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quiet1mi
2008-06-30, 12:50 AM
I am going to play in my friend's Eberron campaign and I was wondering which is better for a support role... a changeling beguiler or changeling rogue or a changeling sorcerer...

I chose changeling for a few reasons, the biggest reason was their shape shifting ability at will, that never gets old and the lack of dragon marks, that are too confusing for me to optimize so I do not want to deal with them..

wadledo
2008-06-30, 01:00 AM
Here's my simple rule of thumb:

Sorcerer= Fireball Monster

Beguiler= Charm Monster

Rogue= Sneak Attack Monster

It really all depends on what you want to do.

Lots of magic, medium to none non-combat support? Sorcerer.

Good amount of magic(mostly situational though), large amount of non-combat support? Beguiler.

No magic, but better than the other two at almost everything not magic related? Rogue.

Chronos
2008-06-30, 01:02 AM
It depends on what you mean by "support". Both a sorcerer and a rogue can provide support, but of completely different types.

That said, the beguiler is pretty much the best of both worlds. Sure, they have a limited spell list, but they're mostly pretty good spells, and 6 skill points and their broad skill list lets them fill in the rogue role quite nicely as well. The only drawback of beguiler compared to sorcerer or rogue is that you won't do much damage, but damage doesn't win battles in 3.x, anyway (and it's completely useless outside of battles).

Solo
2008-06-30, 01:06 AM
Beguilers have a lot of enchantment and illusion spells, less things like Disintigrate and Flesh to Stone.

AjaxTorbin
2008-06-30, 01:12 AM
as having played each of those three thikng i feell qualified to respond to this.

and that answer is it depends on what you wish your 'backup' role to be. (i say backup because those are mostly 'backup type characters)

begiler is nice. the one i played i took improved feint, so i could feint twice a round if i wished. then i took adaptive flanker, which alowed me to choose from what space i 'stood' for flanking porpases.
with this build i made a very nice flanking buddy character, i provided a flanking buddy who could throw in the odd charm once in a while. all while trying to silver tounge away most problems. (i convinced a beholder to attack a dragon at one point)
i would say this character is great if you want a surviver, your real 'con man' as it were. if you do play one a tip: when the goings get tough, the beguiler gets going, and invisabilty is your friend

Sorcerer. unless you have a prestige class in mind i would be carful with this one. these have a tendincy to become 'one trick ponys' as in, 'Oh look, the Sorc did another fireball, who saw that comming?'

rogue. rogue changeling. allways the cheese this is. if you choose this one, much fun you will have, to paraphrase master yoda. first, you have GOT to be Chaotic Netural,then the fun starts. if you do it right the party will never know who, or what you really are. and then theres the whole side job; theft.
whenever you're in town you can ripoff the odd house or two.
and then if you get a suit of glamered armor, (the one that alows you to change its apperance at will) you can have fun in combat. IE, you sneak off and comback looking EXACTLY like another Hobgoblin. (hijinks then ensue)

but in the end there are two main things for you to consider:
1 what YOU want to play IE what you think you would have the most fun playing.
2 what would work well with the party and your group.

Nebo_
2008-06-30, 01:14 AM
The sorcerer will provide the best support, depending on your spell selection.

Solo
2008-06-30, 01:14 AM
Sorcerer. unless you have a prestige class in mind i would be carful with this one. these have a tendincy to become 'one trick ponys' as in, 'Oh look, the Sorc did another fireball, who saw that comming?'


If only there was some sort of guide for sorcerers...

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-30, 01:20 AM
Would you be using the Racial Substitution levels if you picked the Rogue? I know Changeling Rogues get a couple of extra skill points and some other skills, but at least 1 substitution costs you Trapfinding. (Crystal Keep's down at the minute, so I can't check the class at the minute).

Chronicled
2008-06-30, 02:59 AM
Beguilers are possibly the most fun class to play, if your DM isn't hostile to a character who can sidestep the plot. They can be quite difficult to kill, and do a great support job debuffing (they have a few buffs too) in combat. The real place they shine is out of combat support. Unlike what AjaxTorbin said, you shouldn't worry about feinting in combat; in fact, other than his last paragraph, his advice isn't really accurate (Sorcerers as one-trick ponies? Only if you are trying to make one that way.)


Would you be using the Racial Substitution levels if you picked the Rogue? I know Changeling Rogues get a couple of extra skill points and some other skills, but at least 1 substitution costs you Trapfinding. (Crystal Keep's down at the minute, so I can't check the class at the minute).

But it lets you take 10 on Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Info, and Sense Motive. In addition to other bonuses AND 10 skill points. One of the best racial substitution levels out there. Hardly begins to qualify as "cheese," though.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-30, 04:45 AM
Beguilers are possibly the most fun class to play,

I second that; in my opinion, the beguiler combines the best parts of the sorcerer and the rogue. Well, unless you want blasting spells or sneak attack.

I would actually ignore the beguiler's Cloaked and Surprise Casting abilities; they're nice when they happen, but the bonuses they give are too small to warrant building your character around. Instead I'd recommend spending feats on metamagic, perhaps a reserve or two, and arcane disciple. And imp init, of course.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-30, 05:03 AM
Wouldn't the loss of Trapfinding be a problem unless someone else in the group could do it? Apart from that it is quite a good substitution. For anyone who doesn't know about Crysttal Keep, it's mentioned on page 103 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf .

Kurald Galain
2008-06-30, 05:07 AM
Wouldn't the loss of Trapfinding be a problem unless someone else in the group could do it?

Beguilers do have trapfinding.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-30, 05:56 AM
Sorry about being unclear (I was refering to the Changeling Racial Substitute levels).

Reinboom
2008-06-30, 06:04 AM
Sorry about being unclear (I was refering to the Changeling Racial Substitute levels).

Or a wand of summon monster instead. :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-30, 06:06 AM
The DM could easily get around that method by having traps which instantly rearm themselves as woon as they go off.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 06:30 AM
The DM could easily get around that method by having traps which instantly rearm themselves as woon as they go off.
Once you locate the trap, it's dead. There are other ways to nullify a trap than trapfinding - they can be physically destroyed, for instance. This is where reserve feats come in handy.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-30, 06:36 AM
What sort of Reserve Feats would help with traps?

Chronicled
2008-06-30, 07:19 AM
I second that; in my opinion, the beguiler combines the best parts of the sorcerer and the rogue. Well, unless you want blasting spells or sneak attack.

I would actually ignore the beguiler's Cloaked and Surprise Casting abilities; they're nice when they happen, but the bonuses they give are too small to warrant building your character around. Instead I'd recommend spending feats on metamagic, perhaps a reserve or two, and arcane disciple. And imp init, of course.

A few other top-notch ones are Unsettling Enchantment (CM) [give enemies -2 AC, -2 to hit for a round even if they make the save against your Enchantments], Mastery of Twisted Shadow (PGtE) [Give yourself concealment for free whenever you cast an Illusion spell, for rounds=spell's level], and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) [Look ma, I'm a Warlock! Seriously, running out of useful spells when you have this feat is hard to do as a Beguiler.]. The Beguiler's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=986810) on the WotC boards also has some great suggestions.

Edit: Oh, and Action Surge (I'd initially missed that you were in Eberron). Action Surge is just too good to not take, especially as a Beguiler--since you don't make attack rolls, you only really need Action Points to boost the important saving throws. Actions are the most valuable resource in D&D, and an easy source of extra ones is superb.

Chronos
2008-06-30, 12:22 PM
There are a bunch of other classes that get trapfinding at first level, though. So you take the first level of rogue with the substitution level, then you dip ninja (or factotum, or beguiler, or spellthief, or psychic rogue, or scout), and you haven't really lost anything. And I think that rogue is the favored class for changelings, so you wouldn't even take an xp penalty.

Burley
2008-06-30, 12:36 PM
I, personally, would say Rogue for the sneaky and Sorcerer for the Magicks. Beguiler is a great class, don't get me wrong, but mixing that with Changeling will probably have you stealing the spotlight instead of supporting, which will annoy your DM, or your party mates, or both. (One of my players is a Doppleganger Beguiler, and his spells are ending battles during the first round, and he usually wins initiative. I'm giving Iron Will to dinosaurs, just to keep them from falling under his control...)


What sort of Reserve Feats would help with traps?

There's one in Complete Mage that lets you summon an Earth Elemental as long as you have an [Earth] spell. Same thing with [Air], [Fire], and [Water]. There are lots of reserve feats that'd help a Sorcerer...but I don't think any that'd help a Beguiler. Except maybe the one that blinds an enemy...

Frosty
2008-06-30, 12:41 PM
What kind of game was your DM running? A doppleganger Beguiler should be sucking, not dominating. Level Adjustments are crap for spellcasters. It may be that the Dm keeps on running encounters with NO will saves whatsoever, which could be a problem, but still, go changeling, not doppleganger.

Tempest Fennac
2008-06-30, 12:56 PM
Frosty, quiet1mi is using a Changeling. Thanks for explaining about the reserve feats (they sound really powerful). In regards to taking your 2nd level as a different skill monkey class for Trapfinding, how would you justify that from a fluff perspective? (I could understand a different type of class fitting in, but I'm not sure about taking levels in similar classes).

Jerthanis
2008-06-30, 12:59 PM
I'm of the opinion that Beguilers > Wizards below level 10, even outside their supposed specialty of mind-affecting magic. They have Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Haste, Slow, Improved Invisibility and several other encounter-ending abilities along with their full-skillmonkey skillset that has solid synergy with their casting stat. They gain access to more spells than a wizard can reasonably hope to have in his book, and can cast them spontaneously as they need them off that list. Admittedly, past level 10 or so they really start losing out in the long run over other full casters, but if you're not going higher, you'll be golden.

It takes brutal cheese to make a sorcerer better than a beguiler at anything significant below level 10 and the beguiler will most likely come within a hairsbreadth of a rogue in pure skill.

Frosty
2008-06-30, 01:09 PM
Even above level 10, Beguilers are never useless. Advanced learning is the key. Pick the right spell for the job. also, some DMs allow Eccletic learning in place of Advanced learning. Then you REALLY have options. Your beguiler being able to sling around Orb spells or a Disintegrate? Golden. Or polymorph? Hell ya.



It takes brutal cheese to make a sorcerer better than a beguiler at anything significant below level 10.

Sorcerers are better at blasting certainly. Is blasting significant below level 10?

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 03:40 PM
What sort of Reserve Feats would help with traps?
Elemental Summong - lets you summon a Small/Medium/Large (based on the spell level) elemental (pick one of Earth, Air, Fire, Water) as long as you have a Conjouration(Summoning) spell prepared (or, for a spontaneous caster, known with a free slot of that level) of 4th/6th/8th level or higher. Basically, this one gives you a way to trigger traps. There's some limits (it vanishes if it's not within 30 feet of you at the end of your turn, you can only have one out at a time, the summoning effect ends after a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell you're using to power it). Use it every round, and have an earth elemental run ahead of you. This will find you basically all traps that aren't particularly discriminatory or subtle - and basically all of the traps that'll be discriminatory enough to ignore an elemental, or subtle enough that you're not likely to see the effect on an elemental will be magical in nature; for those, you use Arcane Sight to find them (there's a few exceptions - poison spread on doorknobs, for instance - but those you can bypass simply by having your elemental open all doors, and avoiding touching stuff directly).

Then you just pick up one of the direct-damage reserve feats so that you can physically destroy the trap once it is located. Any one of Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle, or Acidic Splatter will generally take care of it.

Now, your DM can build against the tactic - a discriminatory magic trap with that nifty 1st level, days/level, Magic Aura spell on it will still catch you - but you'll get 99% of the traps in the game with no roll of consequence in this manner ... assuming you don't mind being noisy about it and taking your time.

All of these feats are from in Complete Mage, by the way.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-06-30, 07:04 PM
If I may:

Sorcerers can be the best at buffing and party support, particularly when backed up by War Weaver. Everyone's got craptons of buffs. Repeatable for an insane number of times, since you're a sorcerer and not a wizard. War Weaver lets you drop a NUMBER of buffs on the whole PARTY as a single move action. Choose the right ones, and dayum. This gets even better when you get to pick up things like Arcane Disciple to pick up the few buffs clerics get that Sorcerer's don't get access to.

Rogues are skillmonkeys and situational damage output. With the right build, they can compete with even a FB build as far as raw damage output, as long as your opponent isn't immune to precision-based damage. Paired with something that gives them a LOT of attacks (Master Thrower's Palm Shot, for example), and they can be pretty sick.

Beguilers are skillmonkeys and lockdown magic. They don't get sneak attack, they don't generally need it. They can shut down hordes of opponents, and some scarily nasty ones too. Immunity to mind-affecting is their bane, just like immunity to precision-based damage is the Rogue's. For Ultra-Cheeze and uber late-game power for drastically reduced short-term power, go with Rainbow Servant to get all cleric spells added to your list.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 07:29 PM
If I may:

Sorcerers can be the best at buffing and party support, particularly when backed up by War Weaver. Everyone's got craptons of buffs. Repeatable for an insane number of times, since you're a sorcerer and not a wizard. War Weaver lets you drop a NUMBER of buffs on the whole PARTY as a single move action. Choose the right ones, and dayum. This gets even better when you get to pick up things like Arcane Disciple to pick up the few buffs clerics get that Sorcerer's don't get access to.

When you cast a spell from the wand, you're the caster. That Wizard with a wand of Bull's Strength? Yeah, he can cast it into his Weave. Fifty times, before he needs a new wand.

Also - this is a tangent, but the Sorcerer has a different wording in the spellcasting entry than any other class; exactly as the text is written, the Sorcerer is not limited to the Sor/Wiz spell list.


Rogues are skillmonkeys and situational damage output. With the right build, they can compete with even a FB build as far as raw damage output, as long as your opponent isn't immune to precision-based damage. Paired with something that gives them a LOT of attacks (Master Thrower's Palm Shot, for example), and they can be pretty sick.

Dual-wield Effect spells that make them touch attacks. One of my favorites for this is the Druid's Produce Flame. Seven touch attacks/round, at range, at 20th. Plus one, if you're Hasted by either boots or a friendly caster. Pure Core, too. Tends to one-round most things, provided you cast the two Produce Flame spells before the battle starts (and the duration is enough that you can usually get away with that).


Beguilers are skillmonkeys and lockdown magic. They don't get sneak attack, they don't generally need it. They can shut down hordes of opponents, and some scarily nasty ones too. Immunity to mind-affecting is their bane, just like immunity to precision-based damage is the Rogue's. For Ultra-Cheeze and uber late-game power for drastically reduced short-term power, go with Rainbow Servant to get all cleric spells added to your list.
Drastically reduced Long-term power, too - depending on whether or not your DM buys the "text trumps table" that's at the front of the errata. The table for the Rainbow Servant says it loses four caster levels. The text for the Rainbow Servants Spells Known/Spells per day says you get an increase in spells known and spells per day at "every" level.

Chronicled
2008-06-30, 07:42 PM
For Ultra-Cheeze and uber late-game power for drastically reduced short-term power, go with Rainbow Servant to get all cleric spells added to your list.

Whether or not your short term power is reduced depends on your reading of whether caster levels are lost for Rainbow Servant. I am of the belief that they are not.

Edit: Um, I should have hit refresh before I replied. Ninja'd, and HARD.

crazedloon
2008-06-30, 08:07 PM
I love the beguiler so I may be a little skewed as far as my opinion but the Beguiler is a better skill monkey then the rogue.

Now that sounds ridiculous because the rogue has 8+int while the Beguiler has 6+int But I will point out that a beguiler's caster stat is int :smallwink: this means it will be higher if not significantly higher. A rogue will have int as his 3rd highest stat at best (dex for armor + hit (with finesse) Con for hp because a rogue needs to be in combat and needs the hp) this means the beguiler will easily make up the lost 2 skills with his int mod. Then when you compare skill list they are nearly identical and you will find the beguiler has a few better skills and can use certain Magic items without the check.

So really the only advantige the rogue has over the beguiler is its sneak attack damage and we all know damage is worse then save or suck and spells

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 08:19 PM
Whether or not your short term power is reduced depends on your reading of whether caster levels are lost for Rainbow Servant. I am of the belief that they are not.

Technically, per the Errata, text trumps table. So despite the fact that:
1) A few other PrC's in the same book have the same issue (text/table discrepancy on spellcasting progression... and always the text is the one that says it's full progression), which suggests the book had some severe editing issues, and the spellcasting progression block was copy/pasted with minor edits only in a lot of cases.
2) It's listed as "Moderate Spellcasting" on page 20 under the grouping
3) The levels on the table where the table indicates that there's no spellcasting progression are also the levels where the class gets class specials
4) The sample Rainbow Servant has two lost caster levels (which is correct, by the table, for the Sorcerer-6/Rainbow Servant-4 the NPC is listed as being)
... it is, technically, by the rules of primary sources and the listed WotC errata, a full casting progression PrC.

It really, really shouldn't be a full progression PrC, though. As you said - it gets brokenly powerful.


Edit: Um, I should have hit refresh before I replied. Ninja'd, and HARD.Nah, it's more fun this way.

NobleSavage
2008-06-30, 10:07 PM
If you're going Changeling and you're thinking of rogue, you owe it to yourself to check out the Cabinet Trickster. Loses out on the d6s, but 5 levels will net you Detect Thoughts at will. Yuh, at will. You also get abilities tied to this, culminating in stunning your adversaries, rogues like that, right? The improved Change Shape ability (which itself is amazing), bonus feats, impressive Will saves, and perception abilities is just icing. Now, if you want to keep going down this path, maybe pick up a couple levels of Mindspy, and the fun really starts. For you, probably not your DM. If you are debating between sneak and magic, why not pick a sneak who pretends to do magic?




Now that sounds ridiculous because the rogue has 8+int while the Beguiler has 6+int But I will point out that a beguiler's caster stat is int :smallwink: this means it will be higher if not significantly higher. A rogue will have int as his 3rd highest stat at best (dex for armor + hit (with finesse) Con for hp because a rogue needs to be in combat and needs the hp) this means the beguiler will easily make up the lost 2 skills with his int mod.

I'd just like to point out here that the Changeling Rogue levels give 10+Int, and if you max out UMD you can be invisible often enough to make your living shooting off cheap ray wands, arrows even, and never get close enough to be pwned by the big ol' fighter. With the above build you don't really need amazing Dex, 16+magic will work, then bump Cha/Int, just keeping Con in the positives. 14 is pretty standard for Int, making it a total of 12, with a disgusting 48 at first level. 10 per level is the best Beguiler can get early on, and thats with dumping most everything else. You will consistently bump Int, but remember it isn't retroactive, and you gain no skill points for magical enhancements.


So really the only advantige the rogue has over the beguiler is its sneak attack damage and we all know damage is worse then save or suck and spells

Mind Blank (not to mention undead, constructs, and everyone else with Immunity to mind-affecting blah) trumps this, though, for the gut-wrenching "awwww shucks, there goes my usefulness."

Leewei
2008-06-30, 10:13 PM
Curiously, though, most things immune to mind-affecting effects are also immune to Sneak Attacks. Only Vermin stand out as an exception to this.

Collin152
2008-06-30, 10:15 PM
Mind Blank (not to mention undead, constructs, and everyone else with Immunity to mind-affecting blah) trumps this, though, for the gut-wrenching "awwww shucks, there goes my usefulness."

Fortunatley, immunity to Mind Affecting spells does not render you immune to illusions.
And fortunatley, a Beguiler can switch between their strategies on the fly.

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 10:43 PM
Mind Blank (not to mention undead, constructs, and everyone else with Immunity to mind-affecting blah) trumps this, though, for the gut-wrenching "awwww shucks, there goes my usefulness."
... you mean like how Blurr, fortification armor, constructs, undead, and everyone immune to critical hits trumps the Rogue's sneak attack dice?

The Beguiler can simply fall back on illusions, no problem (unless the target also has True Seeing, of course ... but then your DM likely has it out for you, in which case, your build doesn't really matter for that battle).

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 01:21 AM
The Beguiler can simply fall back on illusions, no problem (unless the target also has True Seeing, of course ... but then your DM likely has it out for you, in which case, your build doesn't really matter for that battle).

Illusions, or a number of powerful spells that being mindless won't stop: Glitterdust, Slow, Solid Fog, etc. And if for some reason those aren't helpful, the Beguiler can still Haste the party, toss around some Mage Armors if the enemy is incorporeal, and so on.

Just like the Rogue, the Beguiler can have UMD as an option.


It really, really shouldn't be a full progression PrC, though. As you said - it gets brokenly powerful.

Especially powerful, yes. Brokenly powerful? I don't really think so. Can it match noted powerhouse PrCs such as IotSV, Incantrix, and the like? Not really. At full caster progression, is it a "must-take" PrC? Not really; as a Beguiler you lose out heavily on skills (for a Warmage, on the other hand...), and having all Cleric spells does not a Cleric make.

NobleSavage
2008-07-01, 01:36 AM
... you mean like how Blurr, fortification armor, constructs, undead, and everyone immune to critical hits trumps the Rogue's sneak attack dice?

Thats if you're relying on SA, the build I was proposing wasn't built around it. Trying to point out that Beguilers and Rogues are foiled by the same things, so if you're looking to skillmonkey, Rogue (with the Changeling levels) is better. Not really sure why I was pursuing that. :smallconfused: Kinda trivial.


Now, along those lines, blurr, fortification, etc. totally hoses you, but a wand of gravestrike or golem bane does squeeze a few d6s out relatively easily. Enchantment is still out, though, right? Illusion may help, but I've got a real poor imagination, Elan-like, maybe worse.

Bottom line? I prefer, and would suggest that quiet1mi investigate the glories of, the Changeling Rogue over the Beguiler, as while they are confounded by the same enemies, the rogue's skill points are better, markedly so in most cases. Kinda weak, huh? All of a sudden I'm wondering if I have an irrational love of skillz...

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 01:40 AM
Thats if you're relying on SA, the build I was proposing wasn't built around it. Trying to point out that Beguilers and Rogues are foiled by the same things, so if you're looking to skillmonkey, Rogue (with the Changeling levels) is better. Not really sure why I was pursuing that. :smallconfused: Kinda trivial.

Bottom line? I prefer, and would suggest that quiet1mi investigate the glories of, the Changeling Rogue over the Beguiler, as while they are confounded by the same enemies, the rogue's skill points are better, markedly so in most cases. Kinda weak, huh? All of a sudden I'm wondering if I have an irrational love of skillz...

I'm of the opinion that having lots of skill points AND the ability to give yourself a huge boost to several important checks (Invisibility for +40 to hide, Silence, Glibness for +30 Bluff, etc), you're really a better skillmonkey than someone with more overall skill points.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 01:43 AM
Just looking over the offensive reserve feats: are they worthwhile for things other then setting off traps? I was justwondering because Storm Bolt, http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Storm_Bolt,all , sounds interresting and it apparently doesn't allow a Reflex save.

crazedloon
2008-07-01, 04:21 AM
I'd just like to point out here that the Changeling Rogue levels give 10+Int

Just to point out you only gain the 10+int at the three substitution levels that skill number does not replace the rogues on every level. So it translates into 6 extra skill points for your rogue spread out over 8 levels. Not that impressive.
Then when you consider taking one of the sub levels loses you one of your most important skills (trapfinding) you are most likely going to skip it reducing your improved skill number to 4 over 8 levels.
If you did not forgo your trap finding you may wish to keep trapsense as you will fail a few DCs, but even if you do forgo it trap sense is still effective to keep you from dieing with the rest of the group on the missed trap (because the rogue gave up his finding skills for 2 skill points) which is particularly important since you are not making con a priority because you are depending on range. So if you wish to keep your trapsense and forgo the relatively useless boost to knowledge you lose 2 more skill points now you are down to 2 extra late in skill progression.
And last chance to get extra skill points is perhaps one of the only interesting substitutions as preventing crits is nice.

Ok so looking at this you can nerf your rogue as the skill monkey for an extra 6 skill points.... Doesn't seem to useful to me but I will admit I have not played a changeling rogue

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 04:35 AM
I thought the extra skill points applied to all of the character's levels to be honest (I asssumed that it would list them at the specific levels if it didn't work like that).

Animefunkmaster
2008-07-01, 04:37 AM
I have two questions to make this easier:

Are you fond of the Use magic device skill?
If yes: Be a Changling sub level rogue *Dip around to your hearts content, I recommend Warshapper for a few levels*
If No: Proceed

Would you prefer to have the option to deal damage with spell or are you continent with attempting to incapacitate?
Option of dealing damage: Changling rogue 1/Sorcerer
Incapacitating: Changling Beguiler (possibly, Changling sub rogue 1/beguiler)

crazedloon
2008-07-01, 04:57 AM
nope it is only for the sub levels the skill section reads
"Changeling rogue substitution levels have the class skills of a standard rogue class plus one Knowledge skill chosen when the first racial substitution level is taken. Once this selection is made it cannot be changed.
Skill points at each level 10+int modifier(or four times this number as a beginning character)"

So I guess my assessment is wrong because you get 8 extra points at level 1 and 4 later on for on level subs

Edit: think of sub levels as very specific PrCs with their own skill points hd Bab saves abilities and requirements

Ok I will have to admit I can not understand why you need the subpar sub levels to be a good rogue with UMD?

Talic
2008-07-01, 05:39 AM
Regardless of what you pick, your first feat needs to be Darkstalker, if you intend to use stealth. Critter supersenses turn off rogues almost as much as the words "immune to critical hits".

Useful items for sneak attack are ones that mimic golemstrike and gravestrike. That gets around many of the immunes. If going against something that's still immune? Well, you've done what you can.

But yes, Invisibility + Darkstalker means that, at level 20, if you snipe a dragon from 30 feet away, you can pull the following fun out:

Hide: +40 (invis) + 23 (ranks) +12 (dex - 18, 5 level boosts, tome +5, +6 item) + 10 (feats - Stealthy, Skill focus: hide, Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws) +4 (size - either natural or item if Reduce Person) = +89 hide. -20 for snipe, +3 for range, and you have a +72, which will beat almost any CR 20 creature, on a roll of 1, if they roll a 20. Tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, scent, and the like will not help, either. You can push this up to +76 with Able sniper, and +86 if you take the halfling rogue racial substitution (along with getting full attack snipes). Or you can keep it at +76 and remove the 3 feats, or +72 and remove able sniper as well.

I've seen Wiz 7/Rogue 13 work well for this, or Sorc 9/Rogue 11. That's mostly based on whether you prefer to be a skill based character, or a charisma based character. Either build gets 4th level magic, which nets you the all important improved invisibility. If you can get to 8th, you get superior invis, which won't be bypassed by anything short of true seeing... Which is rare in monsters.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-01, 06:31 AM
Illusions, or a number of powerful spells that being mindless won't stop: Glitterdust, Slow, Solid Fog, etc. And if for some reason those aren't helpful, the Beguiler can still Haste the party, toss around some Mage Armors if the enemy is incorporeal, and so on.

Yes, but then (for the most part) he's not doing the fun stuff of slaughtering bad guys.


Just like the Rogue, the Beguiler can have UMD as an option.

True enough.


Especially powerful, yes. Brokenly powerful? I don't really think so. Can it match noted powerhouse PrCs such as IotSV, Incantrix, and the like? Not really. At full caster progression, is it a "must-take" PrC? Not really; as a Beguiler you lose out heavily on skills (for a Warmage, on the other hand...), and having all Cleric spells does not a Cleric make.
A good part of this depends on how you define broken. Is the Core Druid with Natural Spell broken? Well, the Druid does have the ability (after about 5th level) to out melee the Core Fighter. If built with an eye towards it, the Core Druid can also be a mediocre skill monkey (Spot, Listen, and Diplomacy as class skills, and can get Hide bonuses reasonably high by way of Wildshaping into something Tiny or smaller with a good Dex), a blaster (Druid has some handy direct-damage spells), combat control (Druid gets a few wall spells), party-buffing (Druid gets some decent buff spells), Healing (duh), and so on. Put a bit of thought into it, and you may find that the Core Druid can, with a bit of work on spell selection, fill any role in the party; pretty much on a day's notice, too.

At full caster progression, when used with the Beguiler, the Rainbow Servant-10 has the most short-term flexibility of any class in the game - bar none. Sneak? Invisibility + Silence; check. Diplomacy? Charm effects, check. Flight? Air Walk, check. Battlefield Control? Wall of Stone, check. Blasting? Yeah, there's direct-damage Cleric spells. And so on. Unlike with the Druid or Cleric, though, the Beguiler/Rainbow Servant-10 ... doesn't have to choose which to do on a daily basis. He can just do it as it comes up. And he gets more spells per day than the actual cleric.

hamishspence
2008-07-01, 07:41 AM
Hmm, Personally I'd say its just that complete divine doesn't have a decent errata yet: text trumps table "Unless otherwise stated" Champions of Ruin had same problem. Sage advice, at least, said, in this case, table should trump text, for balance purposes. When weighing things up, the fact that multiple source match table and only one matches text, should be taken into account.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-01, 08:24 AM
This is the link to the Sage advice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080429a) mentioned by Hamish.

Chronos
2008-07-01, 12:54 PM
Hide: +40 (invis) + 23 (ranks) +12 (dex - 18, 5 level boosts, tome +5, +6 item) + 10 (feats - Stealthy, Skill focus: hide, Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws) +4 (size - either natural or item if Reduce Person) = +89 hide. -20 for snipe, +3 for range, and you have a +72, which will beat almost any CR 20 creature, on a roll of 1, if they roll a 20. Tremorsense, blindsense, blindsight, scent, and the like will not help, either. You can push this up to +76 with Able sniper, and +86 if you take the halfling rogue racial substitution (along with getting full attack snipes). Or you can keep it at +76 and remove the 3 feats, or +72 and remove able sniper as well.A few points, there: First, many creatures at CR 20 or thereabouts will have See Invisibility, True Sight, or the equivalent, negating the bonus from Invisibility. Second, Kruthik Claws is useless, since it gives a Competence bonus, the same type as is granted by Invisibility or most of the various items that grant skill bonuses, and the Shadow and Silent Moves armor properties can give you +15, instead of a measly +4. Third, "even if you roll a 1" should not enter into any discussion of skills for a high-level rogue, since your first rogue special ability should always be Skill Mastery.

The overall point stands, though, that with a reasonable amount of optimization, a mid to high level rogue can outsneak anything except possibly a druid or a dragon.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 12:56 PM
I heard of 1 Luck Feat which causes a 1 to be classed as a Natural 20. Would that also eliminate the chance of automatic failure due to a poor roll, or would rolling a 2 count as a 1 if you had that feat?

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 01:21 PM
Just to point out you only gain the 10+int at the three substitution levels that skill number does not replace the rogues on every level. So it translates into 6 extra skill points for your rogue spread out over 8 levels. Not that impressive.
Then when you consider taking one of the sub levels loses you one of your most important skills (trapfinding) you are most likely going to skip it reducing your improved skill number to 4 over 8 levels.
If you did not forgo your trap finding you may wish to keep trapsense as you will fail a few DCs, but even if you do forgo it trap sense is still effective to keep you from dieing with the rest of the group on the missed trap (because the rogue gave up his finding skills for 2 skill points) which is particularly important since you are not making con a priority because you are depending on range. So if you wish to keep your trapsense and forgo the relatively useless boost to knowledge you lose 2 more skill points now you are down to 2 extra late in skill progression.
And last chance to get extra skill points is perhaps one of the only interesting substitutions as preventing crits is nice.

Ok so looking at this you can nerf your rogue as the skill monkey for an extra 6 skill points.... Doesn't seem to useful to me but I will admit I have not played a changeling rogue

Um, did you notice what the changling rogue gets at level 1? The ability to take 10 on all the important social skills is more than worth trapfinding (especially when combined with the 8 extra skill points). The first of the substitution levels is the best for the changling rogue. If you're that worried about trapfinding, dip a level in factotum, scout (and go Swift Ambusher) or beguiler. Making a social rogue means that you're also able to focus more on Int than a combat rogue. Trap sense is rather worthless, and should be swapped out for Penetrating Strike (1/2 SA to crit-immune creatures if you're flanking) if you're allowed the Dungeonscape alternate class feature.

Chronos
2008-07-01, 02:16 PM
Um, did you notice what the changling rogue gets at level 1? The ability to take 10 on all the important social skills is more than worth trapfinding (especially when combined with the 8 extra skill points).Even more so, when you consider that the changeling's shape-changing ability and racial skill bonus already give it a leg up for focusing on social skills. And dipping another trapfinding class doesn't usually cost the rogue any more than the loss of a couple of skill points, which is more than made up for by the extra points the changeling sub level gets (plus you get whatever the other class gets, too). The only drawback, at all, to taking the racial substitution level is that you'll have to spend one level without trapfinding (and frankly, level 1 sucks for anyone, no matter what you do).

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 02:18 PM
Is it a good exchange if you have a DM who likes to use a lot of traps? I assumed that it would largely depend on te sort of obsticals the party is likely to encounter.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-01, 03:41 PM
Hmm, Personally I'd say its just that complete divine doesn't have a decent errata yet: text trumps table "Unless otherwise stated" Champions of Ruin had same problem. Sage advice, at least, said, in this case, table should trump text, for balance purposes. When weighing things up, the fact that multiple source match table and only one matches text, should be taken into account.Mind you, the errata doesn't otherwise state in the case in queestion, so it's *technically* a full progression PrC as written. But yes - in this case (and pretty much in this type of case all-over) table *should* trump text.

Frosty
2008-07-01, 03:42 PM
But doesn't losing 4 caster levels make it underpowered?

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 03:59 PM
True enough.

A good part of this depends on how you define broken. Is the Core Druid with Natural Spell broken? Well, the Druid does have the ability (after about 5th level) to out melee the Core Fighter. If built with an eye towards it, the Core Druid can also be a mediocre skill monkey (Spot, Listen, and Diplomacy as class skills, and can get Hide bonuses reasonably high by way of Wildshaping into something Tiny or smaller with a good Dex), a blaster (Druid has some handy direct-damage spells), combat control (Druid gets a few wall spells), party-buffing (Druid gets some decent buff spells), Healing (duh), and so on. Put a bit of thought into it, and you may find that the Core Druid can, with a bit of work on spell selection, fill any role in the party; pretty much on a day's notice, too.

At full caster progression, when used with the Beguiler, the Rainbow Servant-10 has the most short-term flexibility of any class in the game - bar none. Sneak? Invisibility + Silence; check. Diplomacy? Charm effects, check. Flight? Air Walk, check. Battlefield Control? Wall of Stone, check. Blasting? Yeah, there's direct-damage Cleric spells. And so on. Unlike with the Druid or Cleric, though, the Beguiler/Rainbow Servant-10 ... doesn't have to choose which to do on a daily basis. He can just do it as it comes up. And he gets more spells per day than the actual cleric.

You make a good point. I think as DM, I would allow the full caster progression if the party was going the highly optimized route (alongside a Druid, Incantrix, IotSV, DMM Cleric and so on); but would use the table in all other cases.

Chronos
2008-07-01, 04:19 PM
But doesn't losing 4 caster levels make it underpowered?Yes. Next question?

Kurald Galain
2008-07-01, 04:25 PM
But doesn't losing 4 caster levels make it underpowered?

Depending on your party, playing an underpowered version of an overpowered class may actually balance out quite nicely.

NobleSavage
2008-07-01, 04:27 PM
I'm of the opinion that having lots of skill points AND the ability to give yourself a huge boost to several important checks (Invisibility for +40 to hide, Silence, Glibness for +30 Bluff, etc), you're really a better skillmonkey than someone with more overall skill points.


Um, yeah, I'ma go ahead and sit down. Really can't defend anything I was thinking there. Guess its about time to get really down and dirty with my newly-purchased-at-a-used-bookstore (at least one good thing to come from 4e) SpC.




Regardless of what you pick, your first feat needs to be Darkstalker, if you intend to use stealth. Critter supersenses turn off rogues almost as much as the words "immune to critical hits".


Seconded, fantastic. Not quite the Natural Spell for rogues, but getting close. If you are going caster check out Invisible Spell (Cityscape) which makes your spells invisible at a +0 cost. Probably not best when applied to your illusions.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-01, 05:06 PM
But doesn't losing 4 caster levels make it underpowered?
Underpowered relative to a Full Caster, yes. But then, the Full Casters are generally the strongest type of character in 3.5 after around 5th-10th level (or at least, they're commonly thought to be after around that point). If it's weaker than the strongest classes in the game, that's not in and of itself all that bad (unless you want something particularly optimized for whatever reason). If your usefulness is on par with the Rogue, you're probably okay from a balance perspective (Skillmonkeys are about mid-range "power" for most the spectrum of 1-20).


You make a good point. I think as DM, I would allow the full caster progression if the party was going the highly optimized route (alongside a Druid, Incantrix, IotSV, DMM Cleric and so on); but would use the table in all other cases.
Perfectly reasonable thing to do.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-01, 07:04 PM
But doesn't losing 4 caster levels make it underpowered?

Not when you can spontaniously cast every single cleric spell in any splatbook your GM okays without needing to bother with spells known or writing them down before hand. Beguiler spells at 9th aren't really all that spectactular (Dominate Monster tops the list, I believe), compared with spontanious Heal, Slay Living, Blade Barrier, Divine Power and Righteous Might, and other fun toys from the Cleric list.

Even loosing 4 caster levels, it's still horridly broken. If you go by text rather than table, it's just pure, unmitigated cheeze.

It's literally a Shrodiger Cleric build.

Collin152
2008-07-01, 07:07 PM
Beguiler spells at 9th aren't really all that spectactular (Dominate Monster tops the list, I believe)

Advanced Learning: Mindrape.
Never give up ninth level spells on a Beguiler!

Frosty
2008-07-01, 07:09 PM
That spell sounds evil. What if you don't want to be an evil beguilers?

Collin152
2008-07-01, 07:12 PM
That spell sounds evil. What if you don't want to be an evil beguilers?

Wuss.
Programmed Amnesia.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-01, 07:13 PM
Advanced Learning: Mindrape.
Never give up ninth level spells on a Beguiler!

Spontanious Regenerate, Resurrect, Greater Restoration, Destruction, and Heal, for starters. Well worth a spell that, by the time you get it, most of the enemies worth using it on are immune to it.

Plus, Advanced Learning can't net you 9th level spells.

Collin152
2008-07-01, 07:14 PM
Plus, Advanced Learning can't net you 9th level spells.

Since when?

Siosilvar
2008-07-01, 07:16 PM
You can only spontaneously cast cure and inflict spells.

Spontaneous Casting

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).
So no spontaneous regenerates, ressurections, heals, etc. for you.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 07:26 PM
Spontanious Regenerate, Resurrect, Greater Restoration, Destruction, and Heal, for starters. Well worth a spell that, by the time you get it, most of the enemies worth using it on are immune to it.

Plus, Advanced Learning can't net you 9th level spells.

:smallconfused: Who says that you're Mindraping your enemies?

Plus:


Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd level, you can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment or illusion school and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.
You gain another new spell at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.

Collin152
2008-07-01, 07:29 PM
:smallconfused: Who says that you're Mindraping your enemies?


...
I love you.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 07:41 PM
...
I love you.

That's the Mindrape talking :smalltongue:.

Chronos
2008-07-01, 08:06 PM
Not when you can spontaniously cast every single cleric spell in any splatbook your GM okays without needing to bother with spells known or writing them down before hand.Correction: Every single cleric spell of up to eighth level. And yes, that's a very powerful ability, but as I end up mentioning in every discussion of Rainbow Servant, a cleric can do that, too. Just fill up all your ninth-level slots with Miracle, and 1-8 with whatever you think you'll be most likely to need. Usually, you'll have the right spell for the situation prepared anyway, and spending all of your 9th slots on Miracle gives you enough flexibility to cover for the rare situations where you don't.

Does this mean that clerics are broken? Probably. They're certainly more broken than a by-the-table beguiler/RS.

Collin152
2008-07-01, 08:19 PM
That's the Mindrape talking :smalltongue:.

Yours or mine?
I Mindraped you when your back was turned.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 08:20 PM
Yours or mine?
I Mindraped you when your back was turned.

I honestly can't recall. I do know that you've been my best friend since forever...

Collin152
2008-07-01, 08:21 PM
I honestly can't recall. I do know that you've been my best friend since forever...

Best friend?!
Stupid, malfunctioning thing...

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-01, 08:23 PM
You can only spontaneously cast cure and inflict spells.

So no spontaneous regenerates, ressurections, heals, etc. for you.

Apparently you are unaware that Ranbow Servant PrC put every single cleric spell from every book your GM allows into your spell list as a capstone ability, and Beguilers can cast any spell from their spell list spontaniously without any spells known or preparation nonsense.

You don't have to take a single cleric level to do it, so that entire entry is completely beside the point, as it deals ONLY with Clerics.

And even then, you are incorrect, because you can take the Spontanious Domain as either an alternate class feature instead of spontanious cure/inflict, or as a feat to do so in addition to your normally spontanious stuff depending on your alignment, although you blow turn attempts to do so.

Like I said, even with loosing 4 caster levels, you're practically a Shrodiger Cleric already. If you go by text, you are, literally, a Shrodiger Cleric, plus a Shrodiger Beguiler. In other words, pure cheeze.

Personally, I'd rather have spontanious 8th level spells to include all cleric spells than Mindrape, but I suppose YMMV.

And Miracle costs XP every time you use it, so that makes it FAR less powerful.

monty
2008-07-01, 08:52 PM
And Miracle costs XP every time you use it, so that makes it FAR less powerful.

Except, y'know, when it doesn't.

Chronos
2008-07-01, 10:19 PM
And Miracle costs XP every time you use it, so that makes it FAR less powerful.Only for the really cool stuff (which is still good to have available, as a last resort). For the simple things like simulating another spell, all it costs is a spell slot and a standard action.

monty
2008-07-02, 12:23 PM
Of course, if you really want Miracle cheese, you need Shadowcraft Mage and a nice DM. Spontaneous Miracles in a 6th level spell slot, and 1st level if I do it twice in a row? Yes, please.

marjan
2008-07-02, 12:25 PM
Of course, if you really want Miracle cheese, you need Shadowcraft Mage and a nice DM. Spontaneous Miracles in a 6th level spell slot, and 1st level if I do it twice in a row? Yes, please.

With no XP cost, whatever you are trying to do.

monty
2008-07-02, 08:43 PM
With no XP cost, whatever you are trying to do.

Also works really well with spells like True Creation (arbitrary amounts of any expensive material) or Genesis (with time, you can make your plane as big as you want).