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stupnick
2008-06-29, 12:06 AM
Deft Strike Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


As stated in the PHB, and above, i have highlighted the part in conflict.

does this attack let a rogue:

Rogue 8 squares away from enemy
Move Action - Move 6 squares towards the enemy
Standard Action - Deft Strike, move two squares towards the enemy and attack the enemy?


Now as stated it doesn't specify, but according to my interpretation, If holding a melee weapon, you can't use this power as the melee version because you do not have a melee target (since nothing in threat range)

This power would be used more for a rogue getting into a flanking position when he already used his movement and wasn't in one. when combined with Artful Dodger it makes the rogue more of a positioning attacker, like they are supposed to be.

Please advise

Goober4473
2008-06-29, 12:11 AM
You can move into range and attack. The move is before the attack, so the fact that the attack is melee doesn't mean you can't use the power to close in before rolling the attack.

Also note that it's a move, not a shift, meaning it provokes opportunity attacks if you move out of a threatened square. So it's not really useful for flanking an enemy you're already adjacent to.

TheOOB
2008-06-29, 12:13 AM
I think you are looking into it a bit too much, you can use deft strike to attack a target 8 squares away. It works really simple:

-Spend standard action and declare use of deft strike
-Move up to 2 squares
-Make an attack

You don't need to target anything the move, the only thing you need to choose a target for is the attack, but you are moving before the attack so it really doesn't matter.

And before you think attacking from 8 squares away is to powerful, remember that rogues can already charge like anyone else, deft strike does let you change your direction to get a better position and use dex for the attack, but you can already attack foes with a melee attack from across the battlefield.

stupnick
2008-06-29, 12:27 AM
ok, but unlike charge, it does allow the rogue to use dex instead of str, and it also doesn't make the rogue grant combat advantage.

So a paladin that is 8 squares, has to move 6, then standard action to charge, granting combat advantage and doesn't get dex to hit or damage, even if he is a cha paladin, who uses charisma to attack.

now the rogue get's to move that 8 squares and attack, using dex, which is super beneficial, and also using dex to daamge, once again majorly beneficial. and doesn't grant combat advantage to the target about to attack him back unlike ANY other class

Goober4473
2008-06-29, 12:38 AM
Charging doesn't make you grant combat advantage.

Dark Tira
2008-06-29, 01:21 AM
now the rogue get's to move that 8 squares and attack, using dex, which is super beneficial, and also using dex to daamge, once again majorly beneficial. and doesn't grant combat advantage to the target about to attack him back unlike ANY other class

I'm not seeing your problem with deft strike. Are you complaining that an at will power is situationally better than a generic charge?

I've used deft strike a lot with my kobold rogue and it's very good for hit-and-run attacks but any rogue who uses it to beat the party tank to the punch is in for an asskicking.

Helgraf
2008-06-29, 02:16 AM
ok, but unlike charge, it does allow the rogue to use dex instead of str, and it also doesn't make the rogue grant combat advantage.

So a paladin that is 8 squares, has to move 6, then standard action to charge, granting combat advantage and doesn't get dex to hit or damage, even if he is a cha paladin, who uses charisma to attack.

now the rogue get's to move that 8 squares and attack, using dex, which is super beneficial, and also using dex to daamge, once again majorly beneficial. and doesn't grant combat advantage to the target about to attack him back unlike ANY other class

Yeah, oddly enough the melee focused striker classes (rogue and ranger) get the most "extra movement" powers to let them, surprise, get into melee more quickly and bring the pain.

Tell me again why this is odd?

stupnick
2008-06-29, 11:16 AM
Ok, so i guess last nght at 1am i was a little out of it. I blanked on the charge for combat advantage, but.... my problem is still with the fact that to use the power you have to be in melee.

You do not have a melee target as defined by the book to use the power, if you aren't next to a target.



Melee
A melee power affects a target (or targets) within
melee reach. Many melee powers require a weapon.
You make a separate attack roll against each target.
Melee weapon: A melee attack power that has a
range of “weapon” allows you to attack a target within
the reach of the weapon you’re wielding. Some weapons
extend your reach beyond adjacent squares.
Example: If you use a “Melee weapon” power while
you’re wielding a dagger, you can attack a target within
1 square of you. If you’re wielding a halberd (a reach
weapon), you can attack a target within 2 squares of
you.


So as stated there in that book, you can only use Deft Strike as a melee power if you have an enemy with in melee reach of your weapon. it does not state that you can use your melee power when you do not have an enemy w/in range.

That would be the same as saying a cleric needing a healing surge as they are all out of there healing, can just use Healing Strike in mid air to grant themself one, which is not possible.

So to use deft strike as stated by the book, you need to be next to a target unless you have melee reach. Then once the power is used, you get to move 2 squares.

potatocubed
2008-06-29, 12:05 PM
The difference between Healing Strike and Deft Strike is that the consequences of Healing Strike are preceded by 'hit' - and so only work if the attack connects - but the extra movement of Deft Strike just happens, even if you swing at air.

The text you quoted does not prohibit using a power if it has no concrete effect or if it has no valid target. So yes, you could use Deft Strike to get an extra two squares of movement every turn without ever making an attack - or you could subsitute your standard action for a move action and go faster.

stupnick
2008-06-29, 01:05 PM
Deft Strike Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade,
or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.

Melee
A melee power affects a target (or targets) within
melee reach. Many melee powers require a weapon.
You make a separate attack roll against each target.
Melee weapon: A melee attack power that has a
range of “weapon” allows you to attack a target within
the reach of the weapon you’re wielding. Some weapons
extend your reach beyond adjacent squares.
Example: If you use a “Melee weapon” power while
you’re wielding a dagger, you can attack a target within
1 square of you. If you’re wielding a halberd (a reach
weapon), you can attack a target within 2 squares of
you.


That is incorrect.

as the highlighted portions show, you can only use the power if you qualify for it. to qualify for Deft STrike, you need to have 1 creature in melee range. which for this power is the weapons reach value. for a normal weapon adjacent squares. i have yet to have anyone prove otherwise.

so.. as stated you can only use the power if you have valid targets, with out a target you can't use the power.

JaxGaret
2008-06-29, 02:57 PM
The attack is targeting the creature, not the power. Thus you don't need to have a target in melee range to use the power.

In other words, Deft Strike always gives you two squares of movement. If there is an enemy within range of your attack after that movement, you can attack it.