Monsters that need new CRs

[JMobius]

A few weeks ago, my team of four at CL 4 (warblade, swordsage, spellthief, and myself as a favored soul) ended up losing one of our number to a pair of CR 3 runehounds. While technically this was a CR appropriate encounter, we survived only because of two lucky crits.

Two weeks later, following a quest to obtain the funds to raise our fallen companion, there was a near-TPK with myself as the sole standing member at CL 6 against a group of four fleshraker dinosaurs, a CR 4 encounter. I fortunately had managed to put everyone under a lesser vigor before they bled out.

The CR system is not perfect, as such entities as the "damn crab" will indicate. I'm curious what other creatures other players might find to be a little under-labeled... in no large part because our GM has stated a preference for throwing such creatures at us, and I want to be armed with knowledge beforehand. :smallbiggrin:

[ZeroSpace9000]

Without exeception, the Allip should be tweaked. At CR3, it is incorporeal, and it's touch does Wis Drain, so if the cleric or w/e gets teamed on, you need to put the adventure on hold to get him restored. Although this is 'offset' by low HP/HD, it just does horrible things to an unprepared group.

Actually, I think the one thing that WotC though made it balanced is it's Undead status, and that the cleric that should be in the group can handle it. But woe to the group who doesn't have a cleric. And even if you do have a cleric, you aren't destroying it unless you are a dedicated turner (unlikely), or you're lvl 6.

[bosssmiley]

Dragons, Angels and (IIRC) Beholders are infamously under-CRed.
In most other cases just watch out for synergy cheese (packs of shocker lizards + shambling mounds) or power creep (MM3, 4 + 5).

In most cases creatures like fleshrakers, giant vermin and most giants are situationally dangerous (avoid melee). You take ranks in Knowledge skills so the DM can clue you to avoid walking into their combat traps.

[marjan]

Ephemeral Swarm (MMIII) - tiny swarm, incorporeal, 9HD (90hp), 1d6 str damage - CR 5. Yeah, right.

[Saph]

Dread Wraiths are infamously nasty. Officially they're CR 11, but can quite easily kill a 12th- or 13th-level party in the right circumstances. If you get jumped by one in an enclosed space, about all you can do is pray the DM isn't good with monster tactics.

- Saph

[JMobius]

Dragons, Angels and (IIRC) Beholders are infamously under-CRed.
In most other cases just watch out for synergy cheese (packs of shocker lizards + shambling mounds) or power creep (MM3, 4 + 5).

Our GM favors MM 3-4 (don't think he has 5) for exactly the reason they tend to have what he's looking for. ;)

Oh, I forgot, but at CL 2 our party plus another party of four CL 2 adventurers all got involved in a combat with one CR 4 hound archon. Freaking ow.

[Another_Poet]

Yeah, even the MM2 has a lot of problems. A lot.

I wouldn't mind my DM using monsters from all those books (in fact I'd like the diversity) and I wouldn't even mind near TPKs from time to time - but I would ask my DM to give us the appropriate XP for our troubles. If he's intentionally using CR3 monsters that he knows should be more like CR5 then you should get the XP for a CR5.

ap

[TheElfLord]

Worgs are really nasty at CR 2. 30 HP, a +7 to attack and 1d6+4 damage means they are a pain to deal with.

[Frost]

Allip: At that level most characters can't even hurt them.
RuneHound: It can start by killing half the party before you even close with it, then it sticks them and continues killing. This thing is crazy.

Some Kochran in Book of Vile Darkness.

CR 6: Casts Blasphemy at CL 12 once a day.

Chance of Party TPK? Very good.

[Epinephrine]

We fought a manticore at level 5 (party of 5, and we were gestalt, so we're more like 5 level 6s), which is meant to be a CR 5 encounter, and it could have mopped us up. That tail lash is nasty, and when the enemy flies low level teams are often much less effective.

A flying enemy capable of making 6 ranged attacks (+8, 1d8+2) per round for several rounds, and who has flyby attack (sure, he can take an attack of opportunity during it, but it beats getting pounded on by the team) is quite a foe. At ~6th level you don't have a ton of defenses, and a squishy character can expect to be hit with 3+ tail spikes in a volley, easily. It's a lot of front loaded damage, since he can do 6 attacks a round while you are forced to potshot him.

[RTGoodman]

Worgs are really nasty at CR 2. 30 HP, a +7 to attack and 1d6+4 damage means they are a pain to deal with.

Also, they're intelligent and can communicate vocally, meaning they can set up ambushes and use tactics and whatnot. It's great when your PCs can't speak Goblin. :smalltongue:

@Epinephrine: In my experience with Manticores (albeit as the DM), they're not that bad. I mean, yes they can fly, but it really SUCKS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) at flying (with a Clumsy 50 ft. fly speed). Unless it takes a double move, it can't make a 180 degree turn in a single round (since it has to move at least 25 ft. in one direction to maintain minimum forward speed). The spikes are still dangerous and it can fling those while flying, but it'll run out eventually.

[Chronos]

A few weeks ago, my team of four at CL 4 (warblade, swordsage, spellthief, and myself as a favored soul) ended up losing one of our number to a pair of CR 3 runehounds. While technically this was a CR appropriate encounter, we survived only because of two lucky crits.

Two weeks later, following a quest to obtain the funds to raise our fallen companion, there was a near-TPK with myself as the sole standing member at CL 6 against a group of four fleshraker dinosaurs, a CR 4 encounter. I fortunately had managed to put everyone under a lesser vigor before they bled out.I think the math is a bit off in both of these cases. A single creature of a given CR is supposed to be an appropriate encounter for a party of the same level. If there are more, each doubling of the number of creatures adds 2 to the effective encounter level. So if a single runehound is CR 3, then a pair of them is CR 5, which should in principle be a difficult encounter for a party of four 4th-level characters. One death is more than is expected for an encounter at this difficulty, but it can happen. Likewise, I don't know what the CR is of a single fleshraker is, but the encounter level for four of them should be 4 higher than that.

That said, though, fleshrakers are in fact widely recognized as being very nasty for their supposed power level. This is also why they're so popular with druids, both as wildshape forms and as animal companions.

With certain monsters (including dragons, angels, and beholders), the issue is the so-called "[awesome] subtype". The game designers wanted encounters with these monsters to be memorable, and so deliberately gave them challenge ratings lower than they deserved. The idea was that this way, "level-appropriate" parties would have more difficulty fighting them, and therefore remember the battle better. In actuality, though, the only real effects are that, first, DMs who don't know about the [awesome] subtype can very easily accidentally TPK their players, and second, if the party does manage to defeat the creature, they get less XP and treasure than they deserve.

[AslanCross]

Yeah, even the MM2 has a lot of problems. A lot.

One of them is the Nimblewright. It's only CR 7, but is an intelligent construct. It deals crits on a roll of 12-20 and automatically trips (prone, I don't even think it's a trip attempt) on a crit. It has 22 dex and Combat Reflexes too. I liked the concept so I had to homebrew it. Ended up CR 9 large monster.

A lot of the core incorporeal undead are incredibly dangerous. They're hard to hit and deal ability damage via touch. Don't even mention the dread wraiths.

The ogre mage, on the other hand, is weird. CR 8, but a couple of his spell-like abilities are useless against a CR 8 party. On the other hand, he has at-will invisibility and regeneration, making him incredibly annoying. Furthermore, even if you mix him with a group of ogres, they'd be CR 2---not much of a threat at all. (The mage's cone of cold would likely kill them too.)
I like the redone ogre mage that Wizards posted on their site, though.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a

[Epinephrine]

@Epinephrine: In my experience with Manticores (albeit as the DM), they're not that bad. I mean, yes they can fly, but it really SUCKS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) at flying (with a Clumsy 50 ft. fly speed). Unless it takes a double move, it can't make a 180 degree turn in a single round (since it has to move at least 25 ft. in one direction to maintain minimum forward speed). The spikes are still dangerous and it can fling those while flying, but it'll run out eventually.

Oh, I know they suck at flying, but it's the huge front-loaded opening volley; if we'd had anyone with d4 or d6 hit points we'd have lost a player, the opening volley (4 hits) did 30 damage to me (average is 26), and at level 5 that's pretty nasty.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Our very well balanced party of ECL 11 characters got humiliated by a friggin Osyluth (bone devil). Those things are CR 9, yet it was easily the most challenging encounter in a dungeon fraught with EL 13+ encounters. Ice Wall at will is deadly in close quarters situations, and we rolled like crap against its fear aura.

In general, outsiders are pretty unpleasant. SR, DR, spell-like abilities out the wazoo. Most devils and demons can Greater Teleport at will... If it wasn't for the dedicated hacking of the rogue and fighter, we would have been fighting the bone devil all day.