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Arros Winhadren
2008-07-02, 06:01 PM
Hi all! You'll have to excuse my pitiful knowledge of D&D, I've only played 3 games ever, all of them in the last week. I'm having lots of fun with my throwing-based halfling barbarian, so now I want to see how I might make another quirky character. Here's what I want: a druid/bard that has an animal companion and buffs it with his songs. Is this in any way possible? Are there better classes for this sort of character? Thanks for helping a newbie!

_Puppetmaster_
2008-07-02, 06:13 PM
It would be better to be a straight bard with wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a); and also, your songs buff all of your allies.


Unless you are aiming to go Druidzilla.

Devin
2008-07-02, 06:20 PM
There's a bard/druid prestige class called Fochlucan Lyricist. I'll let the other posters say how good it is. It shouldn't be too bad, since it probably gets a lot of druid stuff.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-02, 06:25 PM
It would be better to be a straight bard

I would suggest the exact inverse: play a straight druid, take ranks in perform, and re-fluff your buff spells to be songs. Because druids have quite a bunch of good buff spells.

The Fochlucan is hideously impractical to make an effective build for, if you've been playing for just a few weeks I would strongly recommend against it. Simply play a straight bard or a straight druid, and let your spell selection cover for the remaining parts.

Hal
2008-07-02, 06:39 PM
I'm not sure I get the point of your thread title. Do you want to be a bard with a pet, or do you want to be a summoner? There's no reason you can't be both, but I'm just looking for clarification here.

Arros Winhadren
2008-07-02, 06:55 PM
The point is that I'm new to D&D, lol. I have no idea if there is a class that actually summons things, or if the closest you can get to that is a bard with a pet. But to be honest, I'd rather be a bard with a pet.

Arakune
2008-07-02, 06:57 PM
The ultimate summoner guide: A.K.A Mastering the Malconvoker (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13677754#post13677754)

My job is done

Chronos
2008-07-02, 07:27 PM
All of the spellcasting classes get access to spells which summon creatures; of the standard classes in the PHB, the druid is best at it. But summoning monsters has two major disadvantages:

1: Most summoning spells have a duration of only one round/level, which means that they'll almost never last for more than one fight, so if that's your focus, you'll have to spend several precious rounds at the beginning of every fight getting your army back, and then possibly another few rounds buffing them, by which time your party members might have already killed whatever it is you're fighting.

2: Even if you get around that somehow (and there are ways), having a whole bunch of creatures on the battlefield at once can really bog down play, since they each have to take their turns and roll their dice, and that's time that the other players aren't doing anything. This gets boring very fast.

Having a single pet, like the druid's animal companion, doesn't have either of these problems. An animal companion really exists just like any other animal, so it doesn't blink out of existence after a few rounds. You might still have to spend a few rounds putting buffs on it, but there are a lot of buffs that have long duration, so they can last hours or all day (just cast them every morning, and you're not wasting time in combat). And as you level, you don't gain more animal companions; the one you have just gets stronger, so it's only one extra thing on the battlefield to keep track of.

de-trick
2008-07-02, 07:46 PM
if you want more than one animal companion go into animal lord (i think thats what it called) its in Complete Adventure

kladams707
2008-07-02, 09:14 PM
if you want more than one animal companion go into animal lord (i think thats what it called) its in Complete Adventure

Actually, I believe it's the beastmaster that grants extra animal companions.

de-trick
2008-07-02, 09:19 PM
Actually, I believe it's the beastmaster that grants extra animal companions.

right and the animal lord is for one kind of animal and they get some ability's for that one type of animal. Never had the book at hand for that one

Arros Winhadren
2008-07-02, 11:30 PM
So it wouldn't be effective to have one level of druid and the rest in bard because the animal companion won't level, right? They only level for your bard levels? In that case, I might just end up going with a bard - I want that more than I want an awesome animal, I just was hoping for both. I'm definitely going to have to give some of these other ideas a try sometime though.

de-trick
2008-07-02, 11:41 PM
wait I just remembered the feat obtain familiar, then use the unearthed arcana variant to make it a animal companion, and no need for druid lev's

or just take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

Chronicled
2008-07-02, 11:42 PM
It would be better to be a straight bard with wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a); and also, your songs buff all of your allies.

Based on Arros's last post, I second this advice. The wild cohort can be a pretty strong pet, and you still get all the fun of being a bard.

Chronos
2008-07-02, 11:58 PM
wait I just remembered the feat obtain familiar, then use the unearthed arcana variant to make it a animal companion, and no need for druid lev'sOr just get a familiar. Or get one of each.

Familiars aren't nearly as effective in combat as animal companions or wild cohorts, but they're a lot smarter, and they have all of your skills (which is pretty awesome, as a bard). If you want something to bite an orc's face off, you want an animal companion (or wild cohort, which is almost the same thing). If you want something to scout on the enemy and then report back to you, or steal the keys hanging on the hook behind the chief guard's desk, or sing a duet with you in the tavern, you want a familiar.

Waspinator
2008-07-03, 12:10 AM
I have to agree with most of this advice. There's two main options I would do if I were you:

1: Go Bard and take the Wild Cohort feat.

2: Go Druid and put skill points into Perform.

I would probably not do Bard-Druid multi-classing; it doesn't seem like too good of a combination to me.

If you talk to your DM, you could probably convince him to let you say you're doing the verbal and/or somatic components for your Druid spells by playing whatever instrument you choose, which would let you basically cast via music. If you can do that, I would go with the Druid option. If you want to summon an army of animals to fight for you, Druid is the way to go with the "Summon Nature’s Ally" spells, especially since their spontaneous casting option lets you prepare any other spells that you want and then convert them into the appropriate summoning spell.

Human Paragon 3
2008-07-03, 09:25 AM
You can also use the savage bard variaint found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) to combine powerful summons with bardic abilities. Add in the wild cohort feat (or obtain familiar) to get a permanant pet.

Person_Man
2008-07-03, 09:56 AM
What level are you playing at?
What books are available?

There are a bunch of different options for this.

1) Learn how to optimize Inspire Courage. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095)
2) Summon things.
3) Take the Obtain Familiar (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Obtain_Familiar,all) and Improved Familiar (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Familiar,all) or Dragon Familiar (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Familiar,all) feats.
4) Take Leadership (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Familiar,all). A reasonable DM will let you take an animal as a cohort, and its a core feat.
5) If you can use supplements, as everyone has mentioned you can take Wild Cohort (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wild_Cohort,all).
6) Or you can take Dragon Cohort (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Cohort,all).

Strait Bard works fine. You might also want to consider Warchanter or Beast Heart Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4).

Leon
2008-07-03, 10:12 AM
High level idea, Druid/Bard/Arcane Hireophant - Badass Companion that is also your familiar

(High Level due to when bards can take the feat for a Famailiar)

Arros Winhadren
2008-07-03, 02:31 PM
Thanks all! This is going to be a dungeon crawl character, so our DM is going to put us in a 25-level dungeon and give us a character level for each level of the dungeon we complete. So it'll be going from low to high. I think I'll likely go with the straight bard/wild cohort feat because it sounds like the simplest for a newbie, but I really appreciate all the advice!

Oh yeah, I think I can use any Wizards 3.5 book (except for psionics, apparently my friends have had trouble with psionics in the past), so any feat should be good.

monty
2008-07-03, 04:00 PM
Oh, it's going into epics. Change the strategy then.

1. Go straight druid.
2. Take Epic Spellcasting at 21.
3. Win everything.

Waspinator
2008-07-03, 04:36 PM
On a side note, the whole anti-psionics bias that you see so often really does bug me. Is it really so hard for people to realize that just because pre-3E psionics was broken doesn't mean that the newer version must be too?

monty
2008-07-03, 04:43 PM
On a side note, the whole anti-psionics bias that you see so often really does bug me. Is it really so hard for people to realize that just because pre-3E psionics was broken doesn't mean that the newer version must be too?

I'm curious about that as well. I've never played psionics (my DM is one of those types) but from what I've heard, it's much more balanced than most normal spellcasters.

Arros Winhadren
2008-07-03, 05:02 PM
I think my friend played a psionic one time and he was completely broken, and then later he found out that he had been playing it completely wrong. After that everyone just avoided psionics.

Devin
2008-07-03, 05:04 PM
Since he was doing it wrong, though, it doesn't reflect on the actual psionics rules at all, does it?

Tengu
2008-07-03, 05:08 PM
Was it before DND 3.5? Or did he make the most common mistake about psionics and forgot he can't spend more power points on a power than his manifester level? A mistake that, no offense to your friend, only barely literate people do if you ask me.

Psionics are more balanced than normal casters. It's not an issue if you don't have an optimized group, but if the players are familiar with Batman or CoDzilla, it's better to use psions instead and cut down on the cheese a little. Only a little, because psions have their own game-breaking tricks. Of course, every class does.

Apart from CW Samurai.

pyrefiend
2008-07-03, 05:17 PM
The anti-psionic bias is so annoying. I don't understand it, in my experience psionics makes more sense than magic and is way more balanced.

Tengu
2008-07-03, 05:19 PM
Show me a reasonable and non-annoying bias.

mikeejimbo
2008-07-03, 05:21 PM
I'm curious about that as well. I've never played psionics (my DM is one of those types) but from what I've heard, it's much more balanced than most normal spellcasters.

Our DM doesn't allow psionics. His answer why: He doesn't have the book. I guess he doesn't want to get it either, but I think he might allow it if we got him the book.

Actually that's a moot point because we're converting to 4E. Maybe when the Psionic power source comes out...

Anyway, I like bards, so I'm glad to see someone else does. (When I lamented about the lack of a bard in 4E, I was told that it would be useless because we already have a warlord.)

mostlyharmful
2008-07-03, 05:21 PM
Druid gets perform as a class skill, anything fluffwise you want is entirely open without giving up the precious, precious caster levels (please now note the rules of practical optimization, if you are unfamiliar with the rules run a search on the 3.5 wizards boards). Druid's the best summoner., they're the best in terms of eat-your-face comapions stakes, they can also dominate/charm monsters that are run into, use class featrues to make friends with everything they lack spellslots to mindrape and after all that there's still the Leadership feat and hirelings if you want to expand your empire. When you're playing a druid if you're only controlling twice as many beings as the rest of the players put together you're doing something wrong.

Waspinator
2008-07-03, 05:24 PM
Was it before DND 3.5? Or did he make the most common mistake about psionics and forgot he can't spend more power points on a power than his manifester level? A mistake that, no offense to your friend, only barely literate people do if you ask me.
That is a rather stupid mistake. It's like allowing a Sorceror to combine all of his spell slots into one uber-Fireball and then wondering why he was able to one-shot the main villain of the campaign.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-03, 05:34 PM
On a side note, the whole anti-psionics bias that you see so often really does bug me. Is it really so hard for people to realize that just because pre-3E psionics was broken doesn't mean that the newer version must be too?

I'm not saying they're good reasons, but the reasons I've most commonly heard are
(1) people forget about the maximum power points spent, and think a level-1 psion can boost Up To Eleven
(2) people forget about magic/psionic transparency, and their enemies have too little defense against psions
(3) people know about magic/psionic transparency and fail to see a meaningful difference between the two, and thus see no reason to use both of them
(4) people find ectoplasm and sentient crystals not fitting for a fantasy setting
(5) it was badly done in every earlier edition

monty
2008-07-03, 05:38 PM
(1) people forget about the maximum power points spent, and think a level-1 psion can boost Up To Eleven

That's ridiculous. It's not even funny.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-03, 05:44 PM
That's ridiculous. It's not even funny.

No, but this belief is common enough that I think that WOTC should have proofread that particular book better.

(of course, it is also precisely what a munchkin would attempt to get away with, but most people who dislike or misunderstand psionics aren't munchkins)

Vexxation
2008-07-03, 09:06 PM
That's ridiculous. It's not even funny.

Whoah... an adventurer is you?
I haven't heard that phrase since I quit.

But I must say, that Malconvoker build is awesome.
In theory, of course, because in practice, it would make gameplay waaaaay boring.

Waspinator
2008-07-05, 12:04 PM
(3) people know about magic/psionic transparency and fail to see a meaningful difference between the two, and thus see no reason to use both of them
(4) people find ectoplasm and sentient crystals not fitting for a fantasy setting
If those are the same people saying both, then isn't that kind of a contradiction? "It's not different enough from other types of magic, since I don't like the thematic stuff that makes it different"?

There is a small legitimate point in there, though. Not every setting that a DM might use will be compatible with every possible theme or class. If you're using a typical D&D setting where you can have ninjas running around alongside paladins and clerics, then psionics doesn't seem too out of place since there's already all kinds of weird stuff running around. If you, for example, instead were using a setting where magic was very rare and there are only a handful of clerics and wizards in the world of most of them were multi-classed with something else, then having psionics in there too might not make sense.