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Vulion
2008-06-29, 09:33 PM
As the title says, I am asking whether or not said prestige class is worth going into from your own personal experiences. Gonna be playing a campaign with just core and Forgotten Realms classes only.

Cuddly
2008-06-29, 09:41 PM
Depends: what level are you starting at?
At low levels, it's not really worth it. Higher up- maybe.

Arbitrarity
2008-06-29, 09:42 PM
Depends. Are you a wizard, looking for sneak attack/skills, or a rogue looking for some magic? If the former, NO. If the latter, than generally, yes.

Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-06-29, 10:09 PM
It really depends on what you want the character to do. It's good for a non-melee sneak attacker spellcaster hybrid character, whereas Daggerspell Mage is probably your best bet for a melee sneak attacker spellcaster. Most successful Arcane Tricksters I've seen have used sneak attacks with ranged touch attacks, due to the prohibitively low BAB of such builds.

One optimized high-level build I've seen goes Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10, adding the AT spellcasting to Wizard for 6th level spells and a 10d6 sneak attack at level 20, though with only a +11 BAB. Be sure to get Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard, along with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot with a high Dex and a variety of ray spells. Strongheart Halfling would be especially good for this due to their Dex bonus and the attack and AC bonuses for size, or use Whisper Gnome (RoS) if possible. Be sure to pick up Wizard before 5th level so you can spend Rogue skill points on getting the ranks needed for Assassin.

If possible be sure to check the Spell Compendium for ranged touch spells, especially the Orb spells or the lower-level Ray of Flame and Ray of Ice. Note that if you make a sneak attack or use point blank shot with a spell that doesn't deal hit point damage, you add hit point damage of whatever damage type would be appropriate to the spell. For example, Enervation deals its normal energy drain, and Sneak Attack and PBS add additional negative energy damage.

This actually turns out to be a superb character for filling the roles of skillmonkey, utility spellcaster, and short range damage dealer. You may want to see if your DM will allow characters to qualify for Assassin with a nongood alignment, rather than the requirement to be evil-aligned.

Nebo_
2008-06-29, 10:20 PM
Arcane Trickster is for filling after Unseen Seer.



One optimized high-level build I've seen goes Rogue 4/ Wizard 1/ Assassin 5/ Arcane Trickster 10

Which part of that is optimised?

Chronos
2008-06-30, 12:54 AM
Arcane Trickster is absolutely not worth it. The only worthwhile thing it advances is spellcasting, and there are a lot of better wizard spellcasting PrCs (including Loremaster and Archmage, if you're playing core-only). It doesn't give enough skill points to be usable for a rogue.

If you want a class for combining rogue with wizard, go with Unseen Seer. After you finish that, then you can decide whether you want to finish with a wizard class or a rogue class. And even if you decide on wizard, you're still probably better off going with something else.

Alternately, just play a beguiler straight through. That way, you can be a mage/thief starting from level 1, and you never need to lose caster levels.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-06-30, 02:01 AM
If I recall, the only use I've heard of for Arcane Trickster's is to take a level of Archmage and then perform sneak attacks with that high arcana that lets you burn spells to shoot damaging rays.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-30, 02:43 AM
If you want a class for combining rogue with wizard, go with Unseen Seer. After you finish that, then you can decide whether you want to finish with a wizard class or a rogue class.

Yes, but I believe AT has a better sneak attack progression, so Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster 10 would net you the most extra damage dice. Although staying in Unseen Seer long enough to get hunter's eye is also highly useful.

Chronos
2008-06-30, 12:30 PM
Yes, but I believe AT has a better sneak attack progression, so Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster 10 would net you the most extra damage dice.Like I said, spells are the only worthwhile thing advanced by AT. Blasting (by any means) is subpar in 3.x.

Cuddly
2008-06-30, 03:23 PM
Blasting (by any means) is subpar in 3.x.

Not necessarily. I've played in many games where blasting is just fine (by any means). As long as your enemy has finite HP.

Toliudar
2008-07-01, 01:08 AM
Is Unseen from Forgotten Realms? See restrictions in OP.

For the feeling of the magic-dabbling rogue, AT does just fine. It does lose a lot of caster levels for a more casting-defined character. Unfortunately, I don't know the FR expansions well enough to suggest an alternative. Anyone know what Harper Mage is like?

Frosty
2008-07-01, 01:24 AM
Would you charcterize the beguiler as magic-dabbling rogue or a sneaky-dabbling mage?

KoDT69
2008-07-01, 07:43 AM
I understand the supposed bonuses to the Unseen Seer and have made this comparison on my own in the past. Gaining +X caster level on Divination and -X caster level on everything else guarantees you will have to burn a feat on Practiced Spellcaster which is kinda crappy. Divination is awesome, yes I get it, please save your breath on that point. But both classes are sub-par at low level. Add to that I prefer the Sorcerer to the Wizard. I went 1 Rogue / 5 Sorcerer / 1 Unseen Seer / X Arcane Trickster. With Wizard you can get in one level faster. Overall my build was only 1 caster level lower than normal, or 1 spell level behind the single-classed Wizard. Creative uses of lower level spells count for a lot more than you might think. There's a reason that your theoretical Wizard uber-builds still use 3rd and 5th level spells... because they're useful! After taking this sub-par, limited, and overall waste of character sheet in the general opinion of any D&D forum discussions, by 20th level and using the custom spell creation guidelines to make... yes I'm going there... custom energy ray blasty spells up to 25d6 base (DMG, dice vs. spell level guidelines)! Using the metamagic specialist, quicken spell, split ray, energy admixture, and twin spell... the d6's slamming the table would have been enough to make most DM's cry. Altogether that character was dropping 38d6 on 2 targets (quickened split ray) and another 68d6 each to start off the battle. That's 371 damage on average to 2 different targets, or drop the top end to change in Twin Spell in place of Split Ray to hit the same target with all of it (maybe more like 582 average instead)! Impromptu Sneak Attack and Ranged Ledgerdemain are your friends! The Unseen Seer doesn't get those! If advancing into epic levels, this is a really solid character. By 24th level you can still have Epic Spellcasting plus all of the Roguey goodness. Blasting is as sub-par as you let it be! I don't give 2 goblin carcasses if anybody thinks this was the best use of a high level character, it was FUN and useful in every. single. encounter. I always pulled my share or more every fight. Don't underestimate alternate class features :smallwink: