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DiscipleofBob
2008-07-02, 05:29 PM
I for one, love 4th Edition, at least from a DM's point of view. I haven't gotten a chance to actually play in a 4th Edition game, so I can't give an opinion on the player's point of view.

I could go into a long list of reasons why I like DMing a 4th edition game as opposed to 3.5, but there are more than enough threads on that controversy and I'd just like to focus on one thing.

One recurring complaint I keep seeing revolves around monsters. Usually these revolve around "What if I want to use goblins above level 5?" or "Why are my options for level 1 monsters so limited?"

Now, this may just be me, but the solution to both of these problems seems very obvious and not nearly as convoluted as attempting something like this in 3.5 would be.

In 3.5, the solution to any of these problems would be to spend hours trying to give the monsters class levels or advancing the Hit Die, trying to figure out what to include, what to add, what not to add, what the ECL was, whether or not you could get rid of that Alertness feat for Power Attack, etc. It really was a nightmare planning for a single encounter, especially when you had to give those NPC's ridiculous equipment to make them a viable challenge, which the PC's could then loot and become even more ridiculously powerful.

Now, let's see what we have to do with these in 4th Edition. First, let's try to make an interesting level 1 encounter with goblins (because that's what our plot calls for). Now, the level 1 goblins involve the Goblin Cutter (Minion), the Goblin Warrior (Skirmisher), and the Goblin Blackblade (Lurker). We have minions, which can make up the bulk of the force, but they won't be an interesting encounter alone. We have the Warrior, who initially sounds like a good front-liner, but on closer inspection of his stats, he's much more adept at ranged attacks with his javelin. Heck, his backup weapon is reach as well. He's going to want to stay behind the front lines and play more of an artillery hit-and-run type role, especially when he gets better damage when he runs around rather than standing still. What about the Blackblade? If he's any good at his job, he'll be completely hidden at the start of combat. He also won't last long, even if a few Cutters are backing him up. The good news is that the goblin's racial power makes flanking and positioning a lot easier.

These three types of goblins alone? Won't cut it. The Blackblade(s) won't enter the battle until late and most PC's are going to be able to close the distance to shut down the Warrior(s) before they can get more damage in. Granted, this is a level 1 encounter, maybe you should go easy on the PC's while they get used to new rules and their new characters. But we can get around this.

You could try having the Warrior(s) standing behind a well-covered pit to trap any rushing defenders, or other obstacles in the goblins' favor, but more likely you'll just want some other types in there.

Reasonably, for a level 1 encounter, you could throw in level 2's, 3's, or even a level 4 if you're feeling particularly nasty. Let's see what that nets us:

We get the level 2 Goblin Sharpshooters, which make excellent snipers as they can miss and still remain hidden.

We get the level 3 Goblin Hexer which has some nasty side-effects and high damage. Just make sure you keep some minions or a couple brutes around to help it survive longer.

There's the level 3 Skullcleaver fills that needed Brute slot, but this may be pushing it for fresh characters, especially if you put more than one in an encounter. They have good damage, and even better when bloodied.

Finally, we have the Underboss, a level 4 Elite Controller Leader. Impressive hit points, but mediocre damage and only works well when a bunch of other goblins are backing him up.

Now, we could make several doozies of encounters with this. Particularly if we take advantage of terrain and such, which as a DM you should have goblins always do. Have the Sharpshooters find high places with concealment so they can pick off enemies from far away while the other goblins hide behind cover and ambush adventurers when they rush forward to pick off the Sharpshooters. Or use the Hexer's various curses and Vexing Cloud to blind your enemies, give your Lurkers combat advantage, and your minions concealment to increase their survivability.

We can also add some goblin pets to this: scorpions, dire rats, guard drakes, all work pretty well.

But let's add some more fun to this: How about some different options for Artillery? Well, let's take that Halfling or Kobold Slinger, change the name to Goblin Slinger, add the Goblin Tactics power, and voila! You have a level 1 goblin artillery! Kobolds already get something very, very similar to the Goblin Tactics power so you really only need to change the name. So now, instead of the (starts counting) 7 options for goblins in an encounter (plus whatever pets or other enemies you want to include), you now have the entire Kobold list, the entire Halfling list, and so much more. Since small vs medium size isn't nearly as much of a difference as before, you can throw in Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Humans, Elves, Orcs, whatever, and simply change the name and appearance and call them goblins. This works for pretty much everything and works very well. Just pick a monster stat block with the role and somewhat close to what you're looking for, add what you want, take away what you don't want, change the name and appearance and you have yourself a homebrewed encounter to keep your players guessing.

But let's address the other problem: Higher level goblins. Well, you could always just make goblins with class levels using the stats in the back of the monster manual, and even that's easier than in 3.5, but there's an easier solution: use the same principle as above.

Let's try... a level 10 encounter. What could possibly work...

Snaketongue Assassin, level 9 Lurker. The only thing that might be out-of-place is that Snakeform ability, but the Crowd Shield works perfectly. Remove the Snakeform ability and the Resist 10 poison, add Goblin Tactics and a few d6 damage during Combat Advantage and you have a valid level 9 goblin lurker. Heck, you could keep the Snakeform ability and simply give the goblin a really cool transformation type flavor.

Orc Warrior, level 9 minion, add Goblin Tactics, call it a day.

Quickling Runner, level 9 Skirmisher, the Fey Step could be reflavored or completely removed, your choice, but otherwise we have another near-perfect fit.

Foulspawn Berserker, level 9 Soldier, seems to be reaching, but take away the berserker aura and the crazy mental backlash and you have a valid Goblin berserker.

Sahuagin Baron, level 10 Elite Brute Leader, the Blood Aura and Blood Frenzy type stuff is more Sahuagin stuff so you could remove it, but it does fit the flavor of a berserker.

Other you could reflavor include the Dark Stalker (Level 10 Lurker), Oni Mage (Level 10 Elite Lurker), Dragonborn Gladiator (Level 10 Soldier), Minotaur Warrior (Level 10 Soldier). Those were just the obvious ones. Really you could take any statblock and rearrange it to your needs.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-02, 05:34 PM
Actually, most of the complaints I've seen about the 4E monsters are the exact opposite of these: "What do you mean you can fight Goblins above level 5" "Oh I suppose if you fight an Ancient Black Dragon at level 1, it becomes Level 1 too" and of course "So a commoner with a teaspoon can take out a Legion Devil in one hit, huh?"

DiscipleofBob
2008-07-02, 06:00 PM
I suppose it's a difference of what threads you see I guess.

The first complaint I would say... "Yes... Goblins can be strong too. Just because you're too genre-savvy to see goblins as anything but XP-fodder doesn't mean that goblin society doesn't have at least one guy who can kick you in your +1 butt of asking-for-it"

The second complaint... I'm not sure what that means or refers to...

As for the third complaint... "If that commoner can roll the natural 20 necessary with a teaspoon to reach the 22 AC (most likely 24 due to being next to another Legion Devil), then I say give him the kill, he deserves it. We shall sing the tales of Franky-the-Freakishly-Lucky and his tale of how he bravely slew one of the flunkies from hell right before nine of his buddies ripped him apart, and how we can only assume he had a split-second to contemplate just how awesome that moment was before he was slaughtered beyond recognition."

Archbear
2008-07-02, 06:17 PM
Check out DMG page 174, Customizing monsters. You can easily add or subtract levels (the book recommends no more than five levels) by doing the following:
For adding levels, increase attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 for every level you add. For every two levels, increase the damage it deals with its attacks by 1. Add extra hit points for each level depending on role (Lurkers & Artillery six points per level; Controllers, Skirmishers & Soldiers 8 pts per level; Brutes 10 pts per level).
For removing levels, do the opposite.

DiscipleofBob
2008-07-02, 06:19 PM
I remember that much, but doesn't the book also say that doing so only works for so many levels and after that you're better off getting a different monster?

SamTheCleric
2008-07-02, 06:23 PM
I remember that much, but doesn't the book also say that doing so only works for so many levels and after that you're better off getting a different monster?

Yes, they recommend not going over 5 above or below.... but that's a range of 11 levels (assuming you're working with something at least level 6)

DiscipleofBob
2008-07-02, 06:44 PM
Sounds good to me. I assume it's not balanced perfectly in all examples of applying this technique, but still a good start for getting monsters at different levels.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-07-02, 11:07 PM
I am also totally all about monster creation in the new edition. In addition to the stuff above, I like that it is really easy to take, say, a level 3 guard from any town and make them unique, to give the town a bit of flavor:

Delgak, The Steel Homeland: Guards who have taken the Oath of Steel have an encounter ability to roll a saving throw immediately when effected by a fear effect.

Sarkomand, City of Kings: Guards have made pacts with their devilish overlord, and so have an ability to generate a fire blast or teleport in a cloud of blackness or eldritch blast, or, or, or.

Bumpkinsville, Nowhere: Human guards have a weapon attack.

They could have the same stats block, but people are going to remember them for very different things. And yeah, palette swapping is one of my favorites.

What Dan_Hemmens was trying to say is people are having problems with hp and level abstraction (not him, from what I can tell, he wants to DM :-p). So they say they can kill a level 30 minion in one hit, but this isn't really the case, as a level 30 minion would have a lot more hp against a low level player.

It is a valid complaint, because (for example), if I want the player to fight a demon legionnaire as a boss, and then later encounter it as a minion, I have to homebrew the guy. Otherwise, this apparent 'army' of lackeys comes from nowhere. Still, with the guidelines you came up with earlier, it shouldn't be too hard to palette swap a lower level demon and change some things up. A member of the demon legion could be a bearded devil with an aura, instead of a beard. When the same demons return, you could mention that the PCs feel the pull of the same aura, but they are too strong for it (or that it accounts for part of the legion's +2 to AC when fighting near others). And suddenly you can do an encroaching danger campaign.

As a bonus, the PCs can now turn around and whomp on guys who used to give them trouble. A very rewarding time for them indeed. (Just make sure to have sufficient levels in between to make it seems reasonable.)

As for level 1 white dragons. I don't really like my PCs fighting a dragon unless it is the final battle of a tier. So they just won't. It takes but a simple wave of my magical DM wand, and I don't even have to break the rules to fix it. And my first 4e dragon battle is going to be a doozy. I can guarantee that.

DiscipleofBob
2008-07-03, 12:37 AM
I love the idea of subtle differences something as simple as city guard members. I'll be taking this in mind if my players end up getting too rowdy, especially as the country they're in follows the legends of six different legendary knights who founded it, each with different flavors and virtues.

Yea... trying to throw any minion by itself, heck, even 4 minions by themselves and trying to make it challenging is a pain, but that also goes against the concept of a minion. As for flavor, it really doesn't take much. Let's use one of those pesky Legion Devils as an example, specifically, the Grunt.

Now, we're going for the Legion Devil's flavor, but able to tackle a group by itself (or more likely in a scouting party of two or three.) You could use a completely different stat block, but a glance over the Legion Devil and only two things really need to be changed: Their HP and their weapon damage. Something called a Legion Devil will most likely fall into the Soldier category, though a Skirmisher or a Brute could also work to some degree. Let's take a look at that oh so wonderful glossary.

Ah, the Warforged Captain, level 6 Soldier Leader. Perfect. Slightly higher HP than normal, but if you're looking to have your PC's only fight a few of these, this is a good start. Just add the following to the Legion Devil's stat block: 72 HP, +11 v. AC, 2d4+5 HP. That weapon's a glaive with reach though, and maybe you just want a longsword or something different. No problem. You can change the damage if you want to for "realism" purposes, but I'd just stay with it how it is. Your players don't need to know the damage dice is off.

If this newly HBed Legion Devil is with other Legion Devil minions or other mooks, you can transfer that Aura of Command and various leader-based powers over from the warforged.

If you want the Legion Devil to play more of a Brute role, just take the Evistro's 90 HP, +9 v. AC, and 1d8+5 damage and put it with the rest of the Legion Devil's stats.

((Btw, while looking through this, I noticed one of probably many typos, in that the glossary refers to the Blackscale Bruiser Lizardfolk as an Elite Brute when it's just a regular. Sad, but oh well.))

For a solo encounter, use the HP and claw attack for the Cave Bear: 170 HP, +10 v. AC, 1d8 +5. Yes, it pales in comparison to a true Solo's actual HP, but will your players notice? Probably not, they'll just be glad to down the thing. If you make it a solo encounter though, add some random powers you find fun to make things a bit more interesting than hitting it with your sword again and again and again.

Speaking of solos, a white dragon can make the end of a good 1st adventure as a good boss monster, but it really depends on the role of dragons in your campaign setting. However, you could always just, you guessed it, rename the poor beast something else and let your players beat on it.

Rockphed
2008-07-03, 12:54 AM
For a solo encounter, use the HP and claw attack for the Cave Bear: 170 HP, +10 v. AC, 1d8 +5. Yes, it pales in comparison to a true Solo's actual HP, but will your players notice? Probably not, they'll just be glad to down the thing. If you make it a solo encounter though, add some random powers you find fun to make things a bit more interesting than hitting it with your sword again and again and again.

Wasn't the Cave Bear Errataed to have all 2d8 damage powers or am I confusing it with something else.

DiscipleofBob
2008-07-03, 01:00 AM
Wouldn't know, as I haven't seen any errata, just have the earliest release of the books.

RukiTanuki
2008-07-03, 05:21 PM
Dan, I know you're not personally presenting these questions (just repeating what you've seen come up frequently), but to contribute a little, my thoughts:


Actually, most of the complaints I've seen about the 4E monsters are the exact opposite of these: "What do you mean you can fight Goblins above level 5" [...]

As others have mentioned, there's lots of opportunities to keep using them:
* Use the DMG guidelines to level them up (recommended up to +5 levels)
* Create your own goblin from scratch as the level/role you want, then apply the racial benefits at the back of the Monster Manual
* File the serial numbers off an appropriate monster, and replace any non-goblin attacks with suitable alternatives
* Use the PC creation rules and the MM race entry to construct your own Elite


[...]and of course "So a commoner with a teaspoon can take out a Legion Devil in one hit, huh?"

This is generally said while deliberately ignoring the role of minion rules: to fill out encounters with level-appropriate enemies that pose credible threats but are defeated quickly. So far, the "theoretical" scenarios that have been invented have been harder for me (personally) to believe then the end result they're attempting to achieve (a high-level Minion dying to an utterly pathetic and useless, but still technically successful, attack). In real play, I'd point out that the commoner's chance of affecting the epic Devil at all is practically impossible. Minions use Minion rules when fighting those that present credible, level-appropriate threats. They are not as fragile (in game-world terms) as a normal human (unless they're level 1 Minions, of course).


[...] "Oh I suppose if you fight an Ancient Black Dragon at level 1, it becomes Level 1 too" [...]

I'm not even sure where this one comes from. I can't find any grounds for this comment other than a fairly deliberate misinterpretation of the several-versions-old recommendation that a DM use encounters near the PC's level. It's not really even worth addressing, since I'm hard pressed to think of a single DM who would run the game the way described. If your level 1 heroes go seek out the biggest, baddest, blackest dragon, and storm into his lair, I'm going to put hard gold on the wager that they'll be dead, no matter who's at the table.

Maybe it's a gross twisting of the idea that, since PCs generally fight opponents of their level, and Minion's rules (the 1hp entry in particular) don't apply to every conceivable thing that might happen to them that might cause the equivalent of 1hp damage... that "the next thing you know" we're in Theme Park Land where literally, in the context of the world, things don't exist when the PCs aren't around, no level-inappropriate enemies exist, and the guard says "Welcome to Corneria!" and nothing else. I'm not a big fan of gross extrapolations, personally. It's the equivalent of tell me that I shouldn't go to the barber, because he'll cut a little here and a little there and "the next thing you know," I'll be bald. :)