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Swordguy
2008-06-30, 01:33 AM
So...I'm running Keep on the Shadowfell for my group (a bunch of 3e veterans) as our introduction to 4e. We're using the pregen characters (and will retcon after the adventure to custom PCs if they so decide). We've got:

Dragonborn Paladin
Dwarf Fighter
Halfling Rogue

There's only 3 players - nobody feels like running 2 PCs because we're all new to 4e, and I'm certainly not going to try to run a PC AND GM in a new system.

They just got to Winterhaven in the first session (using the "map the keep" adventure hook), and they're going to be heading up to the Keep first, and going after the Kobolds after they're done up there. My question is thus:

With only 3 people, what are going to be the pitfalls for the PCs during their planned encounters? What am I going to have to tone down, and by how much? They tore apart the first ambush (I deleted 1 minion and 1 dragonshield to allow for only 3 PCs) with using only a single healing surge in total. Can they reasonably take the rest of the adventure as written?

skywalker
2008-06-30, 01:52 AM
I doubt it. First off, the Keep is designed on the premise that your characters have completed at least one, and maybe both of the side-trips before they even enter the keep. Kalarel is designed to be the climax of the adventure, and I seriously doubt a party below third level could handle him.

The module kills 5 player parties on a semi-regular basis. I seriously doubt they could take the rest of it as written, especially going to the keep before the burial site or kobold lair. I'd be very surprised if they got anywhere in the keep without a healer.

I'm sorry to be really negative without any positive but I'm just beginning my foray into DM'ing(finding five players to play KotS has been my undoing). So I don't really know much about subtracting and what not.

FoE
2008-06-30, 02:06 AM
For one thing, if you're "dropping" minions, you need to remember that 4 minions equal one level-appropriate creature. Your encounter would have still worked if you just dropped one Dragonshield.

JaxGaret
2008-06-30, 04:39 AM
Three 3rd- or 4th-level PCs should be just about equivalent to five 1st-level PCs. You could simply start them at a higher level, and not adjust the encounters at all; that's probably what I would do.

Take a look at the chart on page 57 of the DMG to see how this works.

Also note that the pregen characters are built rather poorly; if your group is any good at optimization at all, their characters will come out stronger.

Starbuck_II
2008-06-30, 12:15 PM
Three 3rd- or 4th-level PCs should be just about equivalent to five 1st-level PCs. You could simply start them at a higher level, and not adjust the encounters at all; that's probably what I would do.

Take a look at the chart on page 57 of the DMG to see how this works.

Also note that the pregen characters are built rather poorly; if your group is any good at optimization at all, their characters will come out stronger.

The Pregens were not all badly built. But yeah, most were not the best.

Swordguy
2008-06-30, 02:00 PM
For one thing, if you're "dropping" minions, you need to remember that 4 minions equal one level-appropriate creature. Your encounter would have still worked if you just dropped one Dragonshield.

Good to know. Thanks!

So, steer them away from the keep to start off with as best I can. Got it. Once they get there, though, any specific advise on what to cut back?

Oh, and JaxGaret, while normally I don't mind starting PCs at a higher level, in this case, we're trying to go from 1st on up to see as much of the system as possible. And don't worry, my group is horrible at optimizing (well, it's not so much that they're bad about it, it's just that - given only an hour to make a character - they'd rather spend 3 minutes building the PC and 57 minutes on the backstory and personality).

RTGoodman
2008-06-30, 03:22 PM
Swordguy, do you have access to the 4E DMG? If so, pg. 56-57 (I think) are exactly what you're looking for. Specifically, the chart on pg. 57 tells the Target XP for an encounter of X level with Y number of PCs.

Of course, since 3 PCs isn't listed anywhere on the chart (it just has 4, 5, and 6), I can probably get away with telling you that a 1st level encounter for 3 PCs should be about 300 XP total (so, three 100 XP creatures or something like that), a 2nd level encounter for them should yield about 375 XP, and a 3rd level encounter should have around 450 XP worth of enemies.

Since KotS has XP listed in each creature's stat block (I think), you should be able to fiddle around with creature numbers to get the right level encounter.

Starbuck_II
2008-06-30, 05:42 PM
Of course, since 3 PCs isn't listed anywhere on the chart (it just has 4, 5, and 6), I can probably get away with telling you that a 1st level encounter for 3 PCs should be about 300 XP total (so, three 100 XP creatures or something like that), a 2nd level encounter for them should yield about 375 XP, and a 3rd level encounter should have around 450 XP worth of enemies.

Since KotS has XP listed in each creature's stat block (I think), you should be able to fiddle around with creature numbers to get the right level encounter.

You could like convert some enemies into minions.

Keeps feel of numbers, but weaker and worth less each individually so beatable.

If battle has: Budget Xp 5XX (500 something)
2 slingers
a dragonshield
2 skirmishers

For 3 person party: Remove both skirmishers and a slinger; add in 6 minions.
New battle: 6 minions, 1 slinger, and Dragon Shield.
Cost: 350 or so. Do-able for 3 people.
Keep some minions seperated in differenmt groups so one AoE won't kill all in one hit and it will be a decent battle.

Swordguy
2008-06-30, 06:54 PM
Further quick (and probably stupid) question:

Regarding creature XP - that XP is split amoung the party like always, right? A monster worth 100 xp killed by a party of 4 gives each member 25 XP, right?

(I've gone through the PHB and MM at some length - saved the DMG till last because people on here said it was just a "how-to" on the process of DMing in general, which I don't need. Nobody mentioned there were specific rules in there... :smallmad: )

Thanks, rtg0922 and Starbuck_II.

JaxGaret
2008-06-30, 07:10 PM
(I've gone through the PHB and MM at some length - saved the DMG till last because people on here said it was just a "how-to" on the process of DMing in general, which I don't need. Nobody mentioned there were specific rules in there... :smallmad: )

Those were probably anti-4e posters worrying about pooh-poohing anything 4e rather than about truthful information dissemination.

The 4e DMG is actually quite chock full of usefulness.

RTGoodman
2008-06-30, 08:21 PM
The 4e DMG is actually quite chock full of usefulness.

Yep. Most of the beginning chapter(s) is really generic "So you're a DM - Now What?" kinda stuff, but most of the rest of it is actual rules info, much of it really important.

Specifically, pg. 56-59 are all about encounter building by level, pg. 126-129 has all your treasure parcels, and pg. 172-188 are all the DM's toolbox that's all about homebrewing creatures, leveling or deleveling MM creatures, adding templates (and thus making Elite and Solo monsters), creating NPCs, and stuff like that. Also, I've already got pg. 143 bookmarked it's so important - it's the page on how to create higher-level characters for starting at levels other than 1st.

(Also, if nothing else the DMG's got some good art in it. The Dwarf and Tiefling running Indiana Jones-style from a giant rolling boulder is awesome, and I like the art at the beginning of the Rewards chapter, too.)