Twilight Mithral Huh?

[Deth Muncher]

I'm trying to find this...apparently it's some sort of broken bit of armor for casters? Like, it's a fullplate with no ASF? If someone can post the rules/ books the rules come out of, i'd be greatful.

[starwoof]

Well mithril is the normal item property, but twilight is a magical property that can be found in a few books. It lowers the armor check penalty of armor by 10%. I know you can find it in the PHB2 and BoED, but I'm sure its in a few others as well.

[Cuddly]

twilight reduces ASF by 10%. It's a +1 modifier. Mithral is a mundane material that is very nice- details in the back of the DMG. It also reduces ASF by 10%. Combine to get mages in chain shirts. The AC boost is nice, but the adding of armor special properties is even nicer.

[Nebo_]

Twilight reduces ASF by 10%, so does Mithril. Add it to something with 20% or lower ASF and you're fine to wear it, as long as there's no ACP.

It's hardly broken for casters, it's just fairly good.

[kamikasei]

The twilight enhancement is in the PHBII under the Duskblade's section, I think; it's a +1-equivalent if I remember correctly. It reduces arcane spell failure chance (not armor check penalty) by 10%. Thus, you can make a +1 twilight mithral chain shirt to get +5 AC for 5k gold with no penalties as a wizard. It's decent, but I wouldn't call it broken. It takes up the robe slot, for one thing; and it's not a force effect like mage armor or bracers of armor, for another. It is a good, cheap way to get a decent armor bonus without having to burn a daily spell, though.

[Fizban]

However, the correct way to do it is Thistledown Padded Githcraft/Feycraft Mithral Chain Shirt: same ASF of 0%, no magic required. Costs several thousand less as well. Requires Races of the Wild, PHBII, and DMG.

Find an armor with more than a +4 base bonus and 30% ASF and you can combine the above with Twilight for more complicated armor goodness.

[Reinboom]

However, the correct way to do it is Thistledown Padded Githcraft/Feycraft Mithral Chain Shirt: same ASF of 0%, no magic required. Costs several thousand less as well. Requires Races of the Wild, PHBII, and DMG.

Find an armor with more than a +4 base bonus and 30% ASF and you can combine the above with Twilight for more complicated armor goodness.

Requires DMG2*, The 'x'craft are not in the PHB2 to the best of my knowledge.


Also, you can take Nephilim (+0 LA outsider, no HD - outsider type gives you prof in all weapons) and grab the armor proficiency feats then dip once in spellsword.
Combine with the previous two to get -40% ASF with no spell level loss.
Which means full plate. Actually, you don't even need the githcraft since Full plate is only 35%.

If you are building for level 12+, you could instead set to dip in Dragonslayer to grab the proficiencies for you instead of being a random slaad looking outsider race. You only lose 2 feats going that route instead of 3 as well.
And you gain immunity to fear.

:smalltongue:

[Tingel]

This is slightly off-topic, but the original poster's question has been answered anyway, so I suppose I can be forgiven.

Five people in this thread mentioned "Mithral", and I've seen it before in the Playground. Does D&D actually use that spelling instead of the original Mithril or is it just a widespread misspelling?

[kamikasei]

Five people in this thread mentioned "Mithral", and I've seen it before in the Playground. Does D&D actually use that spelling instead of the original Mithril or is it just a widespread misspelling?

It uses that spelling, presumably for copyright or similar reasons. Same reason we have Balors, and halflings.

[erikun]

I prefer Blue Ice armor from Frostburn - no chance of spell failure as long as it's a cold spell! Now to just reflavor my utility spells: blur creating a veil of snow, fly summoning a pair of snow wings, phantom steed forming out of arctic clouds, etc.

[kamikasei]

I prefer Blue Ice armor from Frostburn - no chance of spell failure as long as it's a cold spell! Now to just reflavor my utility spells: blur creating a veil of snow, fly summoning a pair of snow wings, phantom steed forming out of arctic clouds, etc.

Now just research versions of all those spells which have the [Cold] descriptor and see if your DM will accept it.

[AmberVael]

Alternately, you could just get the snowcasting feat to add the Cold descriptor to any spell you cast... as long as you have some snow/ice for a material component. I'm sure you could find some way to manage that.

[Holocron Coder]

Isn't there a feat that applies the [Cold] descriptor to spells? I remember something similar to that being used in the Locate City bomb.

It may even be part of Frostburn, also.

Edit: Gah, ninja'd by several minutes... need to reload the page before posting :smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

I prefer Blue Ice armor from Frostburn - no chance of spell failure as long as it's a cold spell! Now to just reflavor my utility spells: blur creating a veil of snow, fly summoning a pair of snow wings, phantom steed forming out of arctic clouds, etc.

If it has a mechanical impact, it's not reflavoring. This is like saying "I reflavor my fireball so it does sonic damage, uses d12s for damage, and doesn't allow a save or SR. It's okay, because it's just reflavoring!" It's not reflavoring, it's munchkinry.

[Another_Poet]

Alternately, you could just get the snowcasting feat to add the Cold descriptor to any spell you cast... as long as you have some snow/ice for a material component. I'm sure you could find some way to manage that.

If you're wearing armour made of Blue Ice, then there should almost always be a layer of frost/regular ice forming on the oputside of it (from the moisture in the air contacting the magically cold armour). Unlimited free material component in any climate (except maybe arid desert).

[AmberVael]

If you're wearing armour made of Blue Ice, then there should almost always be a layer of frost/regular ice forming on the oputside of it (from the moisture in the air contacting the magically cold armour). Unlimited free material component in any climate (except maybe arid desert).

Hey, that's actually a fairly good point. As a DM I'd probably put some limitations on it, but you could so totally do that.

[Signmaker]

Hey, that's actually a fairly good point. As a DM I'd probably put some limitations on it, but you could so totally do that.

Or you could just pocket a hunk of Blue Ice and see if the DM allows it.

I had a crafter that made Blue Ice Dragon Sculptures and used one for all his Snowcasted spells. It took a LONG time, as Blue Ice is half the weight of Iron and costs 400 gp/lb. Needless to say, I had to beg my DM for a fiat to reduce crafting time.

Now if only I could have animated those suckers... fear the wrath of 3 in high dragons!

[Eldritch_Ent]

Hey, that's actually a fairly good point. As a DM I'd probably put some limitations on it, but you could so totally do that.

Alternatively, If all of your spells are [Cold] Descriptored, You really only need one piece of ice. If you ever need another, you can just cast any spell to generate more.

I can also see an item akin to the Decanter of Endless Water, except it's a... Box of endless icecubes?

Then again, there's also always "Eschew Material Component"

[Keld Denar]

I can also see an item akin to the Decanter of Endless Water, except it's a... Box of endless icecubes?


Party favorite on Margarita night. Combine with Wall of Salt and your wizard is an walking party waiting to happen.

Now, where did I leave that tequillia......

[Deth Muncher]

Right. Well uh...thanks guys. Guess that solved that.

Edit: OH NO IT DIDN'T!


Can you stack Mage Armor/Shield with a physical armor/shield? Or, for that matter, a Ring of Forceshield with the spell Shield?

[Chronos]

Why would you use blue ice for a snowcasting component? That stuff's too expensive to use up as a material component.


Can you stack Mage Armor/Shield with a physical armor/shield? Or, for that matter, a Ring of Forceshield with the spell Shield?Regular armor, Bracers of Armor, and the Mage Armor spell all give you an armor bonus to AC. In general, bonuses of the same type don't stack: Only the better one applies. Likewise, the Shield spell, a ring of forceshield, and a regular physical shield all give you a shield bonus to AC, so they don't stack, either.

The only exceptions to this general rule: Dodge bonuses always stack, even with themselves. Circumstance bonuses stack if they come from different circumstances. Synergy bonuses always stack, and if you can somehow get multiple sources of racial bonuses (a base race and a template, for instance), they stack. All other bonuses, two bonuses of the same type don't stack.

[BRC]

Random question about mithril, could use get a suit of mithril full plate, which counts as medium armor, then use the feat Efficient Defender (+1 to AC if wearing Light or Medium armor) from cityscape?

[Burley]

Yes, you can. That's the wonderful thing about Mithral. It lets you subvert a few rules and requirements to get even better stuff in the long run.

[Deth Muncher]

Regular armor, Bracers of Armor, and the Mage Armor spell all give you an armor bonus to AC. In general, bonuses of the same type don't stack: Only the better one applies. Likewise, the Shield spell, a ring of forceshield, and a regular physical shield all give you a shield bonus to AC, so they don't stack, either.


Well if that's the case, wouldn't a permanancied Greater Mage Armor be better than this Twilight Mithril Armor?


EDIT: Or, rather, a Greater Mage Armor as cast by a 10th level Argent Savant?

[kamikasei]

Why would you use blue ice for a snowcasting component? That stuff's too expensive to use up as a material component.

I think the logic is that regular old ice should continually be forming on the cold armor.


Well if that's the case, wouldn't a permanancied Greater Mage Armor be better than this Twilight Mithril Armor?

Dispellable, XP cost, no access to other armor enhancements.


EDIT: Or, rather, a Greater Mage Armor as cast by a 10th level Argent Savant?

...A bit specialized?

[Deth Muncher]

Dispellable, XP cost, no access to other armor enhancements.

-snip-

...A bit specialized?

Very good points, actually.

I bring up the Argent Savant idea only because in the not too distant future, one of my current characters is going to become one.

So then, the problem is "Oh, as an Argent Savant, all my force-armor effects get a +2 bonus! Woo! But wait, I'm wearing this armor...it doesn't stack..."

[CelestialStick]

Right. Well uh...thanks guys. Guess that solved that.

Edit: OH NO IT DIDN'T!


Can you stack Mage Armor/Shield with a physical armor/shield? Or, for that matter, a Ring of Forceshield with the spell Shield?

Hey Deth! I see you're in VA too. :smallsmile:

Mage armor and physical armor both provide an armor bonus, and since bonuses of the same sort generally don't stack, you can't stack them. You just get the benefit of the higher bonus. The same goes for a shield and the shield spell. Now since both mage armor and shield are force effects, they'll work against incorporeal attacks while your physical armor and shield won't (unless they have the ghost touch ability).

[kamikasei]

So then, the problem is "Oh, as an Argent Savant, all my force-armor effects get a +2 bonus! Woo! But wait, I'm wearing this armor...it doesn't stack..."

True. If you're going in to a class which specifically gives you benefits for using mage armor, there's not much point avoiding using the spell. The twilight shirt is intended for regular ol' wizards, mostly, who don't want to be bothered casting the same old buff time and again.

[Deth Muncher]

Hey Deth! I see you're in VA too. :smallsmile:

Mage armor and physical armor both provide an armor bonus, and since bonuses of the same sort generally don't stack, you can't stack them. You just get the benefit of the higher bonus. The same goes for a shield and the shield spell. Now since both mage armor and shield are force effects, they'll work against incorporeal attacks while your physical armor and shield won't (unless they have the ghost touch ability).
Right, see, that's what I'm saying, is they're proof against more harms than just a regular piece of armor.


However, say you've got a piece of armor with a +2 to AC and Immunity to Electricity, and you've got Mage Armor up. Do you have a +4 to AC (from MA) as well as the immunity?

[kamikasei]

However, say you've got a piece of armor with a +2 to AC and Immunity to Electricity, and you've got Mage Armor up. Do you have a +4 to AC (from MA) as well as the immunity?

Yes. The bonuses don't stack, which means they overlap, but they don't cancel each other out or anything. Special abilities will still apply. Think of it like having mage armor//chain shirt gestalt. :smalltongue:

[CelestialStick]

Right, see, that's what I'm saying, is they're proof against more harms than just a regular piece of armor.


However, say you've got a piece of armor with a +2 to AC and Immunity to Electricity, and you've got Mage Armor up. Do you have a +4 to AC (from MA) as well as the immunity?

Indeed you do! :smallsmile:

[mostlyharmful]

Also wearing a chain shirt makes you a viable target for magic vestment spells from the cleric. If they're built around buffing they'll have pumped their CL and having +9 to AC in adition to all the other stuff you can stack on armour this can be a very useful trick

[Deth Muncher]

Also wearing a chain shirt makes you a viable target for magic vestment spells from the cleric. If they're built around buffing they'll have pumped their CL and having +9 to AC in adition to all the other stuff you can stack on armour this can be a very useful trick

Funny thing about the party cleric...

He doesn't exist. For one reason or another, nobody played one.

[Keld Denar]

Another funny thing about the cleric that doesn't exist. A Mithril Buckler has 0% ASF and a -0 ACP. Using one non-proficient doesn't lose you anything. Its also a nice depository of enhancements and a non-existant Magic Vestaments spell ;) Looks like someone should have played a cleric.

The primary virtue of wearing armor and carrying a shield as a wizard isn't the AC, however. Its the enhancements. Armor enhancements are relatively cheap until you stack em up high. +1 Mithril Twilight Energy Immunity Deathward Chain Shirt is (4k + 25k = 29k) and provides 1/day immunity to a death attack and a powerful energy attack (suprise dragons anyone?). Add this to a +1 Mithril Energy Immunity Deathward Buckler for another ~17k and you've got that protection twice a day. Or better yet, spring for Freedom. Sure, it'll cost a little more than a Ring of Freedom of Movement, but its also taking a different slot, because ring slots are precious! (I like Enduring Arcana + Arcane Might, or maybe Spellbattle). So much loot, so little body space...just gotta find somewhere else to put rings...

[Deth Muncher]

Another funny thing about the cleric that doesn't exist. A Mithril Buckler has 0% ASF and a -0 ACP. Using one non-proficient doesn't lose you anything. Its also a nice depository of enhancements and a non-existant Magic Vestaments spell ;) Looks like someone should have played a cleric.


Sigh...crap. And I KNOW the DM isn't going to give us a Cleric NPC. We're already over-staffed as it is.


Horsefeathers.:smallmad:

[CelestialStick]

Funny thing about the party cleric...

He doesn't exist. For one reason or another, nobody played one.

Back in the old days of original D&D in the 1970s, and pretty well continuing through AD&D and 2nd Ed, it was often hard to find someone who wanted to play a cleric, unless the DM allowed two characters per play (not uncommon actually). I mean, the fighter got to run around and hack things, and the MU (meaning magic-user) got to run around blasting things, but the poor cleric just ran around healing. The fighter and the wizard each had his own claim to being the real hero of the group, but each one had a primary role. The cleric though had a secondary or support role. Sure, the cleric could bash a little, and if he got high enough in level blast a little too, but the others always looked at him as the party's med-kit. (I recall an episode of OoTS where the party looked at Durkon and saw him as a band-aid box with legs and a face.)

The 3rd Ed (3.0 & 3.5) cleric has much more flexibility, but I think that at he core people still view him (or her) as the party's healer, and thus more of a support character than an action character. So it can be hard to find people who want to play clerics.