"and as for the elf..." the V-B connection

[Remirach]

In 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) the Oracle, having spun out increasingly improbable explanations as to how Belkar could have "caused the death of" Roy, Miko, or her horse, begins what appears to be another "interpretation," starting with "and as for the elf--" And this is where Belkar finally cuts him off.

The implication in this aborted sentence is that Belkar will, at some time in the future, "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius, if only in an extremely convoluted way that the Oracle thought might fit his earlier prophecy.

But I wonder where this train of thought was going before the Oracle was interrupted. Given that the Oracle's interpretations of Belkar's contributions to the deaths of characters went progressively from semi-plausible (Roy) to almost nonsensical (Miko's horse), and that V was at the end of the line, (after the horse, even, suggesting an even MORE tenuous connection) it seems likely that Belkar's contribution to Vaarsuvius' death is going to be rather indirect.

What I was wondering is this: is it possible that it is not merely Belkar's involvement in the issue which is sketchy, but the implied "death" that awaits Vaarsuvius? After all, Windstriker did not exactly "die," and yet the Oracle was trying to use him as an argument -- by selectively defining how one could interpret "death." Could this tie in to Vaarsuvius' achievement of "complete and total ultimate arcane power?" We know she'll get it -- Vaarsuvius did not ask if she would obtain it, but rather how, and the Oracle's response definitely indicates that she WILL be successful in her endeavor. Is it possible that Vaarsuvius "dies" in some fashion when she finally obtains it? And does Belkar play a role in this somehow?

Any thoughts? I hope this came off as coherent enough, I'm pretty wiped out right now.

[Tempest Fennac]

S/he could become some sort of Undead, and Belkar could either suggest that V takes the necessary steps to Undeadify him/her, or he could help with the procedure.

[lothos]

Hey, I'd wondered about this too.

I think Remiarch is probably on to something there. I'd initially assumed that the aborted sentence was just not enough to draw a conclusion, but that idea of a pattern of decreasing plausibility seems like it might be in keeping with a lot of Rich's humour we have seen elsewhere in the comic.

One other thing, when Belkar "caused the death of" those 4 individuals (assuming he does actually cause the death of all 4 of course...) I guess this need not be a permanent death.

Perhaps V's current path towards apparent insanity and obsession with contacting Haley and Belkar will lead to her/his death ? In that case perhaps you could argue that because Belkar pointed out the messenger birds which were eaten, then you could argue that that contributed to the insanity continuing, possibly leading to V's death ?

Pure speculation of course..... But fun :-)

[Dunesen]

1. Belkar and V got into a personal rivalry of taunting and moderate pain (explosive runes, hornets).

2. At the Battle of Azure City V eventually ran out of spells and was forced to flee to the docks.

3. V blames self for not having enough magical power to stay and fight during the battle, and for Belkar and Haley being left behind. V believes that the rivalry with Belkar distracted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html) self from acquiring more magic.

4. V is currently driving self to further lengths to rectify their actions at the Battle, and while a lack of sleep does not affect an elf, it is becoming an obsession.

5. I won't guess at the details, but this chain of events will drive V to self-destructive and potentially fatal actions (assuming V is meant to die).

There's your connection.

[Dunesen]

But I don't think V will actually die. While I don't like the idea that Belkar will become undead or deified or anything, I am open to the possibility of something like this happening to V.

For one,

In SoD there is reference made to elves and other mortals attaining godhood

Should this happen to V, it would not technically be accurate to call them dead or alive. They would now be on a separate plane of life. The simplest idea is that this would come from V finally getting the absolute power the Oracle confirms will happen.

[Lorn]

Simple.

V drops dead from exhaustion. Belkar, meanwhile, due to being dragged along in the cart, is slowing Haley and Celia down - yet they are close enough that they would have arrived at V and the others if he was not slowing them down. Thus, he contributed to the exhaustion V feels from developing more and more spells, thus caused V to drop dead. Or spontaneously combust from a little accident caused by tiredness.

[Sir_Elderberry]

At that point, the simple fact that Belkar's actions influenced V's path at all makes him "cause the death". The issue here is that there is no singular cause.

[Dunesen]

Simple.

V drops dead from exhaustion. Belkar, meanwhile, due to being dragged along in the cart, is slowing Haley and Celia down - yet they are close enough that they would have arrived at V and the others if he was not slowing them down. Thus, he contributed to the exhaustion V feels from developing more and more spells, thus caused V to drop dead. Or spontaneously combust from a little accident caused by tiredness.

And how does V acquire ultimate arcane power?

[Fitzclowningham]

Dunesen, I think you could definitely be on to something. It's an exact fit with V's achieving "ultimate arcane power" and the oracle's intimation that he/she would, at the least, not be technically alive at some point in the comic.

I mean, what could be a 'wronger' reason than in pursuit of/a result of getting revenge against Belkar? I wonder what kind of being could propel V to godhood, or where/how he/she could gain the required worshippers, but I'm sure the Giant could easily come up with something. I could totally see a village or something completely terrorized by Belkar, and V showing up, blasting him, and later telling its leader, "I killed the halfling."

[Warren Dew]

The implication in this aborted sentence is that Belkar will, at some time in the future, "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius, if only in an extremely convoluted way that the Oracle thought might fit his earlier prophecy.

Actually, the implication is that Belkar already has 'caused the death of' Vaarsuvius, as the oracle is discussing why Belkar's "prophecy has already been fulfilled."

I agree it would have been interesting to see how he could twist the situation to read that way.

[Fitzclowningham]

Ahh...good point, Warren. The only thread of hope for Dunesen's theory would be that he has caused V's death, but that it hasn't happened yet. The oracle would be in a position to know. Not likely, though.

We haven't seen V in a while. Maybe the failure of his bird-spell has caused him to die of apoplexy.

[Remirach]

Actually, the implication is that Belkar already has 'caused the death of' Vaarsuvius, as the oracle is discussing why Belkar's "prophecy has already been fulfilled."

I agree it would have been interesting to see how he could twist the situation to read that way.
So he's twisting Vaarsuvius' current state of exhaustion and guilt (mixed with a heavy dose of apathy for those she doesn't consider personal friends) into a definition of "death?" I guess it would fit with his pattern of increasing implausibility, but that seems... rather unsatisfying. Even for the Oracle, it's a stretch. I got my interpretation because I had assumed the Oracle's remarks were foreshadowing of some sort -- else why interrupt?

[Selene]

and as for the elf... the very thought of you raises his blood pressure, which contributes to his upcoming stroke. :smalltongue:

[Remirach]

But I don't think V will actually die. While I don't like the idea that Belkar will become undead or deified or anything, I am open to the possibility of something like this happening to V.

For one,

In SoD there is reference made to elves and other mortals attaining godhood

Should this happen to V, it would not technically be accurate to call them dead or alive. They would now be on a separate plane of life. The simplest idea is that this would come from V finally getting the absolute power the Oracle confirms will happen.
I'm pretty sure you don't have to spoiler that, since a reference is made in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html) itself when Shojo talks about the elves and goblins "raising up their own." Although I suppose they could have gone the Banjo route when picking out candidates.

I like this idea a lot. I had been wondering if there are any mortal creatures that already possess "absolute arcane power." Although it might be worth pointing out that Vaarsuvius already worships a god... although her loyalty to him might be a bit suspect. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)

[Arkenputtyknife]

Actually, the implication is that Belkar already has 'caused the death of' Vaarsuvius, as the oracle is discussing why Belkar's "prophecy has already been fulfilled."
I don't see that. The prophecy has been fulfilled regardless of whether Belkar has caused V's death. For all we know, the oracle was about to say, "… sorry, you're out of luck there."

[Dunesen]

Arken first: True enough, the prophecy has been fulfilled on one front, but that doesn't necessarily rule out that V will die (or reach a state of unlife).

Fitz: Belkar already set the cause in motion with his rivalry in the past. Even if Belkar never saw V again, V could still become a god(dess) (thus losing their mortality) in the pursuit of ultimate arcane power (almost wrote ultimate arcade power, but that would be another webcomic (or 50)).

Remirach: I had just read all the strips 1-301, yet I forgot the mention of the goblin and elf gods. My mistake. (Although that was nice foreshadowing for SoD).

And wouldn't the elves that became gods later have worshipped deities while still alive?

And I do think my idea is a bit implausible, because it requires so much blame to placed on Belkar the way him causing Miko and Roy's deaths did. So maybe that means it will happen :smallbiggrin:.

[Dalenthas]

"As for the elf... his recent voluntary withdrawal from the world of the living to spend more time finding ways of communicating with you could be considered 'death' in that she no longer participates in normal living activities."

Increasingly implausable...

[FrankNorman]

Look, its very simple - when people die they go somewhere else, and under normal circumstances no further contact is possible with them.
Now V, Durkon and Elan are off on a boat somewhere out in the ocean, with no way for Haley and Belkar to make contact with them - or vice versa. A bit like their being dead.
There we go.
Possibly if V had had more spells that need not have happened.

[Raltar]

One thing you guys seem to be missing is that V isn't looking for the halfling, he's looking for Haley. He doesn't give a crap about finding Belkar.

[Bayar]

V will probably die of exaustion trying to contact them and Belkar would just obliterate the messengers or something. Like when they killed the birds...

[Maroon]

Vaarsuvius will die of old age.

Y'know, because Belkar didn't stop that from happening somehow.

[VForVaarsuvius]

In 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) the Oracle, having spun out increasingly improbable explanations as to how Belkar could have "caused the death of" Roy, Miko, or her horse, begins what appears to be another "interpretation," starting with "and as for the elf--" And this is where Belkar finally cuts him off.

The implication in this aborted sentence is that Belkar will, at some time in the future, "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius, if only in an extremely convoluted way that the Oracle thought might fit his earlier prophecy.

But I wonder where this train of thought was going before the Oracle was interrupted. Given that the Oracle's interpretations of Belkar's contributions to the deaths of characters went progressively from semi-plausible (Roy) to almost nonsensical (Miko's horse), and that V was at the end of the line, (after the horse, even, suggesting an even MORE tenuous connection) it seems likely that Belkar's contribution to Vaarsuvius' death is going to be rather indirect.

What I was wondering is this: is it possible that it is not merely Belkar's involvement in the issue which is sketchy, but the implied "death" that awaits Vaarsuvius? After all, Windstriker did not exactly "die," and yet the Oracle was trying to use him as an argument -- by selectively defining how one could interpret "death." Could this tie in to Vaarsuvius' achievement of "complete and total ultimate arcane power?" We know she'll get it -- Vaarsuvius did not ask if she would obtain it, but rather how, and the Oracle's response definitely indicates that she WILL be successful in her endeavor. Is it possible that Vaarsuvius "dies" in some fashion when she finally obtains it? And does Belkar play a role in this somehow?

Any thoughts? I hope this came off as coherent enough, I'm pretty wiped out right now.

Or he could be saying "And as for the Elf, well, you can't win them all." Or something like that. Whenever it is even decently plausible, assume Rich is just screwing with your mind.:smallamused:

[Gamerlord]

I believe that:

V will attempt more and more dangorus methods of gaining power, even killing AC soldiers in their sleep to earn EXP and may attempt some crazy ritual to speak with a powerful demon or something similar until she/he does something so crazy it takes her down and makes her lose her life (she may transform in to a undead or outsider or something maybe.

[Morgan Wick]

In 567 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) the Oracle, having spun out increasingly improbable explanations as to how Belkar could have "caused the death of" Roy, Miko, or her horse, begins what appears to be another "interpretation," starting with "and as for the elf--" And this is where Belkar finally cuts him off.

The implication in this aborted sentence is that Belkar will, at some time in the future, "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius, if only in an extremely convoluted way that the Oracle thought might fit his earlier prophecy.

But I wonder where this train of thought was going before the Oracle was interrupted. Given that the Oracle's interpretations of Belkar's contributions to the deaths of characters went progressively from semi-plausible (Roy) to almost nonsensical (Miko's horse), and that V was at the end of the line, (after the horse, even, suggesting an even MORE tenuous connection) it seems likely that Belkar's contribution to Vaarsuvius' death is going to be rather indirect.

What I was wondering is this: is it possible that it is not merely Belkar's involvement in the issue which is sketchy, but the implied "death" that awaits Vaarsuvius? After all, Windstriker did not exactly "die," and yet the Oracle was trying to use him as an argument -- by selectively defining how one could interpret "death." Could this tie in to Vaarsuvius' achievement of "complete and total ultimate arcane power?" We know she'll get it -- Vaarsuvius did not ask if she would obtain it, but rather how, and the Oracle's response definitely indicates that she WILL be successful in her endeavor. Is it possible that Vaarsuvius "dies" in some fashion when she finally obtains it? And does Belkar play a role in this somehow?

Any thoughts? I hope this came off as coherent enough, I'm pretty wiped out right now.

So what you're saying is, you think Belkar might be in some way connected to V's Four Words (TM)?

Re: Fitzclowningham. We haven't seen V since 565 or so. Throw in the blistering pace of updates and it has NOT been "a while" since we've seen V.

Re: "well, you're out of luck there" theories. It seems clear, at the least, that Rich wants us to THINK Belkar will "cause the death" of V.

[Niknokitueu]

I personally believe that V's and Belkar's prophesies are linked.

Hows about this:

V ends up transcending the mortal plane (ie becoming a god). In this respect he is no longer alive and can therefore (implausibly) be considered 'dead'.

Belkar accidently sets up the scene for V achieving this power. Perhaps by taking on the Snarl at an inopportune moment (possibly by self-sacrifice just to give a finger to all those hoping he would go to CE 'heaven') and embarrasing V in the process.

V then says something like "Damn you Belkar Bitterleaf", taking on the snarl himself, somehow mastering it and re-sealing it. In the process V has achieved ultimate arcane power by saying the wrong four words to the wrong individual at the right time.

The actual processes are only known to Rich, but I think he is convoluted enough to force us to simultaneously witness both Belkar and V's prophesies come true. After a fashion... :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Dunesen]

I personally believe that V's and Belkar's prophesies are linked.

Hows about this:

V ends up transcending the mortal plane (ie becoming a god). In this respect he is no longer alive and can therefore (implausibly) be considered 'dead'.

Belkar accidently sets up the scene for V achieving this power. Perhaps by taking on the Snarl at an inopportune moment (possibly by self-sacrifice just to give a finger to all those hoping he would go to CE 'heaven') and embarrasing V in the process.

V then says something like "Damn you Belkar Bitterleaf", taking on the snarl himself, somehow mastering it and re-sealing it. In the process V has achieved ultimate arcane power by saying the wrong four words to the wrong individual at the right time.

The actual processes are only known to Rich, but I think he is convoluted enough to force us to simultaneously witness both Belkar and V's prophesies come true. After a fashion... :smallcool: :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Except that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) it's the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

[Niknokitueu]

D'oH! forgot that... :smallredface:

Hokay,
Maybe as a result of Belkar's sacrifice, V challenges the snarl to a duel, outwitting it and hence ascending.

...Or maybe we just have to wait a few years for Rich to show us...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Dunesen]

D'oH! forgot that... :smallredface:

Hokay,
Maybe as a result of Belkar's sacrifice, V challenges the snarl to a duel, outwitting it and hence ascending.

...Or maybe we just have to wait a few years for Rich to show us...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

I think the "wait and see" theory is the most likely :smalltongue:

[Lorn]

And how does V acquire ultimate arcane power?
Maybe he gets it, but it contributes to the exhaustion and burns him out, much like at the end of the 9th Doctor's series, with the time vortex? Too much power, well, he could get it - controlling it, though, is possibly a different question.

[Axl_Rose]

Actually, the implication is that Belkar already has 'caused the death of' Vaarsuvius, as the oracle is discussing why Belkar's "prophecy has already been fulfilled."

I agree it would have been interesting to see how he could twist the situation to read that way.

Yeah I was thinking of correcting that myself, but looks like you beat me to the chase there.

[Grey Watcher]

One thing you guys seem to be missing is that V isn't looking for the halfling, he's looking for Haley. He doesn't give a crap about finding Belkar.

True, but I'm sure you could interpret events in such a way that, by insisting on going with Haley to retrieve Roy's body after the fall of Azure City, Belkar is responsible for the team being separated in the first place.

[Arcadius798]

maybe we're thinking in too literal sense, the oracle wouldn't just say " alright, belkar is in some vague way going to kill him" no, i personally think Belkar will cause some form of psychological or mental "death" to Vaarsuvius, perhaps a great amount of trauma from some great fault in V's tactics, or in a future battle, Belkar causes in some way a threatening experiance where he explodes all of his rage verbally at V, i don't know, i'm not Rich, i'm not saying could happen like that, but i personally think we need to look at all perspectives, not just "dead-death"

[Riveth]

The bottom line of Remirach's theory that started this thread is that V's death, if it's ever to take place in the comic, would be connected to Belkar's actions in an even more convoluted manner than the aforementioned, considering the oracle's explanations became more stupid one after one.
BUT...!
What differs the elf (and, at that point of time, also the oracle) from Roy, Miko and Windstriker is that he/she/it hasn't died yet. So that could be another reason for the oracle putting V at the end of the line there. His unfinished sentence could as well have been "And as for the elf, she ain't dead yet, but when her time comes, she'll be dying from your hands." Or something like that, in way better English than mine.
I don't think this theory is more or less likely than Remirach's, but wanna point out that, while the oracle's words could totally mean that Belkar won't be responsible for V's death from any reasonable point of view, they as well could mean quite the opposite.
Everything's still possible, that's one of the things I like so much about this comic. :)

[David Argall]

I don't think this theory is more or less likely than Remirach's, but wanna point out that, while the oracle's words could totally mean that Belkar won't be responsible for V's death from any reasonable point of view, they as well could mean quite the opposite.

That a theory could be does not make it at all likely to be. To assign probability, we need evidence. Here the first piece of evidence is that the Oracle is trying to avoid what he knows he can't, and so gives it his best shot first, followed by weaker and weaker arguments.
Another is that the Oracle tells Belkar his prophecy has already come true. That means for V that either Belkar has already "killed" her in some convoluted way, or that some action that Belkar has already done will kill him. There is no room in the Oracle's words for any sort of "Belkar just up and stabs V some time in the future."

[Jazzpirate]

How about this:

In Vs attempt to contact the others, she dies voluntarily so she can see where they are and then resurrects out of some reason (have to give this a little more thought) with ultimate arcane power.
According to the oracles twisted ways, Belkar "causes the death" of others, It would seem plausible to say - as was already suggested - Belkar caused Haley to be left behind in Azure City, thus driving V to contact them and thus his/her death.
Or maybe the right words at the right time to the right person for all the wrong reasons are targeted at Belkar and he then does something, that kills V and gives her ultimate arcane power.
Just some thoughts on the matter.

[Dunesen]

How about this:

In Vs attempt to contact the others, she dies voluntarily so she can see where they are and then resurrects out of some reason (have to give this a little more thought) with ultimate arcane power.
According to the oracles twisted ways, Belkar "causes the death" of others, It would seem plausible to say - as was already suggested - Belkar caused Haley to be left behind in Azure City, thus driving V to contact them and thus his/her death.
Or maybe the right words at the right time to the right person for all the wrong reasons are targeted at Belkar and he then does something, that kills V and gives her ultimate arcane power.
Just some thoughts on the matter.

Doesn't work at all. Without Belkar there Haley wouldn't have been able to convince the MitD to give up Roy and O-Chul (doubtful she could have made stew on the spot like that). There's no way she could have snuck the bodies away, or even just Roy's, so she would have been even further from the boat when it took off.

[Jazzpirate]

Doesn't work at all. Without Belkar there Haley wouldn't have been able to convince the MitD to give up Roy and O-Chul (doubtful she could have made stew on the spot like that). There's no way she could have snuck the bodies away, or even just Roy's, so she would have been even further from the boat when it took off.
Who knows, maybe she would have found a way, but I think in the Oracles way of reasoning it would be valid. The Oracle also admitted Roy would have died anyway, whether Belkar had given him the ring or not. So I don't see why Belkar shouldn't be responsible only because she also would have been late without him.

[Bongos]

The reason the Oracle didn't finish the sentence is because Varsuvius is alive and isn't going to die.
The Oracle was probably just going to make something up, but Rich stopped the sentence because he didn't want to write about something that wasn't going to happen anyways. My opinion anyways.

[Alaska Fan]

I'm confused. Belkar's question in #331 was "Do I get to cause the death of any of the following:" followed by a list of names. Not all, just any. Belkar knew this; his unanswered follow-up question was "Which one."

In #567, the Oracle spins increasingly improbable explanations of how Belkar has "killed" everyone else, knowing all the while ("I really wasn't buying any of those theories either.") that the character Belkar would kill was the Oracle.

It doesn't matter what remote chain of events the Oracle was going to offer for Belkar "killing" Vaarsuvius. The Oracle was faking it, trying to avoid the outcome he had foreseen in #331. So who cares what implausible yarn got cut off? It was a theory even the Oracle didn't believe.:smallconfused:

[Remirach]

I'm confused. Belkar's question in #331 was "Do I get to cause the death of any of the following:" followed by a list of names. Not all, just any. Belkar knew this; his unanswered follow-up question was "Which one."
The odds were that he'd only get to kill one person... er, "being" (does a horse count as a person?) on the list. But the open-ended way the question was phrased, he could have killed several people on the list, or even all of them. There was no limit in either the question or answer. So even if he'd already killed one of his intended victims, it didn't mean the others were safe. That might be part of the reason the Oracle answered simply "yes," instead of "yes, you will kill me."


In #567, the Oracle spins increasingly improbable explanations of how Belkar has "killed" everyone else, knowing all the while ("I really wasn't buying any of those theories either.") that the character Belkar would kill was the Oracle.

It doesn't matter what remote chain of events the Oracle was going to offer for Belkar "killing" Vaarsuvius. The Oracle was faking it, trying to avoid the outcome he had foreseen in #331. So who cares what implausible yarn got cut off? It was a theory even the Oracle didn't believe.:smallconfused:
He wasn't exactly "faking it;" Roy and Miko did die, and Windstriker is "no longer among the living" either. And while you might say Belkar's contribution to their demise was extremely circuitous, he DID play SOME role. So, since the Oracle was trying to include Vaarsuvius in list, it suggests she either will die,, has died (a pseudo death), or will die a pseudo death in the future, and that Belkar will have (or already had) some indirect role in bringing about this "death."

The question is how, and my theory was that it might have something to do with her pursuit of ultimate arcane knowledge.

[PhallicWarrior]

My guess: V decides to become a Lich, and needs someone evil for the ritual so Belkar cuts out V's heart for him/her, causing the (un)death of V. For bonus points, Mr. Scruffy becomes V's Phylactery, turning him into a nigh-invulnerable apocalycat.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Or maybe the oracle is just full of $hit.

[Jorrath_Zek]

Or Belkar's killing of the Birds drive V to seek even more power to over come the Undead Lich...

I don't remember the name, but I seem to remember a Prestige Class for Elven Casters of Good Alignment to become some kind of Good Undead Pure Caster...

That would satisfy what the Oracle sad, "For all the Wrong Reasons", and make the connection that B drove V to his Death... It would also be the end result for the obsession V's is currently suffering... And it would require the assistance of a Powerful Cleric like D who happens to be with V right now...

[Chazzie]

Why does everyone seem to believe that the phrase "And as for the elf" means "And as for the elf, you're going to kill him this way"? When I read that, my V-fangirling mind went to "And as for the elf, he was the one exception" or "And as for the elf, he prepares explosive runes that morning to get out of his predicament". Something along those lines.

Really, "and as for the elf" tells us next to nothing. It might seem like the Oracle was explaining how he caused the death of all of them, but he could have just went "You killed Roy like this, you killed Miko like this, the horse is dead because of this, and the elf got out of it."

With all the others, he said "You caused the death of"- but not V.

[aliron]

Why does everyone seem to believe that the phrase "And as for the elf" means "And as for the elf, you're going to kill him this way"? When I read that, my V-fangirling mind went to "And as for the elf, he was the one exception" or "And as for the elf, he prepares explosive runes that morning to get out of his predicament". Something along those lines.

Really, "and as for the elf" tells us next to nothing. It might seem like the Oracle was explaining how he caused the death of all of them, but he could have just went "You killed Roy like this, you killed Miko like this, the horse is dead because of this, and the elf got out of it."

With all the others, he said "You caused the death of"- but not V.

I always thought the oracle made the BS interpretations in order to get Belkar to kill him to fulfill his prophecy. Wasn't the original question "Would I cause the death of blah, blah, blah, or blah?" not "blah blah blah and blah"

Technically the prophecy has already been fulfilled, he caused the death of the oracle, and therefore the oracle has no need to refund his money.

To clarify, I agree with your statement.

[brilliantlight]

"As for the elf... his recent voluntary withdrawal from the world of the living to spend more time finding ways of communicating with you could be considered 'death' in that she no longer participates in normal living activities."

Increasingly implausable...

We have a winner!!! That does fit the pattern. There was a strong arguement for Roy's death being it. There was some rather weak arguement about Miko and the one about the horse was pathetic.