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Chrisros
2008-06-29, 01:33 PM
Hey there! My 3.5 necromancer type is about to get the keys to his very first posse of zombies. :smallbiggrin: Before I enter negotiations with my DM regarding controlling them, what passages give what canonical references for the command of undead? Specifically, just how complicated an instruction can an INT 2 zombie understand and attempt? What kind of action is it to command zombies? How many zombies can be commanded with an action of that kind? Does that change if they are all being given the same order? different orders? We may well come up with some house rules and/or may use some of the handle animal rules for trained animals, but I’d like to know what the RAW offer as a baseline.

I’ve examined both the “command undead” and “animate dead” spells in my PHB, and found myself with more questions than answers. The zombies have to be able to hear my commands, and they must be simple. Well, duh! How simple, and more importantly, how long does it take?

Thanks for your help!

mabriss lethe
2008-06-29, 01:45 PM
Well, I don't think there's ever been a precise ruling on what sort of commands count as too complex for mindless undead. It's mostly up to the DM to decide when you're making commands too complicated. A couple of rules of thumb that seem to keep things pretty well balanced. I've used them as both a player and a GM and I haven't gotten any grief over it.

-If the handle animal skill covers it, then an undead can probably do it too.
-One type of movement and one type of action per command (with a few exceptions. if you have questions, then talk to the DM)

"go to {location x} and attack those goblins."

"walk 100 paces ahead of the party, if you come to a fork or a dead end, turn around and come back. You may defend yourself if attacked."

"Guard {person A} wherever he goes, unless he commands you to halt."


But yeah, after reviewing the handle animal skill, that should be a good baseline for what sort of commands you can give your undead.

Kyeudo
2008-06-29, 01:47 PM
Zombies are not int 2. They are Int -. Mindless automatons. If the order could be misunderstood, is in any way confusing, or is long, expect zombies to screw it up. You probably can't give step by step instructions to a zombie, as they have no memory.

Commanding zombies, unless you are talking about an evil cleric's ability to command the undead, is the same action as talking last I checked. How many you can command at once depends largely on how many you can speak to at once. Singling one creature out is probably harder than addressing a huge group.

Also, make sure you use Skeletons instead of Zombies, unless you need the creature's fly speed or it only has one natural attack. Skeletons, on average, give you more bang per hitdice than a Zombie of the same creature, and hitdice is the major limiter for how many undead you can control.

Ned the undead
2008-06-29, 02:23 PM
If you want some nice, strong, templated, zombies look up the zombie templates in Libris Mortis. You could say for the purposes of HD that every +1 CR equals +1 HD on the creature.

EDIT: Kyeudo has the right idea. Skeletons can move and attack in the same turn where as zombies need the Fast Zombie template for that. They also have the better damge reduction. When was the last time you encountered a Bludgeoning weapon?

Also with the Soldier Skeleton template they become excellent at swarming and flanking enemies. They get weapon focus with one weapon, Combat Reflexes, and +1 to attack rolls if it's next to another S.Skeleton and another +1 if the creature is flanked by a S.Skeleton for +1 CR. This also synergizes (sp?) well with the Nimble Skeleton template which a climb speed and +4 dex for better combat reflexes.

EDIT2: Rod of Undead Mastery doubles the amount of undead you can control.
If your playing a Wizard or Dread Necro awaken them as soon as you get the spell.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-29, 02:48 PM
If you want some nice, strong, templated, zombies look up the zombie templates in Libris Mortis. You could say for the purposes of HD that every +1 CR equals +1 HD on the creature.

You could, but it'd be a relatively bad idea, considering that zombie CR goes up by one per two or three hit dice, just from the template's table.

But then, the default control is based strictly on hit dice (and, potentially, Turn Resistance... which zombies and skeletons don't get by default), with +Cr templates not having any effect at all, so....


EDIT2: Rod of Undead Mastery doubles the amount of undead you can control.
If your playing a Wizard or Dread Necro awaken them as soon as you get the spell.

A Wizard or Sorcerer can control a very large number of mindless undead by way of the Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) spell. A Cleric can command a very large number of mindless undead by taking Leadership and Brew Potion - for a Cleric, Animate Dead meets all the requirements for being made into an oil, oils can be used by anybody, and when someone uses an oil, the person doing the application is considered the caster, while the person doing the application uses the oil's caster level - which means a Cleric doing this can have a large number of followers, each of which can potentially have four times the cleric's caster level in mindless undead under their command. It gets expensive fast, though.

Chronos
2008-06-29, 04:15 PM
Note also that most of your undead, you don't need to command at all. You want to station some zombies in a room in your dungeon, to attack anyone who comes into sight? Just leave them down there; that's what they do by default anyway.

AslanCross
2008-06-29, 04:38 PM
Zombies are tougher than skeletons, but are slower and less effective attackers, unless you give them weapons. They make better meat shields. Skeletons are quicker and retain the ability to make full attacks, but they're flimsier. Either one works. They're both Int --, which means they will only operate on the simplest of orders. The spell command undead says this:


A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.

That's about it for Int -- undead.

Burrito
2008-06-29, 04:43 PM
Granted, this was from 2nd edition, and about 99% house-ruled. But we had a Necromancer/Cleric type that had a "pet" zombie. Our DM had it so it was treated like a animal companion/familiar. It (we called him Drippy)gained a INT bonus and HD bonus. And he advanced as our Necromancer/Cleric guy advanced. It didn't break the game, but it made for some fun moments, and was pretty neat. He was pretty usefull too. Our Necromancer/Cleric could command the usual undead minion hordes, but they were throw away cannon fodder. Drippy stayed around for some time.

sonofzeal
2008-06-29, 05:05 PM
I think of it like computer programming - you have to break each instruction down into its elementary pieces, and the limit is your ability to phrase things in utterly unambiguous ways.

BAD
"Keep Sam safe" ("safe" is a difficult concept; the zombie might not understand who Sam is; keeping someone safe involves judgement calls a zombie is not equipped to make)

GOOD
"Follow this elf. Attack anyone who attacks him. Obey any command from him."



BAD
"Kill all intruders." ("intruder" is a difficult concept; the zombie might misinterpret and attack other guards; the zombie might attack its creator or other allies; the zombie might fail to attack an enemy if the enemy said it belonged)

GOOD
"Attack any being who enters this room, unless they say the word XYZ"



BAD
"Go ahead and scout for us, okay?" ("scout" is a difficult concept; the zombie wouldn't know what to report and may become lost; the zombie may not defend itself)

GOOD
"Walk forward 100 paces. If I move, move in the same way. If you reach an obstacle you cannot cross, return to me. If you see a humanoid, return to me, BUT if it attacks you then you will attack it. When you cannot attack any more, return to me."




That last one seems complex, but it's broken appart into discreet chunks, each of which the zombie should be easily capable of understanding and performing. Remember, there's no real limit on how many instructions the zombie can remember, only on its ability to implement them. With a sufficiently large number of zombies, you could probably build the world's first supercomputer.

Tehnar
2008-06-29, 05:47 PM
I go with these simple rules:

1) the zombie has a wis score: this means it can perceive the enviroment, and can perceive obvious (like fire or open pits), but it does not perceive some not so obvious attacks and enviromental hazards (such as the reseting pit trap).

2) the zombie is mindless: it can follow one and only one command. Typical commands are attack, follow, guard. Guard is about the most complex thing it can do. If the zombie is ordered to move somewhere it moves there using the most obvious manner. Mindless creatures generally auto fail their will saves against illusions (such as a illusionary bridge, a illusionary fire). A zombie has no memory (except for that one command).

Chrisros
2008-06-30, 01:37 PM
Thanks for all the ideas!

So, other than my idea to use Handle Animal as a base, no-one is aware of anything RAW/cannonical that indicates what kind of action it is to give orders to the dead?

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 04:51 PM
Thanks for all the ideas!

So, other than my idea to use Handle Animal as a base, no-one is aware of anything RAW/cannonical that indicates what kind of action it is to give orders to the dead?Not directly, no. There's a couple of places where it mentions that you have to talk to it (speech is, by default, a free action that can be taken out of turn ... unless you're doing a lot of it) - but even that depends on what method of control you're using.