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fleet
2008-06-29, 03:41 PM
Is it just me or does the paladin out class the fighter in most respects?

Paladin at wills, give temporary hp or buff the paladin. Fighter at wills make hitting easier. Paladin dailys cause massive damage, and debilitate foes. Fighter attacks, self buff and do decent damage.

What am i missing that makes a fighter a balanced choice over a paladin?

Grynning
2008-06-29, 03:44 PM
Fighters significantly out-class the paladin in damage dealing capability (check out the Gleemax forums for a few examples) plus they have a number of battlefield control abilities (stopping enemies with AoO's, pushing, etc). I'd certainly rather play a fighter.

LoopyZebra
2008-06-29, 11:06 PM
Admittedly, it's not mechanics, but there's also the (arguable) point that a fighter has more background and personality choices than a paladin. While a fighter can pretty much be anybody, a paladin has to be devoted to a god/divine source, although there's still a wide range of personalities for both.

Starbuck_II
2008-06-29, 11:32 PM
Is it just me or does the paladin out class the fighter in most respects?

Paladin at wills, give temporary hp or buff the paladin. Fighter at wills make hitting easier. Paladin dailys cause massive damage, and debilitate foes. Fighter attacks, self buff and do decent damage.

What am i missing that makes a fighter a balanced choice over a paladin?

Automatically, Fighters get +1 hit. Fighters defend an area better (Combat chsllenge, marking, attack of opp bonus).

Pallys do get Plate feat for free though: so +1 AC at low levels. Pallys defend from one person (Divine Challenge).

Myshlaevsky
2008-06-29, 11:37 PM
Fighters out-damage the Paladin and generally have better control; Paladins make for better buffers and one-on-one defenders.

Secondary roles associated with each:
Fighter: Defender/Striker
Paladin: Defender/Leader

They're fairly balanced in the long run: a few people have done a comparison on the Wizards boards. At some levels one has the edge over the other.

Joran
2008-06-29, 11:39 PM
Pallys defend from one person (Divine Challenge).

Yup. Just another reason why fighter may be better in some situations.

The fighter is capable of marking more than one target per turn if his/her attack targeted more than one enemy.

Nu
2008-06-30, 06:07 AM
The fighter does a better job of locking down an area and dealing damage than a paladin, but the paladin has a better ability to protect and heal allies, and is still quite capable of keeping one target locked down pretty well.

The one problem I have with paladin is that it seems to encourage boosting both Charisma and Wisdom, which is inefficient since only one gets to apply to your Will save.

Oslecamo
2008-06-30, 07:19 AM
Fighters out-damage the Paladin and generally have better control; Paladins make for better buffers and one-on-one defenders.

Secondary roles associated with each:
Fighter: Defender/Striker
Paladin: Defender/Leader

They're fairly balanced in the long run: a few people have done a comparison on the Wizards boards. At some levels one has the edge over the other.

Actually, the fighter wasn't suposed to be a striker, but if you optimize it, it starts to match the rogue in damage terms. Against single enemies. Against multiple enemies, it easily surpasses the rogue in damage dealt. And all of this while defending.

marjan
2008-06-30, 09:25 AM
Actually, the fighter wasn't suposed to be a striker, but if you optimize it, it starts to match the rogue in damage terms. Against single enemies. Against multiple enemies, it easily surpasses the rogue in damage dealt. And all of this while defending.

Yes, the fighter can become striker, but at the expense of his/her defenses. To come close to rogue's damage you must be something that can wield large weapons, boost your str and con and use 2H weapon (so no shield). Compared to brutal scoundrel they will both have almost same ac, fort and will defenses, but rogue will have better reflex defense. So you now have striker with marking ability, which is not what you want your defender to be.

Jerthanis
2008-06-30, 12:17 PM
Odd, I sort of have a preconception forming that Fighters are way better than Paladins, so maybe we're both just looking at one class and not seeing what the other can really do.

Paladins are limited to one mark per round, and even their mark isn't absolutely prohibited from attacking an ally, they're just penalized for it. Meanwhile a Fighter has a multitude of attacks which strike extra enemies, allowing him to mark those extra enemies for a turn. Also, if he marks the enemies, he can let his allies more easily control their range, since he can hit them and stop their movement, even on a shift. Gaining a bonus to opportunity attacks is just icing on the cake. Paladins get some melee buffs and healing, but I'm still unconvinced it can make up for the tactical control granted by the fighter.

Of course, I'm playing a Fighter right now, so I'm probably only really looking at the Fighter, and am unable to imagine how the Paladin could possibly stack up.

Tough_Tonka
2008-06-30, 09:22 PM
Don't forget the matter of abilities scores.

Paladin's Three Main stats are Str Wis and Chr which doesn't sound so bad until you realize that you have little room for good old constitution, a must have for any defender. Fighters on the other hand can focus on getting a great con str and wis/dex with no problem and at low levels good ability scores are extremely important.

Gort
2008-06-30, 10:22 PM
What I find most curious is that Paladin is one of only 2 classes(other is Rogue) that have at will melee attacks based of something other than strength. A paladin doesn't need to have a strength bonus. They can work off Charisma, with some Wisdom and perhaps a bit in Constitution.

The Paladin already has all the armour feats so they don't need to met any stat prerequisites there. A full half of their attack powers at each level are based on Charisma so they still have plenth of choice. As far as I can tell it only really costs in situations where you get a basic melee attack.

Helgraf
2008-06-30, 10:39 PM
The fighter does a better job of locking down an area and dealing damage than a paladin, but the paladin has a better ability to protect and heal allies, and is still quite capable of keeping one target locked down pretty well.

The one problem I have with paladin is that it seems to encourage boosting both Charisma and Wisdom, which is inefficient since only one gets to apply to your Will save.

Wizards have the same stick - Boost Int & Dex (at least, if you want maximum accuracy via Wand Implemnt). Both affect AC & Reflex, but you only get to apply one.

Roderick_BR
2008-07-01, 07:20 AM
Odd, I sort of have a preconception forming that Fighters are way better than Paladins, so maybe we're both just looking at one class and not seeing what the other can really do.

Paladins are limited to one mark per round, and even their mark isn't absolutely prohibited from attacking an ally, they're just penalized for it. Meanwhile a Fighter has a multitude of attacks which strike extra enemies, allowing him to mark those extra enemies for a turn. Also, if he marks the enemies, he can let his allies more easily control their range, since he can hit them and stop their movement, even on a shift. Gaining a bonus to opportunity attacks is just icing on the cake. Paladins get some melee buffs and healing, but I'm still unconvinced it can make up for the tactical control granted by the fighter.

Of course, I'm playing a Fighter right now, so I'm probably only really looking at the Fighter, and am unable to imagine how the Paladin could possibly stack up.
Yeah, don't forget that buffing and healing is as important as locking enemies in 4E. I'd say they are even in their areas. As Sharikov said, the fighter keeps enemies from easily reach their alies, and the paladin helps patch up everyone that does get hit.

Nu
2008-07-01, 10:16 AM
Wizards have the same stick - Boost Int & Dex (at least, if you want maximum accuracy via Wand Implemnt). Both affect AC & Reflex, but you only get to apply one.

I don't usually see that as much of a problem though, since every 4E wizard I've seen always went Orb Specialization, which relies on Intelligence and Wisdom (so it will boost AC, Reflex, and Will saves).

Some do pick up Wand of Accuracy as their 2nd implement specialization at paragon tier, though.

Dausuul
2008-07-01, 11:53 AM
My experience has been that paladins are big gobs of sacred glue, that glom onto a single target and keep it stuck, while being more or less impossible to kill. Fighters are a vortex of death sucking in any opponent that comes near.