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AjaxTorbin
2008-06-30, 12:21 AM
these are house rules my group likes to use. recently we were told they suck.
what do you think playground?

MAGIC:
Spell points. Magic is kept track of through spell points as shown in Unearthed Arcana. However, the extra cost for extra damage dice is ignored.
Any spells that take use of dimensions or planar travel are out. As is teleport and all teleport related spells. Resurrection all its related spells are non-existent.
Any spell over the level of fifth is rare and powerful. Casters who gain spells over this rank instead just add spell points as normal.

COMBAT:
Armor as damage reduction. As shown in Unearthed Arcana.
Debilitating Attacks; any time a character takes damage equal to or more than their Constitution SCORE, (NOT modifier) PLUS his character level in one attack he takes -1 to all skills, attacks, and AC. This penalty stacks with itself. This includes nonlethal damage. For monsters use their hit dice plus CR to determine this if necessary.
Wounded: when a character is at half of his hit points he is wounded and takes -2 to all actions and saves and -10 to all movement modes.
Massive damage threshold: 25 or more damage in one blow the target makes a save, he may add his hit dice+ one stat modifier, or he becomes stunned. 50 or more, a save is made or unconsciousness occurs. The DC is twenty-five for each
Parry Mode: taking a full round action the character may add his base attack bonus to his armor class.

CHARACTER CREATION:
All characters start at level two.
Point Buy System: All stats start at ten. You have 24 points and each stat point is one for one. No stats over 20 allowed before adding racial bonuses. You may ‘buy down’ stats to 8.
‘0' level: In the Unearthed Arcana book there are three ‘generic’ classes these along with the NPC classes from the dungeon masters guide, one level of one of these may taken at character creation. This zero level does not count toward cross-classing limits.
Skills: Spot and listen are now Awareness. Hide and Move Silently are now Stealth. Balance, Climb and Jump are now Athletics. All Craft skills are now just Craft.
All knowledge skills are now just Knowledge (if a class gives you a specific knowledge you may take it as a Focused Skill that does not count toward your limit of focused skills) All Perform skills are now just Perform.
Focused Skills. Each is a specific thing that the character does well. A character may have five skill focuses. Each counts as a class skill. The character must have at least three points in the parent skill to have a focus in that skill. A focused skill rank may be no higher than the characters level. Effect: when using that specific skill one may add the focus bonus to the skill check roll. Skill focus does not add any external modifiers such as any stat modifiers or bard song. Example: Repositioning, while using Tumble to move around a single opponent add your skill focus. So this focus does not apply when moving through a opponents space, out of combat tumble checks, or when threatened by more than one opponent.

and yes, we like a 'gritty' death-prone setting

Note: i forgot to add that we used a VERY toned down, out of combat-Bluffing and Diplomacy skill set.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-06-30, 01:10 AM
Personally? I like some of them and dislike others...but the end result is this: If you and your group are happy with the rules as you use them, don't let anyone else's opinion sway you into changing your game. Whoever told you they suck is obviously looking for a different game than you are, and that's a perfectly valid mindset (telling you your rules suck, on the other hand, is NOT cool).

So do I like them? Eh. I'm ambivalent to them...I see nothing I HATE, but nothing that really stands out to me either. But that's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

onasuma
2008-06-30, 01:16 AM
Well, they all seem to make sense and work for you. Thats whats important.
Unlike Djinn, there is one rule there i loath. Grouping skills that only have a very loose connection. Awarness, maybe, but the other ones dont work for me. How is having amazing balance going to help you jump over a 15ft crater? How is learning to make bows going to help you when is comes to constructs? Those dont make sense to be.

Dustfinger
2008-06-30, 05:31 AM
I am actualy a large fan of most of these house rules.

MAGIC
-Magic Points are a good idea, i still think the entire magic system in DnD needs to be re-vamped, but thats just me...
-Restricting spells is also a good thing. Casters get very very powerful at higher levels, I dont care how good a fighter is, they can't handle Weird after Weird after Weird and come out sane, or even alive.

COMBAT
-I do believe that Armor as Damage Reduction should have been in the actual 3.5 rules rather than it being a variant. It just makes so much more sense to me than just being harder to hit.
-Debilitating attacks and the Massive Damage threashold are nice my question is, do their penalties stack with each other?
-A Parrying mode is something that DnD has been missing (to my knowledge) for years. I will most likelyy put a Parry Mode similar to yours in the next game I DM.

CHARACTER CREATION
-Level two is nice. My favorite starting level is either 3-4. I loathe starting level one. I don't feel like I can have a backstory and I always overthink it.
-I'm not a fan of Point Buy, I personaly like letting the dice fall how they may and you dealing with it. You didnt get to choose how Dextrous and Smart you would be when you are born, why should you here. I know you can train yourself to be better at these, but not to this extent. Putting all that aside this is better than the regular Point Buy System. Alot less complicated and could lead to some generaly diverse characters.
-I'm not sure if I understand your "0 Level" class system. I'd love to give you my opinion, but i'm pretty confused. I would like for you to PM me if you'd be so kind and explain it more.
-Skills... While some of these I love the fact that they are combined, Stealth, Awareness. Some just make no sense, such as Craft and Perform. I can kind of see Knowledge and Athletics, but they're on the fence.
-Skill Focus' seem very nice. This is where you would go back and diversify the combined skills again, would it not. Getting a skill focus in Climbing under the Athletics skill. It seems like this would be for all skills, since you used Tumble as the example. I like the idea, this is most likely the only set of rules in which I would try Feinting because I could be so could at it. So a level 5 character could have a base of +13 when using a skill in a certain way (such as Feithing with Bluff), +8 Skill Ranks +5 Focus? If you could include this clarification in the PM you may or may not send, it would also be appreciated.


Overall I like the Ideas, The skills was really the only place where you truely lost me. Perform I think was the exact skill. Cause I know I can sing, but if you put an instrument in front of me saying, "You can sing, here play this flute!" You would not be very happy with the sounds that erupted from that disgraced instrument.

EDIT: On a differant note, if you are ever planning to start a game on these forums using these rules, PM me I would be very interested to see how they all flow together in game.

Fawsto
2008-06-30, 12:33 PM
Yeah... Well, I will just say something about Armor as DR...

Specialy how it is described at unhearted arcana.

At the first base levels, it owns, after 8th or 10th things start to change, driving those armor depending buddies into a deeper oblivion.

Why? Because Armors giving DR, as describe in UA, "level up" in a lower rate than damage. Creatures will begin to increase in size and base damage while your poor armor will still protect you for like, DR 6, against those nasty dragon claws, giant axes and etc.

IMO, the system should be something more like a mix between Armor Class and DR. Let the Armors have their normal protective bonus that makes you harder to hit while when you really take a hit, it makes the blow less painful.


Back to topic: Yeah, magic points and restricted spells are really, really what lacks to 3.5 casters vs. meleers balance. It is a nice first step. If you like them, keep them, I am always fond to anything that makes the group happy.

AjaxTorbin
2008-06-30, 12:40 PM
I am actualy a large fan of most of these house rules.

COMBAT
-Debilitating attacks and the Massive Damage threashold are nice my question is, do their penalties stack with each other?
-A Parrying mode is something that DnD has been missing (to my knowledge) for years. I will most likelyy put a Parry Mode similar to yours in the next game I DM.

CHARACTER CREATION
-I'm not a fan of Point Buy, I personaly like letting the dice fall how they may and you dealing with it. You didnt get to choose how Dextrous and Smart you would be when you are born, why should you here. I know you can train yourself to be better at these, but not to this extent. Putting all that aside this is better than the regular Point Buy System. Alot less complicated and could lead to some generaly diverse characters.
-I'm not sure if I understand your "0 Level" class system. I'd love to give you my opinion, but i'm pretty confused. I would like for you to PM me if you'd be so kind and explain it more.
-Skills... While some of these I love the fact that they are combined, Stealth, Awareness. Some just make no sense, such as Craft and Perform. I can kind of see Knowledge and Athletics, but they're on the fence.
-Skill Focus' seem very nice. This is where you would go back and diversify the combined skills again, would it not. Getting a skill focus in Climbing under the Athletics skill. It seems like this would be for all skills, since you used Tumble as the example. I like the idea, this is most likely the only set of rules in which I would try Feinting because I could be so could at it. So a level 5 character could have a base of +13 when using a skill in a certain way (such as Feithing with Bluff), +8 Skill Ranks +5 Focus? If you could include this clarification in the PM you may or may not send, it would also be appreciated.

Overall I like the Ideas, The skills was really the only place where you truely lost me. Perform I think was the exact skill. Cause I know I can sing, but if you put an instrument in front of me saying, "You can sing, here play this flute!" You would not be very happy with the sounds that erupted from that disgraced instrument.


Debilitating attacks, wounded, and the Massive Damage threashold DO stack, the idea is that as damage is taken , it is harder to do things.

Parry mode is an ALLMOST direct rip from Neverwnter Nights the PC game.

To tell you the truth i personaly prefer a more random method, but this method gives a more 'even' set of skills and like you said, it's easy to use. and these are good things, cause we have members who like to bring in, say, cousin fred for one or two sessions, and first time players get this method far easer than most.

As for the Skills, this, the parent perform skill is more accuritely teh 'entertain' skill, it is how well the character can hold teh 'lime light' as it were. if there is a spicific thing you do to do that, you get a focused skill, in say, flute playing.
in one game we had a bard who took max ranks of 'Perform' and then added max ranks of Focus: Lute. he used perform to catch the audiance, like shouting his name into a crowd, saying how good he was, then he made a focused lute check to see who well he actualy played.
with this method the bard didn't have to actulay pull out his lute in combat, his perform check could be a rousing speach, or stiring shout of, "For the Glory!", but if really wanted to stir the emotions, out came the lute.

As for the '0level' i will PM.

AjaxTorbin
2008-06-30, 01:10 PM
Yeah... Well, I will just say something about Armor as DR...

IMO, the system should be something more like a mix between Armor Class and DR. Let the Armors have their normal protective bonus that makes you harder to hit while when you really take a hit, it makes the blow less painful.
.

That IS how it works in Unearthed Arcana:
Chain Shirt gives; armor bonus +2 and damage reduction 2/-
full plate gives armor bonus +4 and Damage reduction 4/-
the armor's damage reduction does not 'level up'. it remains consistant.

(now in my campain world i let some things add to DR)

Prophaniti
2008-06-30, 05:51 PM
I like most of 'em, whoever told you they suck can go rot. Or find another group.

Spell points has intrigued me, but I've yet to try them myself in-game. I like your spell restrictions as well. Combat rules are fine, I do enjoy a more dangerous setting, as it encourages my group to come up with ideas besides 'kick in the door and kill everyone'. Not that there's anything wrong with that approach, I just find we default to it very easily.

I do have to add my voice about the skill combining just not making sense in the case of Craft, Perform, and Knowledge. I don't really have an issue with combining Spot and Listen, or Hide and Move Silently, though I usually keep them seperate anyway. My usual fix for skills (not counting truly broken ones like Diplomacy) is just to increase the skill points everyone gets. The skills themselves work for me, the d20 default rules just don't seem to want to give a realistic amount of skill points to anyone except rogues.

Other than that, looks great. I'll be taking some ideas from it, myself.

mikeejimbo
2008-06-30, 07:27 PM
Well, they all seem to make sense and work for you. Thats whats important.
Unlike Djinn, there is one rule there i loath. Grouping skills that only have a very loose connection. Awarness, maybe, but the other ones dont work for me. How is having amazing balance going to help you jump over a 15ft crater? How is learning to make bows going to help you when is comes to constructs? Those dont make sense to be.

Tell that to 4E

AjaxTorbin
2008-06-30, 07:35 PM
I like most of 'em, whoever told you they suck can go rot. Or find another group.

Spell points has intrigued me, but I've yet to try them myself in-game. I like your spell restrictions as well. Combat rules are fine, I do enjoy a more dangerous setting, as it encourages my group to come up with ideas besides 'kick in the door and kill everyone'. Not that there's anything wrong with that approach, I just find we default to it very easily.

I do have to add my voice about the skill combining just not making sense in the case of Craft, Perform, and Knowledge. I don't really have an issue with combining Spot and Listen, or Hide and Move Silently, though I usually keep them seperate anyway. My usual fix for skills (not counting truly broken ones like Diplomacy) is just to increase the skill points everyone gets. The skills themselves work for me, the d20 default rules just don't seem to want to give a realistic amount of skill points to anyone except rogues.




Exactaly. i like a good monster fight to the gory death as much as the next guy, but whenever i or my group tell stories about characters it always teh out of combat things that we recall most fondly.

As for the skills, i'll go farther into detail.
for Craft, i myself can change a car's oil, can install harddrives on computers, have framed a house and strung electrical wires.
for all this i say, have a Craft skill of 5. add a +3 inteligence bonus, BAM +8 to all those. now, i can also run LAN, maintain a server hub, write some code, and build computers from the ground up. so in this example i have say, a Skill Focus in Craft:Computers about +2. so when working on computers, and only computers, i can add another 2 to my +8, letting me shine as a +10 computer repairman. This is at level 2.
basicly we have in the past lamented that there is now way to keep track of general knowledge, or a general repair ability, or a general ability to entertain, we have a guy who can tell jokes, do hand stands and recite shakespear backwards, entertaining in very general way, BUT he can also play the paino, quite well as a matter of fact. BUT, can he put on a good show while playing the piano. there is a bar in St. louis, where they have a couple of piano players, they take requests, do stunts, tell jokes, quite frankly their piano skills are average at best, BUT they entertain. quite well, that bar is allways standing room only.
we combined the skills as such to alow a average level in a field if one so desires. some people are very athletic, they can jump, climb and have better balance than most, but olimpic athletes they are not.
with this method of skills you can have an idea of things with out knowing details. like with Knowledge. i'll use myself again, I know history, geography, math, some politics and religion. these are represented as a skill: Knowledge.
now in college i have been learning more about History and Mathmatics, so i have a detailed understanding of these. in game i would have Knowledge: 5 ranks and Focuses in Math and History. in game play this does step on the Bard's toes, but, in eight years of play we have had 2 bards. played by the same guy who didn't think it was a big deal that others in the party had a general knowledge of things. he just had a more detailed understanding, having been out of the kingdom we were based in. (to balance this Bard thing we set the general Knowledge skill DC's higher)

hope this clarfied things.
~Ajax~


I like most of 'em, whoever told you they suck can go rot. Or find another group.


we did tell him as such, and he has agreed to complain less.

Prophaniti
2008-07-01, 09:07 AM
Ah, that makes more sense now. Not bad, I can see that working out ok, though I don't feel Focus gives enough of a bonus for those that are trained in a particular skill. What I would do is simply add Knowledge (General), Perform (General), Craft (General), ect to the skill list. These skills could be used to attempt anything within the field of the skill, though depending on the complexity the DC would go up significantly. Ex: a Craft skill check to make or repair a wagon wheel. If you use Craft (General), the DC is, say, 20, whereas if you have ranks in Craft (Wheelwright), the DC is 15 or less. Ranks in a (General) skill and a specialized skill would stack with regard to using the specialized skill, under most circumstances. I think I'll try that out in my campaigns.

AjaxTorbin
2008-07-01, 05:37 PM
Ah, that makes more sense now. Not bad, I can see that working out ok, though I don't feel Focus gives enough of a bonus for those that are trained in a particular skill. What I would do is simply add Knowledge (General), Perform (General), Craft (General), ect to the skill list. These skills could be used to attempt anything within the field of the skill, though depending on the complexity the DC would go up significantly. Ex: a Craft skill check to make or repair a wagon wheel. If you use Craft (General), the DC is, say, 20, whereas if you have ranks in Craft (Wheelwright), the DC is 15 or less. Ranks in a (General) skill and a specialized skill would stack with regard to using the specialized skill, under most circumstances. I think I'll try that out in my campaigns.

one of the variant methods for this rule we used alowed players to add a stat to their focus skill, and another let the focus skill cap at the standard level+3 max ranks. (so a forth level character could have a parent skill at +7 ranks and a Focused Skill at +7 ranks)
we found this let characters go alittle TOO far overboard, as we had to check the Epic hadbook for skill uses when we reached tenth level.
But yea you got the idea. the things i would watch out for though is a skill 'twinker', watch for over bluffing and dipomacy(crack) checks.

Note: i forgot to add that we used a VERY toned down Bluff and Diplomacy skill set.

Prophaniti
2008-07-01, 06:39 PM
yeah, I use the Giant's diplomacy fix. You should check it out if you haven't yet, it's in the Gaming section, along with a pretty good polymorph fix. Bluff, I mostly just up the DCs, especially with the more ridiculous bluffs, and take circumstances into account more. Usually I just play that one by ear.