime in the name of the Dark One, who want's it to blackmail the gods for better goblin status in the world

also, that would mean they just kept fightin in that prison forever, and lets be serious if RC harnesed the power of the snarl, he would kick their @$$E$.....

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You're all missing the obvious answer.
Belkar finds a ring of sustenance. :smalltongue:
Hahahaha...

Oh, that borders on :xykon:

[Sir_Elderberry]

I suspect Belkar dies, half in a blaze of "Screw this, I'm going to kill as many of you as I can", and half in a heroic sacrifice that he refuses to admit happens.

Incidentally, the idea that someone had above--that the Oracle was lying--is an interesting one, considering that the way he got rid of Roy specifically protected his memories. (I don't buy the Oracle "forgetting" to look into the future.) Which would only be necessary if that oracular trance really didn't have magical value at all.

[The Extinguisher]

Or death until the writer feels like reviving the character. And in a great many cases, where the writer had to be dragged kicking and screaming to write more about the character. This conversation has happened often in various forms.
Publisher: "This character will make a great sequel."
Writer: "But he's dead. There can't be any sequel. It would be logically inconsistent, a destruction of my artistic integrity, and I don't want to."
Publisher: "So? The advance for the sequel will be double your last book."
And the dead character comes back to life.

Whether it's a knife in the gut or a destruction of the soul, it's just as permanent or temporary.


One major thing you're not considering here. Rich is his own publisher. He doesn't need to take orders from anyone. If he want's a character to stay dead, so be it. I seriously doubt that if Rich killed off Belkar forever, which is what he plans to do, that enough people would stop buying the books to warrant any reconsideration whatsoever.

[Tulisin]

Consider that there is more than one key word in said prophecy. "Belkar will draw his last breath" could easily be taken to mean "Belkar will change his name". Belkar itself is the second key word.

Of course the earlier prophecies seem to make his death pretty clear, but there's absolutely nothing to stop him from dying and being raised as "Rakleb, the reformed halfling ranger of goodness and peace". Or perhaps coming back as some sort of breathing demonic entity with a different name.

[Balok]

Sometimes things are exactly what they appear to be. Characters in D&D die, despite what players would prefer. This discussion reminds me a lot of the discussions between folks defending Belkar as chaotic neutral, and those siding with Evil. Even after The Giant went on record those discussions continued...

If Belkar dies the real death, I'm sure (1) it will serve the story, (2) he'll be replaced by another interesting and amusing character. Those are what matter to me.

[bluish_wolf]

One major thing you're not considering here. Rich is his own publisher. He doesn't need to take orders from anyone. If he want's a character to stay dead, so be it. I seriously doubt that if Rich killed off Belkar forever, which is what he plans to do, that enough people would stop buying the books to warrant any reconsideration whatsoever.

No. Order of the Stick is published by Paizo.

[David Argall]

One major thing you're not considering here. Rich is his own publisher. He doesn't need to take orders from anyone.
That merely means he takes orders directly from the consumer. The publisher in the example didn't issue any orders. He just pointed out the advantages to the writer of writing what people want to read.



I seriously doubt that if Rich killed off Belkar forever, which is what he plans to do, that enough people would stop buying the books to warrant any reconsideration whatsoever.
That is probably true in the particular case of Belkar. However, the example case is merely to show that nothing within the strip can possibly guarantee that Belkar will or won't return.

[DGM]

It's amazing. The Giant seems to have gone out of his way to make himself clear in advance - even taking a jackhammer to the fourth wall - and it hasn't reduced the speculating and rules lawyering one bit. I'm sure he's in tears, but whether from laughter or pain I couldn't guess. :smalltongue:

My guess for Belkar's death: He dies at the hands of YukYuk, beloved wife of YikYik and mother of YokYok. Bonus points if she's a commoner or otherwise weak and can only threaten Belkar due to the mark.

[silas the monk]

I am not going to actually read any of these theories but for the record here is mine.
In the last part of the adventure Belkar will be petrified in the act of trying to skin a medusa. The rest of the party will probably not notice somehow. The medusa will be revived by some evil cleric but due to some other circumstances will become impaled on belkar's dagger. The party will look for Belkar but will walk right past his statue without recognizing him.

[Draz74]

Belkar has a much of a chance of giving up is Chaotic Evil lifestyle and sacrificing himself as Xykon does of repenting and fighting for law and good.

As in, none. Whatsoever.

I keep seeing this opinion ... and totally disagree. Where is it coming from? Is this left over from the endless debates, in days of yore, about whether Belkar was truly Evil? So, once the Giant ended the debates and confirmed that, "yes, of course he's evil," people just immediately decided that "Evil" = "110% Wholly, Irredeemably Evil With Absolutely No Good Traits"? Automatically, as it were?

Giant's characters are complex. And complex characters almost always have both an element of good and an element of evil in them. I can think of very few exceptions. Even Samwise Gamgee and Gandalf have their faults.

Xykon may, maybe, be one of the exceptions. I can't think of anything good in his character at the moment. Then again, maybe we just haven't seen enough of him to unbury the good traits (especially those of us who haven't had a chance to read Start of Darkness).

Belkar, on the other hand, has shown us plenty of times that he has specks of humanity (or halflingity, whatever you want to call it) under his dominant-Evil facade. His affection for Shojo and especially Mr. Scruffy. His desire to rescue Elan from the bandits.

Some of his good acts are somewhat ambiguous; he claims that they were done entirely for evil motives. But I don't always believe him -- the actions clash too much with his stated apathetic, love-killing-more-than-anything-else principles. I think he had mixed motives, both good and evil, for not killing Miko when he had her unconscious and helpless. Same with saving Hinjo from poisonous assassination. In these acts, I see little sparkles of being a truly complex character.

Of course, just because a character has some good in them doesn't mean they're in some kind of redemption plot. Redcloak certainly has worthy character traits, but I'm sure he'll always stay a bad guy. Same with Xykon, if you find any positive traits in him. But Belkar ... there's been plenty of foreshadowing, IMHO, that he might actually be making some progress. If nothing else, this seems a possible direction for the story because Roy believes in it.

"Redemption" is also relative. Neither Roy nor myself holds much hope that Belkar can ever become a truly noble soul, let alone a crusading paladin of light. But maybe, just maybe, someday he could actually get as far as attaining Chaotic Neutral alignment.

... so yeah, to get back on topic, I think there is potential for Belkar to die in some kind of selfless sacrificial fashion.

[Fish]

See, I figure it means he's going to die. I'm not really looking for loopholes.

Lest we forget, the Oracle also said Durkon will die, it seems to project a time in the future when two of the OOTS are dead. That doesn't mean it's the only two who die, just that those two (at least) shall die.

[David Argall]

The Oracle says "have my fun while I could."
That means that after this year, he is not seeing Belkar again, alive, construct, undead, or any other way. Belkar is becoming history to him.
Of course he may well never see the party again either, but on the face of it, Belkar is going to be leaving the world, and the party.

[Aevylmar]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Belkar cheating his final fate by having his soul utterly destroyed by the Snarl.

Seriously though, I'd feel cheated if Belkar ended up as undead, a construct, an ooze, ETC. It's been stated, implied, and almost stated a sufficient number of times so that I think he's toast.

I also hope, though it's only a hope, that this will happen as soon as possible. I am Not A Fan of Belkar.

[brilliantlight]

Also i think that Evil aligned characters go to Hell.... not Heaven.. u know.. like:
"You shall burn in the fires of Hell forever, because of that gnome!!!'
:belkar:"What gnome?"

Abyss actaully, he is CE not LE.

[Tyrmatt]

The Order of the Scribble's fates pretty much dictate who is going to end up doing what when all is said and done.

[Skeletoff]

Id make him die of intoxication on december 31st.

[Guyinthestreet]

Maybe he'll get shunted off to the Far Realm. And since no one cares that much about him to bring him back, he'll have to spend all his time there.

[Geno9999]

NO! he dies from not eating anything! anything that he does eat he barfs it back out.

[Otempora]

Until we recieve evidence to the contrary, I think it's fairly certain that Belkar's Dead For Real. So far, the Oracle's prophecies have been pretty straight-forward. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" worked for Haley, and Belkar did kill the Oracle. There's no reason, as of yet, that this should be any special twist.

[Scarab83]

You're all missing the obvious answer.
Belkar finds a ring of sustenance. :smalltongue:

Rings of Sustenance don't remove the need to breathe..

I can nearly smell the denial in this thread.

[Raltar]

Three words:

Iridescent. Ioun. Stone.

[Aquillion]

Three words:

Iridescent. Ioun. Stone.
And he never takes it off... ever?

My guess. He finds an Iridescent Ioun Stone, then while he's laughing loudly about how he bested the oracle, a stalactite falls on him and kills him instantly.

[EndlessWrath]

I'm convinced Belkar will either die from the Mark of Justice, or pursuing an option of getting out of the mark of justice.

The part about being razed...well...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html

this is my theory on it. Belkar makes a statement in that comic making it obvious he understands the raise dead spell perfectly.

The spirit has to be willing, if Belkar betrays OotS, and he dies, why would he want to come back? he's chilling in his afterlife while they would probably blame him for the rest of his remade life.

[Arcane_Secrets]

I'm convinced Belkar will either die from the Mark of Justice, or pursuing an option of getting out of the mark of justice.

The part about being razed...well...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html

this is my theory on it. Belkar makes a statement in that comic making it obvious he understands the raise dead spell perfectly.

The spirit has to be willing, if Belkar betrays OotS, and he dies, why would he want to come back? he's chilling in his afterlife while they would probably blame him for the rest of his remade life.

Belkar isn't exactly scheduled to go to a good place after he dies, though. I would not at all be surprised if there was a strip with Sabine looking down at post-mortem Belkar as fresh meat if it turns out she's chaotic evil.

[EndlessWrath]

Belkar isn't exactly scheduled to go to a good place after he dies, though. I would not at all be surprised if there was a strip with Sabine looking down at post-mortem Belkar as fresh meat if it turns out she's chaotic evil.

I never implied he would go to CG heaven.

I more implied that he wouldn't want to come back from the CE heaven

[Aquillion]

Belkar isn't exactly scheduled to go to a good place after he dies, though. I would not at all be surprised if there was a strip with Sabine looking down at post-mortem Belkar as fresh meat if it turns out she's chaotic evil.The D&D afterlife isn't used as reward/punishment in all settings, though. We don't know how it works in OOTS, so it's hard to say... But remember, it's a world with CE deities. A CE deity still wants worshippers, and they know they're not going to get them by promising to stab them in the butt with pitchforks after they die. (And, likewise, why would a deity want to punish their own followers?)

[hamishspence]

The Celestial Realm is similar, but perhaps not identical, to the Seven Mounting Heavens Of Celestia.

Hell in D&D is the only true punishment plane, in the sense of being designed around it. And LE petitioners of evil gods might escape hellish punishment (but be at the tender mercies of their own gods)

Deities have their own realms, and might, even if evil, go out of their way to reward exceptionally powerful and/or devout followers.

Not sure if Belkar qualifies. Do followers of abyssal gods/demons get exempted from the normal dretch fate? I think so (followers of Yeenoghu becoming fiendish gnolls, for example) But, belkar doesn't exactly qualify for that either.

In 3rd ed, even Orcus had to slowly make his way up from dretch to demon lord.

[Niknokitueu]

A CE deity still wants worshippers, and they know they're not going to get them by promising to stab them in the butt with pitchforks after they die. (And, likewise, why would a deity want to punish their own followers?)
Because they are themselves CE, and they can do it.

Take our theoretical christian religeon. Lots of stories go into how Satan tempts people into doing evil, normally with promises of power/wealth 'in the mortal plane'. People have been reputed to have agreed despite knowing that when they die, they face a fate worse than death...

If I were a CE god, I would give the everlasting afterlife ticket to a few 'top echelons', and happily torment the rest (or let the top dead baddies torment them). No-one worships a CE god because they think it is a 'good idea'. They are evil, and have evil reasons for worshipping the evil god (normally dependant on the god itself and the alignment of the god). Normally to do with power over others. Those that 'succeed' get to be in charge 'later on', those that 'fail' must serve the ones in charge.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[brilliantlight]

The Celestial Realm is similar, but perhaps not identical, to the Seven Mounting Heavens Of Celestia.

Hell in D&D is the only true punishment plane, in the sense of being designed around it. And LE petitioners of evil gods might escape hellish punishment (but be at the tender mercies of their own gods)

Deities have their own realms, and might, even if evil, go out of their way to reward exceptionally powerful and/or devout followers.

Not sure if Belkar qualifies. Do followers of abyssal gods/demons get exempted from the normal dretch fate? I think so (followers of Yeenoghu becoming fiendish gnolls, for example) But, belkar doesn't exactly qualify for that either.

In 3rd ed, even Orcus had to slowly make his way up from dretch to demon lord.

The Abyss is just as punishing as Hell it''s just that in Hell it is organized and in the Abyss it isn't.

[hamishspence]

Hell was designed specifically to punish: the devils were, at least, so the Pact Primeval story suggests, in fact contracted to do so. Then that started taking advantage of said contract.

The abyss, by contrast, predates mortals entirely.

At least, as of 3rd ed. $th ed starts making changes.

[Child Conscript]

No no no its all here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82646&page=4#111)

[Demon Slayer]

Now this is a messege to all those people who beleive Belkar is coming back as an undead, or some weird form of a outsider, elemental, or construct.
Death is death he's not coming back he staying in the abyss and he's not coming back. Come on every body in the order hate his guts and it's very unlikly he'll be encountered by a necromancer. Yet weird things have happen before in this comic.

P.S.: I've may have just have repeated some other quote in a different manner.

[David Argall]

Belker is not just breathing his last, he is not long for this world, he should savor his next birthday cake, he should not fund an IRA, the oracle is having fun with him while he can... We are getting to dead parrot length here.
There are theories that account for all of these things, but becoming undead/construct/etc just deals with one prophecy, not the whole bunch of them.