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Ned the undead
2008-06-28, 11:47 PM
I know it's way early, but what do think they might add/fix/remove/improve/elaborate on in 4.5 edtion?

Deepblue706
2008-06-28, 11:57 PM
4.5E is obviously going to be a beach ball.

TheOOB
2008-06-29, 12:09 AM
WotC is quoted as saying there won't be a 4.5...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-29, 12:13 AM
No, no...I think Deepblue is right. 4.5 is a beach ball.

Here's a sneak preview:

http://www.2beachballs.com/inflatable_beach_ball.jpg

Of course, in the actual 4.5 Player's Handbook, each segment will be a different color, although there will be later splatbooks that allow for a variety of alternating colors or additional color choices.

I've also heard rumors of a third party release of Topless Beach Volleyball: Get the most out of your 18 Charisma, but that could just be hearsay.

Hallavast
2008-06-29, 12:18 AM
WotC is quoted as saying there won't be a 4.5...

WotC says a lot of things. However, I will concede that the 4.5 will not be labeled "4.5". :smallannoyed:


Here's a sneak preview: . . . .

Intruiging...

EvilElitest
2008-06-29, 12:26 AM
IF it does come out, it will take at least five years before the need is great enough for WotC to care
from
EE

The Necroswanso
2008-06-29, 12:27 AM
I doubt there will be. What with all the online stuff they're working on, and having posted erratta what, a week after release..... I don't see it. It would be just..... bad on every scale.

Hallavast
2008-06-29, 12:33 AM
It would be just..... bad on every scale.

I agree. However, I don't really see why this will deter them. I mean, you could say something about their responsibility to their shareholders and doing something like that would be bad for business in the long run, but I think a lot of people who go out and buy new books from WotC don't really care that they don't need the new books. I look at WotC's business model in the past about things like D&D minis and MtG, and I could very well see them publishing a new set of core books for 4e and not calling them 4.5. It's rather easy to justify if you don't think about it. For example, they might argue something to the effect of "well not everyone subscribes to our online content anyway... so why not 'reach out' to those players who don't". Or something like that.

JadedDM
2008-06-29, 01:04 AM
WotC was also quoted that there were no plans at all for a fourth edition, as early as three months before they announced the release date of 4E.

Crow
2008-06-29, 01:26 AM
WotC was also quoted that there were no plans at all for a fourth edition, as early as three months before they announced the release date of 4E.

I was waiting for somebody to mention this. I didn't want to be the one. Personally, I can't wait to see 4.5.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-29, 05:58 AM
WotC is quoted as saying there won't be a 4.5...

WOTC is also quoted as saying that 4E would end world hunger.

You're going to believe everything people say?

marjan
2008-06-29, 06:25 AM
WOTC is also quoted as saying that 4E would end world hunger.

You're going to believe everything people say?

Are you hungry?

Kurald Galain
2008-06-29, 06:53 AM
Are you hungry?

Now that you mention it, no!

Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

EvilElitest
2008-06-29, 08:47 AM
WOTC is also quoted as saying that 4E would end world hunger.

You're going to believe everything people say?

They also promised taht 3.5 would fix all the problems with 3E
from
EE

Bayar
2008-06-29, 10:02 AM
WotC is quoted as saying there won't be a 4.5...

So, they will release 5th edition instead, right ?

Daosus
2008-06-29, 11:05 AM
I think 4.5 is up in the air. Not really because I trust WotC to follow through on their promise of no 4.5 (and really, they could release 4Ev2 or 4.6 or whatever), but because I think their model of releasing core rulebooks every year somewhat precludes the need to release constant upgrades. Then again, I wouldn't put it past some of the corporate types to release 4.thisonesawesomereally at the least opportune time.

Vortling
2008-06-29, 11:10 AM
There won't be any 4.5, at least not by that name. Their release schedule simply won't work for it. The point of a PHB, DMG and MM a year is twofold. Keep the money rolling in and prevent any need for a 4.5. If they find an issue it will either be errata'd or they'll include the fix in PHBX.

Moff Chumley
2008-06-29, 11:23 AM
Gamers are quoted as being constant kvetchers.

Magnificence
2008-06-29, 11:26 AM
4.5 is coming out in 2012, tieflings will be replaced by half-gremlins and the elf with be seperated into thirty sub-races.

JaxGaret
2008-06-29, 12:17 PM
Saying that each progressive yearly release of PHB/DMG/MM's nomenclature is 4.1, 4.2, etc., 4.5e will be released in 2013, and will include the Groovy, Awesome, and Emo power sources.

drawingfreak
2008-06-29, 12:32 PM
Honestly. Is the game that different from 3.5 that some of you just won't except it?

I think that the fact that they are trying something different is gutsy and honorable. I see a lot of promise in 4E. Now, having yet to play it (because all of my friends are away on vacation :smallannoyed:), my opinion should only be taken half-heartedly.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-29, 12:48 PM
Honestly. Is the game that different from 3.5 that some of you just won't except it?

Wrong thread, dude. This is about whether or not there will be a 4.5, not whether or not people "except" 4.0.

Aside from that, I'd love to see the Emo power source :smallbiggrin:

Crow
2008-06-29, 03:59 PM
So with each new PHB, DMG, and MM will they be appending new material onto the old stuff, or do these books "stand alone"? Meaning: If I stay with what is supposedly 'Core' (not to be confused with the 'Basic', 3 books), am I still going to be reduced to thumbing through 9 different books in two years' time? Or will it still be consolidated in 3 books?

KillianHawkeye
2008-06-29, 04:52 PM
I don't think they'll be reprinting all the current material in every future PHB and DMG and MM. That would be crazy.


WotC was also quoted that there were no plans at all for a fourth edition, as early as three months before they announced the release date of 4E.

This just sounds like plain marketing disinformation to me. As in, they weren't ready for people to know about it yet, so it was their policy to completely deny any knowledge until the official announcement. There's nothing wrong with that. (Everybody's doing it. C'mon, you know you want to! :smallwink:)

Kurald Galain
2008-06-29, 05:21 PM
There's nothing wrong with that. (Everybody's doing it. C'mon, you know you want to! :smallwink:)

I'm not denying anything!!! No!!!

JaxGaret
2008-06-29, 05:55 PM
Aside from that, I'd love to see the Emo power source :smallbiggrin:

Pre-4.5e, you can take a look at the proto-Emo power source in the 4.1 PHB: Shadow. :smallsmile:

Daosus
2008-06-29, 06:07 PM
This just sounds like plain marketing disinformation to me. As in, they weren't ready for people to know about it yet, so it was their policy to completely deny any knowledge until the official announcement. There's nothing wrong with that. (Everybody's doing it. C'mon, you know you want to! :smallwink:)

Yes, and telling people that there won't be 4.5 could also be marketing. Seriously, would you buy into 4E if you knew that you'd have to re-buy the books soon(tm)? For some people that would be a dealbreaker. Of course, I'm not saying anything beyond that "it was just marketing" is a terrible excuse. First off, it was not "marketing" it was a lie, regardless of how you sugar coat it. Second off, they'd keep saying that there isn't going to be 4.5 even if they're planning it, so it really doesn't matter what Wizards says.

Avor
2008-06-29, 07:42 PM
WOTC will do exactly what GW did with 40k, put out a new set of rules that pisses everybody off, wiat 2-3 years, and put out a new edition as a cash grab. They can't force vetern players to buy more extras, but they can force them to buy the core rule book.

Collin152
2008-06-29, 07:57 PM
4.5?
No.
4.01. Followed by 4.02.
Tune in monthly for your new edition revision.

erikun
2008-06-29, 08:05 PM
Well, first they need to release PHB2. And MM2. And the martial, divine, arcane, nature, shadow, psi, ki, and elemental sourcebooks. And the 4e sourcebooks for Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Erberron, and anything else that will sell. Once they have sold out released those supplements, then they can work on releasing 4.5e.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-06-29, 09:24 PM
Well, first they need to release PHB2. And MM2. And the martial, divine, arcane, nature, shadow, psi, ki, and elemental sourcebooks. And the 4e sourcebooks for Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Erberron, and anything else that will sell. Once they have sold out released those supplements, then they can work on releasing 4.5e.

(Bold added) Crap, I hate being antagonistic (and I know you were probably saying that tongue-in-cheek), but this seems like the best thread to say something that has been bothering me (mostly out of boredom, waiting for my books to get here): It is okay for the makers of my favorite game to want to make money.

When 3.5 came out, I didn't have to buy the new books, but I liked the changes they had made, and I wanted to support both WotC and my favorite gaming store.

Likewise, if I find problems in 4e that a '4.5' or new core book solves, then I am likely to pick that up as well. (Heck, if I don't buy stuff, I may not have a hobby store soon!)

The absolute best part about having this game as a hobby is that you simply don't have to buy anything new they put out in order to play the game. If I wanted, I could go back to the ADnD core books I spent like $50 on total (about the cost of one video game), and I could play new variations of the game with just that for years.

As it stands, I spent $90 on the 3.5 core (I only had a 3.0PHB when it came out), and it lasted me 5+ years. That really is not bad, considering a day trip to Six Flags will run you upwards of $40 nowadays (not including gas, yikes). My friends back home didn't want to pay the money, so they started the game at 3.0, never upgraded to 3.5, and they had fun too. I love my 3.5 books though, and will be able to cherry-pick stuff from them to upgrade into a new campaign (or go back to them if I want to play a batman wizard or the like).

In addition, with both Dragon and Dungeon magazines online, I can be constantly getting new material without paying a dime (granted, this is the one feature which you are required to upgrade editions for).

So I kind of wish that people would refrain from accusing people who have been doing good work for DnD for years of being sell outs. Do they want you to buy new books? Of course, or they wouldn't be able to keep making them. But do you have to buy the new books to further your enjoyment of the game? Not in the least.

So I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Hallavast
2008-06-29, 09:39 PM
So I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Ahem, the fuss is about a company marketing a certain product to me and portraying it as the best thing since sliced bread and then only acknowledging the flaws of that system when it's time to sell me another one (or an updated version of it).

I'm all for new content and rules so long as it doesn't overlap or reduce the value of what I've already paid for. Optional splatbooks, dice, minis, sidegame stuff, DM screens, these are all fine since they work with the stuff that I've already purchased. But coming out with a bunch of new rules that are supposed to "make up for all the mistakes in the obsolete version (which we sold you 2 years ago)" kinda pisses me off. It's not my responsibility to support local gaming stores, WotC, or any other company. I could play the game without any of their products. I pay them a courtesy by buying stuff that they sell, and in return I'm given suppliments and ideas for my game. I don't appreciate being insulted by a new release of the game that is not backwards compatible after they've already sold me that "obsolete" material.

Crow
2008-06-29, 09:49 PM
I'm mostly irked by having to buy more books. Not the basic 3 mind you, but the PHBII, MMII, and DMGII, and so on. Hell, I probably wont, now that I think of it. It is just a little bit of a bummer that you can't get the complete core in 3 books anymore. I wish they had condensed the powers section for each class (smaller font or something), and squeezed some more classes in. I mean how many spells could be crammed into the same space in the 3.x handbooks? That's basically all that powers are.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-06-29, 10:20 PM
I'm mostly irked by having to buy more books. Not the basic 3 mind you, but the PHBII, MMII, and DMGII, and so on. Hell, I probably wont, now that I think of it. It is just a little bit of a bummer that you can't get the complete core in 3 books anymore. I wish they had condensed the powers section for each class (smaller font or something), and squeezed some more classes in. I mean how many spells could be crammed into the same space in the 3.x handbooks? That's basically all that powers are.

That's true. ToB had a crapton of stuff very similar to 'powers' and still managed to have a lot of content (though they only had three classes). I'm more looking for something like what Hallavast said too. That's a good argument against the 3.0, 3.5 thing.

I would say that they have to market it as "best thing since sliced bread" because saying, "Our product is okay I guess," doesn't exactly move books. And then people would be saying, "Developers were quoted as saying their product was only OKAY" in defense of their 4e sucks threads. :-p

But I mean that I would like people to judge a product by its merits. (Granted, that runs the risk of all the 3e vs 4e threads). 3rd was a stand-alone system, and didn't need the 3.5 upgrades (which, I think, were mostly inspired by player response to the 3.0 system). I guess it comes down to my believing that people can sell out, but that the developers of the game have not done that here.

People won't accuse Sony of selling out when they come out with a PS4, because system upgrades are good, and if you don't want it, then you have any of 3 (now less expensive) Playstation systems from which to choose. People should accuse Sony of selling out if their system is bugged or total crap, because they have cheated their customers. (Again, I don't want to start a 3e vs 4e thread here, because that wasn't what the OP was about.)

@Hallavast: You are certainly right that you have no obligation to WotC or your local gaming store. I was pointing out that I feel as such, personally, so long as WotC keeps putting out products I enjoy, and my local gaming store remains a friendly gathering place for me and the people who are like me when I was in high school. Both are currently still the case. Heck, I even bought Frostburn, and that was a good supplement (never used it once though, but I read it through like a slightly more expensive than normal hardback novel). And, if all else fails, I probably could've copied down the new Ranger and Barbarian classes out of the 3.5 book at Borders in about 10 minutes and called it a day. :-p

erikun
2008-06-29, 10:42 PM
To be fair, I mean "once they have sold out of their existing stock of 4e books, they will release the 4.5e books." Sorry for the confusion there.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-06-29, 10:45 PM
To be fair, I mean "once they have sold out of their existing stock of 4e books, they will release the 4.5e books." Sorry for the confusion there.

Oh, yikes. Makes a lot more sense now. Well, I wanted to say that anyway. Sorry for using you as an example then. Ima go do something other than reading internet posts until my eyes bleed for awhile. Have a good time either playing or not playing 4e everyone!

erikun
2008-06-29, 10:58 PM
No problem. :smallsmile: While I was a bit annoyed with 3.5 for invalidating half a dozen 3.0 books (I still don't have the 3.5 DMG/MM), I don't have any such bias against 4e. As far as I can see, they're two different systems with seperate good and bad points; I'd like to play more 4e before I form a solid opinion about it.

Ned the undead
2008-06-29, 11:01 PM
I think 4.5 is up in the air. Not really because I trust WotC to follow through on their promise of no 4.5 (and really, they could release 4Ev2 or 4.6 or whatever).

1.....2.......4.6!

Who got it? You can draw from the treasure pile if you got it. Twice.

Hallavast
2008-06-29, 11:09 PM
I would say that they have to market it as "best thing since sliced bread" because saying, "Our product is okay I guess," doesn't exactly move books. And then people would be saying, "Developers were quoted as saying their product was only OKAY" in defense of their 4e sucks threads. :-p

Well, there's a distinction here, I guess. I don't mind them advertising their product as a great thing, but it kinda shows poorly on their credibility when they suddenly change their minds about it when they start marketing the new edition. It's the dramatic change of heart that they seem to always have and never acknowledge that irks me.



But I mean that I would like people to judge a product by its merits. (Granted, that runs the risk of all the 3e vs 4e threads). 3rd was a stand-alone system, and didn't need the 3.5 upgrades (which, I think, were mostly inspired by player response to the 3.0 system). I guess it comes down to my believing that people can sell out, but that the developers of the game have not done that here. Well, judging a product by its merits is always good advice, and you're right; the developers of the game have not sold out yet. The company has, however, fired a good deal of their old developers. It seems that every new edition gets a new team of designers and old ideas and people are never talked about again.



People won't accuse Sony of selling out when they come out with a PS4, because system upgrades are good, and if you don't want it, then you have any of 3 (now less expensive) Playstation systems from which to choose. People should accuse Sony of selling out if their system is bugged or total crap, because they have cheated their customers. (Again, I don't want to start a 3e vs 4e thread here, because that wasn't what the OP was about.)
The PS2 is backwards compatible (as is the PS3 to my knowledge. Correct me if I am mistaken). That kinda goes back to what I said earlier about the new content supplimenting the old (already paid for) content.



And, if all else fails, I probably could've copied down the new Ranger and Barbarian classes out of the 3.5 book at Borders in about 10 minutes and called it a day. :-p
Well I'm not endorsing that. :smalltongue: That would be a tad dishonest. I was simply pointing out the ability of the common gamer to simply create his own system and have just as much fun without buying anything from anybody. I think it was Gygax who said "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."

OneFamiliarFace
2008-06-29, 11:16 PM
The PS2 is backwards compatible (as is the PS3 to my knowledge. Correct me if I am mistaken). That kinda goes back to what I said earlier about the new content supplimenting the old (already paid for) content.
Ya got me there. I forgot about that. I am probably different in actually liking to convert old content.


Well I'm not endorsing that. :smalltongue: That would be a tad dishonest. I was simply pointing out the ability of the common gamer to simply create his own system and have just as much fun without buying anything from anybody. I think it was Gygax who said "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
I love that man.

JadedDM
2008-06-30, 01:07 AM
People won't accuse Sony of selling out when they come out with a PS4, because system upgrades are good, and if you don't want it, then you have any of 3 (now less expensive) Playstation systems from which to choose.

There's no such thing as 'tabletop technology,' though. It still uses dice and paper. A PS3 can do things a PS2 cannot do. Likewise, it could be assumed a PS4 would be capable of more than a PS3. There are things we can do nowadays with video games that would have been impossible ten years ago. But there's nothing you can do in a tabletop game that wouldn't have been possible back then.

If you were to interview someone who worked on 2E, for instance, I'm sure they would not claim they wanted to use the BAB system, but the technology to do so was still 20 years away.

skywalker
2008-06-30, 01:15 AM
(as is the PS3 to my knowledge. Correct me if I am mistaken).

Not entirely true. The PS3 is semi- backwards compatible, as was the PS2 before it. However, the PS2 was a lot more backwards compatible than the PS3 is turning out to be. I won't go into the details in this thread, because really, who wants to hear me try to prove how smart I am about game deck technology? [/offtopic]

I am so intrigued by this emo power source, it is not even funny :smallbiggrin:

horseboy
2008-06-30, 01:54 AM
Saying that each progressive yearly release of PHB/DMG/MM's nomenclature is 4.1, 4.2, etc., 4.5e will be released in 2013, and will include the Groovy, Awesome, and Emo power sources.
You know, back in '95 I made an In Nomine character that worked for "Groovy." It would be nice if they'd get with the times some. :smallwink:

Roderick_BR
2008-06-30, 07:16 AM
I've also heard rumors of a third party release of Topless Beach Volleyball: Get the most out of your 18 Charisma, but that could just be hearsay.
They'll adapt DoA Xtreme Beachball to D&D? :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2008-06-30, 07:22 AM
They'll adapt DoA Xtreme Beachball to D&D? :smalltongue:

Yes. You know that tubby power-player that eats all the time and showers once per month? Well, now you get to see him topless :smallsigh:

ArmorArmadillo
2008-06-30, 01:03 PM
IF it does come out, it will take at least five years before the need is great enough for WotC to care
from
EE
Of course, if they didn't wait 5 years people would complain that they're being forced to waste their money.

Daosus
2008-06-30, 03:46 PM
... 3rd was a stand-alone system, and didn't need the 3.5 upgrades (which, I think, were mostly inspired by player response to the 3.0 system). ...


No, they were inspired by money (http://www.montecook.com/arch_review26.html). I don't particularly dislike WotC for the 3.5 move, but it does mean I'd be a fool to trust them not to do it again.