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Collin152
2008-06-30, 04:17 PM
So, I'm playing a Human Beguiler in the Shackled City.
And I want your most optimal chocies for advanced learnings. Obviously I'll be shooting for mindrape down the road, but until then, I'm stumped.
I intend to take a level of Mindbender, and am weiging the advantages of Archmage as well.
Please and thank you.

Kurald Galain
2008-06-30, 05:01 PM
Can you do advanced only, or eclectic as well?

Collin152
2008-06-30, 05:08 PM
Advanced only, not ecclectic.
Just as well though, given my love of Enchantment spells.

Chronos
2008-06-30, 05:16 PM
The shadow conjuration/evocation spells are good choices. Granted, evocation is weak in general, but getting (almost) the entire school for a single spell is enough versatility to be worthwhile, and I don't think I need to tell you how great conjuration is. Given that you have a limited number of Advanced Learnings, you'll probably want to pick just one of each school; which level you get depends on what level you're starting with, and which specific spells you'd mimic most often.

Paul H
2008-06-30, 05:30 PM
Hi

Joining an Eberron campaign tomorrow, playing a Changeling Beguiler 6. Came across "Miser's Envy" lvl 3 spell from Spell Compendium. Read it & have a good laugh before you try using it! :smalltongue:

Personally going Beguiler 7 /Recaster x, so the question of higher Advance Learning doesn't apply. (Instead I get 2 spells off any list, plus loads extras).

Cheers
Paul H

Frosty
2008-06-30, 05:33 PM
What do you guys think of doing something like Changeling Beguiler/Chameleon? Ultimate spy?

Collin152
2008-06-30, 05:39 PM
What do you guys think of doing something like Changeling Beguiler/Chameleon? Ultimate spy?

Ultimate identity crisis.
Who you are changes completley on a daily basis... Or even more frequently.

So, really, what are the good Enchantment and illusions not on their list already?

Frosty
2008-06-30, 05:48 PM
Ray of Stupidity is nice. There's also Otto's Irresistable Dance (which you can use Arcane Reach with). Lotsa stuff to be honest.

And hey, you should convince your DM to let you take Flaw (Multiple Personality Disorder) in return for a feat!

mostlyharmful
2008-06-30, 05:52 PM
Ray of Stupidity is nice. There's also Otto's Irresistable Dance (which you can use Arcane Reach with). Lotsa stuff to be honest.

And hey, you should convince your DM to let you take Flaw (Multiple Personality Disorder) in return for a feat!

Or possibly several with a dice roll to see who applies currently.:smallbiggrin:

Collin152
2008-06-30, 05:55 PM
And hey, you should convince your DM to let you take Flaw (Multiple Personality Disorder) in return for a feat!

Hey, I already play that way, given I actually have multiple personalities, but getting a feat for it, that I haven't considered.
Mind you, the campaign is already underway. So, feat selection and flaws are already kinda set.

Frosty
2008-06-30, 06:09 PM
It's be funny. Whenever you change your focus/role, you shift into another personality. You actually ARE Loriel the elven cleric when you prayed for spells this morning. You ARE Malconion the Necromancy specialist later in the day, and you are also Gork the barbarian at night in the tavern winning arm-wrestling contests and wooing tavern-wenches.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-06-30, 06:55 PM
For much later on in the game, Greater Shadow Evocation. It's Forcecage (with NO material cost), Force Wall, and Contingency all wrapped up into one. Everything useful out of the Evocation tree, without having to actually do anything Evokative.

For early on, look up the various splatbooks, since they've pretty much got every single enchantment and illusion spell in the PhB I and II.

Chronicled
2008-06-30, 07:17 PM
Distract Opponent is super, since it's a swift action use for your 1st level spell slots (which tend to get less useful over time). Besides getting an opponent flatfooted for your team, it can be used to activate your Cloaked Casting on the cheap. If you have the Unsettling Enchantment feat, it's just nasty. It's probably the clear winner for best 1st level Advanced Learning, although the Beguiler Handbook on the WotC forums might have a couple other options.

As for your second time around... Shadow Conjuration has been mentioned if you get to choose from 4th level spells (depending on when that Mindbender level comes in), but otherwise:

Shadow Spray from the SpC gives you a valuable Fort-based AoE debuff (save vs Daze and -4 Str). Unfortunately, the targets whom you'd want to drop the Str of are probably going to have a high Fort save. Still useful for the Daze effect, though.

Bestow Gift (also SpC) is possibly my favorite since it has both in combat and out of combat applications. If you use it to force the BBEG to hand over the McGuffin, you can follow it up with Invisibility/Blinding Color Surge/Mirror Image (or Greater Mirror Image), and high-tail it out of there.

Heroism isn't a bad choice, if you'd like to have some more buff options available.

Collin152
2008-06-30, 07:21 PM
I likes the sound of Distract opponant.

And as for shadow conjuration...
What spells would I be most often replicating?

Hmm... I should really get around to learning the party sorcerer's spells... Might help me plan how to backstab them all with mindraping goodness better use spells for the group effort.

Chronicled
2008-06-30, 07:45 PM
And as for shadow conjuration...
What spells would I be most often replicating?

Ideally, stuff that doesn't offer a save. Phantom Steed, for instance (which, btw, fits in perfectly with Beguiler fluff. Shadowstuff horse, gogo!).

Collin152
2008-06-30, 08:01 PM
Ideally, stuff that doesn't offer a save. Phantom Steed, for instance (which, btw, fits in perfectly with Beguiler fluff. Shadowstuff horse, gogo!).

Ah, yes, the Phantom Steed. No spellcaster should be without one.

What about Sleet Storm? Good spell for it?

Jack_Simth
2008-06-30, 08:53 PM
For much later on in the game, Greater Shadow Evocation. It's Forcecage (with NO material cost), Force Wall, and Contingency all wrapped up into one. Everything useful out of the Evocation tree, without having to actually do anything Evokative.
Yes, but they get a save vs. being stopped by the wall. With Contingency, though, you get to willingly forgo the save for your own spell that you didn't need to make anyway because you had absolute proof (as the caster) that the effect is mostly illusory. That tends to give DM's headaches, or leave them blinking for a little while when they realize it.

The Shadow line is a very good one to pick up - it offers a lot of flexibility for the casting. You should be pumping your illusion save DC if you go that route, though, due to the double-save mechanic. It's one of the few times you'll want to take both spell focus and it's greater counterpart. Shadow Conjuration, the 4th level spell, gets you Phantom Steed and Sepia Snake Sigil (and, as it's a standard action, with no material components, you can put one on every page of every writing you have, given time...), Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud (Fort save or no fighting back effectively), Acid Arrow, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust (Will save or no fighting back effectively), Summon Swarm, Web (Reflex save or no fighting back effectively), Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Obscurring Mist, Unseen Servant (great utility on that one - there's some things you just don't want to touch), and Summon Monster I, II, and III. Granted, the double-save mechanic makes a lot of those less useful... but the save is increased to begin with (it's a fourth level spell, rather than a third) and when you take both Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (and gnomishness, if you can - the Whisper Gnome makes a great Beguiler... but you're already human, so that's a no-go for you). A Beguiler benefits rather well from Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) anyway, simply because the Beguiler gets a lot of illusions.

Leewei
2008-06-30, 09:28 PM
Black karma curse (PHB2) is a personal favorite. The damage scales extremely well for a level 2 spell. Heroism has already been mentioned. Greater heroism isn't bad, especially if you have Chain Spell.

Collin152
2008-06-30, 10:49 PM
Hmm, definatley taking Shadow Conjuraiton first I can, then.

Question.
Arcane Reach has it's uses, but is Mastery of Shaping any good for a Beguiler?

Paul H
2008-07-01, 08:38 AM
Hi

OK - Shadow Conjuration & Shadow Evocation are nice, but what about Phantasmal Killer?

Cheers
Paul H

Paul H
2008-07-01, 09:06 AM
Hi

Just tried looking through the PHB & Spell Compendium to see what spells were available to learn. Stupid, stupid, stupid idea.

In the PHB alone there's the highly flexible 'Shadow....' & Heroism series mentioned. There's also Phantasmal Killer, Persistent, Permanent & Programmed Image series.

I gave up looking through the Spell Compendium after 2nd lvl spells.

Phantasmal Assailants does Wis & Dex damage. Shadow Spray Str damage in 5' radius.

Personaly I'd take Serene Visage at first, then either Misers Envy or Shadow Binding. (It's similar to Evard's Tentacles, but no damage).

Cheers
Paul H

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 01:25 PM
Hi

OK - Shadow Conjuration & Shadow Evocation are nice, but what about Phantasmal Killer?

Cheers
Paul H

It offers 2 saves, which makes it sucky most of the time.

Phantasmal Assailants isn't quite as bad, but still not worth it.

Frosty
2008-07-01, 01:28 PM
Phantasmal killer is a rogue killer at best, and a waste of a turn otherwise.

Saph
2008-07-01, 01:50 PM
Ray of Dizziness (SPC) is a personal favourite.

Heroism is nice too for the all-round +2 bonus - not many things give morale bonuses, so it stacks well. Buy a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and it'll last for hours.

Finding a good level 1 pick is harder. Ventriloquism is probably the most fun - it's of limited utility, but it suits a Beguiler perfectly.

- Saph

Paul H
2008-07-02, 06:54 AM
Hi

See that the poster chose Shadow Conjuration. Good choice. Don't forget the 'Lssr Orb' series for the elemental damage. No save* - No SR. At least now you can hurt all those things previously immune to your spells.

*(OK, you get save vs Shadow Conjuration, but not the immitated spell itself).

Cheers
Paul H

marjan
2008-07-02, 07:03 AM
Hi

See that the poster chose Shadow Conjuration. Good choice. Don't forget the 'Lssr Orb' series for the elemental damage. No save* - No SR. At least now you can hurt all those things previously immune to your spells.

*(OK, you get save vs Shadow Conjuration, but not the immitated spell itself).

Cheers
Paul H

Shadow Conjuration allows SR, even if the spell it mimics doesn't. Still it is good spell.

Collin152
2008-07-02, 02:34 PM
Hi

See that the poster chose Shadow Conjuration. Good choice. Don't forget the 'Lssr Orb' series for the elemental damage. No save* - No SR. At least now you can hurt all those things previously immune to your spells.

*(OK, you get save vs Shadow Conjuration, but not the immitated spell itself).

Cheers
Paul H

Given that the rest of the party does damage well enough, I'd be best served to buff them rather than throw an illusion of not very much damage.

Paul H
2008-07-02, 03:16 PM
Hi

Not sure if any party can do too much damage, but it's useful to do more than buff when you need to.

Since this is about what spells to take as 'Advanced Learning', and most of the buffs are either already on the list or simply not available (like Transutation spells), then diversity might be an idea. (But not the only one).

Remember, Mage Armour, Summon x, are all conjuration.

Cheers
Paul H

Collin152
2008-07-02, 03:20 PM
Hi

Not sure if any party can do too much damage, but it's useful to do more than buff when you need to.

Since this is about what spells to take as 'Advanced Learning', and most of the buffs are either already on the list or simply not available (like Transutation spells), then diversity might be an idea. (But not the only one).

Remember, Mage Armour, Summon x, are all conjuration.

Cheers
Paul H

Mage armor is already on the list.
Furthermore, while it is about Advanced Learning, it must be noted that having a spell that you never use is in fact a horrible waste of an Advanced Learning, and if I'd be using spells already on my list rather than blast with a 'save for 20%' effect, I should think that using it for the orb spells is an inferior choice.

Paul H
2008-07-02, 04:34 PM
Hi

Oops, my bad, :smalleek: I meant Gtr Mage Armour & Mass Mage Armour.

The 20% damage is only if they pass their will save. And who said about never using it? IMHO the whole idea is about options. As you pointed out Phantom Steed is good.

There are other options out there, just depends on personal choice and what you want your character to do.

Cheers
Paul H

Paul H
2008-07-09, 09:57 AM
Hi

Just remembered - try the Power Word... spells from Races of the Dragon.
(Power Word Pain. etc).

Cheers
Paul H

Draz74
2008-07-09, 10:59 AM
People keep mentioning Heroism, but isn't Heroics also Enchantment? And so versatile for buffing your party's warriors! I definitely recommend it.

Craig1f
2008-07-09, 01:59 PM
I like Shock and Awe as your first advanced learning, because it scales better since there is no saving throw.

If you cast it as a swift action in a surprise round, all effected creatures take a -10 to their upcomming initiative roll. This makes surprising the enemy much more powerful, since your party is almost guaranteed to get a standard action and a full action before the enemy has a turn.

Chronicled
2008-07-09, 07:53 PM
People keep mentioning Heroism, but isn't Heroics also Enchantment? And so versatile for buffing your party's warriors! I definitely recommend it.

Unfortunately for Beguilers, Heroics is a Transmutation spell.