PDA

View Full Version : Insane battle....



Silence
2008-07-01, 03:01 PM
Ok, I'm playing in a solo campaign where I'm a 5th level fighter, 4nd level rouge, and 4nd level assassin (although not evil; house rules based on the game Assassin's Creed) and the GM has a 13th level Cleric that has a good balance between melee combat and supportive simulcasting. He started a campaign where we accidentally unleash this really badass plague that we (also accidentally) vaccinated ourselves to. The plauge has differing effects on people. Some people die, some people are unnaffected, but still carry the plague, but worst of all is the large majority of people that transform into creatures. The main three seem to be one of these three.

Smallish dog sized creatures that are slow and very weak (cr 1/2) but transmit the plague upon biting.

Larger creatures that are like small horses that bite like hell (cr 2) that also transmit plague upon biting.

Overlords, big fleshy brains that control the plague and its transformations. From what I can tell, they can actually alter the effects of the plague. They are carried by other plague guys, and protected well, but otherwise can't defend themselves. Without these guys, the plague would go cannibalistic and cease to be a threat.

There are also some rarer nasty guys. These guys only pop up rarely, but could be a problem.

These guys who look like oversized people with wings (CR 4). They can't carry anything, as they're very weak fliers, but also transmit the plague.

These huge ram guys that just charge forward (CR 7?). I've seen one go in one side of a small stone cottage and come out the other without breaking the sweat. Their saliva transmits the plague, but they rarely bit people.

These vampire-ish guys who look almost exactly like a normal person, but have yellow eyes. They're a template that gives the base creature +2 or 3 cr. They act as spies and assassins, and are intelligent enough to think for themselves. They don't transmit the plague.

There are also specialty creatures that the overlords can think up. They're rare, but are nasty wild cards. Once, there was one made from the sewn together bodies of 10 or so people. He looked like a Balor, breathed fire, and had wings. Nasty guy. I'm sure the GM with throw a couple curve balls at us.


The world we were playing in is a series of islands controlled by different kingdoms. The plague acts more like an army than a conventional plague, and I've come to a final do-or-die defending standpoint.

OK, so here's what I've got.

A wall a mile wide. No way to get past it without flying.

Hundreds upon hundreds weaker soldiers.

150 wizards around 5th or so level each.

250 big nasty soldiers, maybe 8th level.

300 Clerics.

200 rouges.

That's at least what I'll have when the reinforcements arrive.

Three weeks to prepare.

Also, I have a king who is a 10th level fighter. I won major props from him a while back, so I'm a prince or something to that effect.

I have huge amounts or resources. Pretty much anything I want. I can also get any people I want. I've already ordered up every bard in the land for large cash reward, but I don't know how many will show. The church of St. Cuthbert, Pelor, and Hextor (It's ground 0 if this doesn't work; even CE clerics realize that there won't be anyone to brutally torture) are considering sending forces. The church of Heironeous is fighting their way over; I'm not sure if they'll make it. I don't know how they'll react to Hextor forces. This is a good time to mention that the GM has allowed paladins of all alignments.

What I'm up against
Millions. Freaking Million upon millions of baddies. We're talking LOTR on steroids. He's made it apparent that in a stand up fight, these guys would take us without losing 1/1000 of their force. Even worse, they're intelligent.

Furthermore, some demonic cult of some demon prince (We're not too sure on the details) believes that this is their calling, and are probably going to try to hurt us. Sabotage, full out attack, I don't know.



I have already set up the basic plan of defense. Countless traps. Magical traps, pits, oil, every trick in the textbook. I watched Return of the King three times and tried to copy everything from it. I read the final chapters in Eragon (book, not movie) and done that, too.



Help. Ideas. Suicide backup plans. Anything.

Every friday we meet, for three fridays, to set up for the big battle. Those will last 3-5 hours. Then, we're starting Wednesday morning, 9 o' clock, and starting the epic end.


Frankly, I doubt we'll survive.


*edit* I forgot to mention. We're playing 3.5

Blackfang108
2008-07-01, 03:11 PM
AOE effects. LOTS of AOE effects.

and oil. You're going to need the ANWAR reserves for this plan.

Some Gas masks wouldn't be remiss, either...

Fill the moat with oil. When they start crossing, light it up. anything with a CR of .5 shouldn't last past that. the CR 2s won't do too well, either.

Blast/shoot anything that tries flying over.

And send a small party to kill the leader.

Have the Clerics AOE what they can, in shifts. Any that run out of spells, shunt to the barracks for a rest to replenish their spells, making sure you can rouse them if the walls get overrun and you need speedbumps in the city.

Without an accurate map, I can't do any better than this.

Adumbration
2008-07-01, 03:20 PM
If you really have a lot of extra gold, and you have Draconomicon, and your DM is lenient enough to let you get it, there's one item I can recommend you: Platform of Healing. Page 85, on Lairwards: any injured creatures placed on this platform receive the benefits of a Heal spell. No limits on how many times, it's a 10-foot-round platform.

Silence
2008-07-01, 03:23 PM
AOE effects. LOTS of AOE effects.

and oil. You're going to need the ANWAR reserves for this plan.

Some Gas masks wouldn't be remiss, either...

Fill the moat with oil. When they start crossing, light it up. anything with a CR of .5 shouldn't last past that. the CR 2s won't do too well, either.

Blast/shoot anything that tries flying over.

And send a small party to kill the leader.

Have the Clerics AOE what they can, in shifts. Any that run out of spells, shunt to the barracks for a rest to replenish their spells, making sure you can rouse them if the walls get overrun and you need speedbumps in the city.

Without an accurate map, I can't do any better than this.

There is no leader. There is a network of 30 INT brains that are heavily protected that control everything. There's one for every 50 others, but they can probably control 1000 others and be fine.

Oil only lasts so long. As I've said, after a while, the burnt corpses with smother the flame, or the oil will simply burn out.

Ever seen LOTR? Pretty much that map.

http://www.lordoftherings.net/legend/gallery/images/minastirith/image1.jpg That, except with a much larger first wall, and no city behind it. Also, screw the hill.

Blackfang108
2008-07-01, 03:33 PM
OK, screw backup plan A: kill the head.

Platform of healing looks like it'll help out a ton.

Try and swing as many as you can (at least 4), seeing as you can spread them out amongst the walls, maximizing the healing potential.

The oil should help a lot, especially if you have the ANWAR reserves.

*Fire goes out.*
*siphons pour more oil on top*
*fire is relit, feeding on the oil and the dead bodies below.*
repeat as long as possible.

also, do whatever you can to funnel their superior numbers.
300, anyone?
Dig ditches that would be easier to go around than through/over in a dotted pattern.

Pencil a small circle, this is your city, mark the gates and any other weak spots in the defense.

Draw a circle around that. create gaps BETWEEN the gates.

---GATE---GATE--
--------GAP----GAP---

Like that. make the gaps about 1/4 the width as the space between the gates.

Then, time permitting, make a bigger circle, and do the same thing, except stagger the gaps between the inner gaps and the gates.

Anything to keep them from just charging the gates with a ram head on.

Silence
2008-07-01, 03:43 PM
Good idea....

Hm, I wonder if I could use dominate on one of those overlords... The will save will be hard to overcome, but the effects would be smexy.

Blackfang108
2008-07-01, 03:52 PM
yeah.

also, if you have access to it: PSIONS.

Trust me.

Silence
2008-07-01, 03:54 PM
In our campaign Psions and pretty much anything Psyonic is very rare. I might be able to round up a few. Three max. Luckily, if I did, they would be high level. What do you suppose I do with them?

Adumbration
2008-07-01, 04:01 PM
Ectoplasmic shambler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ectoplasmicShambler.htm) is a great power for this, for one. Also many powers starting with the word 'Energy' are good, especially if you can augment them.

EDIT: Also, get a lot of wands for those rogues, especially stuff like Summon Monster. Maybe Magic Missile as well, Fireball, if you can afford it. Try to get some wizards too.

Another_Poet
2008-07-01, 04:20 PM
First of all, see how many of your Clerics are up for being retrained (and see what your DM will allow). I have seen feats or variant classes that allow clerics to turn demons, devils, animals, and aberrations instead of undead. If you can get a lot of clerics Turning Infected (or better, Rebuking Infected) instead of Undead that will help.

Second, get those evil clerics creating undead 24/7. If Heironeans don't like it tell them they can turn around and fight their way back home. You want a big necromantic army ringing the city. In fact, you probably shouldn't have any living creatures (humans, etc.) on the outer wall - undead presumably can't be infected by plague, so let them take the first wave.

Third, something an army used in one of my campaigns was a Cauldron of Resurrection. We didn't stat it out carefully, we just said a 15th+level cleric could sacrifice his own life to make one. Basically, for seven days it has unlimited resurrections. Any corpse put in before midnight on the seventh day would come out the next dawn alive. (And it's an extradimensional space so it doesn't get full.) Nothing like recycling troops.

Fourth, screw mass healing. What you need is mass remove disease-ing. Or whatever spell is needed to cure plaue victims (I assume there is an incubation period during which they can be cured).

Fifth, how do dragons feel about this plague? Do they want the world to end? If not, recruit. Recruit recruit recruit!

Sixth, suicide pills or suicide spells. Every person on the field should be enchanted such that, if they are infected (past the incubation period) they die instead of joining the enemy. This could cost a lot, but then again, it could be a simple 0-level spell with a 24 hour duration or something. Depends on your DM.

If the enemy is coming from a single direction, have your escape route planned. Remember that backing up continuously and leading the enemy through mountain passes and swamps is a better tactic than geting surrounded. On the other hand, it sounds like your DM is seting up for one great finale and may not allow this.

Another spell worth innovating would be a "detect plague brain" spell. Something that can show you the locations of these enemy brains. It'd be nice if you could fly or teleport strike forces directly to those locations. Dominating them is indeed a fantastic idea.

Edited: I take that idea back. If they can each control 1000 but there are enough of them to control only 50 each, you'd have to kill 95% of them for it to make a difference. And you said they're heavily defended. This seems like a red herring from the DM - taking out the brain seems like a great idea, but is useless under these circumstances.

I have a creative use of Rope Trick for you too. Set up Rope Tricks outside the walls the night before the big attack. Load each one with your choice of heavy weights, dangerous monsters, or alchemical explosives or acids. Have a minion climb inside and pull up the rope, then jump out and get the heck away. The next day when the spell ends the stuff inside will rain down on the enemy troops.

Don't underestimate the power of sappers. Have some stoneshape spells in reserve in case the enemy tunnels.

Last, every use of a Wish or Miracle spell is worth it in your scenario. Anyone capable of casting these should be held back away from the front lines in case of emergencies.

Good luck!!

ap

Lapak
2008-07-01, 04:21 PM
If you have a long wall and essentially unlimited resources, then take a clue from Xykon and get those high-level priests of Hextor to work on Permanent Symbols of Insanity. Put up as many as you can, spaced evenly on the wall, facing out so the defenders can't see them. That will break up any attack by large numbers of low-level baddies as some try to flee, some stand in place, and others attack each other.

Silence
2008-07-01, 04:22 PM
Ectoplasmic shambler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/ectoplasmicShambler.htm) is a great power for this, for one. Also many powers starting with the word 'Energy' are good, especially if you can augment them.

EDIT: Also, get a lot of wands for those rogues, especially stuff like Summon Monster. Maybe Magic Missile as well, Fireball, if you can afford it. Try to get some wizards too.
The size is a little confusing on that spell "One ectoplasmic manifestation of a size equal to ten 10-ft. cubes (S)"

Eh?


A 10th level psion could dish out 5 point a round for 100 rounds...11 times a day...


So, that's 1100 rounds at five points per round.

5500 points of damage * how many creatures can fit in it at once.

I like.

*edit* woops, messed up. Give me a sec.

*Edit2* fixed

Enguhl
2008-07-01, 04:27 PM
Lots of death stones/ explode stones from stronghold builders guide would be good.
Anything with AoE or splash (as noted before).
Big rolling rocks from catapults?
As for psions, energy walls are always fun

Silence
2008-07-01, 04:52 PM
I got double ninja'd!



First of all, see how many of your Clerics are up for being retrained (and see what your DM will allow). I have seen feats or variant classes that allow clerics to turn demons, devils, animals, and aberrations instead of undead. If you can get a lot of clerics Turning Infected (or better, Rebuking Infected) instead of Undead that will help.

An interesting idea, but I'm not sure if the GM will roll with it. I'll check.




Second, get those evil clerics creating undead 24/7. If Heironeans don't like it tell them they can turn around and fight their way back home. You want a big necromantic army ringing the city. In fact, you probably shouldn't have any living creatures (humans, etc.) on the outer wall - undead presumably can't be infected by plague, so let them take the first wave.

Well, if you've ever delt with LG paladins, you know they can be extremely stuck up. Also, the Hextor boys won't be happy with them either, but their mindset seems a little more down-to-business.

Yea, I'm planning to try to use expendable troops (undead, summoned, dominated, ect) as a first line of defense. I don't know how undead will be effected by the plague. Normally it would be a clear no, but there is one quirk. When overlords or the assassin guys are created, they die, and then their seemingly dead bodies are transformed. I'll look into it.





Third, something an army used in one of my campaigns was a Cauldron of Resurrection. We didn't stat it out carefully, we just said a 15th+level cleric could sacrifice his own life to make one. Basically, for seven days it has unlimited resurrections. Any corpse put in before midnight on the seventh day would come out the next dawn alive. (And it's an extradimensional space so it doesn't get full.) Nothing like recycling troops.

Again, the GM might find this overpowered, but I'll see if it's possible.




Fourth, screw mass healing. What you need is mass remove disease-ing. Or whatever spell is needed to cure plaue victims (I assume there is an incubation period during which they can be cured).

I have experimented with using remove disease against the baddies, but once the plague has already transformed them, it has no effect. I will do that, though.




Fifth, how do dragons feel about this plague? Do they want the world to end? If not, recruit. Recruit recruit recruit!

I never really thought of that. I'll have as many parties of diplomats as possible sent out on first chance I get.




Sixth, suicide pills or suicide spells. Every person on the field should be enchanted such that, if they are infected (past the incubation period) they die instead of joining the enemy. This could cost a lot, but then again, it could be a simple 0-level spell with a 24 hour duration or something. Depends on your DM.

Well, the suicide spell idea isn't really an option, as it is a death spell. That means that it's high powered, and I want my high powered death spells used on the enemies, not me. I don't think my boys will like the idea of committing suicide via pill, too.

I didn't flesh this out enough earlier, but the plague takes days before it converts them. People would be dead by then. If push comes to shove, an allies dagger will do the job.




If the enemy is coming from a single direction, have your escape route planned. Remember that backing up continuously and leading the enemy through mountain passes and swamps is a better tactic than geting surrounded. On the other hand, it sounds like your DM is seting up for one great finale and may not allow this.

I've explored that idea, but it's clear that to have any chance, we're gonna have to bunker down and rough this one out.




Another spell worth innovating would be a "detect plague brain" spell. Something that can show you the locations of these enemy brains. It'd be nice if you could fly or teleport strike forces directly to those locations. Dominating them is indeed a fantastic idea.

We've already created spell that do almost any conceivable thing to the baddies. I'm waaaaaaay ahead of you here ; D




Edited: I take that idea back. If they can each control 1000 but there are enough of them to control only 50 each, you'd have to kill 95% of them for it to make a difference. And you said they're heavily defended. This seems like a red herring from the DM - taking out the brain seems like a great idea, but is useless under these circumstances.

Yea, the plague is smart in that way. It's an effective tactic against smaller forces, but against ones like this, they have it covered.



I have a creative use of Rope Trick for you too. Set up Rope Tricks outside the walls the night before the big attack. Load each one with your choice of heavy weights, dangerous monsters, or alchemical explosives or acids. Have a minion climb inside and pull up the rope, then jump out and get the heck away. The next day when the spell ends the stuff inside will rain down on the enemy troops.

Or we could just tie it. Magic isn't really needed.



Don't underestimate the power of sappers. Have some stoneshape spells in reserve in case the enemy tunnels.

Yea, we have that ready, more for the ram guys than potential tunnelers. They haven't shown any behavior involving digging, but the overlords are extremely intelligent....



Last, every use of a Wish or Miracle spell is worth it in your scenario. Anyone capable of casting these should be held back away from the front lines in case of emergencies.

Good luck!!

ap

Yea, I've ordered every spellcaster over 10th level to stay back. They're more useful that way.





Symbols of insanity wouldn't do much, considering that you're dealing with already insane creatures controlled by sane super-brains.



With the explode-o-stones, I've already got ya covered. I bought that book and implemented every trick there is.

*whew*

Maerok
2008-07-01, 05:21 PM
Make sure the enemy can't scry on you.
Look out for the big guy...
Illusion spells outside the gates to distract them or bring them to traps.
Investigate any sort of magical plant that could be planted to ensnare approaching enemies.
Look out for ramps over your walls made from the corpses of both sides.
Portable hole + Bag of holding bombs?
Uncover a sphere of annihilation!
Reusable Chain Lightning traps and spell turrets may be very useful.
Cloudkill, Solid Fog, Prismatic Wall.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 05:24 PM
What you need is to use the Locate City bomb. 'port in, nuke their army with it while they're on a relatively flat plain, 'port out.

Silence
2008-07-01, 05:30 PM
There's no way to nuke their forces with one bomb. Hell, a modern-day nuke wouldn't even do that job. I've looked into any superweapon ideas...

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 05:35 PM
There's no way to nuke their forces with one bomb. Hell, a modern-day nuke wouldn't even do that job. I've looked into any superweapon ideas...

Have you seen the radius for Locate City?

Silence
2008-07-01, 05:41 PM
Have you seen the radius for Locate City?

Link plz.

Message too short.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 05:48 PM
Well, it's 10 miles per caster level.

Here's a link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212)

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69981) is also relevant to your interests.

Silence
2008-07-01, 06:02 PM
Nice thread....

Although that spell is cheap. GM won't allow it.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 06:10 PM
Nice thread....

Although that spell is cheap. GM won't allow it.

Well, the second thread should still be helpful. Things like Control Weather can really mess up an army.

wadledo
2008-07-01, 06:43 PM
You said something about islands?
If they have to travel over water, aquatic *player race of your choosing* and Triton's.

Never forget the usefulness of caltrops.
Spread 'em out before the baddies get there, you slow 'em down to half speed for a little bit at least.

In the same vein, mine the hell out of the surrounding areas before hand.
Symbols of *blank*, booby traps, poisoning everything, etc.

Have you set up lots of war machines on the walls that non-spellcasters and level *worthless* fighters can use?
Have you set up a way of dealing with your enemies war machines?

I see you didn't talk to the dragons.
Have you talked to the Goblins, Bugbears, Gnolls, Giants, Ogres, Orcs, Fey, Trolls, and Aberrations?
Evil doesn't mean they want to die.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 06:53 PM
I reiterate any and all means of controlling the weather. More armies and navies have been smashed by bad weather than you'd expect (disease is another biggie, but here it doesn't seem as helpful). Send envoys to any Druid strongholds; it's doubtful that they like this army any more than you do--and nobody can control the weather quite as well as a Druid. Dropping a few tornadoes into the center of that army should do wonders, for instance.

wadledo
2008-07-01, 07:05 PM
That is very powerful.
Also, I have an idea that builds off my last post.
Follow these steps:
1. Go through the monster manuals.
2. Find every creature with 3+ Int.
3a. If it is not Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, send somebody to talk to them.
3b. if it is Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, send either a magical message or somebody who you can afford to lose.
3b1. If they have massive magical powers and tend to be exceedingly parannoyed, send the physical envoy along with a giant sign that says "This is totally a trap", and the reverse saying "This is not a trap", along with instructions that the sign should be rotated every 30 seconds.
They will be so intelligent that this will cause them to be stunned long enough that the messenger should be able to recite his message.

Silence
2008-07-01, 07:20 PM
3b1. If they have massive magical powers and tend to be exceedingly parannoyed, send the physical envoy along with a giant sign that says "This is totally a trap", and the reverse saying "This is not a trap", along with instructions that the sign should be rotated every 30 seconds.
They will be so intelligent that this will cause them to be stunned long enough that the messenger should be able to recite his message.

Hahahahahaha! Win.



Yea, I'll send out as many diplomacy parties as possible.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 07:43 PM
Escape seems like a good idea :P

Portal to safety, or carving a tunnel under the city at all possible?


Failing that, you'll want to exert a fair amount of control over the battlefield. Try and make them go through long, hazardous mazes filled with implements of death.


Mind you, that only works if you have time to set things up. You might consider leaving a gap open for the fliers so that they can be isolated and destroyed. Be sure to have a way for your archers to escape.

Ideally, you would have access to wall of stone and could build your fortifications with it. But that doesn't seem terribly likely.

If you could get some massive round objects, and roll them into the crowds maybe it could slaughter loads of them. Cover it in oil and set it on fire for safe measure.


I went over the spell lists a bit, and while there seems to be some helpful stuff, there doesn't seem to be stuff helpful enough. If you could grease everything that would be wonderful, but it doesn't last long enough, or have an area large enough.

SIlent Image could be useful for deception. Create some illusionary forces that are getting slaughtered by illusionary defenders. That could buy some good time for killing a few of them. There could be some more effective uses too, such as covering holes from which you can position archers, and spearmen (and wizards possibly, but you're going to want to use them mostly for control spells. Though this does seem to be a situation in which fireball is of great help)


Spiked pitfalls would help, but you need to kill loads of people. Use traps that can reset themselves, and can keep killing. I envision a thing where a zombie steps onto a pit trap, falls in, and lowers a floor plating. It's then killed by something (massive blade cuts it's head off? smashed by something? spikes impale it, then retract so it doesn't get stuck?) And then the platform springs back up sending the zombie flying back, so a new one can enter. Think along those lines.

The masses of corpses may well interfere with traps. So keep that in mind when designing them. As well as for when designing choke points. Slope the area leading up to fortifications, and cover them in grease so they keep sliding down them. Fling the corpses away. Or incinerate them (make sure you've got a good fuel supply, or you cheat with magic flames)


Get some catapults which launch stuff that's on fire. Especially if you can make them split in the air, setting lots of stuff on fire at once.


Your maze of death could have tunnels at the sides, and openings from which your minions can stab zombies.


But really, the main goal is to come up with ways that you can kill lots, and lots, and LOTS of zombies.


Added bonus if your maze of death can also be used as an escape route. There might have been too many Zombies to get away at first, but if you've slaughtered enough, maybe the tunnel can lead to safety. Keep it hidden well so none of the intelligent undead figure it out ^_^

Tehnar
2008-07-01, 07:51 PM
One word: elementals. Presumably immune to disease, and have enough hp and DR to last a long time. Air and storm elementals being the best. Storm elementals can even heal each other.

Or if you have a artifact at hand, the simples solution is apocalypse from the sky from BoVD. It should wipe out 90% of the army.

D_Lord
2008-07-01, 08:04 PM
Just one sphere of annihilation could do it if you got lots of the 10 level casters controlling it together. And lots of spells to slow down the enemy or make the sphere go faster. Got that and you can get rid of anything.

Silence
2008-07-01, 08:09 PM
Escape seems like a good idea :P

Portal to safety, or carving a tunnel under the city at all possible?
Escape is not an option.





Failing that, you'll want to exert a fair amount of control over the battlefield. Try and make them go through long, hazardous mazes filled with implements of death.
Yea, I have miles upon miles of traps. It's really a great location. We've got a chokepoint five miles long.






Mind you, that only works if you have time to set things up. You might consider leaving a gap open for the fliers so that they can be isolated and destroyed. Be sure to have a way for your archers to escape.

They won't play the flier card right off the bat. Remember, the entire force is micromanaged by INT30 guys. Besides, if I could keep a gap like that, this would be easy.




Ideally, you would have access to wall of stone and could build your fortifications with it. But that doesn't seem terribly likely.

I'm way ahead of you. I'm using a lot of spells to craft stuff.




If you could get some massive round objects, and roll them into the crowds maybe it could slaughter loads of them. Cover it in oil and set it on fire for safe measure.

Again, way ahead of you. I have pretty much every conventional trap known to man covered.



I went over the spell lists a bit, and while there seems to be some helpful stuff, there doesn't seem to be stuff helpful enough. If you could grease everything that would be wonderful, but it doesn't last long enough, or have an area large enough.

Grease? I don't think it would help...




SIlent Image could be useful for deception. Create some illusionary forces that are getting slaughtered by illusionary defenders. That could buy some good time for killing a few of them. There could be some more effective uses too, such as covering holes from which you can position archers, and spearmen (and wizards possibly, but you're going to want to use them mostly for control spells. Though this does seem to be a situation in which fireball is of great help)

Good idea, but the will save is going to be impossible to get past.



Spiked pitfalls would help, but you need to kill loads of people. Use traps that can reset themselves, and can keep killing. I envision a thing where a zombie steps onto a pit trap, falls in, and lowers a floor plating. It's then killed by something (massive blade cuts it's head off? smashed by something? spikes impale it, then retract so it doesn't get stuck?) And then the platform springs back up sending the zombie flying back, so a new one can enter. Think along those lines.



The problem is the sheer masses. I need traps that don't kill hundreds. They kill thousands....




The masses of corpses may well interfere with traps. So keep that in mind when designing them. As well as for when designing choke points. Slope the area leading up to fortifications, and cover them in grease so they keep sliding down them. Fling the corpses away. Or incinerate them (make sure you've got a good fuel supply, or you cheat with magic flames)
Make them get to me faster? That's their strategy already.





Get some catapults which launch stuff that's on fire. Especially if you can make them split in the air, setting lots of stuff on fire at once.
Again, way ahead of you.




Your maze of death could have tunnels at the sides, and openings from which your minions can stab zombies.
For the record, they're not zombies. I'll work on the tunnel idea.




But really, the main goal is to come up with ways that you can kill lots, and lots, and LOTS of zombies.
Yup.




Added bonus if your maze of death can also be used as an escape route. There might have been too many Zombies to get away at first, but if you've slaughtered enough, maybe the tunnel can lead to safety. Keep it hidden well so none of the intelligent undead figure it out ^_^
Again, escape is not an option. There isn't really a place I'd rather be than this place. We have to fight, otherwise it's ground 0.

Chronos
2008-07-01, 08:31 PM
Quoth Maerok:
Illusion spells outside the gates to distract them or bring them to traps.This bears looking into further... From what you're saying, the rank-and-file infected troops don't have any mind of their own, and mindless creatures don't receive disbelief saves vs. illusions. Creatures with minds, like the overlords, do, but only if they interact with it. Question: If an overlord way back in the rear is controlling mindless troops on the front line who are interacting with an illusion, does that count as the overlord interacting with the illusion? If not, then your standard-issue pit-trap-with-illusionary-floor will be hugely effective. If nothing else, it might force the enemy to send a few of the intelligent types to the front to scout, where they'd be vulnerable.

Also, be careful of any dragons or other powerful allies you recruit. The enemy knows about them, too, and even a dragon rolls a natural 1 occasionally. It'd be well worth the sacrifice of a few hundred of the lesser plague-types to convert a single dragon. Make sure that your diplomatic parties have some means of recognizing whether the critter they're talking to is infected.

Silence
2008-07-01, 08:36 PM
The plague can't convert anything not humaniod. It can slowly kill them, but not convert. The overlords are completely controlling their minions, as if the minion's mind was replaced with their own. Illusionary magic fails....

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 09:22 PM
I actually meant slant AWAY from your fortifications. It would involve some digging, but the idea is to make them climb to get to your emplacement. They climb up, then fall back down. And possibly into doom.

Grug
2008-07-01, 09:26 PM
Fire, and lots of it.

Assuming the Zombies are dumb, they will likely cluster together to get through whatever chokehold you have. I'm pretty sure that fire spreads, and any fullround action the zombies take is another round to slow them down.

For an extra special combo: Hallucinatory Terrain to make the chasm look much smaller. Several Disintegrate traps, for infinite firing and none of the mess. Finally, a Wind Wall spell should help slow the zombies down, plus blow away all the leftover dust.

EDIT: Heck, wind wall is especially helpful for repelling both projectiles and fliers.

Try using the Gate spell, if you have it. Gate to plane of Fire or Air will elminate just about any enemy that enters it. Plane of water will flood. Use planar messenger, and then open a gate to Asgard or Acheron and summon the boundless armies.

Swordguy
2008-07-01, 09:28 PM
There's no way to nuke their forces with one bomb. Hell, a modern-day nuke wouldn't even do that job. I've looked into any superweapon ideas...

You've looked at superweapons? Check out This Superweapon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2010735#post2010735).

Scale it back to a 10th level caster, and you're still in the quadrillions of damage, with a several-dozen-mile blast radius. Just find a country you don't like, lure them there, and guarantee a True Resurrection for the guy that casts this.

Roog
2008-07-01, 09:32 PM
Possible Ideas:

Fight spawn with spawn - send in some shadows.

Fight disease with disease - Deathsong or Life Blindness (from BoVD) may work.

Use the Locate City bomb technique with a higher level spell (eg. Blizzard from Frostburn).

Create Automatic Reset Traps of AoE spells (which have a search DC > 20).

Silence
2008-07-01, 09:53 PM
For the last time, I'm not using any cheap quadrillion locate city nuke spell.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 09:53 PM
Use the Locate City bomb technique with a higher level spell (eg. Blizzard from Frostburn).

No, no, no. The whole reason the Locate City bomb works is the 10 mile/caster level radius. The low-level spell slot is a good thing. Plus, Silence already said it wouldn't be allowed.

Most of the suggestions here are too small scale. The best things to do are either MASSIVE army-killing spells (I've mentioned several--the best seems to be Control Weather--and linked to a thread with more), or ways to make your army hyper-efficient. For example, if each of the defenders at Helm's Deep (500 total, IIRC) had been able to kill at least 20 orcs before he died, the 10,000 orcs would have been beaten.

Traps that kill enemies by ones and twos and dozens aren't the way to go against the kind of numbers you're facing. Either find ways to wipe large chunks of their army out, or ensure each of your troops is unto a tiny demigod of destruction. (Invisible? :smallamused:) Solid Fogs over the battlefield to slow your enemies to a halt, while your buffed men pump arrows into them like Gatling guns, is a way to do the latter method.

As for you--you're a sneaky fellow, you should eliminate their biggest, baddest fellows, and as many higher controllers as possible. Be as stealthy as possible and don't take stupid risks. Hide, find next target, Death Attack, rinse, repeat.

Silence
2008-07-01, 10:00 PM
Fantastic points...

The thing is, 10,000 orcs from LOTR would sh-t themselves and cry for their momas if they saw these guys. Millions. Millions....

The macro-spell ideas seems like the best option. I'm looking for divine backup, too. I'm pretty sure that a Solar wouldn't be very happy about the total eradication of a sentient, good, race by evil creatures. Hell, I might get a god to nuke the place.

Roog
2008-07-01, 10:13 PM
No, no, no. The whole reason the Locate City bomb works is the 10 mile/caster level radius. The low-level spell slot is a good thing. Plus, Silence already said it wouldn't be allowed.

Silence said...

For the last time, I'm not using any cheap quadrillion locate city nuke spell.
The sugestion was to make it a more expensive bomb, if the problem was that the spell was too cheap. If the whole convert spell to bomb idea is too cheap, then thats fine - you wouldn't want to spoil the setup by using tactics that are too cheap.


The whole set up looks like there may be more vulnerable lines of control than you have seen so far. You have Overlord (tactical) controllers, semi-unique specialty creatures, and a demon prince somewhere in the background. It may be worth investiagting whether the Overlords have another layer of control that commands them.

Roog
2008-07-01, 10:16 PM
The thing is, 10,000 orcs from LOTR would sh-t themselves and cry for their momas if they saw these guys. Millions. Millions....

Are they alive? What are they eating?

Could you just hold them off until they starve?

Rogue 7
2008-07-01, 10:21 PM
One thing you're going to have to watch out for, if there are as many zombies as you say, is what the death knight pulled at Azure City- piles upon piles of dead clogging things up. I don't know how to deal with that off the top of my head.

Now, I've had an idea with regards to the boiling oil- most likely you've got standard cauldrons set up, correct? Here's an idea. Have several very large containers filled with them, with a pipe running down to an outlet in the wall. With a valve, when you open it, pressure will force the oil out onto the enemy, and if you've got a torch at the mouth, boom. Instant flamethrower. A few grunts hand-working pumps should be able to keep a constant flow if you've got the entire Middle East worth of oil there, so you'll have giant flamethrowers on demand.

Silence
2008-07-01, 10:40 PM
One thing you're going to have to watch out for, if there are as many zombies as you say, is what the death knight pulled at Azure City- piles upon piles of dead clogging things up. I don't know how to deal with that off the top of my head.

Now, I've had an idea with regards to the boiling oil- most likely you've got standard cauldrons set up, correct? Here's an idea. Have several very large containers filled with them, with a pipe running down to an outlet in the wall. With a valve, when you open it, pressure will force the oil out onto the enemy, and if you've got a torch at the mouth, boom. Instant flamethrower. A few grunts hand-working pumps should be able to keep a constant flow if you've got the entire Middle East worth of oil there, so you'll have giant flamethrowers on demand.

Nice one. I like.

To answer your questions, these guys eat meat. Any kind. Mostly their victims. We can't hold out, because that's what we're doing already.

There is noone higher than the overlords. This isn't a demonic evil plan, it's just nature doing its job. No BBEG, although the demon cult might have their own BBEG.

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 10:41 PM
I don't care how many guys they have, a level 13 Cleric/Druid (ideally)/Sorcerer/Wizard or two should be able to handle it.


Control Weather
Transmutation
Level: Air 7, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes; see text
Range: 2 miles
Area: 2-mile-radius circle, centered on you; see text
Duration: 4d12 hours; see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Season Possible Weather
Spring Tornado, thunderstorm, sleet storm, or hot weather
Summer Torrential rain, heat wave, or hailstorm
Autumn Hot or cold weather, fog, or sleet
Winter Frigid cold, blizzard, or thaw
Late winter Hurricane-force winds or early spring (coastal area)
You change the weather in the local area. It takes 10 minutes to cast the spell and an additional 10 minutes for the effects to manifest. You can call forth weather appropriate to the climate and season of the area you are in.

You control the general tendencies of the weather, such as the direction and intensity of the wind. You cannot control specific applications of the weather—where lightning strikes, for example, or the exact path of a tornado. When you select a certain weather condition to occur, the weather assumes that condition 10 minutes later (changing gradually, not abruptly). The weather continues as you left it for the duration, or until you use a standard action to designate a new kind of weather (which fully manifests itself 10 minutes later). Contradictory conditions are not possible simultaneously.

Control weather can do away with atmospheric phenomena (naturally occurring or otherwise) as well as create them.

A druid casting this spell doubles the duration and affects a circle with a 3-mile radius.


Control Winds
Transmutation [Air]
Level: Air 5, Drd 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 40 ft./level
Area: 40 ft./level radius cylinder 40 ft. high
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: No

You alter wind force in the area surrounding you. You can make the wind blow in a certain direction or manner, increase its strength, or decrease its strength. The new wind direction and strength persist until the spell ends or until you choose to alter your handiwork, which requires concentration. You may create an “eye” of calm air up to 80 feet in diameter at the center of the area if you so desire, and you may choose to limit the area to any cylindrical area less than your full limit.

Wind Direction
You may choose one of four basic wind patterns to function over the spell’s area.

A downdraft blows from the center outward in equal strength in all directions.
An updraft blows from the outer edges in toward the center in equal strength from all directions, veering upward before impinging on the eye in the center.
A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion.
A blast simply causes the winds to blow in one direction across the entire area from one side to the other.
Wind Strength
For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level. Each round on your turn, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect of being in the windy area.

Strong winds (21+ mph) make sailing difficult.

A severe wind (31+ mph) causes minor ship and building damage.

A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships.

Hurricane force winds (75+ mph) destroy wooden buildings, sometimes uproot even large trees, and cause most ships to founder.

A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.

And there's all number of outsiders you can summon. Heck, if you could get a Pit Fiend fighting for you, it could put a really good dent in these guys, even if you'd have to deal with it after the battle.

Between clerics and a week of prep time, that's a lot of extra stone walls you have set up.


One thing you're going to have to watch out for, if there are as many zombies as you say, is what the death knight pulled at Azure City- piles upon piles of dead clogging things up. I don't know how to deal with that off the top of my head.

Now, I've had an idea with regards to the boiling oil- most likely you've got standard cauldrons set up, correct? Here's an idea. Have several very large containers filled with them, with a pipe running down to an outlet in the wall. With a valve, when you open it, pressure will force the oil out onto the enemy, and if you've got a torch at the mouth, boom. Instant flamethrower. A few grunts hand-working pumps should be able to keep a constant flow if you've got the entire Middle East worth of oil there, so you'll have giant flamethrowers on demand.

Don't let them pile up right next to your walls? They had this same problem in the movie Starship Troopers, when the idiots shot the bugs right next to the walls instead of the ones a little ways out. (Not that it would have helped anyways.)

As for possible improving upon the pipe idea: don't have it shoot out of the wall; lay pipe under the wall and have the opening poking out a little bit off, with the opening shaped so that it will shoot out in a two lines/in a disc around the opening. However, it seems like a lot of effort that might be better used elsewhere.

Highwarlord
2008-07-01, 10:48 PM
You have clerics. Blade Barrier in 3rd ed was abusive as anything, not sure if it's as crazy good in 3.5 but it might be worth a shot.

Roog
2008-07-01, 10:52 PM
To answer your questions, these guys eat meat. Any kind. Mostly their victims. We can't hold out, because that's what we're doing already.

So where are they getting the food they need now? They are three weeks away, where does three weeks of food for millions of creatures come from?

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-01, 10:59 PM
I like this line of thinking. Maybe they can be tricked into eating each other?

Chronicled
2008-07-01, 11:08 PM
I read the final chapters in Eragon (book, not movie) and done that, too.

This is a less than stellar idea. Paolini is renowned for being ignorant about all things medieval.

If you want another movie with decent ideas, try Braveheart. Specifically, the part where they prep the enemy side of the battlefield with pitch all over the ground, and lit it up with some fire arrows once the enemy had moved on top of it.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-07-01, 11:23 PM
I think I would go with kamikaze paladins. If the brains are a creation of the disease, and they're going to keep fliers in reserve, then just tie some balloons around paladins, float em over to the brains, and drop em for removing the disease. Not only is this fun, but you also cure any moral dilemmas your forces may have had for killing people afflicted with the disease.

Or, on a more serious note, collapse the choke point on them. Mages be good with their earth moving spells. You kill a bunch and earn time for more preparations.

Alleine
2008-07-02, 12:14 AM
Have you ever heard of the movie Serenity? If not, I suggest you go watch it and focus your attention on River Tam. Attempt to purchase her services for the upcoming battle. Laugh as the millions of enemies aren't enough to subdue her.

Chronicled
2008-07-02, 12:31 AM
Have you ever heard of the movie Serenity? If not, I suggest you go watch it and focus your attention on River Tam. Attempt to purchase her services for the upcoming battle. Laugh as the millions of enemies aren't enough to subdue her.

I do believe this gentleman has won the thread.

kjones
2008-07-02, 01:06 AM
I second the suggestion to cut off supplies. If they're alive, they have to eat, and millions of people eat a *lot*. Note: This is among the reasons why historical armies did not number in the millions.

CarpeGuitarrem
2008-07-02, 01:45 AM
Have you ever heard of the movie Serenity? If not, I suggest you go watch it and focus your attention on River Tam. Attempt to purchase her services for the upcoming battle. Laugh as the millions of enemies aren't enough to subdue her.
Truer words have never been spoken.

Epic. Gorram. Win.

Shiny. :smallbiggrin:

Kotuku
2008-07-02, 02:07 AM
Anything that influences all of the opposing army in even a small way will make a huge difference for you here. I was going to suggest the Braveheart idea of laying the entire field with pitch, but someone else beat me to it. Beyond that, I think your best bet is with the druids. If you have a large enough number, you can just have the entire landscape fight on your side. Get the field of battle to turn into choking vines and stop half the army flat while you pump them full of arrows or let your spells and traps do their work. Also, recruiting a vanguard of dumb evil monsters to harass the enemy might be a good idea. It doesn't matter how much you have to lie to them to do it, if you could get the Goblinoids and Giants to realize the threat, they would certainly muster a sizeable force. Also, Dragons would be fantastic here. How about this one: A shallow moat dug 200 feet away from the first wall (within bowshot; also, the moat shouldn't be a problem with all of the spellcasters you have to help you move earth and shape stone). At the bottom of the moat, however, you have portals opening up to other planes, say, portals 2 miles in the air, pointing straight down. I see no reason why it wouldn't work. With millions of enemies, it's not like they can just stop walking and stand around while all of your traps are going off.

JeminiZero
2008-07-02, 02:18 AM
Well, I have a few ideas:

1) The best traps don't clog up. Put Teleport Circles in your choke point, and have the exit point somewhere 1000 miles back, and 10 miles up in the sky. Reverse Gravity also works, provided you can fling them high enough to garuntee they won't survive falling damage, and far enough so that even if they do, they won't be threat for a long while.

2) If they can't see invisible, then consider using Warlocks. You would ideally want one or more high level Warlocks flying around with improved invisibility (their own or from an item), spamming Utterdark cones, with some sort of contingency that teleports to safety. The energy drain should produces Wights. The Wights can energy drain their former comrades and produce more wights. Played right, the ensuing chain reaction can chew through a good proportion of their army, especially if you Desecrate the area before hand (so the wights are stronger). Unfortunately the wights are not under warlock control, so this works best if they are still some way off. This idea may also work with any generic flying invisible troops with wands of Enervation.

3) If you use undead troops, a Destructive Retribution Chicken bomber (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84444) can damage the enemy and heal your undead troops (scroll down to post #19).

Adumbration
2008-07-02, 02:24 AM
You should also get couple of Marshals or Dragon Shamans for the auras. That fast healing aura and the damage reduction one could really help here.

timbuck_hunter
2008-07-02, 02:25 AM
The most recent Narnia movie made a laughable/crazy trap of collapsing the ground. Dont think you have time for that.

Somewhere I read about a magic item (ring) that allowed you to ride inside of cubes and oozes. Do like in OOTS and fling summoned monsters on them. Oozes and cubes would cause quite a bit of confusion especially if in the middle of the army. You could potentially fire many of them from one catapult. However, how this can actually be accomplished... another story.

the main idea is to get summoned monsters in the middle of the army mid-battle for distraction and division of forces. They may get crushed but they'll give the needed time for regroup/win.

Adumbration
2008-07-02, 02:31 AM
This kinda reminds me of the SilverClawShift kython battle, except in bigger scale. Maybe someone could find the link?

Chronicled
2008-07-02, 02:37 AM
I just realized that if you plan to Gate in River Tam, your Charisma better be darned high, and hope that she's feeling curious enough to step through the portal. :smallwink: It does seem like your best bet, though. The scroll will be expensive, but one of your clerics should be able to manage the casting.


Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.

A gate has a front and a back. Creatures moving through the gate from the front are transported to the other plane; creatures moving through it from the back are not.

Planar Travel
As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire. Travelers need not join hands with you—anyone who chooses to step through the portal is transported. A gate cannot be opened to another point on the same plane; the spell works only for interplanar travel.

You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed.

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Note: When you use a calling spell such as gate to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it becomes a spell of that type.

XP Cost
1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function).


This kinda reminds me of the SilverClawShift kython battle, except in bigger scale. Maybe someone could find the link?

Straight from my favorites: Horror Campaign (previously Army of Commoners). (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59107)

Coke_Can64
2008-07-02, 02:40 AM
Hm, methinks that the situation is dire enough as to not worry about starving the enemy off, by the time the enemy hits hungry, the city would have been blasted into next week.

1:

If you have enough clerics to burn, build cover around 400ft away from the base and get a few clerics to cast Storm of Vengance up to 4th round.

DnDWiki source (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Storm_of_Vengeance)

Perhaps some meatshields (not too many, need to be expendable) to protect the clerics whilst they cast this?

2:

Inflict mass critical wounds (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Inflict_Critical_Wounds)... unless they're undead (which I think they're not, otherwise, Mass Cure them. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Cure_Critical_Wounds)

Only problems is it's lame-short range...

All these though, only effect a dozen or so... I guess "Mass" doesn't count for much here :smalltongue:

Unless I'm going around this the wrong way :smallredface:...

Lathund
2008-07-02, 08:01 AM
The minions are being mind-controlled, right? Is there any way to cut off this mind control?

Also, as a side note: try to Widen any AoE spells. Lightning bolt (if shot horizontally) hits more people than a fireball btw, because it has a larger area.

Ned the undead
2008-07-02, 08:42 AM
Have you ever heard of the movie Serenity? If not, I suggest you go watch it and focus your attention on River Tam. Attempt to purchase her services for the upcoming battle. Laugh as the millions of enemies aren't enough to subdue her.
*Cough*UmaThurman*Cough*

Malfunctioned
2008-07-02, 09:08 AM
Are the Brains controlling the others magically? If so try to get some Beholders, a lot of Beholders. Even if they're not affected by the Antimagic Cone the eye beams could mess them up a bit.

JMobius
2008-07-02, 09:34 AM
While they apparently have the winged-morph, in what quantity do they have them? If they're lacking really appreiciable flyer-power (at least on the scale we're talking here), that could be exploited.

While I'm loathe to mention them, if they exist or can exist in this setting, a fallback to airships might be prudent. It doesn't even necessarily have to be a retreat plan; after having as many of them impaled on your land defenses as possible, flight represents another field of battle, still on your terms, or at least more so than in a breached fortress.

Silence
2008-07-02, 10:36 AM
I don't have enough time to answer all the questions, but rest assured that I've taken your ideas.

I've looked into disrupting the connection between the overlords and the minions. They do it through psyonics, and our spellcasters haven't found a way to disrupt it yet. They're working on some experimental spells, though.

I honestly don't know how large their flier force is, but I expect at least a thousand.

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 12:19 PM
Hi Silence!

I'm still loving this thread. One thing I'm curious about is if you have an accurate tally of the enemy forces. So far you've said a few times "millions and millions" but people use that as an expression sometimes. Seriously, an island chain with medieval technology can produce more than two million infected soldiers? Even though many infected die instead of transforming, and some people are immune? I wonder if you have talked to your DM about this.

Hopefully, you should be allowed some rolls to see if your scouts can accurately estimate the numbers. "Millions and millions" is kind of useless, whereas 2,500,000 +/- 10,000 is good to know from a tactical point. (I suspect that if you talk it over with your DM the enemy numbers will be more like 100,000 - 500,000. Over a million just seems unbelievable.)

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is to say: don't get discouraged, and don't pass up any chance to squeeze out a few more enemy casualties. Even if there are 3 million enemies, and even if you only kill 10,000 the first day - that's still awesome if, at the end of the day, you've taken minimal casualties and the wall is standing.

You have a hefty list of suggestions now so instead of coming up with more variations I'll just add a concept I first saw in World War Z: resource to kill ratio. Many of the plans suggested here require high-level spell slots or lots of gold. Others require low-level slots but tons of them. For instance, covering the whole area with pitch - this has to be done the morning of the battle (because pitch hardens and becomes less burnable as it sits) but you have to cover an area big enough for a couple million enemies to stand on. That can't be done by hand in just an hour or two, so that's hundreds or thousands of low-level spell slots to coat the whole area.

My point is, focus on keeping your resources up. If you have a great trap that will kill 100,000 enemies but takes most of your resources for a day, it's probably better to kill only 20,000 enemies and stay strong. Int30 enemies are going to let you expend all your good stuff on their grunts before they unveil their secret weapon, so hold plenty in reserve.

Good luck!

ap

Silence
2008-07-02, 12:37 PM
Yea, I still don't have accurate numbers yet, as they're coming from many directions and converging at one point, but I'm working on it.

Alleine
2008-07-02, 01:35 PM
I do believe this gentleman has won the thread.

Yay! And whoa, I'm a gentleman:smallbiggrin:


*Cough*UmaThurman*Cough*

I never saw her in Kill Bill (or any other movie she may have killed things in) so I can't say whether or not she even holds a candle to River. However, I am of the opinion she does not.
But River beat up and entire bar with mostly just her fists, and killed a lot of Reavers, crazy scary people(I use the term loosely) who kill you in nasty ways that involve skinning you alive and.... other things, and she did that with a little bit of fists and a lotta bit of their own weapons.

On the flip side, Uma Thurman was really hot in The Producers. Hmm, do the infected still have all of their anatomy functioning? This could make battle awkward:smalltongue:

TempusCCK
2008-07-02, 01:35 PM
Mm, there's a spell in the spell compendium that creates a whirling cyclone of wind that rolls along the ground (horizontally, not vertically like a tornado) and bullrushes enemies quite a way.

Resetting traps of these along your walls? Until it gets destroyed it would keep enemies off of hte walls,a nd push their corpses back so you don't have the "Sir, we finally have enough corpses to serve as a ramp for your horse" issue.

I mean, combine this with other traps, various AoE effects, and the like and you've got a decent deal. Also... Gating in Solars (if you can swing it) would help. Solars are just badass. Planar Bindings for powerful clerics to get poswerful outsiders, and elementals, lots of elementals. Earth and Air being your best bet probably.

also, really really get that accurate count of numbers, because in the end, killing off the brains is still killing less than the whole army. And it just might be doable if their numbers are overestimated.

My 2 cents.

Silence
2008-07-02, 01:50 PM
That's a good one.... I'm thinking on bringing in a Solar by asking it rather than binding it....

Another_Poet
2008-07-02, 02:57 PM
also, really really get that accurate count of numbers, because in the end, killing off the brains is still killing less than the whole army. And it just might be doable if their numbers are overestimated.

My 2 cents.

Yeah but they're heavily guarded AND hidden AND likely to stay away from the front line. The amount of resources it would take to kill 20,000 brains may be way higher than what it would take to kill 1,000,000 grunts. And once you start losing high-level dudes in daring guerilla strikes your days are really numbered...

ap

Silence
2008-07-02, 04:29 PM
Yeah but they're heavily guarded AND hidden AND likely to stay away from the front line. The amount of resources it would take to kill 20,000 brains may be way higher than what it would take to kill 1,000,000 grunts. And once you start losing high-level dudes in daring guerilla strikes your days are really numbered...

ap

Very much true, unless I can go with the superweapon idea....

BRC
2008-07-02, 05:00 PM
Very much true, unless I can go with the superweapon idea....

First, get some pizza of +5 DM bribery

Now, either your DM is evil, or he's got a Deus in his Machina that he's going to pull out, but don't count on that.

Now, do you have the book Heroes of Battle, if so, use your nigh-limitless resources to get yourself some Starburst Heavy Trebuchets, I think each shot from one of those is like 14d6 in a 20ft radius or somthing (Starburst causes seige weapon shot to explode in midair, dealing it's damage over a radius instead of in one square). And if you can, get Necromantic seige weapons as well, each one animates any corpses near where it hits, if you keep flinging stones over the wall you can get some mindless zombies to mess things up for the enemy, don't go overboard with this though, you don't want to have a zombie apocolypse on your hands.


More ideas later

pendell
2008-07-02, 05:45 PM
Are you sure it's not time to play Find the Macguffin?

What I mean is, if I read the first post correctly, your adventuring party all by their lonesome managed to kick off a plague that generated tens of millions of plague creatures. It therefore stands to reason there's some "off-switch" that an adventuring party of your level could throw, turning the army off in an instant. An anti-plague, perhaps?

I mean, as a rule in fantasy when the bad guys outnumber you a zillion to one there's a ring to throw in the volcano, or trees to wake up, or a Green Gemstone Man to unite with his sister or whatever that instantly shuts the evil army down, kills the bad guy, and as a side effect makes the dungeon collapse. Happy end.

You *started* this mess, it stands to reason you should be able to *finish* it. From a dramatic standpoint, anyway.

So while you're preparing all these defenses against the Horde, I suggest you have a couple of people researching the plague to figure out a way for a daring, plucky band of heroes to infiltrate the battle station and steal the ring which they will throw into the portal which will cause the trees to wake up and Deus Ex Machina Uber Alles. I'll wager there is one.

Call me stupid, but it looks to me as if your DM has flat out told you that you are not going to win this battle if you fight it. That implies that you need to find some other way to stop the plague than fighting a battle.

Super cheesy thought -- I don't have access to the 3.5 spell list right now, but Time Travel is a 9th-level spell, isn't it? Is there a wizard in your world capable of casting it? Could he/she be bribed to do this thing?

If so, why not go back in time to before you started the quest that kicked the whole thing off, meet the dude in the tavern before your characters got there, kill him and burn the map? Then your characters never go on the quest, the plague never gets started in the first place, and life goes on as normal.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chronicled
2008-07-02, 08:57 PM
I never saw her in Kill Bill (or any other movie she may have killed things in) so I can't say whether or not she even holds a candle to River. However, I am of the opinion she does not.
But River beat up and entire bar with mostly just her fists, and killed a lot of Reavers, crazy scary people(I use the term loosely) who kill you in nasty ways that involve skinning you alive and.... other things, and she did that with a little bit of fists and a lotta bit of their own weapons.

On the flip side, Uma Thurman was really hot in The Producers. Hmm, do the infected still have all of their anatomy functioning? This could make battle awkward:smalltongue:

Here's the arguement for River Tam being better:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/action_movies.png (http://xkcd.com/311/)

:tongue:

timbuck_hunter
2008-07-03, 01:17 AM
pendell stated the worst of fantasy endings. Treus ex Machina. The trees come, we wins.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-03, 02:04 AM
I've looked into disrupting the connection between the overlords and the minions. They do it through psyonics, and our spellcasters haven't found a way to disrupt it yet. They're working on some experimental spells, though.


FYI, there's some rule that says that anything that affects spells affects Psionics, and vice versa. So concievably, a targeted Dispel Magic on the brains or the minions would disrupt the link.

JMobius
2008-07-03, 09:14 AM
FYI, there's some rule that says that anything that affects spells affects Psionics, and vice versa. So concievably, a targeted Dispel Magic on the brains or the minions would disrupt the link.

That's an optional rule. On something like the next page, there's rules for psionics being completely different.

Another_Poet
2008-07-03, 09:19 AM
I don't think Silence's DM has a mcguffin OR a deus up his sleeve.

The impression I got - Silence, correct me if I'm wrong - is that this is the campaign ending, and it's meant to be a tactical battle on a huge scale, and it's meant to be nearly impossible to win.

I just get the feeling that if they're taking three separate Friday evenings to set up the battle map, there is a chance that, you know, the battle is gonna happen.

Am I right?

Aside @ Pendell: if they go back in time to kill the informant and burn the map, it doesn't get rid of the plague source. Now some random group of nobodies will wander into the hidden dungeon accidentally and trigger the plague, maybe in the PCs' lifetime, maybe not. At least this way the PC's have a chance to get rid of it, although Time Travel would be a great Plan B if their fortress falls.

ap

Silence
2008-07-03, 09:29 AM
Yea, even if I found some crazy way to avoid the battle, the GM would laugh and say "No".

He's been setting up for far to long. I gotta get me a few of those starshot catapults...

Blackfang108
2008-07-03, 09:39 AM
One last thing I just thought of.

You'll need an Evil Wizard for this (I think).

Elder Evils has a day-long casting Armageddon style spell.

You could always use that as a back-up plan...

BRC
2008-07-03, 10:01 AM
Yea, even if I found some crazy way to avoid the battle, the GM would laugh and say "No".

He's been setting up for far to long. I gotta get me a few of those starshot catapults...
You can put Starburst on any seige weapon except rams, but if your firing from a fixed position you might as well go with heavy trebuchet's. Then go "on my order, unleash hell"

I forget the range on a heavy trebuchet, but it's very long. Also, you can load seige weapons with elemental shot too so they summon elementals where they land.

Heroes of Battle is going to be your best friend here.

Silence
2008-07-03, 10:07 AM
Also, you can load seige weapons with elemental shot too so they summon elementals where they land.

Such as titanium elementals, or chlorine.

DracoDei
2008-07-04, 03:40 PM
Good grief... I will have to think about this...
Don't know if this makes much sense to use in LARGE numbers... but here is what I had already in my head for "massive numbers of attacks" before reading this thread.

Repeater Light Crossbow + Repeater HAND Crossbow

I would argue the only reason the second one isn't listed in the PHB is that a weapon that is designed to be fired in one hand and fire multiple times before reloading, but needs two hands to recock is "obviously" stupid.

Which brings me to my next point... a simple enough enchantement that applies a balanced linear force (and no stronger than a STR 8 character can produce) between two points, for a very brief amount of time when a given condition is met, and can operate 6 times a round (sounds like a perfectly reasonable enchantment to put on a weapon for +1 enchantment equivalent, right? Required spell: Telekinesis)... The name of the Enchantment: Autococker.

Miniature Bag of Holding equivalents with a different physical format... namely magazines... do you have ANY IDEA how many crossbow bolts you can FIT in a Bag of Holding I???... so even assuming it is 1/5 that number....

So... +3 total enchantment equivalent for the weapon:
+1 Enchantment Bonus (because you need it before you can do anything else)
+1 Autococker
+1 Flaming, Frost, or Shock (so it will actually halfway decent damage... because the damage on these DOESN'T scale down with size, note that with the volumes of ammo you are going to be firing putting this on the weapon instead of the ammo pays itself back really quick... the ammo now doesn't even need to be masterwork, and since you are going to be shooting A LOT of bolts this is important for cost effectiveness)...


And of course the Feats for the wielder (Yes, this requires enough feats that you actually have a REASON to have fighters around...):
Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Hand Repeater Crossbow)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Light Repeater Crossbow)
Point Blank Shot
Two-Weapon Fighting
Rapid-Shot (Should give an extra shot per round with EACH Crossbow)...

Hey presto, 4 attacks a round each doing at least 1d6+1d3+1 damage out of a 3rd level fighter (No, DO I have the damage dice and character level right... see below)...

...And really that is all you need now that I think of it... if you need to save a feat and can afford to loose the range you can go to a pair of Repeater Hand Crossbows. To scale it up for a higher level wielder, throw in Improved Two Weapon Fighting, (Greater) Weapon Foci (Remember you are at -2 to hit for TWF and another -2 for Rapid-Shot... and Hand Crossbows don't exactly have a huge range increment either, so you have to save the low attack bonuses for the ones who are practically in your face, and hope the melee specialist you have paired with you can take care of the rest of the close ones), (Greater) Weapon Specializations (Good because the damage bonus on this ALSO doesn't scale with size).


Ok, but you can't retrain 10+ level fighters in that short a period of time... so who would ALREADY have some guys insane enough to have trained around this concept? Again I must point you to one of the more dissed PC options in D&D: Gnomes. Ever heard the term "Tinker Gnome"... yeah, you don't want the ones that are QUITE that insane (although the founder of the fighting style probably was a full-gonzo insane Tinker Gnome).

And then you go and gang a bunch of hopper-fed ballistae together mechanically for aiming purposes, and do the same thing, except without the extradimensional magazines (a level 1 commoner can keep the hopper full... maybe even for two at once) or the energy enchantment.

Anyway, I don't know how realistic this is to have in large numbers... but you should talk the GM into having at least one gnome (with a fancy semi-articulated peg-leg just because...) cackling maniacly as he unloads into the horde from atop the battlements.

It probably doesn't apply to your situation, but I have to give the final ingredients to the recipe that made these guys memorable as part of the historical past of my campaign setting... blink dog mounts, and saddles that would let them take their partners (remembering that since Blink Dogs are intelligent this is an equal partnership in terms of respect, if not NECESSARILY skill levels) with them when they Dimension Doored and Blinked. And of course Mounted Archery (and its pre-requisits) got involved as well... and YES, I need to turn this whole thing into a gnomish PrC some time...

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-04, 07:12 PM
What's needed is something that can kill lots of mooks, for cheap.

That was one of the reasons why I was suggested flinging something that sets a large amount of things on fire at once. Maybe a series of long metal shards covered in oil, set on fire, and flung from a tebuchet

Star burst projectiles are almost certainly very expensive. Even if you manage to kill 13 mooks with it, that's still not cost effective. In fact, it would probably make more sense to buy another 10,000 arrows.


How about hiring a giant, with returning rocks? (Or, returning metal balls). MANY rocks would be more cost effective, but storage becomes a problem. It might not be possible to have enough rocks. With returning things, they wouldn't run out.

A dragon would be pretty helpful too. Breath weapons would be great.

Warlocks would probably be of more use than wizards here. Especially with that they don't run out of ammo.

Silence
2008-07-04, 07:26 PM
OK, so I met up with the GM for our weekly check in. I put out the orders to contact monstrous allies and look especially for psions. I also dumped a few dozen more trap and weapon designs on him and told him pretty much everything that was brought up in this thread.

Pelor and Hextor forces have confirmed, still no word from St. C or Heronious.

It looks like I'll be able to get three lines of walls up by the end. The first line is going to be disposable creatures, undead, dominated, stuff like that. Line 2 will be the strongest one; most of my archers will be there. Line three will be my siege engines and magic users.

I'll deploy melee forces close in, near the wall, so that enemies take heat from both sword and bow.

DracoDei
2008-07-04, 07:38 PM
Wait... you are deploying major amounts of forces IN FRONT of the wall? Hit and run guys yes (in fact you should be hitting them with Control Weather starting as soon as you can POSSIBLY manage it preferably DAYS in advance). But the POINT of walls is that you put direct fire and melee guys on TOP of them, and indirect fire weapons (catapults and MAYBE ballistae and trebuchets) on top of and/or behind them...

... I will assume you phrased it badly...


...what did you think of the "Crossbows Akimbo" concept?

Silence
2008-07-04, 07:41 PM
Yea, we're gonna attack them as soon as we can, which will be micromanaged next friday.

Coke_Can64
2008-07-04, 07:50 PM
Good Luck. You're gonna need it. :smalltongue:

kleinfehn
2008-07-04, 08:00 PM
In WW2, the Russians came up with the idea of strapping bombs to dogs and sending them under tanks before detonating. Find some dogs, get some explosive runes, and watch the bodies fly.

Xuincherguixe
2008-07-04, 08:12 PM
As wonderfully evil as that sounds, I suspect it's unnecessary.

You could just fling rocks, or arrows or the likes with explosive runes on them.

Silence
2008-07-04, 08:25 PM
Yea, I have enough minor strategies like that. I can cast lightning bold and such all day, but what I really need are tornadoes and the such.

Fri
2008-07-04, 09:03 PM
In WW2, the Russians came up with the idea of strapping bombs to dogs and sending them under tanks before detonating. Find some dogs, get some explosive runes, and watch the bodies fly.

Sadly that failed, because by the way the Russian trained the dogs, the dogs were trained to run into THEIR OWN tanks.

they should've used captured german tanks for training...

Still, it's the best animal weapon after the allies' chicken mine (where they put chicken and chicken food on mine container to keep the mine warm in winter).

_Puppetmaster_
2008-07-04, 09:27 PM
Are they vulnerable to Holy water? if so make a few holy water blimps and crash 'em over the army. Also, if you are concetration-zombiefying-bombing them, keep the blimps for zombie mop-up.

EDIT: The 'Legion' set of spells from the Minis Handbook might help.

The mudslide spell (6th level druid/wizard) from Stormwrack will cover an 80ft diameter circle in 10ft deep mud.

@V: What about acid? Make blimps out of an acid resistant material. It is good if the acid will eat through the material just when it's over them.

or you could do oil-filled blimps and send a fireball at it when it's over them.

Also, here is a list of lighter than air liquids in the PHB:

Oil
Acid
Holy/Unholy Water
Alchemist's Fire

Silence
2008-07-04, 09:32 PM
They're no unholy, they're just nature.

Fizban
2008-07-05, 01:51 AM
Seriously, it's so true it requires repeating: Druids win war.

Control Weather: screws up everything, which favors the underdog (you). Slow them down with torrential rain and mud, blast them with hurricanes or tornadoes.

Control Winds: at 20th level, you have a circle over a quarter mile across, with continuous spinning tornado force winds. Tornado force winds will "blow away" anything of large size or smaller (huge if it's flying) without a DC 30 fort save. This then incurs 1d4x1d4 damage, or 2d6x2d6 if flying, all nonlethal. In addition to being blown around in circles, probably also up, and falling down. 10 min/level, easily extendable. You can also change what it does, say spin until all enemies are caught, then toss them up so they fall and die.

And finally, from the Spell Compendium: Shadow Landscape. What kind of terrain are you in? Hills? Going uphill takes 4 times as much movement. Mountains? Constant avalanches. Plains? Undergrowth entangles as the spell 50% of the time. And in ant terrain, you roll twice and take the worst result, 3 times for plains, which should get you those tornadoes from control weather easy.

None of these spells require much investment: control weather will likely last a day, shadow landscape is 1 day/level, and control winds should be 20 min/level.

And for my personal wall trap trick: Permanent Wall of Fire along the whole thing. Any CR 1-2 mook passing through is toast, and even standing within 20 feet of the wrong side will roast them over 2-3 turns. Bodies piling up won't be a problem, as they will be reduced to bones and ash within minutes, and the closer they are, the faster they'll burn.

If you can hand train your common soldiers (go read the horror campaign link, details can be found there), I would also recommend Warlocks. The three invocations I'd work with are: Eldritch Spear, Walk Unseen, and Summon Swarm. Eldritch Spear gives you infinite ammo 250' range (with no penalty) bows, and I'd say you could do "arrow volleys" with readied actions for AOE damage. Summon Swarm gives you continuous area damage that will mow down mooks, requiring only concentration. And Walk Unseen will hide swarmers while they concentrate, or let the ranged hide and retreat. You only get 1 at 1st, and 2 at 2nd, but it's much better than warrior 1. Dragon Shamans are also good for fast healing 1 whenever someone is below half hp.

And now, about your enemies: any ranged attacks? That matters a lot when defending a wall.

Edit: also, curse you whoever mentioned River Tam! I read that right before I went to work, and spent the next 8 hours obsessing over Firefly!

Talic
2008-07-05, 02:03 AM
1st, assuming you have siege enemies, you have controllers, you have aerial harassment, and you have rank and file.

1) Flight. Avoid all but the aerials. Good stuff.

2) anything explosivey. dropped from altitude, you can get good effect.

3) sniper effects. Fireballs and lightning bolts have insane range, and a level 10 caster can easily sit 800 feet above the enemy, well outside of conventional archery ranges.

4) target overlords. If their range of control is limited, and they must be carried, then sudden strikes against them could greatly harm the enemy army.

5) Expect curveballs. The above strategy completely nullifies 90% of the enemy army. It targets the weakest point of the enemy army. Thus, it will meet an aggressive counter.

Coke_Can64
2008-07-07, 01:30 AM
@^

I agree with all but #4, there are too many bosses to mooks in this case to work, #5 especially applies in this situation. This entire battle could be a rather messy form of "survival of the fittest" ya?

Talic
2008-07-07, 02:01 AM
Then the army has no weak point. You'll need masterful terrain control, resticting enemy engagements through choke points and defensive fortifications, well before the castle. Plan fall back routes, train in them.

Traps. Walls of iron, tipped from above. Collasping tunnels as retreat routes. Pit traps, armable after crossing. Rolling boulders. Make your retreat routes into something from an indiana jones movie.

Cuddly
2008-07-07, 02:04 AM
You need serious help. Gate things in. See if you can open a portal to the Heavens and get some help. Or the Hells. Or anywhere. A couple Solars or Pit Fiends would be seriously helpful. Try to get creatures with incorporeality. Total immunity from non-magic weapons. If you can get control of any wights, you can start building your own army that grows. The only problem is a potential undead apocalypse. At least all the clerics will be able to turn/rebuke the crap out of them.

Decanters of Endless Water. Endless Acid or Flammable Substance would be preferable, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Most AoE spells are too small to do anything important. You're going to be better off improving your guys/keeping them alive. Try to get it so they shoot at extremely far range. Maybe have your wizards using scrying or something to direct catapult and crossbow fire. Keep haste spells on all the time. Make sure you have good lines of communication- Rary's telepathic bond, polymorphed scouts, eyes in the air, underground, etc. Custom magic weapons to increase weapon distance. You don't want a pile of bodies in front of your wall. Actually, polymorphing a lot of your guys into big mean things could be really useful. I usually frown on polymorph abuse, but in this case, it's warranted.

Are these creatures immune/have strong saves to a lot of stuff? If they don't, there are a number of high level spells that could burn through an army. One of them, called darkfire or something, is a contagious level draining thing.

Arlion
2008-07-25, 05:55 PM
so.....what happened with the epic battle ¿?

Arakune
2008-07-25, 06:32 PM
Shadow steel golens! Shadow steel golens!

Shadow steel golens!

With each a torch with a permanent shadow-evoked contiunous flame.

Thank you, emperor Tippy.

Blanks
2008-07-25, 07:04 PM
Killing the bosses could be viable. Remember, he doesn't need to kill ALL the bosses, just the ones closest to the wall. Assuming they have a "range of command", the "zombies/diseased" will start attacking each other.

A thousand flyers is easily killed by dragons and mages, unless they are really really strong. After having taken out their airforce, do strafing runs against any brain that gets close enough to the wall to attack.

improved invis+fly+your choice of killing spell= one dead brain unless they are encased by zombies.

AgentPaper
2008-07-25, 08:06 PM
Decanters of Endless Water + Electric spells of any sort, but more poweful the better. Line the walls with the things if you can, or the second walls. First wall goes down, you fill the gap between the first and second with water and shock the whole damn thing every few minutes when it gets close to full. You should be able to reason your DM that a bunch of casters casting lightning bolt can fill the whole lake-type thing with electric shock, which should be plenty to kill the mooks.

arguskos
2008-07-25, 08:13 PM
If you're using the Epic Level Handbook, and can find one caster with a caster level of 20, then use Gate to summon a single Dream Larva. It has some auto-death aura thing that makes everything around it save or die, continuously. Also, it's a 40 HD critter, and can ream through bad guys till doomsday (or 20 rounds go by, whichever comes first).

If the DM doesn't allow that, then use Gate to summon an Effreti or Noble Djinni, and use their Wishes to get the best and most powerful allies you can.

Use Contact Other Plane to reach the gods, and beg them for avatars to aid you in battle. An army of multiple millions will probably take the avatars down after awhile, but they'll last long enough for you to munch most of the opposing army, bringing it down to more a manageable level (Helm's Deep scale, probably).

-argus

olelia
2008-07-25, 11:32 PM
Too small arguskos...if the dm is gonna allow you to summon a djinii just start wishing for candles of invocation. Or...if he did somehow have access to epic level spells he just wins with gate rape.

arguskos
2008-07-25, 11:35 PM
I'm assuming that, like all sane DM's, he's not allowing the Candle of Invocation trick. So instead, he wants critters that grant multiple wishes, so he can get the best allies he can.

Honestly though, as far as supernatural allies go, I think avatars of gods, and dream larvae are his best bets. The divine avatars especially, since they can do so much damage to the enemy forces before being overwhelmed.

-argus