So Why Doesn't Redcloak Visit the Oracle?

[BenjCano]

It seems to me that knowledge of the Oracle's location and abilities must be not uncommon, if he maintains a business sufficient to entice adventurers to visit him on a semi-regular basis.

Since Redcloak is so intent on getting as much information about the next gate before he and Xykon attempt to seize it, wouldn't it behoove Team Evil to pay a visit to Lickmyorangeballshalfling and consult our reptilian plot device?

Just methinks.

[disorder]

The Oracle gets his information straight from Tiamat...who would probably not want to help Redcloak free the god-killing abomination.

[Dunesen]

The Oracle gets his information straight from Tiamat...who would probably not want to help Redcloak free the god-killing abomination.

That would explain why the Oracle might not help Redcloak, but not why Redcloak doesn't make the trip in the first place.

But it's a good question. From a writing perspective it makes things too easy for the villains, and right now they need to be delayed sufficiently so the heroes can regroup.

In-universe, Redcloak already gave the answer when he explained why he was delaying things by torturing O-Chul. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) The sooner they have answers on where to go and how to get to the gate, the sooner they need to move out. Redcloak has his competing interests of both securing a gate and providing for his goblin brethren, and the former can wait.

Personally, I'd rather see Redcloak ask how to get rid of Xykon once and for all, because he's holding back the operation. I love Redcloak like few villains, and I wish he'd cut the deadweight.

[Kurald Galain]

wouldn't it behoove Team Evil to pay a visit to Lickmyorangeballshalfling and consult our reptilian plot device?

Redcloak is rather speciesist, and not fond of anything that's not a goblin. That might explain things.

[Sir_Elderberry]

He probably has heart murmurs or something.

[Avaris]

Part of it may be Redcloaks opinion of the attitudes other races have towads goblins. In Start of Darkness he talks about how goblins are seen by other races (created as essentially xp and betrayed at every turn), and as the oracle is primarilly visited by adventurers it seems a natural assumption to make that he would refuse to help a goblin (especially seeing as no-one knows he is in fact a kobold, and thus in the same boat as Redcloak).

Plus, he isn't a pc. Oracles only ever help pcs.

[factotum]

Redcloak is rather speciesist, and not fond of anything that's not a goblin. That might explain things.

How would he know that the Oracle isn't a goblin? Nobody remembers anything about him when they leave the valley, remember.

[Innis Cabal]

Redcloak is rather speciesist, and not fond of anything that's not a goblin. That might explain things.

No one knows what race the oracle is untill they meet him, so he would have no way of knowing untill he travelded. Still dosn't answer it.

Does he even know of the oracle? Thats something that should be answered first

And @ Avaris- His special guest dosnt sound like a PC, i dont think that theory holds

*edit* and ninja'd

[BenjCano]

Plus, he isn't a pc. Oracles only ever help pcs.

So not true. Leaving aside the dangerously genre savvy villains, the Oracle at Delphi told Odysseus' father about the humorous chain of events that would be perpetuated by his boy -- leading to the even more humorous fulfillment of those same chain of events. Oracles help villains all the time -- how else do they learn about the One Child that might rise up to defeat them?

And Dunesen makes a really good point. Even if Redcloak puts aside the issue of the next gate, which Tiamat prolly wouldn't help with, the question of controlling or eliminating Xykon when the time is right seems like a subject Redcloak should be interested in.

And as for how well known the Oracle is -- Roy and Durkon visited him even before they formed the Order of the Stick, and there was a random druid mucking about in the wildness that will pay the Oracle a visit in the near future...

Seems like the kind of thing that is generally known.

[SPoD]

And as for how well known the Oracle is -- Roy and Durkon visited him even before they formed the Order of the Stick, and there was a random druid mucking about in the wildness that will pay the Oracle a visit in the near future...

Seems like the kind of thing that is generally known.

Roy and Durkon only knew about the Oracle because Roy's father told them, because he visited the Oracle when he was younger. Since Haley, Elan, V, and Belkar had never heard of the Oracle, I would argue that it's not well known at all. Just because a druid will find the Oracle in about three years' time doesn't mean there will be more than 4-5 other customers between now and then.

The use of the memory charm and the Oracle's attitude seem to imply that he wants as few customers as possible to pay his bills, and that he is OK with actively driving away clients--or even killing them with hydrae or butterscotch golems.

EDIT: And even if Redcloak has heard of the Oracle, he seems like the sort to not believe in that stuff. He has a very scientific mind, he might prefer to believe he can shape his own future.

[silvadel]

I think redcloak WILL visit the oracle.

As for the oracle himself -- He doesnt like the oots, and he has a healthy respect/fear for the "seriously bad dude." For all we know he could be completely friendly to redcloak.

The question redcloak would ask though might surprise some.

[NerfTW]

I think the above linked comic states it rather well. Redcloak wants to delay the next phase of the plan until the city is secure and stable. Going to the Oracle would give Xykon a reason to immediently move out.

It's the same reason he keeps torturing O'chul, despite it being more expedient at this point to simply send a scouting party to each gate. They even have a teleporting ally now.

Redcloak is purposely taking the long route to delay Xykon. The better question is how long until Xykon learns about the Oracle.

[VForVaarsuvius]

SoD spoiler:

I thought Tiamat helped make the Dark One a deity and gave him info on the Snarl...

[kpenguin]

I think it would be very interesting if Team Evil visited the Oracle. Namely because Xykon would immune to the memory charm.

[David Argall]

Personally, I'd rather see Redcloak ask how to get rid of Xykon once and for all, because he's holding back the operation. I love Redcloak like few villains, and I wish he'd cut the deadweight.
All these people with the idea that somehow Redcloak is being forced to go after the gates and he is eager to be free of Xykon. Pure nonsense.
From Redcloak's view, Xykon is that hot number who is going to put out tonight if you behave yourself. So there is annoying stuff? So? You have to look at the big picture.

Redcloak wants control of a gate, and as far as he [or we] knows, Xykon is not just useful for that goal, he is downright vital. Redcloak is not even looking at any question of how to replace him. For Redcloak, Xykon is part of the solution. So he pushes Redcloak around and causes problems? Some things, you just have to let slide. Just be nice to him until that gate is controlled. Then the Dark One rules.

Now as noted, Redcloak is in no rush at the moment, but eventually he will want to head to the next gate, and so does he learn of the Oracle?

The presence of another customer the same day, an on duty medical staff, a means to drop monsters for the test, the fact the Oracle thinks he is getting rich despite obvious major expenses, etc, etc, all argue for substantial numbers of customers. My guess would be one thousand a year.
So the word is out, at least in the Southern lands. Now the goblin lands are another story. The testimony of the other members of the party show the information is not known to everybody. And it is even less likely to be known outside human lands. So ignorance is possible.

This may be how the bad guys actually get moving. Xykon or Redcloak hear of the Oracle. Maybe our mystic thurge tells them. A quick trip and they learn enough [or think they do] to head to the next gate.

[Eric]

Because he can't afford to find out it's all doomed.

[Dunesen]

SoD spoiler:

I thought Tiamat helped make the Dark One a deity and gave him info on the Snarl...

Giving free information and actively helping are two very different things in this case.


All these people with the idea that somehow Redcloak is being forced to go after the gates and he is eager to be free of Xykon. Pure nonsense.
From Redcloak's view, Xykon is that hot number who is going to put out tonight if you behave yourself. So there is annoying stuff? So? You have to look at the big picture.

Redcloak wants control of a gate, and as far as he [or we] knows, Xykon is not just useful for that goal, he is downright vital. Redcloak is not even looking at any question of how to replace him. For Redcloak, Xykon is part of the solution. So he pushes Redcloak around and causes problems? Some things, you just have to let slide. Just be nice to him until that gate is controlled. Then the Dark One rules.

I'm assuming you've read SoD, given that you named the Dark One by (non-)name.

Redcloak knows that Xykon has his uses, but he has also underscored that his alliance is tentative, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) without going into the many times he's been frustrated by Xykon's ineptitude as a leader. One example, since I already had the link. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)

It is entirely plausible that a point will come that Redcloak will try to get Xykon out of the way. True, he won't have someone with the same magical knowledge and skill that Xykon has, but he will have an army of hobgoblins to secure the gate long enough to find someone else. Someone more trustworthy, maybe even a goblin if he was lucky enough.

Just wishful thinking on my part. I love Redcloak as a villain, moreso than Xykon because he's far more interesting and actually sympathetic. Xykon is a bit one-note; or two-note, I should say, equal turns sadistic and buffoonish.

Meanwhile, Redcloak gets moments like the penultimate panel here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html) I just love that.

[Kurald Galain]

No one knows what race the oracle is untill they meet him, so he would have no way of knowing untill he travelded. Still dosn't answer it.

That's a good point, but everybody who has been to the oracle remembers him as... something. In the OOTS's case, they remember him as an elf, a halfling, and so forth. So apparently, whatever the oracle is, most rumors will agree that it's not a goblin.

SOD:
Yes, Tiamat did that, but later on didn't want to tell the Dark One everything; that was Rat's job

[ZFR]

Well, Mr. Burlew did give an answer here (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7) on why didn't character Y take action Z.

(Which of course doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed on the forums...)

Personally I think Redcloak simply hasn't heard of the Oracle...

[Logalmier]

Redcloak is rather speciesist, and not fond of anything that's not a goblin. That might explain things.

He's a speciesist against humans, not Kobolds. And in SoD

he mentioned that Kobolds were one of the races the gods created just to serve as XP for clerics.

[Chronos]

Redcloak is rather speciesist, and not fond of anything that's not a goblin. That might explain things.Eh, he doesn't have any particular animosity towards the other monster races, and for all we know, he might tolerate the PHB demihumans, too. It's just humans specifically that he hates. From SoD, when they're seeking a powerful arcane caster:
Fine, I admit that maybe our people aren't exactly genetically predisposed to be masters of arcane magic-- but then let's find a kobold half-dragon or an ogre mage or a... a... an awakened chipmunk! Anything but a human!And while any reports he might have heard of the Oracle probably wouldn't describe him as a goblin, by the same token, they probably wouldn't describe him as human, either.

[Waspinator]

He probably has heart murmurs or something.

You win the thread.

[chiasaur11]

Eh, he doesn't have any particular animosity towards the other monster races, and for all we know, he might tolerate the PHB demihumans, too. It's just humans specifically that he hates. From SoD, when they're seeking a powerful arcane caster: And while any reports he might have heard of the Oracle probably wouldn't describe him as a goblin, by the same token, they probably wouldn't describe him as human, either.

If most of the visitors were human they would. Belkar thought he was a halfling, Haley thought he was a girl, etc.

Since mostly PC races see him, he'd be described as a PC race most of the time.

[AceOfFools]

All these people with the idea that somehow Redcloak is being forced to go after the gates and he is eager to be free of Xykon. Pure nonsense.
From Redcloak's view, Xykon is that hot number who is going to put out tonight if you behave yourself. So there is annoying stuff? So? You have to look at the big picture.

That is... a twisted, accurate metaphor.

SoD spoilersRedcloak won't even consider another spellcaster, because he doesn't have the balls. Even if one falls into his lap, he won't go for it because that would mean he... y'know it's not in me to spoil this any more than I have.

There's a few more minor spoilers not spoilered below.

I think that redcloak would visit the oracle (likely bringing a couple dozen hobogoblin minions to up his question count), just not before he's ready to move out assuming that he knew the arrogant orange bastard existed.

As already pointed out, it was Eugene's knowledge that led the OotS to the Sunken Valley in the first, second and third time they visited him. Eugene went to a northern university and apprenticed out in the northern city of Cliffport, and knew about the dude before starting his adventuring carrier, and in fact may never have gone to Southern Lands ever, and as a high-ish level wizard even before starting his adventuring carrier, Eugene having substantially above average knowledge scores is a good bet.

Oddly enough by the way the gods work (not being able to directly affect lands other than there own), I think the Sunken Valley is technically in the western lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html). Huh.

Well the point is there is nothing to say the oracle is better known in the South than in the North, and can, in point of fact, be virtually unknown in southern lands. Just because there weren't many comics on the journeys between Azure City and the Sunken Valley doesn't mean that they were short. "Later that evening..." and all that.

EDIT: My bad, SoD puts Sunken Valley in the southern lands, although since it's on the way to Cliffport, it's still probably in the Northern part of of the Southern Lands.

[GSFB]

Who says he hasn't?

[Renx]

Who says he hasn't?

Instant win, thread over.

[thereaper]

This is a democracy, darnit! It ain't over until the people say it's over!

Or at least until the mods say so. They're like our elected officials, except we don't elect them. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, Redcloak doesn't like Xykon, but he's not going to be trying to replace him any time soon. If he did that, it would make a lot of stuff Redcloak has done up to this point meaningless. Furthermore, he'd be hard-pressed to find another epic-level sorceror. I mean, how many other epic level characters have even appeared in the strip? It seems to be pretty much just the order of the scribble, and most of them appear to be dead.

As for not visiting the Oracle, well, who's to say the Oracle would be able to tell him anything useful? Contrary to popular belief, oracles rarely know everything that's going to happen in the future. Yes, their prophecies have a nasty habit of coming true, but they also have a nasty habit of being either self-fulfilling (like the guy who had the heart attack after being told he would have a heart attack) or vague enough that there are several ways for them to be fulfilled. If Tiamat had the power to know what the Dark One was trying to accomplish, would she have helped him become a deity? Wouldn't she have instead smashed him into a sticky paste on principle? There's clearly some element of randomness involved, at least when one considers divine intervention. I mean, would the Snarl have even been created in the first place if the Gods could see everything? It's possible that the Oracle might not even know anything of use to Redcloak. Or if he did, it could be something false that Tiamat threw out there to mess Redcloak up. The very risk of something like that happening would probably be enough to discourage Redcloak from trying.

[AceOfFools]

SoD spoiler:The Dark One didn't know about the rifts or about the Snarl until well after he became a god.

[thereaper]

My point is that if Tiamat knew everything about the future, then she would have known what telling the Dark One about the Snarl would cause to happen. Why would Tiamat knowingly take a risk like that?

Heck, if the Gods could know everything that was ever going to happen with absolute certainty, why would there be any conflicts between them? They'd already know how any given conflict would turn out, so why bother? Why do anything? Nothing the Gods do is going to change how things turn out, so why try?

It sounds ridiculous, right? That's what I'm getting at. If the future is truly set in stone (and therefore able to be known with absolute certainty), the Gods become as helpless and meaningless as mortals. The Gods are supposed to be the ones who determine fate, and the mortals are supposed to be the ones who try to either fulfill their destiny, or make their own. And if the Gods determine fate, that means they can change it. Even if they try to minimize conflicts, it would still prevent any one person or deity from being able to know the future perfectly. And that's assuming that all non-deities have absolutely no control or say in how things turn out. If we bring the free-will of mortals into the picture, it becomes even more complicated.

[Querzis]

My point is that if Tiamat knew everything about the future, then she would have known what telling the Dark One about the Snarl would cause to happen. Why would Tiamat knowingly take a risk like that?

Heck, if the Gods could know everything that was ever going to happen with absolute certainty, why would there be any conflicts between them? They'd already know how any given conflict would turn out, so why bother? Why do anything? Nothing the Gods do is going to change how things turn out, so why try?

It sounds ridiculous, right? That's what I'm getting at. If the future is truly set in stone (and therefore able to be known with absolute certainty), the Gods become as helpless and meaningless as mortals. The Gods are supposed to be the ones who determine fate, and the mortals are supposed to be the ones who try to either fulfill their destiny, or make their own. And if the Gods determine fate, that means they can change it. Even if they try to minimize conflicts, it would still prevent any one person or deity from being able to know the future perfectly. And that's assuming that all non-deities have absolutely no control or say in how things turn out. If we bring the free-will of mortals into the picture, it becomes even more complicated.

You already overcomplicate it a lot when there is 4 simples explanations:

1. (the most likely one) when gods enter the pictures, you cant predict anything. I really never heard about any prophecy that affect the gods in any way.
2. The difference between knowing the future and being omniscient.
3. Tiamat might know the future but she cant change fate anyway. So she just try to twist it her way, like the Oracle did with Belkar and the MoJ.
4. The gods decide the fate of mortals which means they know everything thats gonna happen to them but, of course, they dont decide the fate of other gods.

Anyway, if we base ourself on the comic, yeah the Oracle definitly seems to be able to tell the future exactly.

[Ninja]

My point is that if Tiamat knew everything about the future, then she would have known what telling the Dark One about the Snarl would cause to happen. Why would Tiamat knowingly take a risk like that?

she can see the future, but that doesn't mean she always look in it....


Heck, if the Gods could know everything that was ever going to happen with absolute certainty, why would there be any conflicts between them? They'd already know how any given conflict would turn out, so why bother? Why do anything? Nothing the Gods do is going to change how things turn out, so why try?

well if they knew everything, and can;t vhange it, than they have to do it, so it doesn't change. but i don't think they know all with absolute certainty.... or they do but it's way hard for mere mortals to understand


It sounds ridiculous, right? That's what I'm getting at. If the future is truly set in stone (and therefore able to be known with absolute certainty), the Gods become as helpless and meaningless as mortals. The Gods are supposed to be the ones who determine fate, and the mortals are supposed to be the ones who try to either fulfill their destiny, or make their own. And if the Gods determine fate, that means they can change it. Even if they try to minimize conflicts, it would still prevent any one person or deity from being able to know the future perfectly. And that's assuming that all non-deities have absolutely no control or say in how things turn out. If we bring the free-will of mortals into the picture, it becomes even more complicated.

well let me say that you can choose wether or not you will do something. an omniscient being that can see the future knows what you will choose. that doesn't mean you have no choice, but simply that the omniscient being has seen your choice already and knows it. also it is possible that gods can see the mortal future on the world but not the future of other gods.

[Red XIV]

My point is that if Tiamat knew everything about the future, then she would have known what telling the Dark One about the Snarl would cause to happen. Why would Tiamat knowingly take a risk like that?
Isn't the Dark One's plan to utilize the gates to control the Snarl's power, rather than to actually release it? Perhaps Tiamat even approves of that plan, being Evil herself.

[krossbow]

So not true. Leaving aside the dangerously genre savvy villains, the Oracle at Delphi told Odysseus' father about the humorous chain of events that would be perpetuated by his boy -- leading to the even more humorous fulfillment of those same chain of events. Oracles help villains all the time -- how else do they learn about the One Child that might rise up to defeat them?





Thats the first time i've ever heard of patricide and having sex with your mother as "humorous"