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JohnnyArkham
2008-06-30, 11:18 PM
This is a direct spinoff of this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83744)

The more I converse with this Player, the more I realize that he doesn't really want to play a Cleric. In fact, I'm uncertain as to why he chose that role in the first place...and we're now 2 games in.
I'm flexible enough to allow a total class change at this point; many characters are still a little fluid.

But I'm not sure where to take him.
He wants to be able to heal the party. That part he digs.
But he really envisions himself as more of a combat medic than a Cleric...and the Paladin didn't seem to interest him at all, oddly enough.
I think it might be the Lawful GOOD thing.
He's really into the Law aspect and has embraced that wholeheartedly, but doesn't seem the character as fully GOOD.

He's also taken a stance with the Warforged as being bland and lacking in personality; Low charisma. Thus even the party-boosting/Healing of the Bard makes little sense.

He's way too militant for the Healer base class...and Favored Soul seems at odds with his vanilla personality.

I'm running out of options.

Anyone have any ideas that might help?

Thanks so much

The Desperate Mr. Arkham

BRC
2008-06-30, 11:21 PM
Re-Fluff the cleric IMO. Let him pick a pair of random domains and describe himself as a mage-medic instead of a cleric. Maybe he was a special-built medical warforged built to channel positive energy (Representing his heal spells)

MammonAzrael
2008-06-30, 11:28 PM
I didn't read the whole other thread, just the original post, so sorry if you covered this already. Have him go Crusader from Tome of Battle. It's a great militant healer, what the Paladin should have been, without the alignment restrictions. And it's healing abilities are Extraordinary, and thus work at fully power on Warforged.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 01:46 AM
Yeah, Crusader seems a good fit. Otherwise, I don't recall reading that Favored Souls HAD to have interesting personalities.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 01:49 AM
They need high Cha to cast spells, though. Don't Crusaders need Cha as well, though? (The concept of a FS Warforged is interresting, though).

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 01:50 AM
They need high Cha to cast spells, though. Don't Crusaders need Cha as well, though? (The concept of a FS Warforged is interresting, though).

It's quite helpful but not needed. All the ToB classes have a mental stat that works like that.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 01:54 AM
Thaks for telling me (I've only seen the stats for Warblades, so I don't know much about Swordsages or Crusaders).

RTGoodman
2008-07-01, 01:58 AM
It's quite helpful but not needed. All the ToB classes have a mental stat that works like that.

Specifically, they get Indomitable Will (Cha modifier to Will saves, but doesn't stack with the Paladin's Divine Grace ability), Smite (+Cha attack, +level damage, I think), and some maneuvers may have some Charisma synergy (though not any of the low-levels ones that I've seen). You can get away with mostly Str and Con, but Cha and Wis can't hurt. All of your healing is just basically "you or an ally heals 2 damage" or "you or an ally heals Xd6 damage +1 per initiator level," and as MammonAzrael said it's all Extraordinary (meaning Warforged benefit from it fully).

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 02:24 AM
Is it the Cleric class itself, or the Cleric fluff? If it's the Fluff, you can always drop that. They could be casting "like" a Cleric, but not actually be a Cleric. Maybe the warforged stumbled across the mathmatical formula that describes god(s), and is therefore able to cast divine spells. For added fun, they might not believe in gods.

Archivist might work. It's int casting too. Though I've heard they can be overpowered. But you can keep the especially nasty spells out of their reach. You could even go so far as to make it basically an int casting cleric. Going so far as to say that the PC can only use scrolls of domains they pick.


Psions can buff and heal a bit. Psychic Robot? What's not to love? They might not be good enough at healing at buffing though. They can be be versatile though.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 02:32 AM
For Archivists, I had the idea of letting them use Int for bonus spells while limiting them to normal Cleric spells and spells from 2 Domains which fit with their beliefs/personalty. That would stop them from getting spells at lower levels (eg: Lesser Restoration and Heal) while learning pretty much every spell in the game.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 02:53 AM
For Archivists, I had the idea of letting them use Int for bonus spells while limiting them to normal Cleric spells and spells from 2 Domains which fit with their beliefs/personalty. That would stop them from getting spells at lower levels (eg: Lesser Restoration and Heal) while learning pretty much every spell in the game.

... What I had in mind, but much more concise.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 03:34 AM
Thanks. :smallsmile: My idea is that they would still have some room for flavour/versatillity, but they are now much less likely to break the game.

Curmudgeon
2008-07-01, 03:43 AM
I'd still recommend Favored Soul, because that makes for a militant healer type pretty readily. You could spice it up by having him be an Aasimar, which provides bonuses that dovetail nicely with the class stats.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 03:46 AM
It also has an LA, and it isn't a Warforged, so it doesn't really fit with what the player in question wants.

Eldariel
2008-07-01, 06:48 AM
My personal method for using Archivist is to give them access to all Divine spells, but force them to use the Cleric-version is available, followed by Favored Soul, Druid, and then the half-caster classes. That effectively means, he won't learn any spells under their normal level, but has a more varied list compared to a Cleric (but with the burden of limited spells known and the need for acquiring scrolls).

There was actually a list for "priorities of sources between casters" in some book which tells in which order to use the versions of a spell available to X. I cannot seem to find it, but I found it handy for the Archivist (so no überlow level stuff from Adept, for example).


Anyways, Archivist (Int-based casting could actually work), just plain ol' Cleric (they kick ass and chew bubblegum in combat if they happen to feel like it, so the 'militant'-part is covered), Crusader (actual martial character) and Psionics could work; Psionics offer decent amount of self-healing with combat abilities thrown in (Binder and Incarnum-stuff could work there too).

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 06:51 AM
That sounds like an interresting Archivist fix. Don't Favoured Souls and Clerics use the same spell list, though?

kamikasei
2008-07-01, 07:02 AM
But I'm not sure where to take him.
He wants to be able to heal the party. That part he digs.
But he really envisions himself as more of a combat medic than a Cleric...and the Paladin didn't seem to interest him at all, oddly enough.
I think it might be the Lawful GOOD thing.

What does that actually mean? What's stopping him from playing a cleric as a combat medic? Does he want to be heavier on the combat (clerics can do that perfectly well) or on the medic? Is it the religious side of the class that bothers him? In Eberron it's easy enough to say he's just devoted to healing others and doesn't much care or consider where his spells are being granted from.

Eldariel
2008-07-01, 07:15 AM
That sounds like an interresting Archivist fix. Don't Favoured Souls and Clerics use the same spell list, though?

I recall there may have been some FS-only spells although I could remember wrong. If I am, obviously one is free to remove it from the list.

JeminiZero
2008-07-01, 07:34 AM
And now for something uttely insane...

Have the entire party take Tomb Tainted Soul. Make your Warforged 1 commoner / 6 Warlock with Chicken Infested, Dead Walk and Corpse Crafter/Destructive Retribution.

Shove bags of holding full of chicken corpses. Pull them out and animate them when the party needs healing.

OK, now for something not so insane. Does he really want Warforged that badly? You could have him use a Pseudo Warforged by taking a couple of levels in Renegade Mastermaker. Less stat penalties, at the cost of lost Caster levels. Might work better than Warforged for something Wis/Cha based.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 07:36 AM
What does Chicken Infested do exactly, and how would it help with healing the party?

JeminiZero
2008-07-01, 07:51 AM
Its a whole bunch of stuff together really.

Tomb Tainted Soul: You are healed by negative energy and hurt by positive energy.

Dead Walk: Warlock power that animates undead... for free, no black onyx needed, for the first few minutes at least.

Destructive Retribution: Undead you animate explode and deal 1d6 negative energy when killed. Add on Tomb Tainted soul, and your allies will be healed by this burst.

Chicken Infested: Commoner flaw that grants you a limitless supply of chickens, and hence chicken corpses to animate with Dead Walk.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 07:54 AM
Thanks for explaining. How is Chicken Infested a flaw? It sounds like it would be useful for a Commoner. The problem with that build is that it's not useful for the first few levels, and it can't really help with negative conditions (UMD could help with that, though). Also, it doesn't look that useful for in-combat healing.

JeminiZero
2008-07-01, 08:14 AM
Thanks for explaining. How is Chicken Infested a flaw? It sounds like it would be useful for a Commoner.


The flaw is that the chickens appear at random, 50/50 chance everytime you draw something out of a container. Say you were dying and reaching for that potion. You pull out a chicken instead. The next round, the enemy finishes you off with magic missle.

Of course, there are lots of abuses for it. Limitless chickens = limitless cash if you ignore the laws of supply and demand. Less abusive builds use Vow of Poverty and Drunken Master improvised weapon proficiency, to use the chickens as magic weapons.




Also, it doesn't look that useful for in-combat healing.

A Warlock can animate 2x his Invoker Level worth of undead per casting of Dead Walk. Chicken skellies are 1/4 HD, so a Warlock can animate 8 per invoker level.

Imagine the party is cornered and down to its last legs. What to do? The 1 commoner/6 warlock turns his BoH inside out and drops 48+ chicken corpses, and animates them all at once. Then the Fighter uses Great Cleave to slash through all of them. Or the Cleric spends a Turn undead to turn them into dust. Or the Wizard then drops some area spell to kill them all at once.

Anyway, the chickens die in a massive 48d6 negative energy explosion. The living enemies closest to you probably drop dead out right. Your party on the other hand, returns to full health. And you can repeat this every round, so long as you have your chicken corpses.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-01, 08:17 AM
i never thought about it like that (I assumed you could only use 1 chicken corpse/round). That would be cheesy.

Hal
2008-07-01, 08:24 AM
Thanks for explaining. How is Chicken Infested a flaw? It sounds like it would be useful for a Commoner. The problem with that build is that it's not useful for the first few levels, and it can't really help with negative conditions (UMD could help with that, though). Also, it doesn't look that useful for in-combat healing.

I believe it's because in combat, if you try to pull a weapon or other object, you'll randomly pull a chicken instead.

Is multiclassing an option? There are various combinations you can do with cleric (such as rogue or fighter) that work nicely. As someone said above, Crusader is a decent option as well.

Alternatively, he could be a bard. Bards a bit harder to effectively turn into combat machines, but with the right combination he can be pretty effective (Snowflake Wardance + High Inspire Courage bonus), and bards have healing spells on their class list.

I might try to get him to figure out what he wants, though. Clerics can totally be combat medics, and good isn't a problem (St. Cuthbert is LN, after all). He wants to heal, but doesn't dig all the major healing classes.

JohnnyArkham
2008-07-01, 08:55 AM
The Chicken thing was an interesting diversion.... :smalltongue:

Thanks for all the suggestions, folks. It's given me a few things to think about, research, and submit to the Player.

I'm sure I'll be back with more...

Peace!

valadil
2008-07-01, 08:58 AM
Is multiclassing an option? There are various combinations you can do with cleric (such as rogue or fighter) that work nicely. As someone said above, Crusader is a decent option as well.


I was gonna suggest that too. A combat healer who is too into fighting to be a cleric should be a fighter cleric or paladin cleric. I'm sure there's a PrC out there that your friend can aim for. I've always been a fan of mighty contender of Kord. Half casting (which makes sense for this guy) and it boosts the hell out of your strength domain ability.

Flickerdart
2008-07-01, 09:25 AM
For the awesome chicken thing, you can just use a spell component pouch, because taking a component out (or dropping it) is a free action. So you get as many chickens as your heart desires, before the Fighter Great Cleaves them all and you have as many chicken corpses as you desire. Then next turn you raise them and he kills them again. A turn slower, but you don't need to cart around smelly chicken corpses.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 05:46 PM
... That chicken abuse is awesome.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-01, 08:30 PM
... That chicken abuse is awesome.

That kind of thing is what I miss now that my group has gone 4e.

Jack Mann
2008-07-01, 08:59 PM
For Archivists, I had the idea of letting them use Int for bonus spells while limiting them to normal Cleric spells and spells from 2 Domains which fit with their beliefs/personalty. That would stop them from getting spells at lower levels (eg: Lesser Restoration and Heal) while learning pretty much every spell in the game.

Eh, you don't want to limit them too much. Archivists are utility casters at heart, and the basic cleric list is pretty poor for them (it's designed for someone who actually goes into combat, where the archivist should never go). As well, if they can't learn any spells outside of the cleric list, there isn't much reason to play them, since the cleric's spellcasting (knows all spells on his spell list, gets slightly more spells per day) is better, and clerics also have better BAB and hit dice. I use a variant of Eldariel's fix, combined with vetting any spells the cleric gets that are from the more exotic spell lists. It's a bit more work for the DM, but it ultimately allows the archivist to do what he's meant to (work as a divine utility caster) while keeping them from becoming too powerful.

For the original poster, I agree that we need more information on exactly what the player wants to accomplish before we can render more advice.

Hawriel
2008-07-01, 10:43 PM
Take a look at the Hospitalar PRC. its a militant healer that does not lose caster levels. Its in complete devine.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 10:45 PM
Take a look at the Hospitalar PRC. its a militant healer that does not lose caster levels. Its in complete devine.

Unless it's been errata'd, my Complete Divine says it loses 3 caster levels over the 10 PrC levels.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 12:52 AM
Jack Mann, how balanced would you say my Archivist variant is compared with other classes? I was just curious due to how I see it as being similar to the Cloistered Cleric (apart from the fact that Divine Metamagic can't be used with Archivists unless there's a feat or item which grants Turn Undead uses for non-Clerics).

Jack Mann
2008-07-02, 09:41 AM
Eh... It's still a bit behind. Remember, the cloistered cleric still knows every spell he can cast, where the archivist has to learn them, and he can spontaneously cast heal spells, which is likewise a fair advantage. As well, he gets the domain granted powers, not just the spells. And he doesn't need eight hours of sleep to be able to prepare his spells each morning. Your archivist is basically paying to be not as good as the cloistered cleric.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-02, 09:59 AM
I never honestly considered that. Alternatively, would giving them access to the full Druid spell list as well be better? (I'm curious about how few spells I can add to the class while making it balanced.:smalltongue:)

Eldariel
2008-07-02, 10:51 AM
They're fine as is as long as you use the 'use full caster versions first'-rule; what makes them dumb is the ability to cast all spells on much lower levels than any other caster (Heal on 5, Dispel Magic on 1, Restoration on 4, etc.) while being a full caster themselves. With that gone, they'll be a Cleric who has to learn spells, needs two stats for spellcasting (Wis for extra slots and Int for the spells themselves), has lower HP and saves along with lower normal BAB, no Domain powers, spontaneous conversion or Turn Undead (without Prestige dip in Sacred Exorcist or such), but ultimately has an immensely larger spell selection and better skillpoints (worse than Cloistered though) along with few advancing class abilities (Dark Knowledge).

It's balanced when compared to other full casters; that is totally overpowered compared to non-casters, but you already knew that. However, if you've fixed the gap between full casters and non-casters one way or another, they're fine (since they're automatically fixed when spells are fixed as they draw their spells from others' lists).

Hawriel
2008-07-02, 03:52 PM
Unless it's been errata'd, my Complete Divine says it loses 3 caster levels over the 10 PrC levels.

Your right. I checked it again. There are three levels whare you don't get a spell level. not realy a big deal. Instead you can lay on hands as a paladin, full bab, good fort saves, and a bonus feat when you dont get a spell level. The class also has remove desease up to twice a week. It also has full martial, simple and armor/shield profs. All and all this is a pritty bad ass fighting cleric with some extra healing. To make up for lost caster levels take that feat wich gives you a +4 bonus to caster levels when figuring spell power. You then have two other feats to do with what you will.

{edit} I forgot to mention. With the Healing and protection domanes really make this class work. War and good would work too. {end edit}

I think this is the best class/PRC for a militint healer. Which is what the OP was asking for. The only other was is the war priest in the same book. I'm just not fond of that class because I dont think some of its abilities reflect what I think a war priest is.

Jack Mann
2008-07-02, 05:41 PM
They do better. Druid has some good utility, especially if you have spell compendium.

Honestly, the biggest gamebreaker is the domain access. That's the point where they get nearly everything a wizard gets, plus more hit points, skill points, and armor proficiency. But there... Well, I don't like to take the domains completely away from them for two reasons. For one thing, there are a lot of really fun spells in the domains, and it's nice for them to see some use. The second reason is that to fill the utility role, they need spells that clerics and druids don't usually get. Teleport, for example. Identify (though admittedly, cloistered clerics do get the spell). Any of the spells that give a safe place to sleep. Haste. I want the utility caster to have these spells. So, I just have the player run the spells past me first. I can keep him from having the more broken spells, and let him have the ones that are either fun, or just handy for the party in general. I'd do the same if he played a wizard, after all.

The big trick is to keep it pared away just enough that playing a regular wizard is still competitive, while letting the archivist fill that role. The trick is to let them have a good selection of spells, but don't let them have all the spells they want, or let them have them immediately. Again, I do something similar with wizards, though I'm more permissive with them.

erikun
2008-07-02, 10:51 PM
The undead chicken stunt is absurd.

If the player really doesn't want to play a Cleric, there is always the Ardent class in Complete Psionic. It can make a Cleric-ish healer with the Life Mantle.

Beyond that, why not just make the character a Cleric? Just allow them to be a LN Warforged Cleric, and say that Gond (or whoever) is supplying the character's powers because he thinks the idea is awesome. Just because the character is a Cleric and goes around healing people doesn't mean that he's a preacher.

Chronicled
2008-07-02, 11:26 PM
The undead chicken stunt is absurd.

If the player really doesn't want to play a Cleric, there is always the Ardent class in Complete Psionic. It can make a Cleric-ish healer with the Life Mantle.

Beyond that, why not just make the character a Cleric? Just allow them to be a LN Warforged Cleric, and say that Gond (or whoever) is supplying the character's powers because he thinks the idea is awesome. Just because the character is a Cleric and goes around healing people doesn't mean that he's a preacher.

Depending on the god, his offerings could be the souls of people he's killed. The hour of prayer can also be reflavored--heck, to expand upon this last idea, he could absorb the souls of the recently (and nearby) dead into his body, and spend an hour each day bartering/exchanging them for spells. If you don't want him turning into a evil slaughterhouse, have innocent/etc souls "cancel out" the bad guy souls.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that with a little reflavoring, you can make any class quite awesome and appealing. You might just try that.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-03, 12:23 AM
Thanks for the Archivist advice. Would letting them use Int for bonus spells with Jack's fix unbalance them too much? (I can't see any justification for it from either a fluff or crunch persective).

Jack Mann
2008-07-03, 03:00 AM
I'd leave it as is. It's a good way to keep them from overshadowing wizards. From a fluff perspective, just play it as the archivist's way of understanding divine spells on a closer level.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-03, 03:39 AM
If I was mainly including that feature so that they get the same number of spells as a specialist Wizard (admittedly, I just don't like the idea of sfull casters needing more then 1 stat to cast pells effectively).

hamishspence
2008-07-03, 08:17 AM
well there is the healer (very, very underpowered) from Miniatures Handbook.

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-03, 08:26 AM
I'd forgotten about that. Apart from adding their Cha modifier to HPs restores while getting a Celestial animal as a friend, what are their other class features? I know they have a d8 HD, poor BAB and proficiency with leather armour only. Their spell list can be found at http://www.devinweb.com/healerspells.htm . Would allowing them to spontaneously cast any spells on their list while adding a some non-lethal battlefield control spells and buffs to their list help them? Also, how many skill points do they have?