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Deth Muncher
2008-06-29, 07:56 PM
The way it stands now is that my DM has split us into two groups, one "Good" and one "Evil." Most of both parties are Neutral of some sort or another, but in any event, both parties are aligned with either a Good or Evil Demigod.
As it stands now, although the "Good" party has decidedly more people (7 Good to Evil's 5), the "Evil" dudes. The "Evil" guys have already started amassing an army, and us "Good" guys? Yeah. Not only do we NOT know they've been raising an army, but we've been fighting back and forth over a few cities. The one they just took BACK today was one WE took back from THEM 2 sessions ago. And due to a misplaced spell of Glibness and a roll of a 51 for Bluff, the baddies now control that city. Themselves.

The only cool thing we've got is our own Sand Galley. (We're in Sandstorm, by the way.)

So what do we do? Do we start raising our own army? They've already got us beat numberwise, and spell-wise...well, we've got three sorcerors to their one, but theirs is a Sandshaper with lots of extra granted spells...blargh.

What do we do?

Edit: So as to the parties (sorry, computer messed up, making this take much longer than I'd hoped)

We have:
-Human Sorceror/Force Missile Mage (myself)
-my minion, a Rogue/Streetfighter
-2 more Human Sorcerors
-2 Elf Rangers
-Half-Dragon Fighter
-Asherati Rogue/Shadowdancer

They have:
- Human? Blackgaurd
- Bhuka? Sorceror/Sandshaper
- Bhuka Bard
- Elf? Swashbuckler/Rogue?
- Half-Orc Barbarian/ Eye of Gruumsh.
- There are 2 minions, but I don't know their specifics.

Super Double Edit: We're all level 9, by the way. With the exception of the minions, who are level 7. Although, I believe the baddies leveled up today, which means we're levelling up when we meet on Tuesday.

Zocelot
2008-06-29, 08:14 PM
What the races, classes and levels of your group, and the other group?

It's difficult to suggest strategy when you don't know either faction.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-29, 08:16 PM
What the races, classes and levels of your group, and the other group?

It's difficult to suggest strategy when you don't know either faction.

Edit: Fixed.

Zocelot
2008-06-29, 09:22 PM
I assume the army is helping to keep the city under enemy control. Your first objective will be taking back the city, preferably crippling the enemy in the process.

The evil people seem very strong especially with their army, so I wouldn't recommend going up against them directly.

Cause a ruckus in multiple parts of the city make sure they are clearly visible areas (Kill city guards while shouting anti-evil people propaganda). I'd divide the groups into sorc1/minion, sorc2/fighter, sorc2/both rangers. Stay relatively close by, so you can help each other if a fight goes badly

While the distraction is going on, have your shadowdancer try to assassinate key figures in the enemy's army (generals, lieutenants and whatnot). If any rangers are trained in stealth they could accompany the shadowdancer instead of causing the distraction. If all rangers are trained in stealth, you'd have a fair chance of killing an isolated member of the opposite party, instead of mere NPCs. (put the sorc they'd help distract into the group with the minion).

If you feel that your opposite faction has a fair chance of showing up, and that you could not defeat them, spread rumors that you are allying a different city to your cause. That will likely cause at least 2 of them to leave the city you are defending (alternative strategy: spread the rumors and plant an ambush).

Deth Muncher
2008-06-29, 09:48 PM
To be quite honest, I don't think we're getting this city back. Actually, I'm quite sure we aren't. The DM just told me so.

But what we DO need to do is be able to set up armies at cities we take back, so things like this won't happen.

How should we go about doing that?

holywhippet
2008-06-29, 10:17 PM
To be quite honest, I don't think we're getting this city back. Actually, I'm quite sure we aren't. The DM just told me so.

But what we DO need to do is be able to set up armies at cities we take back, so things like this won't happen.

How should we go about doing that?

You could take the profitable route. Start your own mercenaries guild in each city. Your employees gain experience and earn you gold, then when a city is threatened you pay for them to defend it - or arrange for a defense contract.

dyslexicfaser
2008-06-29, 10:33 PM
I'm not sure the mercenary route is the one the 'good' team should be going down, though there is something to be said for protecting your cities while earning a pretty penny off the backs of your peasants.

It's like being a king.

quiet1mi
2008-06-30, 12:37 AM
hmm. you are out numbered by superior forces... I will say, " put those Cha based classes to work and create insurgent cells in the enemy cities... hit and run tactics are always good for those low budget attacks..." also instead of taking the city by force of arms/assassination, make it too costly to them too keep the city.


wow! you guys are fighting an uphill battle.. i just looked at the "bad" guys crew and they have a bard,swashbuckler, and a blackguard...[this is bad due to their Cha based skills] well charm person from the sorcerer/rouge with use magic device sounds like a good counter to their charismatic group...

Deth Muncher
2008-06-30, 02:39 AM
well charm person from the sorcerer/rouge with use magic device sounds like a good counter to their charismatic group...

You have no idea. This guy used Ring of Greater Invisibility + Slippers of Spider Climb + Necklace of Fireball to decimate an entire city guard. Including blackguards.

de-trick
2008-06-30, 02:44 AM
i would say send word of the evil army to the good civilizations and wait for help, because good people always help other good people

Another_Poet
2008-06-30, 09:41 AM
I think you should stop focusing on cities altogether.

It's time to take out the enemy PC's personally.

Why, from a moral viewpoint: because protracted wars hurt all the citizens in all the cities. It is better to finish this with a surgical strike and begin the process of peace. (Remember, every time the DM calls your plan "assasination" correct him and say "surgical strike"!)

Why, from a strategic standpoint: Because you outnumber them, duh. PC-vs-PC is the only way you outnumber them, actually. So use what you got.

In fact, the only use you have for your cities at this point is as sources of magic items. Do what leaders do best and conscript some mages. That's force them to work for you, whether they want to or not. Of course don't threaten their families - you're good after all - just tell them it's the law and they will be rewarded very handsomely. After the battle. Whether you're lawful or just desparate, it's a good move.

In addition to getting the mages churning out magic items for you, borrow from each city's armoury. Every king or duke has to have a few choice artefacts in his royal vault, right? It's time to call all magic items on deck.

Once you are equipped to the bejeezus, teleport in (or whatever) and slaughter the enemy PC's. Their army will immediately unravel in their absence. You can probably even take some of their army and add it to your forces, with an offer of amnesty and fair pay for anyone who repents.

Also, it might seem smart to use rumours to split up the enemy PC's, but there's a problem with that: when you take out half of them, the other half will know you're gunning for them too. If you ambush them all at once they have no warning, no preparation. You already outnumber them so make it happen!

(I think it'd be especially cool if you time it so the ambush would happen at the end of your session/beginning of theirs. The enemy players show up for their session and find all the guys from Team Good sitting around the gaming table with dice ready to roll. "Hey what're you--O crap.")


ap

Flickerdart
2008-06-30, 10:24 AM
That seems like a good idea, yeah. You'll be buffed and stuff before the combat, and they'll be completely unprepared. If you can sneak in a squad of archers to shoot at them from rooftops or something, that always works. You outnumber them with magic, right? That means you can get up your AMFs and Silences in strategic places, and then obliterate them. Scatter, so AoEs won't affect you and would cripple them. They'll probably have good saves, so after you wipe the floor with the Barbarian's Will and the Sorcerer's Fortitude, focus on damage or debuffing instead. Since you'll be Crazy Prepared, some sort of Darkness and a way to see through that (True Seeing?) should work well. So we have:

Surprise Round:
Silence on them
Darkness on them
A bunch of Sneak Attacks from the Rogues that do some serious damage to their Sorcerer
Some more killing of the Sorcerer with everyone else
Antimagic Field on them if he's still alive, otherwise Dominate Person the Barbarian and go to town

Now they're spell-less, in the dark, confused and down a caster and possibly a Barbarian. Which means there's 3 of them to 7 of you. Guess what happens now.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-30, 01:02 PM
@ Poet: How very true. I mean, our local Demigod asked us to rally cities, but if we can just go wipe the other party out...yeah.

@Flicker: That...wow. That's a very good, well thought out plan. I like, I like. The only thing keeping us from doing that right now is:
-None of our casters have Silence or Darkness or Dominate Person(who'da thunk?)

...well, maybe the sorceror w/ the rogue dip might. I'll ask.

EDIT: Or AMF...

-The fact that IN character, we don't know where they are. We still think they're in the bad demigod's stronghold, when in fact they just took back. We can always Scry them to find out where they are now, but we wouldn't know to do that, really.

What I AM going to do is copy your post into a word document. From there, I'm going to keep it on my computer until such time as it becomes feasible to attack them. And then bust this baby out.

Another_Poet
2008-06-30, 04:30 PM
To add to Flickerdart's tactics, I was also going to suggest a squad of archers - each one with bane longbows (have one or two archers assigned to each enemy PC, with the appropriate bane weapon for that target's race). The idea here is damage damage damage.

If you can equip yourselves with Belts of Healing (Magic Item Compendium) even better, because in-combat healing is a bad idea and just gives them time to bounce back.

As far as not having the right spells, that's okay, get scrolls of them.

Wands of Summon Monster or Summon Nat's Ally are also good. Nothing like sproinging an extra handful of allies onto the scene each round. This might be an either-or with Darkness, though, if the summoned monsters have no way to see through it.

If anyone in the party specialises in illusion, that would also be a good bet. Have the archers and a fake set of good PC's (minions in illusory disguise) appear and fight for a couple rounds while you observe tactics (and of course you have Greater Invisibility on or similar). Then when the evil PC's think they're gonna win, strike.

I am curious, what do you mean your characters wouldn't think to Scry in-game? Is there a campaign reason for this (scrying is rare, scrying is Evil, etc.)? I would think any 9th level heroes on the losing side of a major war would consider investing in some divination.

Anyway, you can still stay true to your demigod's plan if assassin--er, a surgical strike is the best way to rally the cities around you. A few PC's with one sandship could win against a mighty army in a normal campaign, because the DM would balance the encopunters for you. In this kind of PvP, however, the encounters are determined largely by your enemies (who won't balance them for you) and the DM is supposed to remain neutral. So you have to do what you can.

The good news is, it sounds like the DM is hoping for a long city-taking campaign, and it sounds like the enemy PCs are following his hook. Their demigod probably told them the same thing that yours told you. And judging by how adamant they were in retaking the city that you took, they fell for it.

And that's excellent, because it means neither the DM nor the enemy PC's are expecting a personal attack.

Anyway, I'd love it if you update us as this campaign develops - it sounds like tonnes of fun and I'm really rooting for you guys. (yeah, what else do I have to do at work, right? :smalltongue: )

Lapak
2008-06-30, 04:48 PM
I think there has been a lot of good advice given, but based on the 'my DM told me we won't be getting this city back' comment, it sounds like the DM has a Specific Plot in his mind and he's not going to let any surgical-strike-style party vs. party raid to happen any time soon.

Which is a shame, because it is definitely the best way to handle your situation.

Flickerdart
2008-06-30, 04:54 PM
If you have Curse of Impending Blades, that's a good spell to spam a bit, since it gives -2 to AC with no save. Find a way to have your casters all learn it, spend a round debuffing their tank if you can't do anything better, and then knock around the -6 AC'd fool.

Zocelot
2008-06-30, 06:39 PM
Give one Sorcerer a Wand of Dispel Magic, and laugh as half of the enemy's spells stop working. Have another Sorcerer carry around a few scrolls, in case the minions can cast, or the bard seems to be spell happy.

Flickerdart
2008-06-30, 08:34 PM
Silence should take care of that, all Bardic abilities have a vocal component. Just get a scroll of it. The enemy Sorcerer should be dead in the surprise round anyways, but having a Wand of Dispel never hurt anyone. Since the Rogues will have good Initiative bonuses, they might even get a second Sneak Attack, which will do him in for sure.

Deth Muncher
2008-06-30, 09:54 PM
Hah, well...


We aren't allowed to kill the other guys. At least not yet. I mentioned waging war against them, and the DM said that if we even tried, we'd be killed. Most likely by falling rocks.

On the plus side, though, I've managed to recruit lots of other NPCs for our team.

Here's the story:

The Rogue/Sorceror and myself set off to another town to do our glorious miniquesting (myself for a Jasper Spider of Power, the R/S for a robe of somesort.) We go to our Sand Galley, and set off...

We encounter Sand Pirates.

Long story short? We get their ship. The R/S. disguised as Cap'n Crunch, starts the Crunch Navy. He also gets all their phat-lewtz, somewhere around 10k gold.

I also recruit 20 people to our cause. They're going to be Lv.1 Swashbucklers (although I'm gonna ask for a few ninjas...). As well, we've already got 20 crewman from the ship granted to us by our demigod, and he found a merchant who wanted to join our R/S, who also had 20 people.

Our party now has 67-69 members, thanks to my leadership.

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 08:53 AM
Hah, well...


We aren't allowed to kill the other guys. At least not yet. I mentioned waging war against them, and the DM said that if we even tried, we'd be killed. Most likely by falling rocks.

This makes me truly sad.


Our party now has 67-69 members, thanks to my leadership.

That's got to feel pretty good, though.

Zocelot
2008-07-01, 10:12 AM
Our party now has 67-69 members, thanks to my leadership.

Oh yeah, cause a party of 5 level 9 characters can't rip through that...

Unless you are outnumbering the enemy 100 to 1, an army of level 1 characters isn't going to do much good in actual combat.

In any fight which PCs participate in, it's going to be the PCs that decide the entire combat.

Maybe use your nearly endless stream of NPCs to always be in a flanking position?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-01, 10:44 AM
Oh yeah, cause a party of 5 level 9 characters can't rip through that...
Unless you are outnumbering the enemy 100 to 1, an army of level 1 characters isn't going to do much good in actual combat.

Oh, trust me, I expect them to be quite useless. The point of rallying people to our cause is now not only to run our fledgeling Sand Navy, but to be fodder so that we can get up to where we need to be mostly unscathed. To quote Xykon, "Is there any problem sacrificing minions can't solve?"

Also, speaking of the Sand Navy (now led by Admiral Crunch), we've outfitted our ships a wee bit. Now, not only do we have 60 NPCs, but we have Sand Galleys firing BALLISTAS. (If only we could sneak attack...cookie to the person who gets that reference)


In any fight which PCs participate in, it's going to be the PCs that decide the entire combat.

Maybe use your nearly endless stream of NPCs to always be in a flanking position?

Oh, well, of course the "Endless Flank" idea is quite good. Hell, we can even save up some cash and spring to get them all masterwork weapons or something. Idk. Or rings of invisibility...heh...

EndlessWrath
2008-07-01, 10:56 AM
You say that the characters aren't necessarily good? They are neutral to some degree yes?

In a campaign I'm playing in, my character is True neutral. This is due for several reasons.
He is lawful to some degree... His lawfulness deals with his extreme zeal for Honor...but he does not care for the laws of cities or nations.
He swore a blood oath of vengeance.. This is to fulfill his honor, but the means he takes to fulfill these goals are chaotic.

He is generally good hearted. "so why isn't he good then?" Because he fulfills his good intentions by taking evil actions. Usually... killing .... lots of killing.

My point is... Just because your a good aligned party, doesn't mean you'll always go for a fair fight.

FIGHT DIRTY. Thats the best way to do anything.
REMEMBER: Alignment does NOT dictate Action. Action dictates Alignment.

Furthermore...for the good members of your party... Good still doesn't mean you can't use gorilla tactics. Strike up an army? Hell yes. Raid, constantly and quickly.

Machiavelli's The Prince gives the best explanation. The Ends Justify The Means.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-01, 11:03 AM
Point 1.If you can equip yourselves with Belts of Healing (Magic Item Compendium) even better, because in-combat healing is a bad idea and just gives them time to bounce back.

As far as not having the right spells, that's okay, get scrolls of them.

Wands of Summon Monster or Summon Nat's Ally are also good. Nothing like sproinging an extra handful of allies onto the scene each round. This might be an either-or with Darkness, though, if the summoned monsters have no way to see through it.

Point 2.If anyone in the party specialises in illusion, that would also be a good bet. Have the archers and a fake set of good PC's (minions in illusory disguise) appear and fight for a couple rounds while you observe tactics (and of course you have Greater Invisibility on or similar). Then when the evil PC's think they're gonna win, strike.

Point 3.I am curious, what do you mean your characters wouldn't think to Scry in-game? Is there a campaign reason for this (scrying is rare, scrying is Evil, etc.)? I would think any 9th level heroes on the losing side of a major war would consider investing in some divination.

Anyway, you can still stay true to your demigod's plan if assassin--er, a surgical strike is the best way to rally the cities around you. A few PC's with one sandship could win against a mighty army in a normal campaign, because the DM would balance the encopunters for you. In this kind of PvP, however, the encounters are determined largely by your enemies (who won't balance them for you) and the DM is supposed to remain neutral. So you have to do what you can.

The good news is, it sounds like the DM is hoping for a long city-taking campaign, and it sounds like the enemy PCs are following his hook. Their demigod probably told them the same thing that yours told you. And judging by how adamant they were in retaking the city that you took, they fell for it.

And that's excellent, because it means neither the DM nor the enemy PC's are expecting a personal attack.

Point 4.Anyway, I'd love it if you update us as this campaign develops - it sounds like tonnes of fun and I'm really rooting for you guys. (yeah, what else do I have to do at work, right? :smalltongue: )

(Points with emphasis added by me for easier answering)

Point 1. The thing with those items is...well...they cost money. And we have a very limited cash influx, what with only doing city-work and not having gone crawling for treasure (except that lucky jerk who scored the ship by himself and got quintuple-digit loot). Although, those are incredibly good items I probbably would have forgotten about, and I intend on trying to pick some up with the meagre amount of GP I have left.

Point 2. We do in fact have an illusion specialist - the lucky jerk who scored himself a ship and started our Navy (although he insists on calling it his, with good reason). And we at least have limited access to Greater Invisibility, so that should work.

Point 3. I say that we wouldn't think to scry because we "in-game" do not know that the baddies retook that city, so we still think they're in the Evil demigod's city, which results in this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html)

Point 4. Is there a place on these forums for recording campaigns? Or should I do that elsewhere...?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-01, 11:07 AM
If you have Curse of Impending Blades, that's a good spell to spam a bit, since it gives -2 to AC with no save. Find a way to have your casters all learn it, spend a round debuffing their tank if you can't do anything better, and then knock around the -6 AC'd fool.

Apologies all around for my double posting here, but where is this spell from? Because that's delicious. Cast it on the Blackguard to make him easier to hit. Or heck, hit the Sorceror with it (unless it's a will save, that is) to make him THAT MUCH EASIER to smack.

Flickerdart
2008-07-01, 11:16 AM
Spell Compendium, I think.

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 01:21 PM
but we have Sand Galleys firing BALLISTAS. (If only we could sneak attack...cookie to the person who gets that reference)


You thought I was dead, did not you?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-01, 05:51 PM
You thought I was dead, did not you?


O_o Beef stroganoff!

Actually, I'd give you the picture of the cookie, but I'm not the one with that image hidden somewhere in the depths of my computer. Nor the "The Gazebo is Angered" picture. Or the "Thread Necromancer" MTG card. I need to get cracking on that.

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 06:17 PM
No worries.

:smallbiggrin:

Deth Muncher
2008-07-01, 09:30 PM
Right, so here's a new approach: We're going to invest more time in the Navy idea. Specifically, the Navy of Admiral Crunch (or whatever name he chooses to use at the time. His actual name in the campaign is Rayne Summers. He roleplays Rayne very...very well. The DM even gave him an extra CHA point for being him.) We acquired another ship today, as well as ransacking an evil evil town.

Our party has also gained ANOTHER member...a slightly Min/Maxed Ranger (he's got 5 attacks! With the first three modifiers being +13/+13/+8...). This guy gives Belkar a run for his money in terms of efficiency (although they do share the trait of not having any clue as to what their ranger abilities do). Currently, our flotilla (or, well, driftilla, considering we're on sand...) consists of 3 Sand Galleys, a small scouting ship, as well as a large Galleon being commissioned. The two Galleys we had before today are equipped with 6 Ballistas as well as under-sand rams. The schooner (although it isn't a schooner, I just forget the word for it) has a single ballista.

I guess technically we use the same tactics as seige-towers. I mean, basically, before we got our third Galley, we basically broadsided the town and shot down the walls with ballista bolts. Any new thoughts?

Flickerdart
2008-07-01, 10:04 PM
I remember something about the Launch Bolt cantrip and Colossal bolts from Bags of Holding from another thread. May have been my idea, or someone else's. Regardless, this shouldn't be difficult to do. You could use some sort of spells to dry out their water supply, then they die and you raise them as a zombie army and wipe your enemies off the face of the desert...oh right, Good party. How does Good win a war of attrition?

Deth Muncher
2008-07-01, 11:05 PM
I remember something about the Launch Bolt cantrip and Colossal bolts from Bags of Holding from another thread. May have been my idea, or someone else's. Regardless, this shouldn't be difficult to do. You could use some sort of spells to dry out their water supply, then they die and you raise them as a zombie army and wipe your enemies off the face of the desert...oh right, Good party. How does Good win a war of attrition?

Interesting thing, I remembered the same thing. And another sorceror has it. I told him to launch ballista bolts with it. The DM let it go.

And as to drying their water supply? They've got one of those waterskins that refills every d4 hours. I took the step up and bought the Decanter of Endless Water.