oracle's alignment?

[krossbow]

what alignment do you think the oracle is? He draws his mystical inspiration from tiamat, traditionally one of the more evil deities, and one with her hands in many of the behind celestial business in start of darkness.
Furthermore, he seems to find pleasure in others unhappiness.




I myself would lean towards a neutral evil alignment myself, though i can see why others might see him as neutral.

[Spiryt]

Well, I would say Neutral. He's total < nan na naughty letters >, but he isn't actually harming anyone. Even though his quite insane precognision powers connected with obviously not high mental capabilities = almost certain temptation ( no Monty please ).

[Ninja]

I think he is either lawful evil, oe lawful neutral... he is definitly lawful because he sticks to his rules all the time... even if it means he will die, he will tell his customers the truth.... also, if Tiamat is an Evil deity, than he cannot be good... so it leaves us with evil and neutral....

I would say he is LN, althought he might as well be LE....

[Chronos]

Personally, I'd put him at Lawful Neutral. He does have a certain sense of schadenfreude, and he's rather a jerk, but he doesn't really do anything malicious himself, so I'd put him at morally neutral. Meanwhile, though, he lives by contracts and keeps to the terms of his agreements (the very literal terms, in some cases), and functions well as a part of his society (he seems to have a very good professional relationship with the lizardfolk spellcasters he keeps on retainer, as well as the inhabitants of Lickmyorangeballshalfling). So that points to a lawful alignment, on the ethical axis.

About the most evil thing he's actually known to have done is worshiping Tiamat, an evil deity, but it seems likely that, in OotS, she also acts as a racial deity for kobolds and other reptilian humanoids. And it's not like he has to sacrifice a mammalian baby every time he goes into his oracular trance, or anything.

[Spiryt]

I think he is either lawful evil, oe lawful neutral... he is definitly lawful because he sticks to his rules all the time... even if it means he will die, he will tell his customers the truth.... also, if Tiamat is an Evil deity, than he cannot be good... so it leaves us with evil and neutral....

I would say he is LN, althought he might as well be LE....

Good points, but aside from his all planning, following the rules and habits, he seems also quite random and spontanic in some actions.

As for Good-Evil :
- we don't know if Tiamat's evil in Craynon World, or however we call it:smalltongue: ( haven't read books, maybe answer's there)
- We don't know if standard, kinda stupid "one step" rules from D&D apply
- he's not a Cleric, so he can be good even if his god(dess) is evil.

[Ninja]

As for Good-Evil :
- we don't know if Tiamat's evil in Craynon World, or however we call it:smalltongue: ( haven't read books, maybe answer's there)
- We don't know if standard, kinda stupid "one step" rules from D&D apply
- he's not a Cleric, so he can be good even if his god(dess) is evil.

oh yeah i forgot... but he still strikes me as neutral.... he did try to help Roy with his question about the gates... but he got back at Belkar.... ill stick with LN.....

[Logalmier]

I agree with Spiryt, the Oracle strikes me as fairly neutral. Since he knows if bad stuff will happen to people, but he doesn't really care either way. As for him being lawful, I think we'd need more evidence than that he follows deals to the end to make that presumption.

[VForVaarsuvius]

I'd say true neutral. He set Belkar up, regardless of weather he deserved it or not it seems a bit 'Above the law' to me.

[NikkTheTrick]

I'd say true neutral. He set Belkar up, regardless of weather he deserved it or not it seems a bit 'Above the law' to me.
I'd rather call it "way overdue justice" :smallwink:

Oracle seems very lawful to me since he sticks to letting things proceed no matter what even though that means his death (although death means a lot less in D&D:smallbiggrin:). He could have easily arranged something for himself (protection, not being there, etc.) to make sure Belkar doesn't kill him. Hell, he could have just answered "no" to Belkar's question. And now he is looking forward to his next death.

His setup for Belkar does not look chaotic to me. I don't recall any laws that would be broken in this case. Using law (in this case, mark of justice) to achieve whatever goals (revenge here) looks lawful to me.

As for moral axis, I'd say neutral. He does not go out of his way to be good or evil, just sticks to his job.

[SPoD]

He could have easily arranged something for himself (protection, not being there, etc.) to make sure Belkar doesn't kill him.

That's an assumption. It is far more likely that he knows he has no ability to change the future at all once he predicts it, and so he isn't "letting" himself get killed at all. He just isn't wasting a lot of energy trying to stop something that is 100% going to happen.

Some fictional universes allow characters to prevent a prophecy from coming true, and some don't, with the prophecy coming true no matter how hard you try to avoid it. Based on the Oracle's behavior, OOTS seems to be one of the latter.

[WarriorTribble]

I'm memory serves Tiamat is evil because in SoDshe was part of the alliance of evil gods that wanted to keep the newly born Goblin god alive.

[TigerHunter]

True Neutral. He doesn't do anything to harm people who don't harm him, but doesn't do anything to help them either.

[Warren Dew]

He's definitely lawful.

He does sometimes take some pleasure in others' misfortunes, but no more so than Roy, I think. I don't think he's a jerk; I've only seen him make nasty remarks to people who were nasty to him first, and he was pretty polite to the resurrection team. He did try to help Roy above and beyond the call of duty even after having been hung out the window by him, which is more than I think most people would do.

I'd personally put him at neutral. However, I'd thought that Haley and Vaarsuvius were neutral too, and someone pointed out my error there, so I may have too expansive a definition of neutral. I doubt he's "good", if only because he worships the wrong god.

[An Enemy Spy]

What kind of an idiot wouldn't be polite to the people who raise you from the dead on a regular basis. I think he gets along well with reptiles but is rude to everyone else.

[Red XIV]

I'd say Lawful Neutral.

He's got to be Lawful given how absolutely he goes by the rules, even when he doesn't want to. He gives answers that he knows will get him killed, simply because as an oracle he's required to give true answers. Sure, he can and does arrange to be revived after each death, but getting killed still hurts. He's got what sounds like an extremely painful death coming up, which will happen because he's completely unwilling to lie when acting in his capacity as an oracle.

[Borris]

In the books, we see Tiamat consorting with evil deities from every pantheon. I guess we can definitely mark her down as evil. Most likely LE, like she is in core D&D, but perhaps NE. While not a cleric, I doubt Tiamat would grant oracular powers to someone diametrally opposed to her in alignment. The orcale still doesn't strike me as evil, though, not going out of his way to help people, but not intentionally hurting them either (well, except for those who hurt him first). On the other axis, he's definitely lawful, though: answering questions to anyone who pays, whether he likes them or not or despite the fact that he knows answering will cause his death. You don't really get anymore by-the-book lawful than this. So I'll cast my opinion as Lawful Neutral.

[VForVaarsuvius]

I'd rather call it "way overdue justice" :smallwink:

Oracle seems very lawful to me since he sticks to letting things proceed no matter what even though that means his death (although death means a lot less in D&D:smallbiggrin:). He could have easily arranged something for himself (protection, not being there, etc.) to make sure Belkar doesn't kill him. Hell, he could have just answered "no" to Belkar's question. And now he is looking forward to his next death.

His setup for Belkar does not look chaotic to me. I don't recall any laws that would be broken in this case. Using law (in this case, mark of justice) to achieve whatever goals (revenge here) looks lawful to me.

As for moral axis, I'd say neutral. He does not go out of his way to be good or evil, just sticks to his job.

I didn't say chaotic, though, I meant by neutral more of an elvenesque neutral where their not chaotic but at the same time they have their own law.

[Querzis]

Definitly LN. He never did anything especially evil as far as we know but hes usually a jerk. He doesnt really try to help evil character more then good character and doesnt seems to care about anything else then his duty. Hes there to make prophecy. Thats all. He doesnt especially seems to care if those prophecy are gonna end up saving the world or causing his own death. Hes a very well made LN character.

[drengnikrafe]

It says somewhere in the FAQs that there is no definite character sheet for the characters (I'm too lazy to go hunt it down now, but I know it's in there somewhere). This means they don't have definite stats. No particular feats. No exact skills. No precise inventory. And.... wait for it.... No Alignment. That's right, ladies and gents, the Oracle doesn't technically have an alignment.

[/stupidruleabiding]

[Arkenputtyknife]

It says somewhere in the FAQs that there is no definite character sheet for the characters
Which, presumably, includes Belkar.


This means they don't have definite stats. No particular feats. No exact skills. No precise inventory. And.... wait for it.... No Alignment. That's right, ladies and gents, the Oracle doesn't technically have an alignment.
Therefore, by the same reasoning, neither does Belkar.
Therefore, the Giant was lying when he stated categorically that Belkar was evil.

Methinks there is a flaw in the logic here.

[Paragon Badger]

It says somewhere in the FAQs that there is no definite character sheet for the characters (I'm too lazy to go hunt it down now, but I know it's in there somewhere). This means they don't have definite stats. No particular feats. No exact skills. No precise inventory. And.... wait for it.... No Alignment. That's right, ladies and gents, the Oracle doesn't technically have an alignment.

[/stupidruleabiding]

I'm rather inclined to agree; if only because we don't have enough information.

The Oracle could eat infants in his off-hours. He could also do charity work for infants nearly eaten by scary monsters. We don't really know.

[Querzis]

It says somewhere in the FAQs that there is no definite character sheet for the characters (I'm too lazy to go hunt it down now, but I know it's in there somewhere). This means they don't have definite stats. No particular feats. No exact skills. No precise inventory. And.... wait for it.... No Alignment. That's right, ladies and gents, the Oracle doesn't technically have an alignment.

[/stupidruleabiding]

I dont have a character sheet either, as well as anyone in the real world. But guess what? We can all fit into one of the nine alignement anyway. So, yeah, it really doesnt matter at all. I dont need a character sheet to know Xykon is chaotic evil. Now if you would have said we dont have enough information for that, like Badger, then you would have a point. But we should stop guessing alignement just because they dont have character sheet??? Come on, thats a really crappy argument especially when everything you talked about (feats, skills, inventory and alignement) have been discussed in the comic so, character sheet or not we know for a fact that Roy got Sunder weapons, great cleave and probably a few feats I dont remember, got a +5 starmetal greatsword and hes Lawfull good.

[FrankNorman]

I'd also say the Oracle is Lawful Neutral, based on his actions.

Also, the "giving a prophecy" speech-bubble was green. Good supernatural beings seem to talk in blue, evil ones in red. So green is probably neutral.
And he gave it "on the house".
I think the Oracle's basic attitude is one of "I can be a nice guy when I want to be, but don't cross me!"

[Kato]

I'd not consider him evil... at least more neutral than evil... he has a sharp tongue, but he doesn't harm others - except for Belkar. Though, I'm not completely sure about the lawful thing... It's probable because he's always telling the truth, but something in him gives me the intention of him being just true. So... Somewhere in the lawful/neutral neutral/evil corner... Probably lawful neutral, though. Or is there someone claiming he's good?

[Eric]

I'd not consider him evil... at least more neutral than evil... he has a sharp tongue, but he doesn't harm others - except for Belkar. Though, I'm not completely sure about the lawful thing... It's probable because he's always telling the truth, but something in him gives me the intention of him being just true. So... Somewhere in the lawful/neutral neutral/evil corner... Probably lawful neutral, though. Or is there someone claiming he's good?

I'd put him (actually, do we know it's a "him"?) as LE, but not all that "L" (after all, his sticking to the rules could just be because he'd lose the oracular powers and become a L1 Kobold, whose personal treasure type is about 1d6 copper), He's more a nasty little barstand than Xyxon Evil, he's some level of evil, lower than anyone in Team Evil (except MitD) and less evil than Belkar. But still more in the Evil domain than the Neutral one.

[Dunesen]

It's already been pointed out that Tiamat is evil, given the prequels. I can't really see a Neutral character worshipping a true-Evil deity, so I'm going with Evil for that alignment.

As for the argument that he's been helping the Order stop the gates from being destroyed, that hardly points to Neutral or Good standing. Even Evil characters will have self-preservation (I think it's safe to assume the Evil deities helped imprison the Snarl).

I don't know if the he's all the Lawful, though. The idea that he follows the rules concerning giving prophecies isn't all that convincing, since he most likely stands to lose said powers if he doesn't toe the line. When it comes to rules that are not divinely enforced he'd probably break the ones that don't appeal to him, but the Oracle-status comes from a god. It's not the same thing.

I'd probably go with Neutral. He's very self-obsessed, to the point that he'll construct an entire town to get revenge on one Halfling (think he's getting anything cooked up for the druid in 1187?), but not to the point that he disregards everyone else (which would make him Chaotic). He can play well with others if it benefits him, but only then.

[Squirrel_Token]

Obviously, the only alignment we can be sure of is True Badass.

[Dunesen]

Obviously, the only alignment we can be sure of is True Badass.

I would have said Utter D*****

[T-O-E]

I would have said Utter D*****

WARNING: Parenthesis ahoy.

How? The Oracle may have been rude to the order, but only because two of them had already dangled him out of a window (or were going to) and one was a kobold hater who was about to stab him (which, although didn't permanently kill him, did still hurt).

[Selene]

It says somewhere in the FAQs that there is no definite character sheet for the characters (I'm too lazy to go hunt it down now, but I know it's in there somewhere). This means they don't have definite stats. No particular feats. No exact skills. No precise inventory. And.... wait for it.... No Alignment. That's right, ladies and gents, the Oracle doesn't technically have an alignment.

[/stupidruleabiding]

Yeah, um, if they don't have alignments, please explain comic #489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html). Roy and the deva spend the whole strip discussing Roy's association with a Chaotic Evil halfling. Or #490 where she discusses with Roy how she came to a decision about His Alignment, and into which afterlife to let him.

Deva: You're trying to be Lawful Good.


Also, the oracle is Lawful Neutral, IMO.

[Balok]

I'd go with Neutral. The challenges are traditional and exist chiefly to keep out the riffraff. So far there's been only scant evidence that he lies to petitioners or even that he misleads them to advance some agenda of his own, which is why I go with Neutral. Sure, he does seem to take pleasure at the suffering of others, but so do a lot of people who wouldn't technically be evil. Heck, that's common enough the Germans (gotta love their language) coined a word for it: schadenfreude.

[Dunesen]

WARNING: Parenthesis ahoy.

How? The Oracle may have been rude to the order, but only because two of them had already dangled him out of a window (or were going to) and one was a kobold hater who was about to stab him (which, although didn't permanently kill him, did still hurt).

They dangled him out of a window because he was a smart-ass ("In his throne room" is not an answer), and the amount of pain/suffering he's inflicted on Belkar by activating the MoJ is far greater than what Belkar did to him personally by "killing" him.

And no, I don't think you can say Belkar deserves the punishment based on all the other deeds he's committed. The Oracle doesn't have the authority to dispense justice for those other acts.

EDIT: After Arken's post below I just want to clarify the above statement. The Oracle is not an authority figure of any kind (judge, police officer, etc.), and his efforts to activate the MoJ were not done to punish him for all the other crimes he's committed in the past. It was a personal vendetta, and as I say below, the Oracle goes to rather extreme lengths to invoke a long-lasting revenge for an act that caused a brief bit of pain (the panels at the end of 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) seem to progress in a short time span, as opposed to the middle of 458 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)).

Plus he's used a number of insults without cause (ie, calling virtually all of his customers rubes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html) with "pathetic little lives.").

[Arkenputtyknife]

And no, I don't think you can say Belkar deserves the punishment based on all the other deeds he's committed. The Oracle doesn't have the authority to dispense justice for those other acts.
On the contrary, I can do exactly that.

In real life, there's a thing called a "suspended sentence". It means that the guilty party is sentenced to some punishment, but the punishment will not be executed as long as the guilty party adheres to some condition determined at sentencing time. If the criminal keeps his nose clean, eventually the sentence lapses and he's free. But if the condition is broken, the sentence is applied in full—the guilty party is sent to jail, for example, not for the one new crime but as punishment for all the previous crimes. An additional sentence may be imposed for the new crime.

And that's exactly what the MoJ was: a suspended sentence for crimes already committed. The Oracle wasn't dispensing justice for those crimes; that justice had already been dispensed. Belkar's in deep do-dos because he broke the conditions of his suspended sentence. Punishment for killing the Oracle would be in addition to the effects of the MoJ, should he be prosecuted for it.

Whether the Oracle was a sneaky little git in making sure that Belkar's act (performed in a place where Belkar himself believed, incorrectly, that he would be safe) would result in a violation of the terms of the sentence, is a different question altogether.

[Querzis]

They dangled him out of a window because he was a smart-ass ("In his throne room" is not an answer), and the amount of pain/suffering he's inflicted on Belkar by activating the MoJ is far greater than what Belkar did to him personally by "killing" him.

Ok. So you apparently think that its ok to almost kill someone because he didnt tell you what you wanted to hear even though what he said is true. But you also think its not ok to make sure the one who kill you become too sick to kill again even though he killed you just because you annoyed him and even though hes a mass murderer. Thats great...you're a Belkar fan whos annoyed by what the Oracle did to your precious halfling or you're just one of those who thinks only protaganist can be jerk and good guys at the same time?


Plus he's used a number of insults without cause (ie, calling virtually all of his customers rubes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html) with "pathetic little lives.").

He doesnt really insult people more then Roy or Eugene does.

[Essej]

Ok. So you apparently think that its ok to almost kill someone because he didnt tell you what you wanted to hear even though what he said is true.

So you're just forgeting the fact that Roy wouldn't have killed him and the Oracle knew it, and he knew the consequences of acting like a smartass and did it anyway?



But you also think its not ok to make sure the one who kill you become too sick to kill again even though he killed you just because you annoyed him and even though hes a mass murderer.

You know it comes to mind that the Oracle brought it on himself when he answered Belkar's question with a yes all those strips ago, he could've said no and all current evidence would lead us to believe that that would have been true as well. By saying yes he seems to have created a self-fulfilling prophecy that ended with his own demise, unless of course Belkar also kills V at some point.

At this point I'd have to say that either the Oracle doesn't mind causing himself discomfort just to piss people off or Tiamat just hates him as much as I do.

[Dunesen]

On the contrary, I can do exactly that.

In real life, there's a thing called a "suspended sentence". It means that the guilty party is sentenced to some punishment, but the punishment will not be executed as long as the guilty party adheres to some condition determined at sentencing time. If the criminal keeps his nose clean, eventually the sentence lapses and he's free. But if the condition is broken, the sentence is applied in full—the guilty party is sent to jail, for example, not for the one new crime but as punishment for all the previous crimes. An additional sentence may be imposed for the new crime.

And that's exactly what the MoJ was: a suspended sentence for crimes already committed. The Oracle wasn't dispensing justice for those crimes; that justice had already been dispensed. Belkar's in deep do-dos because he broke the conditions of his suspended sentence. Punishment for killing the Oracle would be in addition to the effects of the MoJ, should he be prosecuted for it.

Whether the Oracle was a sneaky little git in making sure that Belkar's act (performed in a place where Belkar himself believed, incorrectly, that he would be safe) would result in a violation of the terms of the sentence, is a different question altogether.

I'm primarily referring to the Oracle's actions to make sure the MoJ gets activated. I don't believe for a second that the Oracle erected the town because he wanted Belkar to get his for all the other deaths. This was personal spite, and going to the length of building a freaking town to activate a punishment that lasts far longer than the discomfort the Oracle experienced is a level most people probably wouldn't go to. (although the circumstances here will probably never come up in real life)

I should probably amend my earlier post to make this clearer.


Ok. So you apparently think that its ok to almost kill someone because he didnt tell you what you wanted to hear even though what he said is true. But you also think its not ok to make sure the one who kill you become too sick to kill again even though he killed you just because you annoyed him and even though hes a mass murderer. Thats great...you're a Belkar fan whos annoyed by what the Oracle did to your precious halfling or you're just one of those who thinks only protaganist can be jerk and good guys at the same time?

He doesnt really insult people more then Roy or Eugene does.

The simmering anger is practically pouring off the screen here. It's almost funny how you jump to conclusions and blow things out of proportion.

Essej already pointed out that Roy was only threatening the Oracle, and yes, the Oracle should have foreseen that his smartass answer was going to result in that. But he did it anyway, because he's a smartass.

For the record, I am not a Belkar fan to any extent other than that he's a main character and source of some great comedy. Haley and Durkon are more interesting characters, even if their punchlines aren't as frequent as Belkar's. He (like Elan) really is there mostly for comedic value.

The fact that the MoJ has been activated doesn't bother me. I never said Belkar was justified in his action (he wasn't), and again, Essej pointed out the Oracle concievably could have avoided this by changing the future through his own actions. What I'm saying is that the effect is disproportionate to the cause. The Oracle didn't just arrange for Belkar to get beaten up or temporarily killed (the way the Oracle was temporarily dead), he set up the activation of the MoJ as a long-term punishment for something that was undone and that Belkar doesn't recall. Really, the most just punishment that would be based on this one event would be pain equal to the amount the Oracle received before expiring.

As for the Oracle not insulting people as much as Roy or Eugene, you're half-right. Eugene probably has mild contempt for everyone not of his class and alignment and intelligence, but Roy just uses insults to diffuse his own frustration or anger. I don't see the contempt in him that Eugene and the Oracle have.

[Dunesen]

I'd go with Neutral. The challenges are traditional and exist chiefly to keep out the riffraff. So far there's been only scant evidence that he lies to petitioners or even that he misleads them to advance some agenda of his own, which is why I go with Neutral. Sure, he does seem to take pleasure at the suffering of others, but so do a lot of people who wouldn't technically be evil. Heck, that's common enough the Germans (gotta love their language) coined a word for it: schadenfreude.

I think a genuinely Evil character could very easily deliver nothing but truths to people in efforts to cause suffering or to delay heroes or whatever other objective you can think of.

First of all, there's always the fun method of delivering half-truths. Technically you're not lying if you say the treasure chest isn't rigged to explode when you open it. But if you "forget" to mention the spring-loaded, poison-tipped daggers, it's not like they can hold it against you :smallamused:. (case in point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html))

Then there's the truth that you expect them to disregard, or you think will cause them to overreact or react to in the wrong way. Alan Moore did a pretty good Green Lantern story about this with Hal Jordan's predecessor. Don't know what issue it was in, I have a GN called The DC Stories of Alan Moore.

[multilis]

Insufficient data to come to a firm conclusion, but lawful good is certainly possible. Beklar killed him in cold blood. Oracle as far as protecting others in future could be seen as good deed with mark of justice against a murderer.

As Lawful, he couldn't try to stop Beklar from killing him once he knew it would happen, so it's not like he set Beklar up to kill him.

As for wisecracking, this could be his method of humour, not everyone is as they appear. Wisecracking is not evil. He may also have intentionally done Roy a favour in letting him keep memories in a sneaky manner.

[Warren Dew]

EDIT: After Arken's post below I just want to clarify the above statement. The Oracle is not an authority figure of any kind (judge, police officer, etc.), and his efforts to activate the MoJ were not done to punish him for all the other crimes he's committed in the past.

This doesn't address Arken's point. Arken's point is that Belkar has the mark of justice on him, not because of anything the oracle did, but rather because Belkar killed a guard in Azure City.

I think the correct way to view the mark going off is that Belkar did it to himself by killing indiscriminately; the "outside of a village" exception was meant to allow him to defend himself, not to kill random people. Believing that the oracle set the mark off is like believing that Belkar killed Miko's horse. If the oracle did it, he was acting under the delegated authority of Shojo.

However, even if you think the oracle "caused" it to be set off, he did indeed have legitimate authority for it. By setting the terms of the mark of justice, Shojo delegated authority for setting it off to anyone who got killed by Belkar - similar to how anyone could end someone's parole by videotaping a criminal violating the terms of parole.

[Solo]

Getting your revenge against someone who just killed you is perfectly jsutifiable.

Stabbing is not just bit of pain. Get stabbed yourself, you'll see.

Here, allow me to help you with that. *stabs*

[Dunesen]

This doesn't address Arken's point. Arken's point is that Belkar has the mark of justice on him, not because of anything the oracle did, but rather because Belkar killed a guard in Azure City.

I think the correct way to view the mark going off is that Belkar did it to himself by killing indiscriminately; the "outside of a village" exception was meant to allow him to defend himself, not to kill random people. Believing that the oracle set the mark off is like believing that Belkar killed Miko's horse. If the oracle did it, he was acting under the delegated authority of Shojo.

However, even if you think the oracle "caused" it to be set off, he did indeed have legitimate authority for it. By setting the terms of the mark of justice, Shojo delegated authority for setting it off to anyone who got killed by Belkar - similar to how anyone could end someone's parole by videotaping a criminal violating the terms of parole.

I understand what you're saying about Shojo delegating authority, but the way you wrote it sounds weird because a) most people won't know about the MoJ and b) once you've been killed by him you have little chance for activating yourself. It's your death that would activate it. But I get what you're saying.

What I took Arken to mean (and what I'm responding to) is that the Oracle had the authority the way a judge or upholder of the law has authority, as opposed to something like a citizen's arrest (or citizen's punishment here). The MoJ was a type of parole, not a sentence per se, and Roy, if not Shojo, knew that it wasn't going to limit him to self-defense killing.

I don't see the Oracle building the town as being "For your sins you will now be punished" but rather "I've got the means to make you pay for what you just did to me. Bet you didn't see that coming, mammal!"

(As I've said, I don't think Belkar was justified at all, and I'm not shedding any tears over the MoJ being activated. But I consider the Oracle to be just as big a jerk here.)

@multilis, I said the Oracle could conceivably prevent his murder by changing the answer he gave Belkar. This brings up the entire question of whether the future is written or changeable, and I have no opinion on that. I'm just saying it's a possibility in the universe, even if the other prophecies have come true so far.

Now, if we were to get a prophecy they try to prevent from coming true happening nonetheless, then we'll know that everything is written.

[Selene]

As for the Oracle not insulting people as much as Roy or Eugene, you're half-right. Eugene probably has mild contempt for everyone not of his class and alignment and intelligence, but Roy just uses insults to diffuse his own frustration or anger. I don't see the contempt in him that Eugene and the Oracle have.

Eugene is lawful good. The only thing keeping him out of the LG afterlife is his oath. So I would guess rudeness doesn't really relate to one's alignment.

Also, given your location... do you mind if I worry about you a little, and tell you to be careful and try to stay safe?

[Warren Dew]

I don't see the Oracle building the town as being "For your sins you will now be punished" but rather "I've got the means to make you pay for what you just did to me. Bet you didn't see that coming, mammal!"

If what you're saying is that, while the effect of the oracle's actions - setting off Belkar's mark - is just, that's not the reason the oracle takes those actions, I would agree. The oracle's motivations are different from the effect of his actions.


(As I've said, I don't think Belkar was justified at all, and I'm not shedding any tears over the MoJ being activated. But I consider the Oracle to be just as big a jerk here.)

I don't agree that he's "just as big a jerk". If A knows that B is going to beat him up in a dark alley where B's parole officer is not likely to find out about it, and A sets up a video camera so A can send a tape to B's parole officer and get B's parole revoked, I don't think that makes A "just as big a jerk" as B.

[Dunesen]

Eugene is lawful good. The only thing keeping him out of the LG afterlife is his oath. So I would guess rudeness doesn't really relate to one's alignment.

Also, given your location... do you mind if I worry about you a little, and tell you to be careful and try to stay safe?

True, snarkiness or rudeness aren't exactly going to take one out of LG alignment, though they do lecture Roy about his attitude. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

And any words of encouragment are always nice (especially when I feel like I'm about to have several people come after me for my comments in this thread). :smallbiggrin:

[Dunesen]

If what you're saying is that, while the effect of the oracle's actions - setting off Belkar's mark - is just, that's not the reason the oracle takes those actions, I would agree. The oracle's motivations are different from the effect of his actions.

I don't agree that he's "just as big a jerk". If A knows that B is going to beat him up in a dark alley where B's parole officer is not likely to find out about it, and A sets up a video camera so A can send a tape to B's parole officer and get B's parole revoked, I don't think that makes A "just as big a jerk" as B.

I feel the separation from the Oracle's intent and the effect of his actions does make his character (in this situation, at the very least) dubious. I don't think vengeance would be a Good characteristic (to tie this all back in to the original thread question), and so then the question is, does one's intent determine an action's justice or the effects?

If it's the intent, then Belkar is clearly guilty because he wanted to inflict death, and the Oracle is not much better because he went out of his way to set up post-humous revenge. They were both in the mindset of causing pain.

If it's the effect, then Belkar's guilt is somewhat questionable, given that the Oracle did not truly die in the permanent sense. I already wrote a post in another thread about the legal status of whether this was murder or assault (final answer: it all depends on the legal precedents of the land where the act was committed <---cop-out), and I still stand by my assertion that because the Oracle's death was not permanent, it does not qualify as actual murder, and whatever pain the Oracle suffered is not equal to the pain Belkar is going through now (nauseau counts and pain, for the sake of argument).

With the MoJ/parole examples, I think the better thing for the Oracle/Person A to do is to avoid getting killed/beaten up to start with, and this goes back to the Oracle's possible chance to avoid all of this by answering Belkar "No" way back when. What the Oracle and Person A are instead doing is bringing about a longer (arguably worse) reaction to the initial action brought upon them.

[Arkenputtyknife]

What I took Arken to mean (and what I'm responding to) is that the Oracle had the authority the way a judge or upholder of the law has authority, as opposed to something like a citizen's arrest (or citizen's punishment here). The MoJ was a type of parole, not a sentence per se, and Roy, if not Shojo, knew that it wasn't going to limit him to self-defense killing.
Um, no, that's not what I meant. I was saying that the judgment had already been made, the sentence already cast as a suspended sentence, not parole. A suspended sentence is a sentence in the full meaning of the word.

What this means is that the Oracle was not sentencing Belkar—for which the Oracle had no authority—but was ensuring that the condition attached to the preexisting sentence was broken when the murder was committed, for which no authority was needed. Splitting hairs, perhaps, but I suspect that a court of law that reviewed the case would regard it as a significant distinction. The morality of the act is a separate question which I'm not addressing.

(But for the record, I'm very much on the Oracle's side on this one.)

[Eric]

On the contrary, I can do exactly that.

In real life, ....

Two problems.

1) OOTS is not real life
2) OOTS is not real life.

I know that is just ONE reason, but it was so important I thought I'd mention it twice.

[Eric]

I think the correct way to view the mark going off is that Belkar did it to himself by killing indiscriminately; the "outside of a village" exception was meant to allow him to defend himself, not to kill random people. Believing that the oracle set the mark off is like believing that Belkar killed Miko's horse. If the oracle did it, he was acting under the delegated authority of Shojo.

No, because

a) It wasn't a village before
b) The village was constructed SOLELY for the revenge

Belkar killed and the MoJ activated.

However, despite being REALLY pissed off, he didn't kill live creatures in AC.

He would have refrained from killing the Oracle.

So the Oracle had two methods to stop being killed:

a) "This is now in a village. Take a look over there..."
b) "OK. Here's a refund"

But we have him saying that he WANTED to take this way out. He ENJOYED the pain taken.

That's revenge, not justice. And so not "Good".

[Eric]

@multilis, I said the Oracle could conceivably prevent his murder by changing the answer he gave Belkar. This brings up the entire question of whether the future is written or changeable, and I have no opinion on that. I'm just saying it's a possibility in the universe, even if the other prophecies have come true so far.

Now, if we were to get a prophecy they try to prevent from coming true happening nonetheless, then we'll know that everything is written.

And if there is no way around prophesy (the defense of the Oracle), then likewise, Belkar had no choice either. So he isn't responsible for his killing once it's been prophesied.

[Dunesen]

Two problems.

1) OOTS is not real life
2) OOTS is not real life.

I know that is just ONE reason, but it was so important I thought I'd mention it twice.

Like a splash of cold water on the hormones of this thread...

[Arkenputtyknife]

Two problems.

1) OOTS is not real life
2) OOTS is not real life.

I know that is just ONE reason, but it was so important I thought I'd mention it twice.
And it's irrelevant. Both times.

It's true that real life does not dictate what is or is not legal, moral, ethical, yada yada in the world of OotS. But that wasn't the point. The point was that it was an example of something that is true in our world and could be true in the world of OotS. It illustrated my case; it did not prove it.

To counter my argument, you have to show that it is false within the world of OotS. You have not done that.

[Dunesen]

And if there is no way around prophesy (the defense of the Oracle), then likewise, Belkar had no choice either. So he isn't responsible for his killing once it's been prophesied.

And now we're getting into the question of free will...

EDIT: Case in point, see below...

[Essej]

When you start believing that everything is destined by fate individual choices mean nothing as you really have no choice at all. How can anyone truly be good or evil if you were destined to make the choices you make before you were even born? It makes everything boring and it's one of the many reasons I can't stand the Oracle. I hope something along the line shows the Oracle isn't always correct, even if it does destroy my Oracle is a creepy masochist theory.

[Dunesen]

Um, no, that's not what I meant. I was saying that the judgment had already been made, the sentence already cast as a suspended sentence, not parole. A suspended sentence is a sentence in the full meaning of the word.

The technical term Roy used was "out on bail," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) which isn't parole nor seems to fit the definition you give of a suspended sentence, in that he hasn't had a trial yet (pointed out in the second panel of the strip). Now we know AC under Shojo would secretly imprison people, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html) but that's not quite the same as rendering verdict. The trial was postponed, no true sentence given.

[Sir_Elderberry]

And now we're getting into the question of free will...

If I have a crystal ball that tells me what you're going to choose, that doesn't change the fact that you chose it and are responsible for that choice.

[Essej]

If I have a crystal ball that tells me what you're going to choose, that doesn't change the fact that you chose it and are responsible for that choice.

Not really, fate implies you don't have the freedom to choose otherwise. The gods/whatever chose your life for you long ago, you're just here for the ride.

[Draz74]

However, despite being REALLY pissed off, he didn't kill live creatures in AC.
Only because Haley physically restrained him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html)


So the Oracle had two methods to stop being killed:

a) "This is now in a village. Take a look over there..."
b) "OK. Here's a refund"

But we have him saying that he WANTED to take this way out. He ENJOYED the pain taken.

That's revenge, not justice. And so not "Good".

True, but not so "Evil" either, considering it was Belkar's own fault that he had the MoJ on him. Otherwise I could see the Oracle's trick being Evil.

Also, maybe the Oracle wasn't allowed to prevent Belkar killing him, since he had (more or less) prophecied that Belkar would do so. Prophecy is such a complex plot device in terms of those complications that it causes ...

[King of Nowhere]

If the oracle had given Belkar a refund, maybe B would have killed him anyway; seriously, he's Belkar, randomly killing things is what he do. He tryed to justify his murder with haley by saying that the oracle's prophecy weren't reliable, and the oracle supporting this view would have encouraged him in the killing.
If he said "we're in a town, I'm safe", then Belkar would have probably just dragged him out of the town like he did here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html). He's got the highest grappling checks in the party now, and unless haley was willing to kill him she had no other way of stopping him.
And even if for personal vendetta, triggering the mark from belkar is not worst than Roy swearing to destroy Xykon to prove his father wrong. I don't think anyone would question Roy's goodness for that, and I think that of the oracle is a similar case (personal vendetta against someone who deserve anything that could happen to him. If you are good, you may still do that knowing that you're doing a good act. You wouldn't do the same vendetta for someone who was not a total jerk.)

Also, the oracle is often rude to clients and unwilling to help them, but think of his life: everyday he stands in his tower while a lot of people comes to him expecting him to solve their problems; someone even hurt or kill him if he's not satisfied with the answers. It's like if you work in a place where you're the only one capable of using a computer, and everyone comes to you asking the silliest questions. After a while, you start shouting "You idiot, learn to do something yourself and don't bother me!". So, while I would normally consider evil that behaviour, the oracle has a good extenuating circumstance for it.

About his association with Tiamat, remember that the oots gods created the evil humanoids to serve as XP for adventurers; there are only some evil gods willing to protect them, so for a cobold worshipping a god who created him to die on an adventurer's sword and want nothing to him but stay in his place, don't make many sense. An evil god at least care about them, even if sometimes just to piss off the good gods. So even good cobolds may worship Tiamat.
But, there is also the chance, since the oracle is a member of one of the races who are most slaughtered by adventurers, and Tiamat is in good relationship with the Dark One, that the oracle is a supporter of Redcloak's plan, and therefore is not willing to help Roy that much for this reason.

In the end, do not forget that he can see exactly what consequences an action will have after years, so he may do what he knows is better. Maybe he saw that the comic will have an happy ending and try to keep it working in misterious ways. He knows too much more than us to tell.

By the way, I guess for Lawful-But-Not-Too-Much/Neutral-With-Slightly-Evil-Tendencies

[Eric]

If the oracle had given Belkar a refund, maybe B would have killed him anyway;
[QUOTE]

Aye, in which case Belkar would have been completely at fault. With this, it seems more like aggravated murder (we have aggravated assault IRL, where you're still guilty but the punishment is less.

[QUOTE=King of Nowere;4511941]By the way, I guess for Lawful-But-Not-Too-Much/Neutral-With-Slightly-Evil-Tendencies

I'd put (because of his enjoyment of the suffering of Belkar a little more evil, so Evil-but-not-a-lot.

[Eric]

If I have a crystal ball that tells me what you're going to choose, that doesn't change the fact that you chose it and are responsible for that choice.

But that requires it still be a choice. So you see in the crystal ball a choice that then doesn't happen. The crystal ball is broken.

PS There is no crystal ball, this is a prediction by a living creature that can arrange it to come true.

Read up the Oracle in Piers Anthony "Blue Adept" series.

[Eric]

And it's irrelevant. Both times.

It's true that real life does not dictate what is or is not legal, moral, ethical, yada yada in the world of OotS. But that wasn't the point. The point was that it was an example of something that is true in our world and could be true in the world of OotS. It illustrated my case; it did not prove it.

To counter my argument, you have to show that it is false within the world of OotS. You have not done that.

How can saying "OOTS is not real life" be irrelevant to a claim that X should happen in the OOTSiverse because that's what happens here (in real life)?

{Scrubbed}

Also, note about the death of the jailer in AC. Because they were kidnapped (not arrested: since they neither had the right to arrest them in a different country and because the charges were made up) yo ucould call it "Belkar killing a captor and effecting his release".

When this happens because an American Soldier effects release from an Iraqi prison, we make movies and books about the release. We DON'T tell them they should go back and face trial for the deaths.



EDIT: Can the scrubber :smallwink: give me why the scrubbing? AFAIR, there wasn't anything worth scrubbing in that section. Was it a complaint from the one mentioned?

[Dunesen]

If the oracle had given Belkar a refund, maybe B would have killed him anyway; seriously, he's Belkar, randomly killing things is what he do. He tryed to justify his murder with haley by saying that the oracle's prophecy weren't reliable, and the oracle supporting this view would have encouraged him in the killing.

And even if for personal vendetta, triggering the mark from belkar is not worst than Roy swearing to destroy Xykon to prove his father wrong. I don't think anyone would question Roy's goodness for that, and I think that of the oracle is a similar case (personal vendetta against someone who deserve anything that could happen to him. If you are good, you may still do that knowing that you're doing a good act. You wouldn't do the same vendetta for someone who was not a total jerk.)

There's a big difference between Belkar getting pissed off and killing someone and Belkar killing someone just because he can. I'm not going down the road of whether the Oracle tricked Belkar into killing him, but I do think he could have done things to avoid the entire confrontation.

And Roy isn't going after Xykon simply to show his father up. He's said Xykon is a threat, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html) and that someone has to stop him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)

[King of Nowhere]

And Roy isn't going after Xykon simply to show his father up. He's said Xykon is a threat, and that someone has to stop him.

Totally true, but he said that after his trial at Azure City. We know from origin that his reason to pick the blood oath was wrong. He just became a better man in the process.

[Dunesen]

Totally true, but he said that after his trial at Azure City. We know from origin that his reason to pick the blood oath was wrong. He just became a better man in the process.

The only motivation he had at the beginning was the blood oath. They knew nothing of the gate until after the "trial," so it can't be a knock against him that that was not his motivation. Once he knew about the gate, he never went through a point where he said "Not my problem." As soon Shojo and Eugene brought everything out to the "open," Roy took responsibility.

[Warren Dew]

this goes back to the Oracle's possible chance to avoid all of this by answering Belkar "No" way back when.

How can the oracle say "no"? The only possibilities I see are:

1. The oracle doesn't just read the future, he makes the future. He can control whether Belkar kills by making a different prediction, he can control whether Xykon goes to Girard's gate or Kragaar's gate next, and he could make himself ruler of the universe if he wanted - who knows why he doesn't. I don't think this interpretation is very realistic.

2. He could lie about what he sees. I don't think this helps him, though. Firstly, if he'd said no, Belkar would practically guaranteed have still been asking for a refund for having caused the death of Roy and would have killed him anyway. More importantly, the evidence is that what he sees is correct and will happen whatever anyone tries to do to prevent it. In this case, if he sees Belkar killing him, there's nothing he can do about it, and he knows it. Most importantly, he's an oracle: it's his job to be truthful about what he sees in the future; that's what he's paid for.

3. He's a charlatan, who just makes good guesses. In this case, at the point where he makes the prediction, he has no clue about what the situation in the tower is going to be. He just figures that given five people that travel with Belkar, it's a pretty good bet Belkar will cause the death of at least one of them. I find this case implausible because he's got too good a record so far. It's pretty clear that he realized Xykon would go for Soon's gate first, and his prediction for Haley was spot on. Even if this were true, at the time he makes the prediction, saying "no" seems more likely to result in Belkar coming back and killing him than saying "yes" does.

Under none of these circumstances does it make any sense for the oracle to say "no" in response to Belkar's question.

[Carteeg_Struve]

Not really, fate implies you don't have the freedom to choose otherwise. The gods/whatever chose your life for you long ago, you're just here for the ride.

But if that person chose differently, then that would just mean that the prediction earlier on would had revealed a different outcome. So free will is still in play.

[Selene]

And any words of encouragment are always nice (especially when I feel like I'm about to have several people come after me for my comments in this thread). :smallbiggrin:

Ok, consider yourself worried about, then. :smallsmile:

[Dunesen]

How can the oracle say "no"? The only possibilities I see are:

1. The oracle doesn't just read the future, he makes the future. He can control whether Belkar kills by making a different prediction, he can control whether Xykon goes to Girard's gate or Kragaar's gate next, and he could make himself ruler of the universe if he wanted - who knows why he doesn't. I don't think this interpretation is very realistic.

2. He could lie about what he sees. I don't think this helps him, though. Firstly, if he'd said no, Belkar would practically guaranteed have still been asking for a refund for having caused the death of Roy and would have killed him anyway. More importantly, the evidence is that what he sees is correct and will happen whatever anyone tries to do to prevent it. In this case, if he sees Belkar killing him, there's nothing he can do about it, and he knows it. Most importantly, he's an oracle: it's his job to be truthful about what he sees in the future; that's what he's paid for.

3. He's a charlatan, who just makes good guesses. In this case, at the point where he makes the prediction, he has no clue about what the situation in the tower is going to be. He just figures that given five people that travel with Belkar, it's a pretty good bet Belkar will cause the death of at least one of them. I find this case implausible because he's got too good a record so far. It's pretty clear that he realized Xykon would go for Soon's gate first, and his prediction for Haley was spot on. Even if this were true, at the time he makes the prediction, saying "no" seems more likely to result in Belkar coming back and killing him than saying "yes" does.

Under none of these circumstances does it make any sense for the oracle to say "no" in response to Belkar's question.

Earlier in this thread (or maybe the 572 Discussion thread) the idea is brought up that if the Oracle had said no, Belkar wouldn't have gotten pissed off and killed him.

Because the Oracle had said yes, Belkar was expecting to kill someone. He didn't (in a direct way), and so he took it out on the Oracle. If the Oracle had said no, things would not have progressed down this path.

So the question is, can the Oracle change the future? Just because he sees something happen, is he powerless to change anything? That's always the question with prophecies in fiction.

[Dunesen]

Ok, consider yourself worried about, then. :smallsmile:

:smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

Earlier in this thread (or maybe the 572 Discussion thread) the idea is brought up that if the Oracle had said no, Belkar wouldn't have gotten pissed off and killed him.

Because the Oracle had said yes, Belkar was expecting to kill someone. He didn't (in a direct way), and so he took it out on the Oracle. If the Oracle had said no, things would not have progressed down this path.

So the question is, can the Oracle change the future? Just because he sees something happen, is he powerless to change anything? That's always the question with prophecies in fiction.

Belkar would've eventually tried to kill him anyway. The assumption a kobold could through entirely diplomatic means stop that guy from killing him, when Belkar kills a lot of people for less, seems... unlikely.

[Eric]

If A knows that B is going to beat him up in a dark alley where B's parole officer is not likely to find out about it, and A sets up a video camera so A can send a tape to B's parole officer and get B's parole revoked, I don't think that makes A "just as big a jerk" as B.

What if A knows that B is on parole and eggs on B into a fight with cameras watching?

Who's the jerk?

[Eric]

How can the oracle say "no"? The only possibilities I see are:

1. The oracle doesn't just read the future, he makes the future. He can control whether Belkar kills by making a different prediction, he can control whether Xykon goes to Girard's gate or Kragaar's gate next, and he could make himself ruler of the universe if he wanted - who knows why he doesn't. I don't think this interpretation is very realistic.

Under none of these circumstances does it make any sense for the oracle to say "no" in response to Belkar's question.

1. Well, why isn't it realistic? Have you read any of the Blue Adept series? Well, Red Adept asks the Oracle what will happen in a year, "Blue Kills Red" is the answer, so to stop it, Red goes and kills Blue. This is in a realm that adjoins a magic realm with an equal science realm, but in the other realm, Red fails to kill Blue. Because, as it turns out, the Oracle's equivalent on the science realm helped protect the Blue Adept science doppel.

Because his other self was killed, Blue killed Red.

Self-fullfilling prophesy. And didn't require more power, just the belief that the Oracle was neutral in the whole thing.

And if case #1 were true, then no, it would not make sense for the Oracle to say "no" but then it becomes an action that the Oracle MADE happen.

Which is kind of the argument we're making. Strange that you missed it.

[Jorrath_Zek]

The Oracle is Lawful Good.

Lawful for all the reason others have pointed out.

Good because allowing an chaotic Evil character enough rope to hang himself shold he commit an evil act is not the act of an evil character. It's the same thing Roy was willing to do. Belkster knew he was under the mark of justice, and killed the Oracle for no reason other than he likes killing (especially Kobolds).

Add that the Oracle was actively trying to aid Roy the second time Roy came to him...
Add that the sarcastic response of Scary Evil's location to a low level fighter can be seen as the Lawfully honest way to avoid giving the clear answer which will result in the death of an innocent young fighter.

In fact, the Oracle has done nothing to obviously advance himself at the expense of other, nor has he been malicious beyond responding to an evil act. He simply has the ability to line up the response prior to the act.

Most of the argument here is that Tiamat is evil, and so... But the Oracle is not a Cleric. It's perfectly normal that he may not like species which greatly differ from his own, and yet he's willing to serve them rather than spitefully refusing and sending them away empty handed. If he was evil, he could easily by ambushing the ones he knows he can beat, and selling those +5 star metal swords at a great price to those he knows will never return to cause him grief...

Definately Lawful Good, but not to the extreme of a Paladin.

[Dunesen]

Add that the sarcastic response of Scary Evil's location to a low level fighter can be seen as the Lawfully honest way to avoid giving the clear answer which will result in the death of an innocent young fighter.

Except that Roy didn't die the first time, and had the Order not gone to Durkon's gate, Xykon would still be there, in possession of a gate, a greater threat to all of existence than he is right now.

And in all likelihood, the entire story is leading to Xykon being destroyed (little chance for Elan to get a happy ending if not), which wouldn't happen if Roy had never found him in the first place.

[hamishspence]

Makes me think of wesley from Buffy:

"Is he evil?"
"Not in the strictest sense"

And that applies pretty well to the Oracle.

Even if he was a cleric, he could be LN (tiamat required LE or NE in 3rd ed MoTP, but was updated to allow all 3 in Complete Divine)

As it stands, LN seems pretty fair.

[Essej]

But if that person chose differently, then that would just mean that the prediction earlier on would had revealed a different outcome. So free will is still in play.

You really don't get fate at all do you? Free will and Fate are two incompatible systems, the very implication that the future can be accurately read means that it is already set in stone. For free will to exist the prediction could be made, but the person that the prediction was made about could in fact choose to do things differently and invalidate it, but that denies fate. You can't have both, the implication that you can is willful ignorance of the facts.

[King of Nowhere]

If the oracle had told Belkar "no" at his old question, Belkar could have killed him just for the fun of proving him wrong. He killed people for much less. So, no self-fulfilling prophecy, Belkar would have killed him anyway.

And we don't know exactly about fate in ootsverse, but I theorize that this world is subjected to a particular kind of fate called "railroad plot":smallbiggrin:; people have free will, but no matter what they do, it will happen something that will cause the future to be as the dungeon master wanted it to be.
Maybe, if Belkar had turned good, he would have killed the oracle in some deus ex machina way like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html)? :smallbiggrin: (you know, that last sentence wasn't serious, don't answer to that seriously)

[krossbow]

The problem with predictions of the future granted via another being (I.E. Tiamat) is that its inherently contradictory in nature to say that it cannot be changed.


Tiamat gives the oracle the vision. In this case, then there is the question of this: How did the deities not see the snarl coming? If the being giving non-changeable predictions was unable to see its own future, then its visions to mortals are called into question.



Predictions of the future only hold water as unchangable when the source that they're derived from is, at its source, an essentially omnipotent force. For example, in greek mythology, the ones in charge of all that happened were the fates. due to this, any predictions were forced to happen by them; time was a straight road which they alone knew, and could never truly change.


However, in the order of the stick universe, the gods are inherently flawed, and lacking in knowlege; there is also no other beings or power over them. Due to this, coupled with their own inability to see their OWN futures, one could easily conclude that one MUST be able to change their fate.









Either way, who's to say that the oracle's actions and plans aren't in the end leading towards an evil end? He has given his clients information, but with the exception of haley, have any of them actually caused any good? Furthermore, he stood in the way of aiding a party of adventures attempting TO PREVENT THE UNMAKING OF REALITY by ignoring roy, banishing him, and essentially attempting to impede them as much as possible.

This is the equivilent of slashing the tires of a special ops team trying to find a nuke simply because they were rude to you.

[Ninja]

Tiamat gives the oracle the vision. In this case, then there is the question of this: How did the deities not see the snarl coming? If the being giving non-changeable predictions was unable to see its own future, then its visions to mortals are called into question.

IMHO, she didn't see the Snarl simply because she wasn't looking in the future... she felt no need to look in the future as she thought that she needs to create the world first, and she didn't pay attention to the Snarl.... just like none of the other gods didn't see him growing.....

[Querzis]

IMHO, she didn't see the Snarl simply because she wasn't looking in the future... she felt no need to look in the future as she thought that she needs to create the world first, and she didn't pay attention to the Snarl.... just like none of the other gods didn't see him growing.....

That or she knew but didnt care. After all, only the eastern gods got killed and maybe she actually wanted them to die. Or maybe those power of prediction are useless against other gods and, therefore, are useless against the Snarl. We dont know, we cant know and I doubt it really matter that much.

But yeah Krossbow, you definitly gotta understand the difference between knowing the future and being omnipotent. The Oracle didnt know Roy was going to keep his memory. Not because he coudnt have known if he would try to see it in the future but because he didnt care at all and didnt even try to know. He cant be omnipotent, no mortal can (or their brain would explode).

I see no evidence he even know about Roy quest to save the world or that he even know what the Snarl is but, since he can see hes going to get killed in three years by a druid (and I doubt its going to take three years before the two other gates are taken care of) he could very well also just dont care since he know they will succeed. We dont know, we cant know and seriously, basing his alignement on that sort of baseless theory is really crappy. It could also be an elaborate plan to save the world, maybe he know Roy need to stay in heaven for some reasons. But once again, we dont know that and this is a thread about his alignement so its kinda irrevelant.

[hamishspence]

By 3rd and 3.5 ed rules, gods' ability to perceive the future is limited. Mostly greater gods, mostly limited to the areas of their own portfolio. If the god embodies their portfolio: Tiamat, sees events concerning dragons, she IS a dragon, it works easier. However Tiamat is not a greater god in 3rd ed, and in the comic she wasn't shown as one of the 3 "lead gods" (one for each region)

So it would be hard to make the case that she could see her future.

But then, OOTS oracular visions seem a lot more detailed in info than the various 3rd ed oracular spells.

Savage Species gave us the sybil: monster prestige class, predicts the future, must have innate spell-like ability which is divination to qualify.

[Jorrath_Zek]

Except that Roy didn't die the first time, and had the Order not gone to Durkon's gate, Xykon would still be there, in possession of a gate, a greater threat to all of existence than he is right now.

And in all likelihood, the entire story is leading to Xykon being destroyed (little chance for Elan to get a happy ending if not), which wouldn't happen if Roy had never found him in the first place.

Xykon and Redcloak were not able to get the first gate open. It was actually Roy bring a pure hearted fool like Elan with him that placed Xykon in the position to even be able to be a threat.

The fact is, as pointed out at the trial, the fabric of the universe was endangered by the destruction of the D's enchanted gate. D had placed so many epic level custom enchantments on it that no evil could use it, so it was the Order of the Stick's presence which started the rolling ball of destruction and hate to move from where he was perched pecking futilely at D's enchantments.

No doubt the Oracle saw that, and did his best to avoid giving the answer which would set off a chain of events which would lead to so many deathes (including Roy's and his own).

I am still inclined to believe that the Oracle is Lawful Good...
Don't assume he's evil just because his racial God is evil. While that might be a strict rule in versions of the rules, Rich obviously does not strictly follow any version when it does not suit him.
Instead, take a look at the Oracle's actions and judge him by those as well as his apparent intent - Which is how Roy was judged, after all.

[hamishspence]

Good is maybe a bit more active than the Oracle. I can easily see LN, but LG is a little more of a stretch. Similarly, the idea that his rudeness is as a direct result of trying to Save The World. If he thought giving Roy and Durkon the info would have endangered to world that much, he'd have gone into hiding. Unless we go by the "its impossible to prevent fate" interpretation.

[Trazoi]

Either way, who's to say that the oracle's actions and plans aren't in the end leading towards an evil end? He has given his clients information, but with the exception of haley, have any of them actually caused any good? Furthermore, he stood in the way of aiding a party of adventures attempting TO PREVENT THE UNMAKING OF REALITY by ignoring roy, banishing him, and essentially attempting to impede them as much as possible.
Well, he is the Oracle, so he almost certainly knows whether reality gets unmade in the near future. It's not as if snubbing some jerk who dangled him out of a window is going to affect his future :smallsmile:.

[Eric]

If the oracle had told Belkar "no" at his old question, Belkar could have killed him just for the fun of proving him wrong.

Yes. He didn't, though. Did he.

IF the oracle told him that he could have a refund and Belkar STILL killed him, then the Oracle would have no blame to be put upon him.

However, since the Oracle acted in a way that could ensure that Belkar would lose his rag and kill him AND set things up so that Belkar would be punished, then the Oracle is to blame.

Odd thing about blame for some people, though. They think just because one person is to blame, that's saying that another person isn't.

No.

Oracle is to blame for his actions, leading to Belkar killing him.

Belkar is to blame for his actions, killing the Oracle.

BOTH TO BLAME.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Yes. He didn't, though. Did he.
…
BOTH TO BLAME.
This completely ignores that, as far as we can tell, the Oracle not only knew that he was going to die, but also that nothing he could do would prevent it. It's hard—I would go as far as to say stupid—to assign blame to him under those circumstances.

The questions of "blame" and "free will" become very tricky where knowledge of an unavoidable future is involved. I would strongly recommend spending a little time reading up on this subject. A good place to start would be the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's page on Prophecy (http://www.science.uva.nl/~seop/entries/prophecy/). It doesn't solve the issue, but it lays out the questions and the main arguments involved quite well.

It's probably a forlorn hope, but perhaps it'll stop at least some of the nonsense we've been seeing in this discussion.

[chiasaur11]

Oracle is to blame for his actions, leading to Belkar killing him.

Belkar is to blame for his actions, killing the Oracle.

BOTH TO BLAME.

Robot Santa?
Is that you?

If so, I want a new nintendo Wii, and not to be brutally killed.

[Eric]

[QUOTE=Arkenputtyknife;4519351]This completely ignores that, as far as we can tell, the Oracle not only knew that he was going to die, but also that [I]nothing he could do would prevent it[/I/QUOTE]

Uh, how do we tell this?

As far as I can see, we have as much telling us the Oracle engineered the result as is telling us that he couldn't prevent it.

Yet one is the only version you will deign to see.

But let's go with that one. Now, is there any way that Belkar could have done anything to prevent it? If not, we can't blame Belkar either. In your words, it would be stupid to do so.

If there were something Belkar could have done to avoid it, then why could the Oracle not? There's nothing there that says he can't.

[Ramien]

The Oracle is Lawful, but not good. His actions against Belkar, while funny and something the halfling deserved, were not done to protect others, or in self-defense, or even to attempt to mend Belkar's ways. It was vegeance, style, and spite, heavy on the style.

[Querzis]

No.

Oracle is to blame for his actions, leading to Belkar killing him.

Belkar is to blame for his actions, killing the Oracle.

BOTH TO BLAME.

Lol. I'm starting to wonder if you believe anything you say.

Look, any guy who actually knew everything Belkar has done could kill him and it woudnt be more evil then killing mindless evil undead since Belkar is just as dangerous as them if not more. Seriously, we are talking about Belkar, we are talking about a mark of justice that he only managed to avoid the effect until now because Shojo expected Roy to be with him.

If Roy would have saw him kill the gnome or the Oracle, he would have activated the mark himself. Would that make him evil? NO! Quite the opposite, it would make him morally responsible. You dont let a mass murderer run loose like Haley did and call yourself good (yes, I really dont think Haley is good, more like neutral.)

Now I'm not saying that the Oracle did this so that Belkar could never kill again even though, technically, thats what he did either way. He most likely did it just for revenge. But Belkar killed him in cold blood. Even if we dont count the hundred of other people he killed in cold blood, its still more then enough to activate the freaking mark, no matter if the Oracle managed to get resurected later or not. Seriously I just really dont get how someone could say something like : «activating the MoJ that was put on Belkar so that he woudnt be able to kill in cold blood again is totally wrong because, when he killed the Oracle and the gnome in cold blood, Belkar had found a loophole in the mark so that he could kill without activating it». Wow you are right, its so evil and unlawfull to activate the mark when Belkar could have got away with it.

Think about it two freaking seconds there. The Oracle could have killed Belkar and it woudnt be evil. If you really consider it to be evil then every time someone fought an evil creature it was evil. Sure the evil creature attacked them first and they were a threat for lots of innocents but they still killed those evil creatures, thats so wrong! Obviously we should just let evil creatures kill us even when we could stop them!

And «leading Belkar to kill him». Seriously? You must have missed the part when he tried to convince Belkar and himself that the prophecy was already done and when he said it was worth a try even if he didnt believe it. We do have a lot more evidence that the Oracle coudnt change his fate instead of leading directly to Belkar killing him, if only because its really stupid to think the Oracle was ready to lose his expert level just to put an elaborate trap on an halfling who woudnt have killed him if he had said «No» to his question. You really gotta understand the difference between knowing the future and being omniscient around here.

Come on, cut it out. And yes, I know I'm being really rude right now, are you gonna call me evil too?

By the way, the Oracle is LN all the way. Maybe all he did until now was for some really good or really evil goal he had in mind but we dont know that so from the actions he did until now and without taking into account all the baseless theory about him, hes neutral.

[King of Nowhere]

As far as I can see, we have as much telling us the Oracle engineered the result as is telling us that he couldn't prevent it.

The only flaw with that theory is that the oracle wouldn't have a good reason to hate Belkar to the point of losing a level and 5000+ gp. Unless he's strictly related to Yikyik, which I doubt, why should he hate B so much if B wasn't going to kill him anyway?
If we admit instead that B was going to kill the oracle without any incitment, then the oracle has a perfectly good reason to hate him.

Also, the oracle tryed to persuade Belkar that he already fulfilled the prophecy. That could count as an attempt to avoid the killing. You may argue that he already knew it wasn't going to work, but that can apply to every action you suggest he should have done.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Uh, how do we tell this?

As far as I can see, we have as much telling us the Oracle engineered the result as is telling us that he couldn't prevent it.
Show me an instance where one of the Oracle's prophecies has been avoided or negated, and I'll concede that you might have an argument. Alternatively, show me how the Oracle engineered the results of his other prophecies.


Yet one is the only version you will deign to see.
You tread on thin ice when you presume to read another's mind. Go carefully.

[Warren Dew]

IF the oracle told him that he could have a refund and Belkar STILL killed him, then the Oracle would have no blame to be put upon him.

Are you saying that if anyone comes up to you and says "your money or your life", you're actually obligated to give him money? I don't think most people feel that way.

[Dunesen]

Xykon and Redcloak were not able to get the first gate open. It was actually Roy bring a pure hearted fool like Elan with him that placed Xykon in the position to even be able to be a threat.

The fact is, as pointed out at the trial, the fabric of the universe was endangered by the destruction of the D's enchanted gate. D had placed so many epic level custom enchantments on it that no evil could use it, so it was the Order of the Stick's presence which started the rolling ball of destruction and hate to move from where he was perched pecking futilely at D's enchantments.

No doubt the Oracle saw that, and did his best to avoid giving the answer which would set off a chain of events which would lead to so many deathes (including Roy's and his own).

Unless the Order NOT going to Redmountain would have lead to something worse. Xykon and Redcloak may not have been able to open the gate themselves, but I really don't think they'd have been content to just sit on their hands until Kingdom Come. Especially not Redcloak, if he's confronted with a problem he'll try to find a solution or at least learn what he can. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)

It's reasonable to assume that this whole story is leading to Xykon's demise (happy ending for Elan), and while he'll undoubtedly commit more atrocities until then, there's no way of knowing for certain what would have happened had this path not been set.

Like an old Marvel What If?, we can come up with any scenario we want to make it look like what has happened is preferable to what could have happened had the Order not gone to Redmountain.

-Maybe a different group of adventurers would have gone there and one of them would have activated the rune for Xykon.

-Maybe Xykon would have grown frustrated with Durkon's Gate and gone to find another one, perhaps conquering an unsuspecting Azure City and not losing that gate in the process (Miko would not have come unhinged). It's unlikely (but very much possible) Soon put any enchantments on his gate.

-Maybe a whole new character we haven't encountered yet is racing to Girard's gate, and they'll have to fight Xykon and/or the Order and be defeated, something that wouldn't happen if the characters were going down a different path.

And on ad infinitum. There is no way to to "win" this kind of conjecture argument, that the Oracle was trying to spare Roy from a terrible fate and deliver him to something good, when we have no idea what would have happened otherwise.

I doubt the Giant has even considered what would have happened in an alternate timeline.

Maybe the Oracle was doing something good, maybe he was being a smartass.

[Dunesen]

I don't think anyone has really brought up the general question of how much of the future does the Oracle know?

For instance, when the Oracle says Belkar will draw his last breath ever, it makes it sound like he not only has seen Belkar's death, but has peered so far into the future that he can say with more than reasonable certainty that Belkar will never be raised.

If Belkar is undone by the Snarl, that's a singular event to be aware of and makes it 100% certain that he cannot be raised or made undead or whatever. But if Belkar is simply killed, the Oracle would have to look farther and farther into the future to make sure he doesn't come back.

This is assuming the Oracle's visions are a literal, viewing-style experience where he sees the future. If Tiamat is simply telling him things in a verbal manner, that changes things.

If the Oracle's knowledge is verbal, then we can get into debates about how to interpret certain words, is it Belkar the halfling that's a member of the OotS he's talking about (or is he deliberately trying to screw with everyone), and so on.

If it's visual, then we can question how accurate a long-term statement like "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) Has the Oracle really looked so far into the future to make sure that's true? (Assuming a non-Snarl demise)

The Oracle either has been caught off guard before, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), or claims to have been. So I don't think it's too far out of line to say that the Oracle is NOT omniscient (which is the correct term here, not 'omnipotent' that someone above used).

I'm not mentioning this to respond to anyone in particular, but the thread seemed to be moving into discussions of whether the Oracle is infallible, all-knowing, can change their answers, change the future, etc.

Now there could very well be rules in the D&D system for how oracles get their information, which specify how they recieve it, under what conditions, etc. But I'm aware of such rules, so I'm writing this under the assumption that there aren't.

[Eric]

The only flaw with that theory is that the oracle wouldn't have a good reason to hate Belkar to the point of losing a level and 5000+ gp.

Well, the oracle figures "hey ho, have to get some expert level XP" and doesn't seem to be too worried this will not happen. And since he gets a shedload of money, the occasional 5000gp doesn't seem to be a problem either. Neither of the two dudes asked for payment.

Yes, there's arguments that these flaws make the supposition incorrect. But no worse than the ones being made to "prove" me (or others) wrong about the Oracle's manipulations.

[Eric]

Show me an instance where one of the Oracle's prophecies has been avoided or negated, and I'll concede that you might have an argument.

Uh

a) we haven't seen all the predictions
b) if Belkar hadn't killed the Oracle, that would have been one
c) the Oracle goaded Belkar and pissed the ENTIRE OOTS party off that were there

Your request does NOTHING to prove the point right or wrong: if the oracle had been about to lose one, he could have goaded Belkar to ensure this doesn't happen. There's an entire lifestyle at stake here for the Oracle.

[Eric]

Are you saying that if anyone comes up to you and says "your money or your life", you're actually obligated to give him money? I don't think most people feel that way.

If I want to stay alive, yes.

????

Beklar DID NOT SAY "your money or your life". Belkar said "get the manager out here, I want a refund".

TWO

COMPLETELY

DIFFERENT

STATEMENTS.

typed like that in the hope you'll actually be able to read. I suppose comprehension would be too much to ask...

[Eric]

You tread on thin ice when you presume to read another's mind. Go carefully.

Apparently not.

a) We are assuming we know the Oracle's mind

b) Argyll never got dinged for demanding he knew what RB was thinking

You have never thought and written about how it could be that the Oracle is manipulating. You maintain in writing that the Oracle cannot manipulate so therefore when he's annoying the pants of the OOTS, he's not manipulating.

Sounds like you aren't deigning to consider that the Oracle was manipulating events.

[Selene]

Beklar DID NOT SAY "your money or your life". Belkar said "get the manager out here, I want a refund"

...or I'll kill you.

Also, the Oracle knows Belkar will never be raised because he asked someone who *is* both omnipotent and omniscient. Rich. If he knows we're here, he must know Rich is here, too.

[Eric]

...or I'll kill you.

Also, the Oracle knows Belkar will never be raised because he asked someone who *is* both omnipotent and omniscient. Rich. If he knows we're here, he must know Rich is here, too.

Reading the page now. Do you have a different version? Because, and I quote:

Belkar: Yeah? Then get the assistant manager out here, I want a refund.

Don't see any "or I'll kill you" in there. Microdots?:smallconfused:

[Dire Platypus]

I suppose that if the future is already written it surely can be changed.Come on, we have a zilion sci-fi movies to prove that! :smalltongue:

IMO, NE:

The Oracle may be evil - he knows the MoJ and thought it was fun to "activate" it, even though he would not see its effects (knowing is worse then watching)

And I think he's neutral, he doesn't care to obey strict rules but he just doesn't seem that chaotic enough.

[Remirach]

I don't think anyone has really brought up the general question of how much of the future does the Oracle know? For instance, when the Oracle says Belkar will draw his last breath ever, it makes it sound like he not only has seen Belkar's death, but has peered so far into the future that he can say with more than reasonable certainty that Belkar will never be raised.

If Belkar is undone by the Snarl, that's a singular event to be aware of and makes it 100% certain that he cannot be raised or made undead or whatever. But if Belkar is simply killed, the Oracle would have to look farther and farther into the future to make sure he doesn't come back.

This is assuming the Oracle's visions are a literal, viewing-style experience where he sees the future. If Tiamat is simply telling him things in a verbal manner, that changes things.

If the Oracle's knowledge is verbal, then we can get into debates about how to interpret certain words, is it Belkar the halfling that's a member of the OotS he's talking about (or is he deliberately trying to screw with everyone), and so on.

And that IS a good question! The Oracle says in 566 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) that "The Dragon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future."

Note that the plural rather seems to suggest that he doesn't know everything. Else, he wouldn't need visions, he'd just need a singular vision that encompassed ALL THAT SHALL COME TO PASS. That leads me to conclude that he only knows some of the future. It also strongly suggests that he gets literal visions, rather than being told directly what will happen. There's also the fact that when he mentions Celia and Roy's sexual escapade, he certainly sounds as if he witnessed it, rather than having heard about it second-hand.


If it's visual, then we can question how accurate a long-term statement like "Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) Has the Oracle really looked so far into the future to make sure that's true? (Assuming a non-Snarl demise)

Well I can think of a few possibilities offhand:
a) the Snarl does him in (which you've mentioned)
b) He dies in such a way that no one has the motive or the knowledge needed to resurrect him (sometimes you don't need absolute omniscience to come to this conclusion)
c) He DID look that far into the future (I'm not a D&D player, so I don't recall offhand the cutoff date for True Resurrection, but I know there is one, and perhaps he can "focus" his visions on a particular topic and see that it never comes to pass in Belkar's case)
and finally
d) perhaps going into the Oracular trance allows him even greater powers of foretelling than just his regular visions. His regular visions are accurate, but his green-background speech bubbles have the word of a GODDESS backing them up.


The Oracle either has been caught off guard before, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html), or claims to have been. So I don't think it's too far out of line to say that the Oracle is NOT omniscient (which is the correct term here, not 'omnipotent' that someone above used).
Yeah, I don't think he is completely omniscient either. My theory is, he looks into his own future for inescapable FATAL encounters (and hot dates), and also pries into the lives of his clients, and maybe other worldly affairs, but he doesn't necessarily look into EVERYTHING. Knowing everything that was going to happen, all at once... wouldn't that be a bit much for an ordinary mind to handle? So I actually could buy Roy's presumption that he'd slipped past the Oracle's radar.

(Unless of course it's all part of a sinister plan... which made the Oracle want Roy to THINK that he had fooled him... but that's for another topic.)

[Selene]

Reading the page now. Do you have a different version? Because, and I quote:

Belkar: Yeah? Then get the assistant manager out here, I want a refund.

Don't see any "or I'll kill you" in there. Microdots?:smallconfused:

Oh, I'm sorry. If the guy robbing you in the alley is psychotic, homicidal, and armed with dual daggers, is not "or I'll kill you" implied? And did he not, in fact, kill him? :smallconfused:

[krossbow]

i suppose that the question then hinges on ANOTHER question:



that being, in the world of order of the stick, can one change the future?

if it is indeed possible to change the future, then the oracle could be seen to have committed a malicious act, as he could have avoided his fate.

if its impossible, then the oracle was simply attempting to get a little old fashioned justice.

[King of Nowhere]

It's also possible that the future can be somehow changed, but with some thing that still are bound to happen one way or another.
I'm thinking as example at the Terminator saga; the day when machines will rebel against the man is doomed to happen, but the struggles of the heroes in the second episode could posticipate it of some years.
I think only Rich knows the answer. Maybe he'll say something on the topic in commentaries to the fourth book.

[hamishspence]

the SM Stirling novels went the interesting route of having John Conner accidently bring Skynet to full sentience. Ouch.

Trying to dodge prophesy and causing it to happen is a common trope.

[Eric]

i suppose that the question then hinges on ANOTHER question:



that being, in the world of order of the stick, can one change the future?

if it is indeed possible to change the future, then the oracle could be seen to have committed a malicious act, as he could have avoided his fate.

if its impossible, then the oracle was simply attempting to get a little old fashioned justice.

"there is no future but what you make for yourselves".

Oh, and it could be that "the prediction" was combinging

a) Belkar's phychotic tendencies
b) The Oracle wanting to trap Belkar

and combined them both (knowing that EACH are playing a part to ensure that future), resulting in B killing O.

The Oracle is still culpable for his actions in exactly the same way as Belkar is. The problem I have with "the Oracle can't change" is that this seems to HAVE to mean that the Oracle is blameless for inciting murder.

[Eric]

Oh, I'm sorry. If the guy robbing you in the alley is psychotic, homicidal, and armed with dual daggers, is not "or I'll kill you" implied? And did he not, in fact, kill him? :smallconfused:

Looking hard :smallmad: nope, don't see any

alley
drawn dagger

B's in the presence of the Oracle as he's been before. Before, the Oracle was rude to everyone but he didn't lie so as to avoid having to admit to error (and give a refund).

[hamishspence]

If saying "sorry, your item worked, no refund" when it didn't work properly, was incitment to murder, then mildly crooked shopkeepers would be in deep trouble because every time they tried to weasel out of paying and got shot, they'd be accused of incitement. Hardly fair.

Saying the Oracle waas inciting Belkar to murder him was a stretch: he was trying to present a convincing argument that Belkar didn't HAVE to murder him to fulful the prophesy.

[Eric]

If saying "sorry, your item worked, no refund" when it didn't work properly, was incitment to murder, then mildly crooked shopkeepers would be in deep trouble because every time they tried to weasel out of paying and got shot, they'd be accused of incitement. Hardly fair.

Saying the Oracle waas inciting Belkar to murder him was a stretch: he was trying to present a convincing argument that Belkar didn't HAVE to murder him to fulful the prophesy.

Jeeez. Talk about deliberate blindness.

No, the Oracle didn't just say "sorry, your item worked, no refund". He went a whole spiel of crackpot theories about how Belkar wasn't due a refund.

And the only one left for Belkar to murder is V. Yeah, that's not likely.

However, we've this annoying little toerag winding him up and, lucky for the prophesy, he's on the list!!!

[Warren Dew]

So I actually could buy Roy's presumption that he'd slipped past the Oracle's radar.

I could certainly buy that the oracle hadn't foreseen it.

I'm not sure I could buy that the oracle was ignorant of the fact that the memory charm wouldn't work on a banished spirit.

[Warren Dew]

No, the Oracle didn't just say "sorry, your item worked, no refund". He went a whole spiel of crackpot theories about how Belkar wasn't due a refund.

Actually, the oracle did say "sorry, your item worked, no refund", though he used slightly different words. It wasn't until Belkar started arguing with him that he started explaining.

[Dunesen]

And that IS a good question! The Oracle says in 566 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) that "The Dragon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future."

Note that the plural rather seems to suggest that he doesn't know everything. Else, he wouldn't need visions, he'd just need a singular vision that encompassed ALL THAT SHALL COME TO PASS. That leads me to conclude that he only knows some of the future. It also strongly suggests that he gets literal visions, rather than being told directly what will happen. There's also the fact that when he mentions Celia and Roy's sexual escapade, he certainly sounds as if he witnessed it, rather than having heard about it second-hand.

Well I can think of a few possibilities offhand:
a) the Snarl does him in (which you've mentioned)
b) He dies in such a way that no one has the motive or the knowledge needed to resurrect him (sometimes you don't need absolute omniscience to come to this conclusion)
c) He DID look that far into the future (I'm not a D&D player, so I don't recall offhand the cutoff date for True Resurrection, but I know there is one, and perhaps he can "focus" his visions on a particular topic and see that it never comes to pass in Belkar's case)
and finally
d) perhaps going into the Oracular trance allows him even greater powers of foretelling than just his regular visions. His regular visions are accurate, but his green-background speech bubbles have the word of a GODDESS backing them up.


Yeah, I don't think he is completely omniscient either. My theory is, he looks into his own future for inescapable FATAL encounters (and hot dates), and also pries into the lives of his clients, and maybe other worldly affairs, but he doesn't necessarily look into EVERYTHING. Knowing everything that was going to happen, all at once... wouldn't that be a bit much for an ordinary mind to handle? So I actually could buy Roy's presumption that he'd slipped past the Oracle's radar.

(Unless of course it's all part of a sinister plan... which made the Oracle want Roy to THINK that he had fooled him... but that's for another topic.)

Brings up another question, though:

Does the Oracle look into the lives of his future customers just so he can make fun of them? I'm not quite sure what circumstances would lead to him knowing about Roy and Celia, unless a) he wanted to creep them out by explicitly looking for some sexcapades to comment on or b) he just happened to come across it while "time-surfing" the various TV channels of the future.

It's true that he most likely couldn't handle all knowledge, but he has mentioned quite a few things in passing that weren't asked of him and didn't affect him directly:

Ghost Dad
-Belkar dying soon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)
-Roy and Elan's "family reunions" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
-Looking at the published book to read Haley's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
-The Order having a bad credit score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
-Celia not knowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html)Roy couldn't generate magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)
-Roy's dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)
-How Roy's mother has been enjoying the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)

Why would he know this stuff? How did he come to the knowledge? Does he future-research all his customers just to mess with them, or is he more interested in the Order themselves?

Most of this stuff has already happened in the strip/books (the Linear Guild at Cliffport, Celia discussing how to break the charm, Roy dying), so maybe everything the Oracle can accurately predict simply comes from having read all the books that will make up the series. And whatever isn't mentioned in the books, he gives vague answers to. It would explain how an oracle serving a LE deity can peer into the LG afterlife.

Or more likely, he has a vested interest in the Order specifically because their quest is so important. I don't really think he's trying to find out anything about the druid just for fun.

---

The limit on True Resurrection goes beyond my familiarity of D&D (which can charitably listed as "novice"), so I wasn't sure if Belkar could somehow (for some reason) be resurrected five hundred years down the line or not.

[Remirach]

i suppose that the question then hinges on ANOTHER question:

that being, in the world of order of the stick, can one change the future?
Also an excellent question. My opinion, from what we've seen so far, is that the future cannot be changed.

But we have rather limited examples to work with, so it can't be said with utter certainty. I'm nursing a pet theory that it is possible for PCs, whom the world literally revolves around (much to Redcloak's irritation), and PCs alone to alter the course of destiny. Otherwise, if everything is preordained, the quest seems boring. Of course they'll win (or lose), it's been foretold already.


if it is indeed possible to change the future, then the oracle could be seen to have committed a malicious act, as he could have avoided his fate.

if its impossible, then the oracle was simply attempting to get a little old fashioned justice.
From the evidence we have so far, I think it seems far more likely that the Oracle cannot change the future. Consider that druid fellow who is later going to subject the Oracle to an even MORE painful demise just for speaking the truth, and that the Oracle has already made arrangements for his own Resurrection. He never contemplates lying, or preparing some kind of self-defense. It looks as though there actually isn't much he himself can do to alter the course of events other than Foretell them.

...unless maybe he's a masochist or something? His anger at the pain he experienced at Belkar's hands seems to suggest otherwise.


I could certainly buy that the oracle hadn't foreseen it.

I'm not sure I could buy that the oracle was ignorant of the fact that the memory charm wouldn't work on a banished spirit.
Why is that so hard to believe? Seeing selective pieces of the future doesn't necessarily translate to utter omniscience, and I rather doubt he's ever compared notes on the subject with any other unwanted spirits he's banished.

On the other hand, it's QUITE possible that the "memory charm" in question is one that souls are subjected to when they're raised back to life (which might help to explain why Eugene, who died no fewer than six times in his career, never remembered the consequences of an unfulfilled Blood Oath). It's also possible the Oracle was just messing with Roy and wanted him to THINK he made a mistake. For... some unknown (and possibly sinister) reason. Or third, perhaps Roy will go to the Sunken Valley AGAIN and then be subject to the memory charm for a third time, and the Oracle's words were foreshadowing of that.

That said, I still personally think it's a possibility he just goofed. In my opinion, it’s very easy for people to over-estimate the general intelligence of someone who can actually see the future. How smart would the Oracle be if he didn’t have his blessing? I tend to think Roy agrees with me here, look at his disparaging (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) remark when he learns the Oracle considers his gift analogous to “learning an honorary Ph.D." It's a total B.S. claim that reeks of unwarranted arrogance.

I’m not saying the Oracle’s dumb, by any means, I just think there’s a tendency to assume he’s smarter than he’s really proven himself to be when you discount his ability to foresee the future.


Brings up another question, though:

Does the Oracle look into the lives of his future customers just so he can make fun of them? I'm not quite sure what circumstances would lead to him knowing about Roy and Celia, unless a) he wanted to creep them out by explicitly looking for some sexcapades to comment on or b) he just happened to come across it while "time-surfing" the various TV channels of the future.
Maybe he just sort of "fast-forwards" through their histories and waits for something to leap out at him, and/or has some kind of radar that's tuned to facts he's particularly interested. As for the Roy/Celia tryst, it might be one of those things he's particularly interested in, especially if he can use that knowledge to embarrass his clients (whom he has a marked disdain for). anf for more practical purposes, for new customers especially, the Oracle knowing offhand all sorts of private information certainly adds credibility to his claims of knowing the future.


It's true that he most likely couldn't handle all knowledge, but he has mentioned quite a few things in passing that weren't asked of him and didn't affect him directly:

Ghost Dad
-Belkar dying soon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html)
-Roy and Elan's "family reunions" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
-Looking at the published book to read Haley's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
-The Order having a bad credit score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
-Celia not knowing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html)Roy couldn't generate magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)
-Roy's dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html)
-How Roy's mother has been enjoying the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)

Why would he know this stuff? How did he come to the knowledge? Does he future-research all his customers just to mess with them, or is he more interested in the Order themselves?
I personally think he pries into the lives of future and present customers. He’ll know who’s coming to him (so he knows about his death at the hands of an irate customer in the future, and why said customer will be so furious). As I’ve said, it adds credibility to his claims of fortune-telling. It’s also probably pretty amusing (for him), and best of all, his customers don’t remember everything he subjected them to once they leave.

And as to Roy's MOM, perhaps he never would have looked at all if Roy hadn't been the one to throw the gauntlet. Turnabout is fair play...

But I like the idea that he might be interested in the Order particularly. NOte that he's been somewhat contradictory in his dealings with them. He didn’t go out of his way to help Roy let Celia and Haley know he was lurking around, but he DID try to set Roy straight on what Gate Xykon was headed towards. Does he oppose the plans of Xykon and Redcloak, but dislike most of the Order personally? (Although, then again, if Roy had gone to Girard’s gate, Azure City would still have fallen AND Roy would likely not have died. Heck, maybe he’s subtly working AGAINST them all. There is that whole bit in SoD where we find that Tiamat and the Dark One are allies… although presumably she wouldn’t want the world to be unmade either. But what about the Dark One’s other goals… equality for all sentient beings? It’s a puzzle. )


Most of this stuff has already happened in the strip/books (the Linear Guild at Cliffport, Celia discussing how to break the charm, Roy dying), so maybe everything the Oracle can accurately predict simply comes from having read all the books that will make up the series. And whatever isn't mentioned in the books, he gives vague answers to. It would explain how an oracle serving a LE deity can peer into the LG afterlife.

Clever! Probably not provable until the series is finished and all the books have been published, but that WOULD explain things.



The limit on True Resurrection goes beyond my familiarity of D&D (which can charitably listed as "novice"), so I wasn't sure if Belkar could somehow (for some reason) be resurrected five hundred years down the line or not.
I don't play it either so I'm reduced to relying on d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org), which states that the limit is "10 years per caster level," so hypothetically a level 50 cleric could raise Belkar five hundred years from now. So whoops on my part. Although that scenario seems HIGHLY unlikely, I guess you can't rule it out entirely.

[The_Ferg]

Good points, but aside from his all planning, following the rules and habits, he seems also quite random and spontanic in some actions.

For the last freaking time, spontaneity does NOT indicate chaos and structure does NOT indicate law. A character's attitude toward tradition, loyalty, and regulation determines their position on the ethical axis, NOT whether or not they are random.

Damn it, do I need to freaking write an essay on this? The Judging/Perceiving axis on the Meyers-Brigg Personality Indicator is NOT equal to the Law/Chaos axis of ethics in the DnD universe. For the love of pizza...

[Eric]

Actually, the oracle did say "sorry, your item worked, no refund", though he used slightly different words. It wasn't until Belkar started arguing with him that he started explaining.

So?

"It worked"
"How?"
[making up BS arguments".

It could have gone:

"It worked"
"How?"
"You still have two targets left"

[Eric]

If saying "sorry, your item worked, no refund" when it didn't work properly, was incitment to murder, then mildly crooked shopkeepers would be in deep trouble because every time they tried to weasel out of paying and got shot, they'd be accused of incitement. Hardly fair.

Saying the Oracle waas inciting Belkar to murder him was a stretch: he was trying to present a convincing argument that Belkar didn't HAVE to murder him to fulful the prophesy.

Do you know why we have "the bakers dozen"? 13 loaves?

Because when a shopkeeper (especially baker because it was a uncontained good and a staple) shortchanged, they could be dragged around the town on the ground by a horse.

This sometimes ended with the death of the shopkeeper.

Case for prosecution rests.

[hamishspence]

Case for the defense: Stickverse doesn't use medieval justice. See Azure city.

How BS the theories the Oracle offered depends on point of view. If half the forums were espousing one or the other theory, that suggests they couldn't be all that implausible.

[hamishspence]

Yes, by legal sentence, NOT by taking the law into one's own hands. And OOTS-verse doesn't necessarily use that kind of sentence anyway.

[hamishspence]

After sentence, not as a matter of people taking justice into their own hands. D&D justice isn't the same as medieval justice anyway.
And the Oracles prediction did not have a time limit on it. No case for fraud can be made. (plausibility of his suggestions might vary, but all have been raised as possibilities here)

Oracles actions can't be take as entrapment, if we believe what he said, "worth a shot" which suggests he was trying to aviod his fate, not cause it.

Provocation, maybe, but not serious enough provocation to be deemed a crime, nor to make what Belkar did manslaughter rather than murder.

[Dunesen]

Also an excellent question. My opinion, from what we've seen so far, is that the future cannot be changed.

But we have rather limited examples to work with, so it can't be said with utter certainty. I'm nursing a pet theory that it is possible for PCs, whom the world literally revolves around (much to Redcloak's irritation), and PCs alone to alter the course of destiny. Otherwise, if everything is preordained, the quest seems boring. Of course they'll win (or lose), it's been foretold already.

Now that brings up the question of what exactly separates a PC from a NPC. Couldn't a shopkeeper have his own dramatic backstory and desires? Can a candlemaker decide to become a rogue (or be forced into due to bankruptcy or false imprisonment) and then become a PC?

Or can a PC decide to give up a quest and become a bartender, relinquishing his/her feats and XP?


From the evidence we have so far, I think it seems far more likely that the Oracle cannot change the future. Consider that druid fellow who is later going to subject the Oracle to an even MORE painful demise just for speaking the truth, and that the Oracle has already made arrangements for his own Resurrection. He never contemplates lying, or preparing some kind of self-defense. It looks as though there actually isn't much he himself can do to alter the course of events other than Foretell them.

...unless maybe he's a masochist or something? His anger at the pain he experienced at Belkar's hands seems to suggest otherwise.

Or he has to stay Lawful in order to retain his standing with Tiamat. It's very much possible he can alter the future, but he just doesn't know how to do so without putting himself in a potentially worse situation. His attempts at convincing Belkar the prophecy had already come true might have been an honest shot at changing something he had seen.



Why is that so hard to believe? Seeing selective pieces of the future doesn't necessarily translate to utter omniscience, and I rather doubt he's ever compared notes on the subject with any other unwanted spirits he's banished.

On the other hand, it's QUITE possible that the "memory charm" in question is one that souls are subjected to when they're raised back to life (which might help to explain why Eugene, who died no fewer than six times in his career, never remembered the consequences of an unfulfilled Blood Oath). It's also possible the Oracle was just messing with Roy and wanted him to THINK he made a mistake. For... some unknown (and possibly sinister) reason. Or third, perhaps Roy will go to the Sunken Valley AGAIN and then be subject to the memory charm for a third time, and the Oracle's words were foreshadowing of that.

That said, I still personally think it's a possibility he just goofed. In my opinion, it’s very easy for people to over-estimate the general intelligence of someone who can actually see the future. How smart would the Oracle be if he didn’t have his blessing? I tend to think Roy agrees with me here, look at his disparaging (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) remark when he learns the Oracle considers his gift analogous to “learning an honorary Ph.D." It's a total B.S. claim that reeks of unwarranted arrogance.

I’m not saying the Oracle’s dumb, by any means, I just think there’s a tendency to assume he’s smarter than he’s really proven himself to be when you discount his ability to foresee the future.

The whole "Will Roy remember it when he gets raised" question is going to be raised sooner rather than later, and whether being dismissed is a loophole here will be answered at the same time. I don't see much point in postulating about the soon to be answered question.

However, re: the question of the Oracle's intelligence, I would like to point out he's been pretty good at cheating death and getting revenge on a certain Halfling. He at least has ample common sense.

Though the way he treats other people may not be because of Tiamat's blessing but because of the memory charm (which you mentioned later on). Take that out of the equation and he's going to have to watch his rambling and what he may let slip in ordinary conversation.


Maybe he just sort of "fast-forwards" through their histories and waits for something to leap out at him, and/or has some kind of radar that's tuned to facts he's particularly interested. As for the Roy/Celia tryst, it might be one of those things he's particularly interested in, especially if he can use that knowledge to embarrass his clients (whom he has a marked disdain for). anf for more practical purposes, for new customers especially, the Oracle knowing offhand all sorts of private information certainly adds credibility to his claims of knowing the future.

Lisa Simpson: Wow, you can see into the...present.

Knowing about the upcoming fight with the Linear Guild at Cliffport indicates precognizance. Simply knowing what has happened could be a sign of telepathy. Not that potential customers are going to be thinking this over when they go to see him.


I personally think he pries into the lives of future and present customers. He’ll know who’s coming to him (so he knows about his death at the hands of an irate customer in the future, and why said customer will be so furious). As I’ve said, it adds credibility to his claims of fortune-telling. It’s also probably pretty amusing (for him), and best of all, his customers don’t remember everything he subjected them to once they leave.

And as to Roy's MOM, perhaps he never would have looked at all if Roy hadn't been the one to throw the gauntlet. Turnabout is fair play...

But I like the idea that he might be interested in the Order particularly. NOte that he's been somewhat contradictory in his dealings with them. He didn’t go out of his way to help Roy let Celia and Haley know he was lurking around, but he DID try to set Roy straight on what Gate Xykon was headed towards. Does he oppose the plans of Xykon and Redcloak, but dislike most of the Order personally? (Although, then again, if Roy had gone to Girard’s gate, Azure City would still have fallen AND Roy would likely not have died. Heck, maybe he’s subtly working AGAINST them all. There is that whole bit in SoD where we find that Tiamat and the Dark One are allies… although presumably she wouldn’t want the world to be unmade either. But what about the Dark One’s other goals… equality for all sentient beings? It’s a puzzle.

My first question is, how does the Oracle know about Roy's mom? Can he peer into the LG afterlife?

But re: SoD

People keep pointing out that Tiamat was on the Dark One's side when they debated making him a god. I've mentioned before, there's a big difference between letting him into the Pantheon and actively wanting to help him get control of the Snarl. Just like Redcloak said, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) this is a dangerous gambit that could easily go the wrong way, and the wrong way here is the complete destruction not just of the world, but the remaining gods and goddesses as well.

I doubt that Tiamat is aware of the Dark One's plan, certainly not involved.

Kobolds are mentioned as being similiar to goblins, in that they were created as little chunks of XP for PCs. It's not unreasonable to assume that if Tiamat is a/the patron for kobolds, she would have a vested interest in kobolds getting a better shake at survival and establishing societies.

But if that were the case, why isn't there a kobold Redcloak trying to get control of a gate? Unless that's one of the sides to the fight the demon roaches know about...

Is anybody keeping tabs on Kraagor's gate?


Clever! Probably not provable until the series is finished and all the books have been published, but that WOULD explain things.

If this is the real answer, it's worse than anything M. Night Shyamalan could think up. Seriously, the Giant is looking for a beatdown if he tries to pull that off as the final answer. :smalltongue:


I don't play it either so I'm reduced to relying on d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org), which states that the limit is "10 years per caster level," so hypothetically a level 50 cleric could raise Belkar five hundred years from now. So whoops on my part. Although that scenario seems HIGHLY unlikely, I guess you can't rule it out entirely.

True, I don't think Belkar is going to inspire anyone after his death the way the Dark One did. :smalltongue:

[Babale]

why do you all think that the oracle trying to help roy makes it "good" or at least "neutral"? ITS TO SAVE HIS OWN LIFE! If your worst enemy could save the world from certain doom, would you not help him?! The oracle doesn't want the universe destroyed! it lives in the universe, too! So of COURSE he'll try to help roy! but the oracle is still a bastard! "in his throne room" ring a bell, anyone?! if roy and a hundred other humans die, the oracle would barely blink! SO WHY DO YOU THINK THAT BEING DOING ONE "GOOD" DEED MAKES THE ORACLE GOOD? HE IS OBVIOSLY EVIL! HE LIKES WATCHING MAMMALS SUFFER! SHEESH!

[Gwain]

I think he's true neutral.

As not helping Roy, what if he "knows" that Roy IS going to get back to life even without his help, so he just didn't had a reason to help him?
(plus, he had revenge on the big meanie that held him out of a window, of course ;) )

[chiasaur11]

My first question is, how does the Oracle know about Roy's mom? Can he peer into the LG afterlife?



He read the book.

[Remirach]

Now that brings up the question of what exactly separates a PC from a NPC.
We haven't yet been given a detailed answer to this question, although the characters within the strip don't seem to have any trouble making the distinction. The hobgoblins get their "I killed a PC" shirts, and Redcloak states that he himself is an NPC, despite having PC class levels, and so on. He also says the PCs are the story's major protagonists, which would explain his own lack of inclusion, as well as Xykon's, and would probably cover the Linear Guild as well.

Couldn't a shopkeeper have his own dramatic backstory and desires?
Yes, but he'd more than likely have to have NPC class levels, which would mean he's not a PC by definition.

Can a candlemaker decide to become a rogue (or be forced into due to bankruptcy or false imprisonment) and then become a PC?
He could get PC class levels, but I don't know if that would make him a PC in story terms.

Or can a PC decide to give up a quest and become a bartender, relinquishing his/her feats and XP?
I tend to think this is something akin to what the Order of the Scribble wound up doing -- retiring. I suspect they WERE considered PCs back in the day. Eugene possibly was too. But I don't think they'd have to give up their feats and XP, since it's been established that you can have PC class levels without being considered a PC.

Confusing, ain't it?


Or he has to stay Lawful in order to retain his standing with Tiamat.
He's not a cleric, though, so the one-step rule doesn't apply. Although he may need to stay Lawful regardless, in order to remain in her good graces.


It's very much possible he can alter the future, but he just doesn't know how to do so without putting himself in a potentially worse situation. His attempts at convincing Belkar the prophecy had already come true might have been an honest shot at changing something he had seen.
So you're suggesting that he CAN alter the future, but would either fall out of favor with Tiamat as a result, or can't figure out a way to not get himself into a worse situation. Your first explanation is plausible, but the second... why could he not just set up traps for people intent on killing him and then look into the future and see if they'd work? If they didn't, then try something else. If he can change the future, the future he'd be seeing would change as his own actions did. If his attempts at thwarting destiny would ALWAYS fail due to some contrived coincidence, then that means that for all practical purposes, he cannot change the future.


The whole "Will Roy remember it when he gets raised" question is going to be raised sooner rather than later, and whether being dismissed is a loophole here will be answered at the same time. I don't see much point in postulating about the soon to be answered question.
You're right -- THAT particular piece of verbiage went on for so long I'm sure Vaarsuvius would have started to nod off. Especially seeing as it came to no conclusion whatsoever. Sorry 'bout that.


However, re: the question of the Oracle's intelligence, I would like to point out he's been pretty good at cheating death and getting revenge on a certain Halfling. He at least has ample common sense.
"Cheating death" when you know you're going to die ahead of time and have the resources to set up a prompt resurrection isn't really all that impressive in my book. Setting off Belkar's Mark was a nifty piece of work, though. I didn't mean to imply the Oracle was stupid -- I think he's fairly wily and clever, actually. I've just noticed a tendency for a lot of people to act as though he's completely infallible, which hasn't really been proven and seems to be predicated on his special abilities, which in real life could make just about ANYONE with moderate intelligence look like Einstein.


Though the way he treats other people may not be because of Tiamat's blessing but because of the memory charm (which you mentioned later on). Take that out of the equation and he's going to have to watch his rambling and what he may let slip in ordinary conversation.
I don't know if Tiamat really has anything to do with his contemptuous attitude -- he could have just always been that way naturally. I just found his "honorary Ph. D" remark to be an arrogant thing to say, taking credit for something he hadn't really done anything to EARN. The memory charm doubtless exacerbates the issue when it comes to dealing with customers.


Lisa Simpson: Wow, you can see into the...present.

Knowing about the upcoming fight with the Linear Guild at Cliffport indicates precognizance. Simply knowing what has happened could be a sign of telepathy. Not that potential customers are going to be thinking this over when they go to see him.
He might be able to fool people into thinking he has telepathy (all to the good when it comes to appearing impressive, which the Oracle seems to like), but if he did have it, he was oddly reluctant to use it in Haley's case, instead citing his ability to read the translation in the book compilation in the future. But it seems that he knows ahead of time who is going to visit him and may look into their futures periodically. Also, Roy did visit the Oracle (with Durkon), before his MPS with Celia, and the Oracle would have known he was coming back, so he had double reason to keep tabs on him. Especially if he knew Roy and the OOTS was going to play a vital role in keeping the world intact and safe from the Snarl.


My first question is, how does the Oracle know about Roy's mom? Can he peer into the LG afterlife?
No idea. Seems to be the most logical conclusion at this time.


But re: SoD

People keep pointing out that Tiamat was on the Dark One's side when they debated making him a god. I've mentioned before, there's a big difference between letting him into the Pantheon and actively wanting to help him get control of the Snarl. Just like Redcloak said, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) this is a dangerous gambit that could easily go the wrong way, and the wrong way here is the complete destruction not just of the world, but the remaining gods and goddesses as well.
Actually, that's not right. When Redcloak spills the beans to Right-Eye, he says the consequences of the plan going south would be that the WORLD was destroyed, but NOT the gods. The gods will still be around to remake the world for a second time, this time with the Dark One having some say in how things are run. That's why TDO is willing to consider the Plan a win-win situation for him no matter how it turns out. Mind that Tiamat still might not be all that keen on the world she helped to create being destroyed for a SECOND time, and all of her worshipers completely annihilated down to their very souls, but she herself isn't in danger.


I doubt that Tiamat is aware of the Dark One's plan, certainly not involved.
It seems to me far more likely she IS aware -- the main servant of hers that we've seen can see into the future, surely a plot to blackmail the gods would register on his radar? Or is he not allowed to tell her about it for some reason? The Oracle does know, and is afraid of, Xykon.


Kobolds are mentioned as being similiar to goblins, in that they were created as little chunks of XP for PCs. It's not unreasonable to assume that if Tiamat is a/the patron for kobolds, she would have a vested interest in kobolds getting a better shake at survival and establishing societies.

But if that were the case, why isn't there a kobold Redcloak trying to get control of a gate? Unless that's one of the sides to the fight the demon roaches know about...
I had thought this was a possibility way back when, and I'm really starting to think she's got a good case building up now. Plus all this talk of "say hi to your boss," and "I have a VIP flying in," makes me think there's definitely some kind of shadowy alliance in the background that we know little about.

And heh, wouldn't it be hilarious if the boss in question were Ekdysdioksisuurwo, the "Viridian Lord" Xykon blasted because of his outlandish name? (If he's a Lord, he can possibly manage a resurrection, right? And what DID that black gem of his do?) Or better yet ::snicker:: XYKLON?


Is anybody keeping tabs on Kraagor's gate?
Serini built it, and she may still be alive (halflings having a longer lifespan than humans), although the line that "she wasn't the retiring type" may indicate she's not paying as close attention to it as she should.


If this is the real answer, it's worse than anything M. Night Shyamalan could think up. Seriously, the Giant is looking for a beatdown if he tries to pull that off as the final answer. :smalltongue:
I don't know, I think it might work for a comical character such as the Oracle, who just lives to knock down that forth wall.


True, I don't think Belkar is going to inspire anyone after his death the way the Dark One did. :smalltongue:
Plus, you don't usually GET level 50 characters in D&D campaigns. Xykon is ≥ 21, and he's considered one of the biggest bads around. The OOTS, who are hovering somewhere around 13, are already considered high level.

[Ninja]

why do you all think that the oracle trying to help roy makes it "good" or at least "neutral"? ITS TO SAVE HIS OWN LIFE! If your worst enemy could save the world from certain doom, would you not help him?! The oracle doesn't want the universe destroyed! it lives in the universe, too! So of COURSE he'll try to help roy! but the oracle is still a bastard! "in his throne room" ring a bell, anyone?! if roy and a hundred other humans die, the oracle would barely blink! SO WHY DO YOU THINK THAT BEING DOING ONE "GOOD" DEED MAKES THE ORACLE GOOD? HE IS OBVIOSLY EVIL! HE LIKES WATCHING MAMMALS SUFFER! SHEESH!

why are you yelling..... and how do you know he likes watching mammals suffer? because of B? if someone killed you, i think you would do the same if you could..
and he does warn the mammals that if they have erections lasting more than 4 hours.... i'm sorry.. never mind that... :smallbiggrin:

no i still think he is Lawful... as to E, G or N i dont know..... i guess ill always think of him as LN....

[Dunesen]

He read the book.

D'oh! :smallmad:

[Selene]

We haven't yet been given a detailed answer to this question, although the characters within the strip don't seem to have any trouble making the distinction. The hobgoblins get their "I killed a PC" shirts, and Redcloak states that he himself is an NPC, despite having PC class levels, and so on. He also says the PCs are the story's major protagonists, which would explain his own lack of inclusion, as well as Xykon's, and would probably cover the Linear Guild as well.

The easiest way to define PCs is to think in terms of it being a game. If OotS was a game, which characters would have players, and which characters would the DM be running? PCs = Player Characters, NPCs = DM characters. In OotS, I expect that only the Order would be PCs.




Actually, that's not right. When Redcloak spills the beans to Right-Eye, he says the consequences of the plan going south would be that the WORLD was destroyed, but NOT the gods. The gods will still be around to remake the world for a second time, this time with the Dark One having some say in how things are run. That's why TDO is willing to consider the Plan a win-win situation for him no matter how it turns out. Mind that Tiamat still might not be all that keen on the world she helped to create being destroyed for a SECOND time, and all of her worshipers completely annihilated down to their very souls, but she herself isn't in danger.

True, but remember that in SoD, Tiamat tells The Dark One that "Seriously, you don't want to mess with that thing."



And heh, wouldn't it be hilarious if the boss in question were Ekdysdioksisuurwo, the "Viridian Lord" Xykon blasted because of his outlandish name? (If he's a Lord, he can possibly manage a resurrection, right? And what DID that black gem of his do?) Or better yet ::snicker:: XYKLON?

Yes, yes it would. LOL.

[Dunesen]

We haven't yet been given a detailed answer to this question, although the characters within the strip don't seem to have any trouble making the distinction. The hobgoblins get their "I killed a PC" shirts, and Redcloak states that he himself is an NPC, despite having PC class levels, and so on. He also says the PCs are the story's major protagonists, which would explain his own lack of inclusion, as well as Xykon's, and would probably cover the Linear Guild as well.

Yes, but he'd more than likely have to have NPC class levels, which would mean he's not a PC by definition.

He could get PC class levels, but I don't know if that would make him a PC in story terms.

I tend to think this is something akin to what the Order of the Scribble wound up doing -- retiring. I suspect they WERE considered PCs back in the day. Eugene possibly was too. But I don't think they'd have to give up their feats and XP, since it's been established that you can have PC class levels without being considered a PC.

Confusing, ain't it?

:smalleek:

I wasn't expecting much of an answer...


He's not a cleric, though, so the one-step rule doesn't apply. Although he may need to stay Lawful regardless, in order to remain in her good graces.

So you're suggesting that he CAN alter the future, but would either fall out of favor with Tiamat as a result, or can't figure out a way to not get himself into a worse situation. Your first explanation is plausible, but the second... why could he not just set up traps for people intent on killing him and then look into the future and see if they'd work? If they didn't, then try something else. If he can change the future, the future he'd be seeing would change as his own actions did. If his attempts at thwarting destiny would ALWAYS fail due to some contrived coincidence, then that means that for all practical purposes, he cannot change the future.

My basic theory is that the Oracle gets his powers with conditions attached. I doubt he can (or would want to) use his powers to go against Tiamat's wishes, for example, but that's a pretty basic idea. But I also think that whatever power he has to try to alter the course of things is limited.

It could be that within the Stickverse, attempting to change the future simply changes the variables but not the sum. The Oracle would still die, for different reasons. But those different reasons could have other consequences. A butterfly effect, so to speak, the initial results stay the same but the further you go down the timestream the more things start changing, until the future is completely different than what it once was.

Maybe the Oracle has to be careful when to flap his wings, because something way beyond the Order needs to be set up just right.


"Cheating death" when you know you're going to die ahead of time and have the resources to set up a prompt resurrection isn't really all that impressive in my book. Setting off Belkar's Mark was a nifty piece of work, though. I didn't mean to imply the Oracle was stupid -- I think he's fairly wily and clever, actually. I've just noticed a tendency for a lot of people to act as though he's completely infallible, which hasn't really been proven and seems to be predicated on his special abilities, which in real life could make just about ANYONE with moderate intelligence look like Einstein.

We don't know what the relationship between the Oracle and the resurrectionists is. He might have had to engineer some massive Constantine-style triple-cross to get in their good graces and convince them their boss needs him.

Maybe the next prequel will focus on the Oracle.


I don't know if Tiamat really has anything to do with his contemptuous attitude -- he could have just always been that way naturally. I just found his "honorary Ph. D" remark to be an arrogant thing to say, taking credit for something he hadn't really done anything to EARN. The memory charm doubtless exacerbates the issue when it comes to dealing with customers.

I'm not saying that Tiamat directly is making him a jerk, but that having her blessing (the seer powers) makes him cocky. Take that away and his attitude might change.


He might be able to fool people into thinking he has telepathy (all to the good when it comes to appearing impressive, which the Oracle seems to like), but if he did have it, he was oddly reluctant to use it in Haley's case, instead citing his ability to read the translation in the book compilation in the future. But it seems that he knows ahead of time who is going to visit him and may look into their futures periodically. Also, Roy did visit the Oracle (with Durkon), before his MPS with Celia, and the Oracle would have known he was coming back, so he had double reason to keep tabs on him. Especially if he knew Roy and the OOTS was going to play a vital role in keeping the world intact and safe from the Snarl.

MPS?



Actually, that's not right. When Redcloak spills the beans to Right-Eye, he says the consequences of the plan going south would be that the WORLD was destroyed, but NOT the gods. The gods will still be around to remake the world for a second time, this time with the Dark One having some say in how things are run. That's why TDO is willing to consider the Plan a win-win situation for him no matter how it turns out. Mind that Tiamat still might not be all that keen on the world she helped to create being destroyed for a SECOND time, and all of her worshipers completely annihilated down to their very souls, but she herself isn't in danger.

If the Snarl gets loose the gods and goddesses could be caught off guard. True, they can run and regroup and try to imprison it again, but would any of them want to risk the Snarl getting loose at a point they can't see? Who wants to risk being near the world when the Snarl breaks out?


It seems to me far more likely she IS aware -- the main servant of hers that we've seen can see into the future, surely a plot to blackmail the gods would register on his radar? Or is he not allowed to tell her about it for some reason? The Oracle does know, and is afraid of, Xykon.

The Oracle knows about Xykon, but might not be concerned with Redcloak (an established NPC). The actual plan of the Dark One could escape his notice, and thus Tiamat's as well.

But I'd put money down on: if Tiamat knows about the plan, she would either try to actively stop it (and Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't have gotten this far) or she's in on it fully and is working to get a similar result as TDO. But is one of them going to betray the other...?


I had thought this was a possibility way back when, and I'm really starting to think she's got a good case building up now. Plus all this talk of "say hi to your boss," and "I have a VIP flying in," makes me think there's definitely some kind of shadowy alliance in the background that we know little about.

And heh, wouldn't it be hilarious if the boss in question were Ekdysdioksisuurwo, the "Viridian Lord" Xykon blasted because of his outlandish name? (If he's a Lord, he can possibly manage a resurrection, right? And what DID that black gem of his do?) Or better yet ::snicker:: XYKLON?

I read SoD when it came out, and haven't picked it up in about a year now. Which really sucks, because now I'm starting to really get into the message boards and predicting what will happen and everything, and I don't have the two prequels on hand.

It would be a nice full-circle thing if it was Ekdy.

But Xyklon would be tough. Xykon is scary-evil, but Xyklon has a full extra letter in his name, so he's even more of a bad-ass :smallwink: Don't be fooled by his shape, that's just a ruse.


Serini built it, and she may still be alive (halflings having a longer lifespan than humans), although the line that "she wasn't the retiring type" may indicate she's not paying as close attention to it as she should.

I know Serini was guarding it, but Dorukon was guarding his and he got bumped off. Someone might be camping out right next to Kraagor's gate, figuring out what to do next.

[Eric]

Dunesen, maybe a short way to put it (yeah, doesn't sound like me :smallredface:)

The Oracle's *job* may be of a different alignment to him.

A free-spirit-moon-child may still have to work in the accounting office to afford to live, and while there will act appropriate to an accountant. Doesn't mean they are themselves different.

[Eric]

why are you yelling..... and how do you know he likes watching mammals suffer? because of B? if someone killed you, i think you would do the same if you could..

I wouldn't feel I'd had my fun with him for it when having my revenge, however.

Rather like Belkar *likes* killing things. Hence, unlike Roy (who gets no enjoyment from the killing itself but has killed a lot of creatures), Belkar is CE and Roy LG.

[snafu]

The Oracle's *job* may be of a different alignment to him.

A free-spirit-moon-child may still have to work in the accounting office to afford to live, and while there will act appropriate to an accountant. Doesn't mean they are themselves different.

Interesting idea! So he's stuck in a role which is cripplingly Lawful, and has to find loopholes in it to have any Chaotic fun... Which I suppose puts him in the same boat as quite a lot of us.

As for good / evil, I'm not sure. An Evil character would have delighted in giving Roy a totally misleading answer to his overly precise question, because it helps Team Evil. A Chaotic character might do the same, just because that kind of misinformation is fun. A Lawful character might answer the question exactly as stated out of sheer pedantry. Yet the Oracle tried his best to get Roy to reword it so that he could have had a useful answer. He's trying to follow the spirit of the rules, where Roy has made an obvious mistake in composing his question, but is unwillingly held to the letter of them.

Tricky.

I'm inclining towards CG at the moment. 'In his throne room' is a Chaotic answer, correct and yet useless, and since Xykon is no great threat at that time it's not really Evil. Trying to get Roy to rewrite his question is a Good act, because Xykon is at that moment heading straight for Azure City with an army and extreme evil in mind. And subverting the Mark of Justice to get personal revenge on Belkar, an evil character - I'd count that as CG all the way.

[Mercenary Pen]

I would guess the Oracle is neutral evil... I mean, it's pretty obvious that the Oracle's just out for himself...

I mean, take the oracle's death for instance, he can see it coming, so he tries to turn it to his own advantage...

[Eric]

I would guess the Oracle is neutral evil... I mean, it's pretty obvious that the Oracle's just out for himself...

I mean, take the oracle's death for instance, he can see it coming, so he tries to turn it to his own advantage...

Hey, watch it, we don't want THIS one to turn into a 20-page epistomological rant.

:smalleek:

[Eric]

[QUOTE=snafu;4539666As for good / evil, I'm not sure. An Evil character would have delighted in giving Roy a totally misleading answer to his overly precise question, because it helps Team Evil[/QUOTE]

The oracle delighted in getting the MoJ activated with Belkar.

On its own, not enough to count him "evil" because we all know Belkar and any Kobold have "issues". Add to his mean-spirited character and willful baiting of all parties plonks him definitely into "Evi", though pretty mildly compared to RC/Xykon and even Belkar himself.

[Remirach]

The easiest way to define PCs is to think in terms of it being a game. If OotS was a game, which characters would have players, and which characters would the DM be running? PCs = Player Characters, NPCs = DM characters. In OotS, I expect that only the Order would be PCs.

That's certainly a much more succinct definition than mine... it holds up pretty well, although I think you'd have to allow for a "precursor" clause for the Order of the Scribble, who were said to have had "a great campaign" ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), but most of them are dead.


True, but remember that in SoD, Tiamat tells The Dark One that "Seriously, you don't want to mess with that thing."
She did, but it came off as a warning. Rat's statement that "maybe he needs to know," could be see in a similar vein -- tDO needs to understand the danger of the being he'd just discovered.

:smalleek:

I wasn't expecting much of an answer...
Selene's is a lot shorter and more to the point. Me, I can go on and on... you REALLY don't want to see what debates between me and David Argyll turn into.

My basic theory is that the Oracle gets his powers with conditions attached. I doubt he can (or would want to) use his powers to go against Tiamat's wishes, for example, but that's a pretty basic idea. But I also think that whatever power he has to try to alter the course of things is limited.

It could be that within the Stickverse, attempting to change the future simply changes the variables but not the sum. The Oracle would still die, for different reasons. But those different reasons could have other consequences. A butterfly effect, so to speak, the initial results stay the same but the further you go down the timestream the more things start changing, until the future is completely different than what it once was.

Maybe the Oracle has to be careful when to flap his wings, because something way beyond the Order needs to be set up just right.
I just have a hard time wrapping my head around this. The Butterfly Effect I understand, absolutely, but you'd have to account for the Oracle's ability to see the future and see those consequences later on down the line. Unless you suppose the event in question is one he's not permitted to see or know about.

Which DOES work, although it seems much more convoluted than "he can't / isn't allowed to" alter his own predictions. So I think the simpler explanation is the more likely one.

We don't know what the relationship between the Oracle and the resurrectionists is. He might have had to engineer some massive Constantine-style triple-cross to get in their good graces and convince them their boss needs him.
I still think the simpler explanation is they are allies or just on good terms. Consider how the Oracle treats THEM. They act subordinate to him, but he doesn't treat them like servants, say's it's good to be back, and apologizes for not warning them about Belkar's mess. His "say hi to your boss for me" seemed pretty friendly. Although you're right, we don't know the details, but I don't see any evidence of anything shady going on just yet. So I'm still with Occam on this point.

Maybe the next prequel will focus on the Oracle.
Ooooh, that could be a LOT of fun. You might want to bookmark this post just in case, since I think you're the first person to suggest it and then you could come back with an "I KNEW IT!"

I'm not saying that Tiamat directly is making him a jerk, but that having her blessing (the seer powers) makes him cocky. Take that away and his attitude might change.
Possibly, although I don't know if we'll ever get the chance to learn. Him losing his powers and then gaining greater respect for others... just doesn't sound like the kind of plotline we're likely to see. It sounds too Disneyesque. I think at least SOME of that cockiness must be inborn -- maybe he's overcompensating for something (no, not that something), like being considered beneath contempt as a kobold, or maybe he was a kid always picked on in his village.

MPS?
Mad Passionate Sex.

If the Snarl gets loose the gods and goddesses could be caught off guard. True, they can run and regroup and try to imprison it again, but would any of them want to risk the Snarl getting loose at a point they can't see? Who wants to risk being near the world when the Snarl breaks out?
The Gates keep the Snarl from breaking out into the physical world, and the Dark One's cavalier acceptance of this possibility seems to suggest that he's in no danger -- so the other gods probably aren't either. The threat is that with control of the Gates, they can CHANGE what plane of existence the Snarl is unleashed upon, and thus pick one of the gods. Since Timat's an ally, she's likely in no danger from tDO's wrath.

Although we DID learn all of this from Redcloak, who learned it from the Dark One, who himself may not understand all the forces at work, so the info might be suspect.

The Oracle knows about Xykon, but might not be concerned with Redcloak (an established NPC). The actual plan of the Dark One could escape his notice, and thus Tiamat's as well.
Xykon is quite likely an NPC himself, and NPCs can still be movers and shakers in the world. And Xykon knows about the plan (sort of), so even if for some reason RC is being ignored, something about him should have popped up.

But I'd put money down on: if Tiamat knows about the plan, she would either try to actively stop it (and Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't have gotten this far) or she's in on it fully and is working to get a similar result as TDO. But is one of them going to betray the other...?
Or maybe she's allowing the plan to come to near fruition and will THEN appear to offer her services in stopping it... at an exorbitant price, of course. If tDO and Tiamat were working together, and she was plotting a betrayal, my guess would be that while the Dark One merely wants to THREATEN the gods, Tiamat perhaps wants them all eliminated, allowing her SOLE COSMIC JURISDICTION over the entire planet... or something. But whatever the case, I just seriously suspect she must know SOMETHING's up.

I read SoD when it came out, and haven't picked it up in about a year now. Which really sucks, because now I'm starting to really get into the message boards and predicting what will happen and everything, and I don't have the two prequels on hand.

It would be a nice full-circle thing if it was Ekdy.

But Xyklon would be tough. Xykon is scary-evil, but Xyklon has a full extra letter in his name, so he's even more of a bad-ass :smallwink: Don't be fooled by his shape, that's just a ruse.
I'd scan it for you, but I'm pretty damn sure that'd be a huge no-no. Xyklon would be funnier for the name-confusion factor, but Ekdy has a better case going for him: he has personal reason to hate Xykon and Redcloak, and that gem of his may be a lot more powerful than we'd originally been led to believe. Hell, maybe Right-Eye's comments about him crapping more powerful artifacts could be a sort of ironic foreshadowing.

I know Serini was guarding it, but Dorukon was guarding his and he got bumped off. Someone might be camping out right next to Kraagor's gate, figuring out what to do next.
The Linear Guild, perhaps?

[hamishspence]

Maybe some of the Oracle's unpleasant manner comes from the fact that he knows at least one, and maybe more, customer/s will mangle him when he gives them bad news.

Sure, he is surly and mean-spirited. So was Eugene. Eugene has put the Order through unpleasant experiences as well, though he reserves his worst behaviour for his son.

[Eric]

why are you yelling..... and how do you know he likes watching mammals suffer? because of B? if someone killed you, i think you would do the same if you could..
and he does warn the mammals that if they have erections lasting more than 4 hours.... i'm sorry.. never mind that... :smallbiggrin:

no i still think he is Lawful... as to E, G or N i dont know..... i guess ill always think of him as LN....

He'd already made clear his perception of mammals before Belkar killed him.

[Eric]

Maybe some of the Oracle's unpleasant manner comes from the fact that he knows at least one, and maybe more, customer/s will mangle him when he gives them bad news.

Sure, he is surly and mean-spirited. So was Eugene. Eugene has put the Order through unpleasant experiences as well, though he reserves his worst behaviour for his son.

And I wouldn't be suprised to find out that, when the Oath is fulfilled, Eugene doesn't get to heaven. At least not the one he was destined for when he died.

[hamishspence]

Roy hopes he goes to Hell, the Archon says basically: Not a realistic possibility. I've been wondering for a while if acts commited after death count. I think they should but not sure if they do. Paladin Blues commentary suggests that Eugene was a bit of a mean-spirited jerk in life: maybe he has got a bit worse in death.

[Dunesen]

Selene's is a lot shorter and more to the point. Me, I can go on and on... you REALLY don't want to see what debates between me and David Argyll turn into.

I was just asking rhetorically (though at length). I enjoy good conversation as much as anyone, but trying to apply the specific set-up of a game (or in this case, the specific rules of any particular edition) to a fiction universe gets a bit wonky.


I just have a hard time wrapping my head around this. The Butterfly Effect I understand, absolutely, but you'd have to account for the Oracle's ability to see the future and see those consequences later on down the line. Unless you suppose the event in question is one he's not permitted to see or know about.

Which DOES work, although it seems much more convoluted than "he can't / isn't allowed to" alter his own predictions. So I think the simpler explanation is the more likely one.

Something he can't see, or is not allowed to...

I've never even thought of that. The raises a lot of possibilities.


I still think the simpler explanation is they are allies or just on good terms. Consider how the Oracle treats THEM. They act subordinate to him, but he doesn't treat them like servants, say's it's good to be back, and apologizes for not warning them about Belkar's mess. His "say hi to your boss for me" seemed pretty friendly. Although you're right, we don't know the details, but I don't see any evidence of anything shady going on just yet. So I'm still with Occam on this point.

It's the simplest explanation, easily, but not the most fun. Remember, the demon cockroaches can count at least nine sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) to this equation. If we have Team Evil as one (not Xykon and Redcloak seperately), the Order as two, and the Linear Guild as three, we're still left with six to account for. The VIP coming in could be a fourth, but if the Oracle is looking out for himself, that makes five.

All assuming that the 9+ sides will get revealed in the course of the comic, which I think is a pretty safe bet (why tease us otherwise?).

And in regards to how he deals with the guys that resurrected him, friendliness doesn't mean he's their friend. Ever had a really nice waitress or cashier that you knew didn't care about you? Customer service and all (though the Oracle doesn't really care about that with his regular customers).


Ooooh, that could be a LOT of fun. You might want to bookmark this post just in case, since I think you're the first person to suggest it and then you could come back with an "I KNEW IT!"

Ever since SoD came out I was expecting maybe some background on the Linear Guild. But the Oracle would be more fun.


Possibly, although I don't know if we'll ever get the chance to learn. Him losing his powers and then gaining greater respect for others... just doesn't sound like the kind of plotline we're likely to see. It sounds too Disneyesque. I think at least SOME of that cockiness must be inborn -- maybe he's overcompensating for something (no, not that something), like being considered beneath contempt as a kobold, or maybe he was a kid always picked on in his village.

I don't think the Oracle is currently an important enough character to get a full on face-turn or redemption or anything. If it turns out he has his own scheme going regarding the gates he'll probably still be looking out for himself up to the end.



The Gates keep the Snarl from breaking out into the physical world, and the Dark One's cavalier acceptance of this possibility seems to suggest that he's in no danger -- so the other gods probably aren't either. The threat is that with control of the Gates, they can CHANGE what plane of existence the Snarl is unleashed upon, and thus pick one of the gods. Since Timat's an ally, she's likely in no danger from tDO's wrath.

Although we DID learn all of this from Redcloak, who learned it from the Dark One, who himself may not understand all the forces at work, so the info might be suspect.

I'm not sure about the mechanics of all this, but it seems the gods exert influence on the physical realm, which indicates some proximity to it. If one of them is helping a follower on the physical plane, wouldn't they be close enough to the Snarl to be undone if it breaks out at that moment?

I'm just speculating here.


Xykon is quite likely an NPC himself, and NPCs can still be movers and shakers in the world. And Xykon knows about the plan (sort of), so even if for some reason RC is being ignored, something about him should have popped up.

Working on the idea that the Oracle can only observe a limited amount of a person's life, he might have brushed Redcloak off as an underling. A high-leveled one, but an underling nonetheless.


Or maybe she's allowing the plan to come to near fruition and will THEN appear to offer her services in stopping it... at an exorbitant price, of course. If tDO and Tiamat were working together, and she was plotting a betrayal, my guess would be that while the Dark One merely wants to THREATEN the gods, Tiamat perhaps wants them all eliminated, allowing her SOLE COSMIC JURISDICTION over the entire planet... or something. But whatever the case, I just seriously suspect she must know SOMETHING's up.

Everyone has their own angle, how many people are playing each other?


I'd scan it for you, but I'm pretty damn sure that'd be a huge no-no. Xyklon would be funnier for the name-confusion factor, but Ekdy has a better case going for him: he has personal reason to hate Xykon and Redcloak, and that gem of his may be a lot more powerful than we'd originally been led to believe. Hell, maybe Right-Eye's comments about him crapping more powerful artifacts could be a sort of ironic foreshadowing.

I definitely think it would be funny/awesome if Ekdy turns out to have a role in all this. The Giant wouldn't even have to reference SoD, just say "Here's another guy Xykon killed."

But why can't Xyklon be involved in this as well? His tagline was "The Consequential." Consequential as in "the result of something", or consequential as in "of importance"?

Think about it, won't you?




The Linear Guild, perhaps?

Or the kobold Redcloak and another town of kobolds, trying to figure out how to open the gate.

[Eric]

I don't think the Oracle is currently an important enough character to get a full on face-turn or redemption or anything. If it turns out he has his own scheme going regarding the gates he'll probably still be looking out for himself up to the end.


He's a foil for the PC's. He's also available as a Deus Ex Machina when necessary (or, for the younger generation, a Mc Guffin).

As such, he'll probably act in whatever way makes the story go forward.

Xykon/RC are big enough in the story to generate new stories by their emergent personalities.

[Dunesen]

He's a foil for the PC's. He's also available as a Deus Ex Machina when necessary (or, for the younger generation, a Mc Guffin).

As such, he'll probably act in whatever way makes the story go forward.

Xykon/RC are big enough in the story to generate new stories by their emergent personalities.

Not quite the same thing: Deus Ex Machina is a resolution to any problem the protagonist has that is not appropriately built up in-universe. Metaphorically, the Hand of God reaches down and sets things right. The Oracle fits that bill as he can provide information in a quicker and more reliable way than the team would otherwise gather by its own devices (and because his gift is literally from a goddess).

A McGuffin is something that spurs people to action, while the actual nature of the item in question is irrelevent. The Gates are McGuffins because all that really matters to the plot is that the villains want control of them and the heroes are trying to stop them. You could get almost the exact same story from OotS in a spy thriller by substituting the Gates with secret technology or nuclear weapons. One side wants it, the other side has to stop them.

But the Oracle goes beyond a simple NPC character, since the last two strips have given the indication (or at least, we the readers have inferred it) that he's involved with a group that may have a some impact on the greater story.

[Selene]

That's certainly a much more succinct definition than mine... it holds up pretty well, although I think you'd have to allow for a "precursor" clause for the Order of the Scribble, who were said to have had "a great campaign" ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), but most of them are dead.

Yeah, I would say that they were the PCs from the previous campaign.

What generation uses McGuffin? I've never heard it before, so I guess it must be one younger than mine. Thanks for the explanation, Dunesen. :smallsmile:

To me, DEM, is Stephen King's The Stand. The Hand of God literally reaches down from the sky and blows up the missile at the end of the book (and the movie). That right there is some serious DEM. LOL. I forgive him his dud ending, though.

[Remirach]

Something he can't see, or is not allowed to...

I've never even thought of that. The raises a lot of possibilities.
Maybe that's part of the reason he NEEDED a money back guarantee? Although, he hasn't mentioned any limitations yet (not that he WOULD).


It's the simplest explanation, easily, but not the most fun. Remember, the demon cockroaches can count at least nine sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) to this equation. If we have Team Evil as one (not Xykon and Redcloak seperately), the Order as two, and the Linear Guild as three, we're still left with six to account for. The VIP coming in could be a fourth, but if the Oracle is looking out for himself, that makes five.
Actually the VIP doesn't need to be related to the "boss" the Oracle gives greeting to. So if you're assuming they're a separate side as well, that'd be six side by your count -- and personally I do tend to separate Redcloak and Xykon on the "side" issue. They're "allies," but they have mutually conflicting objectives, although Xykon doesn't know that yet.


All assuming that the 9+ sides will get revealed in the course of the comic, which I think is a pretty safe bet (why tease us otherwise?).
I think Sabine's Overlords are very likely another one of the sides mentioned, although what they're DOING yet is completely unknown. But they know about the Gates (thanks to Sabine), and they apparently survived the Snarl's wave o' destruction last time it got freed, so they'd have no fear of it this time around either. (Unless the Giant goofed on Sabine's age in the NCftPB bonus strip, which is also possible).


And in regards to how he deals with the guys that resurrected him, friendliness doesn't mean he's their friend. Ever had a really nice waitress or cashier that you knew didn't care about you? Customer service and all (though the Oracle doesn't really care about that with his regular customers).
But they weren't his customers. He was THEIR customer.


Ever since SoD came out I was expecting maybe some background on the Linear Guild. But the Oracle would be more fun.
I was thinking it'd either be the LG or the Order of the Scribble. But the Oracle... yeah, that does sound more fun.


I don't think the Oracle is currently an important enough character to get a full on face-turn or redemption or anything. If it turns out he has his own scheme going regarding the gates he'll probably still be looking out for himself up to the end.
Well if we never see him without his powers, it's a bit hard to know whether or not they contributed to his current personality, and that was the only real scenario that first came to mind. Although there is flashback potential, come to think of it.



I'm not sure about the mechanics of all this, but it seems the gods exert influence on the physical realm, which indicates some proximity to it. If one of them is helping a follower on the physical plane, wouldn't they be close enough to the Snarl to be undone if it breaks out at that moment?

I'm just speculating here.
But every time we've seen the gods help their followers, they've always been able to do it from their own plane. Being able to exert an influence doesn't mean they're actually physically closer. It's a completely different plane of existence, which to me would indicate a much greater level of separation than, say, a state boundary.


Working on the idea that the Oracle can only observe a limited amount of a person's life, he might have brushed Redcloak off as an underling. A high-leveled one, but an underling nonetheless.
Possible, but Xykon's been working on the same plan for almost as long as Redcloak has. He doesn't know the FULL details of the plot, but he does know about the Gates and the Snarl.


Everyone has their own angle, how many people are playing each other?
I know the question's rhetorical, but I think there's an element of this in Sabine and Nale's current arrangement... and that Sabine's starting to have a sort of conflicted loyalty. "Do you love him?" "Yes. I mean, I think so. I mean... it's complicated." And yet she lies to him about her reasons for visiting the Lower Planes. And she's only his concubine because she was ordered to be. As to everyone else, guess we'll just have to wait and see.


I definitely think it would be funny/awesome if Ekdy turns out to have a role in all this. The Giant wouldn't even have to reference SoD, just say "Here's another guy Xykon killed."

But why can't Xyklon be involved in this as well? His tagline was "The Consequential." Consequential as in "the result of something", or consequential as in "of importance"?

Think about it, won't you?
I thought it was meant to be ironic: "consequential" as in "please pay attention to me and take me seriously, oh please!"" Eugene and the other consider him of such little worth they don't even fight him, and the depressed Xyklon, apparently used to this kind of behavior, just sighs and asks for the ice cream.

But maybe he could be STRONGER now...! Yeah, Xyklon being around would be a hoot.



Or the kobold Redcloak and another town of kobolds, trying to figure out how to open the gate.
Bunch of kobolds trying to fight their way through a dungeon full of the world's toughest monsters? Where's their firepower?

[Warren Dew]

What generation uses McGuffin? I've never heard it before, so I guess it must be one younger than mine.

Well, Alfred Hitchcock seems to have introduced the term, and he explained it in 1939. I'm not sure it's a generational thing....

[Selene]

Well, Alfred Hitchcock seems to have introduced the term, and he explained it in 1939. I'm not sure it's a generational thing....

Alfred Hitchcock? Ok, I'm definitely not that old. LOL.

[hamishspence]

might be old, but its been repeated. the term is still routinely used.

[Selene]

Sorry, still never heard of it.

[Underground]

Hooray ! An alignment discussion !

Those always make sense and are short and without big argument.

I would say the Oracle is someone who has discovered certain skills of himself, and managed to get a safe position. He seems to be quite resourceful and efficient, but at the same time relaxed. He seems to be quite sarcastic as well.

Alignment ? Pick your favorite ! I'd say neutral, since I fail to see any specific trait.

[Dunesen]

Actually the VIP doesn't need to be related to the "boss" the Oracle gives greeting to. So if you're assuming they're a separate side as well, that'd be six side by your count -- and personally I do tend to separate Redcloak and Xykon on the "side" issue. They're "allies," but they have myutually conflicting objectives, although Xykon doesn't know that yet.

True enough, true enough. For simplicity some people have been thinking the VIP (which I guess we won't see, since the focus is back with Roy's body rather than Roy's spirit) would be related to the guys that resurrected the Oracle, though if they have 'teleport' at their disposal, why fly in...?

And,

SoD shows Xykon doesn't fully trust Redcloak, even if he's unaware of any specifics.


I think Sabine's Overlords are very likely another one of the sides mentioned, although what they're DOING yet is completely unknown. But they know about the Gates (thanks to Sabine), and they apparently survived the Snarl's wave o' destruction last time it got freed, so they'd have no fear of it this time around either. (Unless the Giant goofed on Sabine's age in the NCftPB bonus strip, which is also possible).

Don't have any of the trades on hand, like I mentioned, so I forget for sure, but Sabine isn't older than the current universe, is she? Perhaps her Overlords are just creations within this current world like all the mortals.

And that definitely is another side, I forgot about it completely.


But they weren't his customers. He was THEIR customer.

You sure? :smallwink: Like I said, if he tricked them into thinking they needed him, he might be calling some shots.


I was thinking it'd either be the LG or the Order of the Scribble. But the Oracle... yeah, that does sound more fun.

We've already seen the Scribble, unless there's things essential to the plot that Shojo didn't know/didn't share. An entire book in Scribble might be interesting, though maybe it would take longer since the Giant can't just use Photoshop and the saved poses he has for the regular strip.


Well if we never see him without his powers, it's a bit hard to know whether or not they contributed to his current personality, and that was the only real scenario that first came to mind. Although there is flashback potential, come to think of it.

Yeah, we don't know what he was like before, but I'm guessing he was something of a jerk (isn't that what this thread was originally about? :smalltongue:)


Possible, but Xykon's been working on the same plan for almost as long as Redcloak has. He doesn't know the FULL details of the plot, but he does know about the Gates and the Snarl.

Xykon is only interested in using the Snarl to conquer the world. If that's all the Oracle knows about, Tiamat won't know any more via him. It's all about what she's learned in her world, either from watching Redcloak or working with/against The Dark One.


I know the question's rhetorical, but I think there's an element of this in Sabine and Nale's current arrangement... and that Sabine's starting to have a sort of conflicted loyalty. "Do you love him?" "Yes. I mean, I think so. I mean... it's complicated." And yet she lies to him about her reasons for visiting the Lower Planes. And she's only his concubine because she was ordered to be. As to everyone else, guess we'll just have to wait and see.

The Sabine/Nale connection could be its own thread. In the first fight against the LG way back in Dungeon Crawling Fools she says she's concubine AND advisor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) She's grooming him, in a way.



Bunch of kobolds trying to fight their way through a dungeon full of the world's toughest monsters? Where's their firepower?

Duh, the kobold Redcloak. Or maybe it's Muavecloak. He leads a group of high-level kobold adventurers (Yokyok was with them briefly, until he heard of his father's death) through the dungeon, fighting monsters and uncovering traps.

It'll be the next prequel :smallwink:

And for Selene: The term McGuffin is most famously attributed to Alfred Hitchcock, but he didn't necessarily create it.

[Remirach]

True enough, true enough. For simplicity some people have been thinking the VIP (which I guess we won't see, since the focus is back with Roy's body rather than Roy's spirit) would be related to the guys that resurrected the Oracle, though if they have 'teleport' at their disposal, why fly in...?
It's more dramatic? But yeah, I think they're unrelated groups.

And,

SoD shows Xykon doesn't fully trust Redcloak, even if he's unaware of any specifics.
Yeah. Although I don't get the vibe he's even really suspecting anything at all, just covering his bases. He probably trusts Redcloak more after the end of SoD (he says as much), since he seems to have utterly beaten the goblin into submission by that point.

Don't have any of the trades on hand, like I mentioned, so I forget for sure, but Sabine isn't older than the current universe, is she? Perhaps her Overlords are just creations within this current world like all the mortals.
During the "Crayons of Time" sequence, Lord Shojo says World 2.0 was created "a thousand years and more" ago, and we know that the current year is 1184. But in the bonus strip, Sabine says she hadn't seen her old beau in over 2000 years. So it implies that the beings of the Lower Planes, like the gods of the other three pantheons, weren't destroyed when the Snarl made its move.


You sure? :smallwink: Like I said, if he tricked them into thinking they needed him, he might be calling some shots.
I don't really get that vibe, but I can't prove you're wrong.


We've already seen the Scribble, unless there's things essential to the plot that Shojo didn't know/didn't share. An entire book in Scribble might be interesting, though maybe it would take longer since the Giant can't just use Photoshop and the saved poses he has for the regular strip.
He could do it in regular stick-verse the way Lirian and Dorukan were in SoD. A whole prequel of crayon drawings, though, that would be pretty neat, I hadn't even thought of that aspect of it. But yeah, I don't know if there would be enough material to qualify for a prequel. Unless that battle with Baron Pineapple was really epic.



Xykon is only interested in using the Snarl to conquer the world. If that's all the Oracle knows about, Tiamat won't know any more via him. It's all about what she's learned in her world, either from watching Redcloak or working with/against The Dark One.
I guess... but there's also what Roy's told (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) the Oracle: that Xykon's trying to control the Gates. If Tiamat knows what the Oracle knows, she knows Xykon's trying to control the Gates, so unless she doesn't know what the Gates are about, she'd have to know he's trying to mess with the Snarl.


The Sabine/Nale connection could be its own thread. In the first fight against the LG way back in Dungeon Crawling Fools she says she's concubine AND advisor. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) She's grooming him, in a way.
She does seem to be grooming him, but she lies to him, and she sleeps around when she's gone for only a few hours. She says she loves him, but it's complicated. I can't help but find their relationship kind of fascinating because I have no idea what angle Sabine's playing, but the two of them actually seem attached to each other despite all their faults. But I guess this is off-topic for this thread.



Duh, the kobold Redcloak. Or maybe it's Muavecloak.
Can we call him the Mauve Avenger?


He leads a group of high-level kobold adventurers (Yokyok was with them briefly, until he heard of his father's death) through the dungeon, fighting monsters and uncovering traps.
Those are some bad-ass kobolds!

[Dunesen]

Yeah. Although I don't get the vibe he's even really suspecting anything at all, just covering his bases. He probably trusts Redcloak more after the end of SoD (he says as much), since he seems to have utterly beaten the goblin into submission by that point.

Which is why I'm hoping for Redcloak to give Xykon what's coming to him some day.


During the "Crayons of Time" sequence, Lord Shojo says World 2.0 was created "a thousand years and more" ago, and we know that the current year is 1184. But in the bonus strip, Sabine says she hadn't seen her old beau in over 2000 years. So it implies that the beings of the Lower Planes, like the gods of the other three pantheons, weren't destroyed when the Snarl made its move.

OK, I knew it was 1184, but I didn't know Sabine's age.


I don't really get that vibe, but I can't prove you're wrong.

So I must be right :smallbiggrin:


He could do it in regular stick-verse the way Lirian and Dorukan were in SoD. A whole prequel of crayon drawings, though, that would be pretty neat, I hadn't even thought of that aspect of it. But yeah, I don't know if there would be enough material to qualify for a prequel. Unless that battle with Baron Pineapple was really epic.

That's kind of what I figure, we've seen all about them we need to.



I guess... but there's also what Roy's told (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) the Oracle: that Xykon's trying to control the Gates. If Tiamat knows what the Oracle knows, she knows Xykon's trying to control the Gates, so unless she doesn't know what the Gates are about, she'd have to know he's trying to mess with the Snarl.

But Xykon isn't working for the Dark One and doesn't know about Redcloak's real plans, so even though Tiamat most certainly knows about Xykon's plans, it doesn't lead to her knowing about Redcloak's.



She does seem to be grooming him, but she lies to him, and she sleeps around when she's gone for only a few hours. She says she loves him, but it's complicated. I can't help but find their relationship kind of fascinating because I have no idea what angle Sabine's playing, but the two of them actually seem attached to each other despite all their faults. But I guess this is off-topic for this thread.

Which is why I'm more realistically expecting the next prequel to focus on the LG, among any others.



Can we call him the Mauve Avenger?

What's he avenging?


Those are some bad-ass kobolds!

Which is why they get the next prequel :smalltongue:

[Remirach]

Which is why I'm hoping for Redcloak to give Xykon what's coming to him some day.
Lord, yes, I'm with you there. I don't know if he'll get to do it, though. The way the plot is set up, it seems most appropriate that Roy get the final honors, with Redcloak at best being instrumental in bringing Xykon down. (Bonus points if he does it in a fashion that's a brutal rebuttal to the "force over tactics" speech Xykon gave Dorukan.)

OK, I knew it was 1184, but I didn't know Sabine's age.
I sure hope that gets explained. It could as easily just be an error in phrasing (like she meant to say two centuries and not millenia.) But if it isn't... if the Lower Planes weren't destroyed, does the same go for the upper planes? Are there beings in Celestia from world 1.0 who died before the Snarl struck?


So I must be right :smallbiggrin:
:smallyuk: :smallwink: :smallamused:

Hah! You're cute. I wish you well in your current endeavors, especially given your current listed location.


But Xykon isn't working for the Dark One and doesn't know about Redcloak's real plans, so even though Tiamat most certainly knows about Xykon's plans, it doesn't lead to her knowing about Redcloak's.
Yeah but if she knows about the Gates (which she might not, although that seems... somewhat unlikely), she knows the Snarl's involved, and where the Snarl's involved, badness is sure to follow. None of the gods (except the crazy purple one) want anyone mucking around with that thing unless they're trying to fix the holes, which Xykon most assuredly isn't. So even if she doesn't know the details, knowing the Snarl's involved should be enough to make her want to exert some kind of influence. Which she may well be doing.

...I've almost lost the train of this argument by now. I wish we could switch to a threaded post mode.


Which is why I'm more realistically expecting the next prequel to focus on the LG, among any others.
I could see it, but it seems like all the relevant stuff could just as easily play out in the comic itself.


What's he avenging?
Well if he's the kobold Redcloak, he's avenging all the slain kobolds who were killed for mere XP.


Which is why they get the next prequel :smalltongue:
what should he call it?

[Dunesen]

Lord, yes, I'm with you there. I don't know if he'll get to do it, though. The way the plot is set up, it seems most appropriate that Roy get the final honors, with Redcloak at best being instrumental in bringing Xykon down. (Bonus points if he does it in a fashion that's a brutal rebuttal to the "force over tactics" speech Xykon gave Dorukan.)

Redcloak turning on Xykon is a very strong possibility, but the final blow will most certainly come from Roy. It's just a question if Redcloak turns early enough that he gets killed and dies some kind of noble (if not hero's) death, or if he'll turn at the last moment, save Roy and the rest of the Order, and escape to live at the end of the series.

I'd prefer the latter.


I sure hope that gets explained. It could as easily just be an error in phrasing (like she meant to say two centuries and not millenia.) But if it isn't... if the Lower Planes weren't destroyed, does the same go for the upper planes? Are there beings in Celestia from world 1.0 who died before the Snarl struck?

If there are, they'd be way up on the mountain by now, so it's unlikely Roy will get to meet any of them before he gets rezzed.


:smallyuk: :smallwink: :smallamused:

Hah! You're cute. I wish you well in your current endeavors, especially given your current listed location.

:smallredface: Now I'm blushing.


Yeah but if she knows about the Gates (which she might not, although that seems... somewhat unlikely), she knows the Snarl's involved, and where the Snarl's involved, badness is sure to follow. None of the gods (except the crazy purple one) want anyone mucking around with that thing unless they're trying to fix the holes, which Xykon most assuredly isn't. So even if she doesn't know the details, knowing the Snarl's involved should be enough to make her want to exert some kind of influence. Which she may well be doing.

...I've almost lost the train of this argument by now. I wish we could switch to a threaded post mode.

My basic thoughts:

1) Tiamat must know about the gates. I'd be surprised if any of the gods don't know about them. Most likely they've taken vows of non-interference, because so far three have been destroyed due to outsider meddling, and the gods are very much concerned about accidently making things worse with their phenomenal power.

2) Tiamat knows about Xykon's plans, knows he wants to conquer the world. She's aware of Redcloak's status as TDO's cleric.

3) I'm not going to try to guess if Tiamat knows about TDO's actual plans, or that Redcloak is trying to fulfill them for him. If she doesn't, then she doesn't. But if she does, it opens all the questions on if she's working with or against TDO, or is doing nothing. And if she's working with him, is she going to betray him or do they have a pact to get both goblins and kobolds on better standing?

Presumably, it will all be revealed.


I could see it, but it seems like all the relevant stuff could just as easily play out in the comic itself.

True, true. Then again, some of the stuff in the two prequels already could have just been introduced in the strip. Haley's upcoming confrontation with the Thieves Guild could be explained in a strip or two.

Now if the next prequel actually focused on the gods, that'd be a bit trickier to work into the strip...


Well if he's the kobold Redcloak, he's avenging all the slain kobolds who were killed for mere XP.

Works for me.


what should he call it?

I'll have an answer later today. It's gotta be something Piers Anthony-level punny. (Does 'kobold' rhyme with cold or walled?)

[Eric]

[spoiler]I'll have an answer later today. It's gotta be something Piers Anthony-level punny. (Does 'kobold' rhyme with cold or walled?)


How about "Cop Hold Of This" (Kobold of this)?

[Dunesen]

How about "Cop Hold Of This" (Kobold of this)?

??? (what does that mean?)

So it rhymes with "hold"?

[Manga Shoggoth]

??? (what does that mean?)

So it rhymes with "hold"?

"Cop hold of" means "get hold of" - it is UK slang.

From World Wide Words (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cop2.htm):


The most probable explanation is that it comes from the slang verb cop, meaning “to seize”, originally a dialect term of northern England which by the beginning of the nineteenth century was known throughout the country. This can be followed back through the French caper to the Latin capere, “to seize, take”, from which we also get our capture.

[Dunesen]

what should he call it?

Stone Kobold Justice
Baby, It's Kobold Outside
Give Me that Kobold-Time Religion
Grumpy Kobold Men
The Brave and the Kobold (eh, too easy)
The Kobold and the Beautiful (again, too easy)
The Kobold Man and the Sea
No Country for Kobold Men (that one actually makes sense...)

More to come...