4e Counterspelling

[Voodzik]

Ok, I was arguing with a friend of mine about 4e (I love it, he does not) and one of his complaints was that countercasting was totally gone. And I realized daggummit, he was right. And so I add here the closest thing I can think of: a counterspell for 4e, as a ritual.

So here it is, tell me if you think it's horribly broken or what.

Counterspell Wizard Utility 5
By unleashing one of your own potent magics in time with an enemy, you effectively neutralize their spell
Arcane
Full Action Ranged 10


When you use this abilityYou lose the use of a power for that day, 1 daily power, 1 encounter power, or 2 at will powers. You must lose the powers in that order; you cannot lose an encounter power if you still have a daily power or an at will power if you still have an encounter power.

You and the caster roll 1d10+1/2 your character level. If the caster rolls higher, the spell activates fully and the charge is spent without effect. If you roll higher the spell is countered. Ignore any effects or damage that would have resulted. In short, it is as if the caster had never cast the spell.

If the d10 result is a tie before modifiers are added, such as both rolling a 6, the spell and counterspell bounce off of each other and both you and the caster are hit with magical backlash, recieving damage. Refer to the chart below to see how much damage is taken

d10 tied number Damage
1-3 1d6+1/2 your character level
4-6 1d8+1/2 your character level
7-9 1d10+1/2 your character level
10 1d12+1/2 your character level

SPECIAL: This spell REQUIRES the ability to both move freely and talk to spend a charge. This is not affected by abilities that might otherwise allow you to cast a spell without one or both of those conditions.

[Goober4473]

Using a charge should cost you the use of one power of the same type or worse (daily > encounter > at-will) of the same level or lower than the spell being countered. Otherwise it's amazingly overpowered.

Also, a d10? So a level 5 fighter that took ritual casting can counter a level 29 Daily of an archmage wizard as often as not? Should probably be a level check of some sort, with a bonus if you belong to an arcane class.

Also, how does it affect monsters?

[Voodzik]

Made some edits. Made it cost more and tightened the restrictions to using it, but gave a couple more charges per ritual. Also added a level bonus to the d10 roll.

[Timeras]

I like the idea but as it is, every ritual caster who knows this ritual would always be ready to counter. He would just repeat the ritual every time his charges are spent.

So any charges left over should dissipate after 24 hours. That way characters will perform the ritual when they plan to attack the evil wizard or warlock or have a reason to suspect they will be attacked by one.

Also, I wouldn´t make it an immediate interrupt. I would have the character ready an action to counter spells. Otherwise a charcter wouldn´t even have to think about this, any spells that your opponents cast will be affected.

I think countering a spell shouldn´t require 2 (or 3 if you count the one for performing the ritual) successfull checks. Since you must have made preparations for this, your chance to counter a spell should be better. So the Arcana check would be enough.
If you used the first 2 changes I suggested you might actually make this work without a check since the character has spent material (that might be wasted if he doesn´t use this) an readied an action. This should be enough of a drawback.

Or you could make Counterspell a daily power granted by a feature only available to wizards and warlocks.

[Voodzik]

I like the idea but as it is, every ritual caster who knows this ritual would always be ready to counter. He would just repeat the ritual every time his charges are spent.

So any charges left over should dissipate after 24 hours. That way characters will perform the ritual when they plan to attack the evil wizard or warlock or have a reason to suspect they will be attacked by one.

Also, I wouldn´t make it an immediate interrupt. I would have the character ready an action to counter spells. Otherwise a charcter wouldn´t even have to think about this, any spells that your opponents cast will be affected.

I think countering a spell shouldn´t require 2 (or 3 if you count the one for performing the ritual) successfull checks. Since you must have made preparations for this, your chance to counter a spell should be better. So the Arcana check would be enough.
If you used the first 2 changes I suggested you might actually make this work without a check since the character has spent material (that might be wasted if he doesn´t use this) an readied an action. This should be enough of a drawback.

Or you could make Counterspell a daily power granted by a feature only available to wizards and warlocks.

I actually like the three-check system...the idea being that every spell cast requires you to A: Have the ritual ready B: Interrupt the spell and C: Do it right once you try. Also I just love the magical backlash idea.

I made it an immediate interrupt so that you could avoid having to announce it to the whole known world. If you decided to hold off your action and you were a caster, under the system your proposing it would be pretty easy to tell what you were going to do, and DM's and other players in PVP could act accordingly.

I agree though, that a 24hr time limit is probably the best idea.

[Timeras]

I actually like the three-check system...the idea being that every spell cast requires you to A: Have the ritual ready B: Interrupt the spell and C: Do it right once you try. Also I just love the magical backlash idea.

I just think that most times it just wouldn´t be worth the trouble. You spend money for the material component and you lose one action for what? A probability of less than 50% to counter a spell and a small chance that the result is worse than what you were trying to prevent.



I made it an immediate interrupt so that you could avoid having to announce it to the whole known world. If you decided to hold off your action and you were a caster, under the system your proposing it would be pretty easy to tell what you were going to do, and DM's and other players in PVP could act accordingly.


I think it´s just too easy if you don´t have to care about countering, since it will kick in whenever needed.
If someone readies an action, every intelligent creature will see that he is waiting for something. That´s just realistic. But noone will know what he is waiting for. He might be waiting for an enemy to come within reach of his attack or for one of his allies to do semething that´s been planned before. Even if the enemy caster correctly guesses what you are up to, it has been a success of sorts, because he doesn´t cast a spell and you keep your charge.
And the DM would know that you performed the ritual anyway. So he has to have the enemy caster react according to what that NPC can see.

I´ve never done PVP in Pen And Paper but if I readied an action in such a situation, I would simply say "Ready action" and write the details down.

[RTGoodman]

Is there any particular reason for making this a Ritual? And why did you use the "charges" mechanic that you used? It just seems that it doesn't really fit in with anything else in 4E that I can see. I'd almost just suggest that, if you really want a Counterspell mechanic, something like this:

Counterspell
Wizard Utility 10 (or maybe 16)
You see your opponent preparing to lash out with a mighty spell, and you use your own magic briefly to block his arcane abilities.
Encounter * Arcane
Immediate Interrupt; Ranged 10
Target: One creature preparing to use an ability or power with the Arcane descriptor.
Attack: Int vs. Will

Hit: The target takes 1d10 psychic damage and target's power has no effect (not even effects that occur on a Miss), but the power or ability is considered used. (For example, if the counterspelled power is an Encounter power, it cannot be used again in this encounter. If the counterspelled power was a Daily ability, it cannot be used again today.)
Miss: The target takes damage equal to your Wis modifier but is still free to cast its spell.
Special: If you use this power against a creature preparing to use a power or ability that does not have the Arcane descriptor, it has no effect and your use of this power is used up for the current encounter.

[Voodzik]

Is there any particular reason for making this a Ritual? And why did you use the "charges" mechanic that you used?

Because I felt that any other way made it too hard and too easy to get. Too hard, because I feel any spellcaster (or ritual user, I guess) should have enough knowledge of magic to enact a counterspell while at the same time making it a power learned by your class gives you the ability at too little cost. I felt that counterspelling should be something deeply considered, even agonized over before using, not something you just pick up on the fly.

[DracoDei]

But now that you have the character level figuring in you need to specify WHICH die you use to reference the chart in case the sums are tied.

[Voodzik]

OK, took everybody's comments on board and made some major edits.

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that while I am naturally argumentative, and I know i come off as kind of a jackass, I appreciate the comments of everyone who cared enough to make them. Thanks for the comments and all the good constructive criticizm I've been recieving.

[DracoDei]

While I don't have the highest CHA score in the world myself (I traded 2 for 1 for an extra point of INT... which was already my high stat :smallbiggrin: ) I certainly did NOT notice any rudeness on your part in this thread.

[Alchemistmerlin]

This seems just as needlessly complicated as 3.5e counterspelling.

The whole point that I was trying to make, Voodzik, is that in all the various D&D novels counterspelling is very common. In pitched wizard battles they throw and deflect spells back and forth and it is all quite impressive and interesting.

In D&D it, instead, is a math problem. An expensive, time consuming, and irritating math problem that discourages the player from trying to be heroic and epic. Rather, it encourages them to just take the spell in the face and hope they have more HP than the enemy does.

Yours has the disadvantage of being expensive etc. rtg0922's has the disadvantage of forcing the player to prep an action and just sit, waiting, for the enemy to cast something.

And besides, homeruling it doesn't change the fact that I dislike 4e for not fixing it in the first place. :smallyuk:

[Yakk]

Counterspell
Wizard Utility 10
You see your opponent preparing to lash out with a mighty spell, and you use your own magic briefly to block his arcane abilities.
Encounter + Arcane
Immediate Interrupt + Ranged 10
Target: One creature preparing to use an ability or power with the Arcane descriptor.
Attack: Int vs. Will
Special: Defender gets a +5 to Defense against this power if they are using a daily power.
Hit: The target's action is consumed, and the ability or power does not go off, and a secondary attack occurs. The counterspell power is also not consumed.
Effect: You lose your next Standard action.
Secondary Attack: Int vs. Will
Special: Defender gets a +5 to defense against this power if they are using a daily power.
Hit: The power the defender attempted to use is considered used. If the power being targeted was not an at-will power, counterspell is also considered used.

...

How is that for a Counterspell power?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Counterspell
Wizard Utility 10
You see your opponent preparing to lash out with a mighty spell, and you use your own magic briefly to block his arcane abilities.
Encounter + Arcane
Immediate Interrupt + Ranged 10
Target: One creature preparing to use an ability or power with the Arcane descriptor.
Attack: Int vs. Will
Special: Defender gets a +5 to Defense against this power if they are using a daily power.
Hit: The target's action is consumed, and the ability or power does not go off, and a secondary attack occurs. The counterspell power is also not consumed.
Effect: You lose your next Standard action.
Secondary Attack: Int vs. Will
Special: Defender gets a +5 to defense against this power if they are using a daily power.
Hit: The power the defender attempted to use is considered used. If the power being targeted was not an at-will power, counterspell is also considered used.

...

How is that for a Counterspell power?


Now that, that I like a lot.

Bravo.

[Voodzik]

Alright, after reading the criticism here and getting a lecture from Alchemistmerlin, I've edited it into a utility power. I've currently got it here as essentially at will, since I feel that it should still be useable more than once per encounter. It's got a fifty percent success rate now (assuming equal levels on the part of the casters) and a decent chance of backfiring, so that should balance things. I also added level based damage modifiers, so even a 30th level archmage has to worry about that backlash :smallbiggrin:

[kc0bbq]

Alright, after reading the criticism here and getting a lecture from Alchemistmerlin, I've edited it into a utility power. I've currently got it here as essentially at will, since I feel that it should still be useable more than once per encounter. It's got a fifty percent success rate now (assuming equal levels on the part of the casters) and a decent chance of backfiring, so that should balance things. I also added level based damage modifiers, so even a 30th level archmage has to worry about that backlash :smallbiggrin:
At will makes it broken. Seriously broken. An at will Immediate Interrupt can be used once per turn. Why would anyone take anything else at 10th level? One wizard is enough to potentially shut down every caster in the fight with no cost to them. What's a few HP when you're single handedly rendering most arcane sourced opponents moot, especially if you optimize towards this?

[TheEmerged]

Once I get a better handle on the new mechanics, I'm looking into making it a function of the Arcana skill. Very theoretical at this moment, I haven't sorted out what to do about non-casters that end up training Arcana or what cost to associate with using the ability.