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View Full Version : Quantum dragons + experience for bypassing challenges.



Aquillion
2008-06-30, 04:49 AM
I was thinking about the rules for bypassing challenges and earning XP a while back, when I hit on an odd paradox.

Now, first of all, we all know that under a system that assigns XP for overcoming challenges, you have to take a broad view of 'overcoming' a challenge -- sneaking past or avoiding a monster has to give the same XP as killing it, say, or you're not only penalizing sneaking players, but penalizing your players for acting intelligently.

So consider this setup: The players have been wandering in the area for a while; the DM already has it well-mapped, and is reluctant to make any major changes on the fly because the players have gotten enough hints and general ideas of what's in the area that any major unexplained change could break the setting.

So, while headed towards a destination in what is known to be monster-infested territory, the players have come to a fork in the path. Down one path is a terrible dragon; down the other path are no dangers at all. The players don't know which is which. The players flip a coin and take a path. Assume the DM is not going to just dictate whether or not they encounter the dragon by fiat; he's already decided where it is (maybe the DM is not quite certain whether or not he's dropped a hint as to its existence and where it is.) Likewise, he's uncertain if he's dropped hints as to the existence/location of a "safe" path, but is unwilling to risk changing it, so one path is definitely safe. In other words, this is not a 'quantum dragon'.

Now, if the players choose the path with no dragon, should they get XP as if they'd overcome it as a challenge, even though they may have never even been aware it existed?

What if the players first use scrying magic, or scout forwards with stealth, or encounter the dragon and then immediately run away, and end up taking the other path? Does this change the result? How much knowledge or encounter or whatever of the dragon (if any) is required before taking the safe path would earn them full XP?

What if there are three paths, two with dragons and one with nothing? Do the players get full XP for overcoming two dragons no matter which one they take? I think that this one at least is a pretty obvious 'no' at first, since there's no rational reason why they would have been fighting both dragons... but suppose they split up to scout, or screw up really badly and cause a massive commotion that attracts both? Do they get XP for overcoming both dragons then, even though they only ended up doing it because of their own poor judgement or incompetence?

(On the other hand, if it were a quantum dragon, blocking scrying would be very very easy. Right as the wizard starts to cast a scrying spell, have a messenger run up with the following letter: "Dear wizard, my momentum is 80 feet / round. Signed, The Dragon.")

Eldritch_Ent
2008-06-30, 04:52 AM
No, they wouldn't get experience for those, because they weren't in any immediate danger from the dragons.

Now if they took the dragon path, then came upon it while it slept and succesfully got away without waking it up or something, THEN they'd get EXP. But not before.

Remember, immediate danger is the key to XP!

kamikasei
2008-06-30, 05:14 AM
(On the other hand, if it were a quantum dragon, blocking scrying would be very very easy. Right as the wizard starts to cast a scrying spell, have a messenger run up with the following letter: "Dear wizard, my momentum is 80 feet / round. Signed, The Dragon.")

I may or may not have lol'd.

Tingel
2008-06-30, 06:21 AM
Now, if the players choose the path with no dragon, should they get XP as if they'd overcome it as a challenge, even though they may have never even been aware it existed?
A challenge is something that challenges the players. Being oblivious of a possible challenge naturally means that said challenge was never met, and as such that said challenge can never be overcome. Obviously there should be no experience award in this situation.

Even if the players were aware of the dragon, simply avoiding him is not worth experience. Consider this situation:

The party is exploring a dungeon and encounters a mega-troll guarding a room. If the players simply turn around and leave (thus avoiding the danger), they never met the challenge and never overcame it, so they do not deserve any award. If however they manage to sneak past the mega-troll, thus avoiding him and yet accepting the challenge issued by danger, then they "overcome" the mega-troll just as if they would have slain him, and thus earn experience.


Neither cowardice nor ignorance should be awarded.

Aasimar
2008-06-30, 06:32 AM
Exactly.

If you awarded XP for not ever facing the challange, even unknowingly, everyone in the world would be epic level, since most of the people avoided going to the Ultimate Temple of Graal and facing the evil clerics there and the demi-god they may or may not have been summoning, they all avoided stumbling across Bane when he was having a bad day and getting in a fight with him, they all avoided a confrontation with Smaug the elder dragon, by virtue of living on the other side of the world and never leaving their village, perhaps.

Talic
2008-06-30, 06:35 AM
No XP, for overcoming a challenge in these manners.

If you want XP for sneaking past a sleeping dragon, you must pass by it, not merely bypass it.

There are a lot of monsters in the world. If players got xp for every one that they knew about, and stayed away from, it would not encourage all skills, it would encourage cowardice.

Now, if the same group had to steal an item from the hoard of said dragon, while it slept 60 feet away? Yes, xp.

Tingel
2008-06-30, 06:39 AM
"Dear wizard, my momentum is 80 feet / round. Signed, The Dragon."
Momentum is not speed. You'd also need to know the dragon's mass, otherwise his location would not be uncertain.

RebelRogue
2008-06-30, 06:53 AM
Momentum is not speed. You'd also need to know the dragon's mass, otherwise his location would not be uncertain.
While momentum is indeed not speed, lack of knowledge of the dragon's mass would not keep if from being totally delocalized if momentum/velocity is known with infinte precision.

Tingel
2008-06-30, 07:12 AM
While momentum is indeed not speed, lack of knowledge of the dragon's mass would not keep if from being totally delocalized if momentum/velocity is known with infinte precision.
Momentum is velocity times mass. Since the dragon gave us his velocity (80 feet / round), we still need to know his mass to guarantee that his location is uncertain. Of course the dragon could also simply tell us his momentum, but since he has already told us his speed we'd be able to derive his mass anyway.

RebelRogue
2008-06-30, 07:22 AM
Momentum is velocity times mass. Since the dragon gave us his velocity (80 feet / round), we still need to know his mass to guarantee that his location is uncertain. Of course the dragon could also simply tell us his momentum, but since he has already told us his speed we'd be able to derive his mass anyway.
\Delta x \Delta p = \Delta x m \Delta v > \hbar <=> \Delta x > \hbar / (m \Delta v)

When \Delta v approaches 0 this means \Delta x approaches infinity, no matter what the value of m is (m cannot be zero since v != c, but if v=c, p=mv is wrong anyway... Hmm, ultrarelativistic dragons! :smalleek:)

Edited: original wording was poor, but a friend visited unexplectedly, so I had to go...
Edit^2: Well, the edit was poorly worded as well :smallwink:

Tingel
2008-06-30, 07:41 AM
\Delta x \Delta p = \Delta x m \Delta v = 0 > \hbar
"Zero is larger than Dirac's constant"? What are you talking about?


Are you honestly attempting to claim that what I said before is wrong?

RebelRogue
2008-06-30, 08:08 AM
"Zero is larger than Dirac's constant"? What are you talking about?


Are you honestly attempting to claim that what I said before is wrong?
I understand your concern. See the edit :)

Dan_Hemmens
2008-06-30, 08:09 AM
While I think "you don't get XP for challenges you avoid" makes most *sense* it does cause some big problems. Suddenly everybody has to adopt this counter-intuitive "grinding" mentality, where they're actively seeking out "challenges."

Charity
2008-06-30, 08:17 AM
My players have done precisely this, electing to travel through the monster infested woods rather than go down the reasonably safe and much quicker road route...
What can you say.
Personally I figure you are going to encounter stuff and gain XP whichever way you go so i tend to happily take the sensible character driven route... and i'm the one who gets accused of beardy powergaming... odd really.

Chronos
2008-06-30, 12:28 PM
Presumably, there's something to be gained by defeating the dragon. If the dragon is guarding a treasure that you want, then recovering the treasure without facing the dragon counts as "defeating" it. If the dragon is terrorizing local villages, and your quest is to stop it, then any means of stopping the dragon (including talking it out of it) is worth XP. But if you just avoid the dragon and whatever your objective is, then it's a no-go.

Note also that the players have to actively avoid the monsters, if that's how they defeat them, to get XP. For instance, suppose they have to get into a castle, and there's a band of trolls patrolling the area around the castle. If they don't know about the trolls, just walk up to the castle, and happen to luck out and not encounter them, they get no XP. However, if they scout ahead, observe the trolls' patrol routine, and figure out the timing to get past when the trolls aren't looking in that area, that is worth XP.

CelestialStick
2008-06-30, 12:33 PM
Um, what the heck is a quantum dragon?! :smallconfused:

Cuddly
2008-06-30, 03:22 PM
Um, what the heck is a quantum dragon?! :smallconfused:

A cousin of the N+1 Dragon. Both are epic challenges, typically faced by Schrodinger's Wizard.

CelestialStick
2008-06-30, 03:28 PM
A cousin of the N+1 Dragon. Both are epic challenges, typically faced by Schrodinger's Wizard.

I'm not familiar with the N+1 dragon, but I gather that the cat was Schrodinger's familiar?

MammonAzrael
2008-06-30, 03:42 PM
Remember, immediate danger is the key to XP!

QFTdoodedoo

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 03:52 PM
An encounter not encountered isn't an encounter at all.

If you're cleaning all the orcs out of a dungeon, and your mapper tells you that you've already been on the other side of that particular door, so you never go through it and never even know about the trap, and get no xp for avoiding it (you didn't encounter the trap).

If you're cleaning all the orcs out a dungeon, locate a trap on a door, and rather than disarming it you ignore it because your mapper tells you you've already been on the other side (and you have a "safe" route around because of this), you've bypassed the trap, and get XP for it, even though the trap is still there (you encountered it).

Vexxation
2008-06-30, 04:16 PM
I'm not familiar with the N+1 dragon, but I gather that the cat was Schrodinger's familiar?

Pretty sure Quantum refers to the idea that without choosing to go down a path, the adventurers won't know whether it holds a dragon.

And for anyone who didn't know, the "momentum" joke is regarding uncertainty.

Aquillion
2008-06-30, 05:51 PM
While I think "you don't get XP for challenges you avoid" makes most *sense* it does cause some big problems. Suddenly everybody has to adopt this counter-intuitive "grinding" mentality, where they're actively seeking out "challenges."To be fair, they're adventurers. Seeking out challenges is perfectly acceptable activity, and there's no reason they shouldn't get XP for thrillseeking.

It's a problem if they feel they have to do it, though, yeah... so I suppose in reality the DM's job is to ensure that they have goals that force them to confront the challenge, and to set up the situation so that they can't bypass them trivially (put a dragon on both paths, in other words).

Now I want to stat out a quantum dragon. Hmm, let's see...

Quantum Dragon
Size/Type: Subatomic Dragon
Special Attacks: Sorcerer casting, subatomic breath
Special Qualities: Superpositioning, Quantum Uncertainty
Organization: Solitary, entangled pair.

Superpositioning (Su): When not observed, a Quantum Dragon has an indeterminate location. At any point, it can occupy whatever square is most favorable to it, as long as it is theoretically possible for it to be in that location. Quantum Dragons will usually open combat by casting True Darkness or some similar spell on themselves to take advantage of this capability.

Quantum Uncertainty (Su): It is impossible for both the momentum and the location of a Quantum Dragon to be known in the same round. Once someone has observed a Quantum Dragon's speed and size category in a given round, all attempts to determine its location in that round automatically fail, and vice-versa.

Flickerdart
2008-06-30, 06:06 PM
I'm not familiar with the N+1 dragon, but I gather that the cat was Schrodinger's familiar?
To clarify, Schroedinger's Insert Class Here refers to a character that usually pops up in an argument on whether or not said class can do X. Since this character is never actually forced to choose spells/feats/class features, the obvious retort to an argument would be "he just casts X", then to the next argument "he just casts Y" and so on. These are all options that the character COULD do, but not all characters of the class will have that option.

For a far simpler example, Schroedinger's Pokemon would be making the Pokemon use 5 or more moves to prove its worth, even though they can only know 4 at once.

To be fair to the character in question, they won't likely have to face all possible challenges either. Just as you fight fire with fire, so can you fight quantum enemies with Schroedinger wizards.

Mewtarthio
2008-06-30, 06:21 PM
While I think "you don't get XP for challenges you avoid" makes most *sense* it does cause some big problems. Suddenly everybody has to adopt this counter-intuitive "grinding" mentality, where they're actively seeking out "challenges."

You mean adventurers are wandering around, actively picking fights with stronger and stronger people, in hopes of becoming the strongest of them all? That actually makes perfect sense to me.

Also, note that they really don't level up that much faster; the "grinding" mentality just gives you an easy plot hook and makes the characters more predictable. In the end, time you spend fighting things just for the sake of fighting is time taken away from moving on with your quest to fight more important things.

SadisticFishing
2008-06-30, 06:29 PM
Meeting the dragon and running away would not grant experience, because it's not a challenge.

Overcome the challenge - steal the dragon's stuff from under his nose. Kill him. Draw rude things on him as he sleeps so that he's so abashed he decides not to fight.

Running away? That is not overcoming the challenge.

Note: This is different when you're traversing a dungeon and skip a fight, as then the challenge is getting farther, not defeating the badguys.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-30, 06:57 PM
Running away? That is not overcoming the challenge.

In Soviet Russia, challenge overcomes you!

If you run from a party of kobolds, do they level up?

erikun
2008-06-30, 10:22 PM
You gain XP for running away? So Kobolds had it right all along! :smalltongue:

Okay, a bit more seriously now. For one point, if the party decides to cut through the forest instead of taking the path, do they get XP? Well, it depends on what they find. If they find an ambush party of Drow, an angry group of territorial elves, or a wandering dragon, then yes, they should get XP. They ran into a challange and overcame it. I mean, that's what makes them adventurers. Lv. 0 merchants and caravans stick to the roads and don't encounter anything - that's why they're level 0. Adventurers go off the beaten track and fight stuff - that's why they gain XP.

Then again, maybe they don't find a dragon. Maybe they just find a couple of goblins and squirrels. That wouldn't be worth any XP, and all they'd be is late to their destination. Don't think that every trip off the road is beneficial.

Now, as for the 3 doors with 2 dragons - how much XP should they get? That depends on if the dragons are going to jump them as soon as they pass through the door. If opening door #1 instantly summons a dragon into the room, then yes, I would say opening the correct door is worth XP (there is a danger in choosing the wrong door). However, if opening door #1 just leads down a path to the dragon's lair, then choosing the correct door shouldn't grant any XP. After all, even if they choose "wrong", they still have the choice of avoiding the dragon.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 12:38 AM
I think there are some cases where avoiding an encounter would count as overcoming it. For instance, maybe there's a Dragon chasing after you. If you collapse the dungeon behind you so it can't get to you, I would count that as overcoming the encounter.

Coming across Tuckers Kobold's and running away from them is a good idea weather or not you gain experience, but I would count that too.

But, if it's easier to avoid something than face it, it should probably be worth less experience. Especially if you can come back and kill it later too :P


Also, any adventurer worthy of the name will slaughter everything in the dungeon, and take everything of value. And I do mean everything. Including the traps.

hamishspence
2008-07-01, 06:42 AM
Might be interesting to see a quantum dragon :smallsmile:

Dragon Magazine last issue gave us Time dragons

The topic reminds me of the remark:
"after several days of being simultaneously punished and not punished, Pavlov's dog learned not to chase after Schrodingers cat"

Storm Bringer
2008-07-01, 06:57 AM
I think there are some cases where avoiding an encounter would count as overcoming it. For instance, maybe there's a Dragon chasing after you. If you collapse the dungeon behind you so it can't get to you, I would count that as overcoming the encounter.

yes, but in this case, their already in danger, hence why they get XP.

let's take this to the absurd:

example one:
a party is walking along a road. they see a cave in a hill nearby. They decide that their current mission is more important than exploring this plot hook, and leave without anything intresting happening. In the cave was a dragon.

Should they get XP for it? No, they were not challenged.

example two:

a party is walking along a road. they see a cave in a hill nearby. they take a look at it, and see thier is a dragon alseep in it. They decide to leg it, not feeling up to taking on this mighty beast, and leave without anything intresting happening.

should they get XP for it? No, they backed down form the challenge

Example three:


a party is walking along a road. they see a cave in a hill nearby. they take a look at it, and see thier is a dragon alseep in it. the thief rogue sneaks into the cave, with a wand of detect magic, and locates and steals several magic items, then manages to excape unhurt.

should they get XP? Yes, their was a good chance that the rogue could have been mauled.

example four

a party is walking along a road. they see a cave in a hill nearby. they take a look at it, and see thier is a dragon alseep in it. The wizard uses a wand of dominate monster on teh dragon, and the dragon fails it's will save. the party take all the loot and the stone shape the cave shut.

XP? yes, they defeated the dragon. and it might have made it's will save, leading to Bad Things.

you get the idea.

hamishspence
2008-07-01, 07:10 AM
2nd ed gave us 3 levels of XP: Win, Defeat, Retreat. Win means you did everything important. Defeat means the overall goal failed, Retreat means after clash you turned and legged it. Might be worth remembering.