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Hal
2008-07-02, 06:33 PM
I never noticed this little item before. It's from Complete Mage. It essentially allows you to use three wands at once, using as many charges from each as you have wands loaded in the rod (so, if you load three wands into the wand, you use three charges everytime you cast).

Three spell effects simultaneously? I can't think what I'd put in there to cause mayhem and destruction. I suppose you could use it to do massive combat buffing at once.

What would you put in this thing?

SCPRedMage
2008-07-02, 06:38 PM
I once used a Rod of Many Wands, three wands of Orb of Cold, and abuse of Metamagic Spell Trigger to take down a great wyrm red dragon in two rounds, including a SURPRISE round. At level 14.

Hawriel
2008-07-02, 06:54 PM
meh friend of mine duct taped every want, rod and staff his character had. Including the staff or power and magi. Reworked it to fire aff all effects with one command word. He called it the staff of kick ass. That was along time ago, back when you didnt need rules for every thing.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-02, 07:03 PM
I never noticed this little item before. It's from Complete Mage. It essentially allows you to use three wands at once, using as many charges from each as you have wands loaded in the rod (so, if you load three wands into the wand, you use three charges everytime you cast).

Three spell effects simultaneously? I can't think what I'd put in there to cause mayhem and destruction. I suppose you could use it to do massive combat buffing at once.

What would you put in this thing?
That gets expensive fast. If you've got three wands loaded in there, you expend three charges from each wand (nine total). If you put three caster level 11 wands of Empowered Scorching Ray in there, you've got a one-round damage output of 36d6*1.5 (three rays each, three wands, 4d6*1.5 per ray; average damage of about 189 points of damage, assuming all nine hit - but then, as touch attacks, you'll likely only miss on a natural 1, and you'll crit around 95% of the time you threaten, so those two ends pretty much cancel each other out), but you're spending 5,940 gp each time you do it (assuming, for the moment, you didn't craft them yourself) on a one-shot effect.

But then, it's also breaking the action barrier, so to speak.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-07-02, 07:09 PM
The characters in the Nodwick comic once had to kill a big bad demon, and Artax brought out his "Wand of Everything." Every wand he'd ever had he saved at one charge, then Wizard Glued them all together and gave them the same command word. He pointed it and spoke "Abracapocalypse!" and in the next panel they were all running away, Artax cursing about Spell Resistance and another character saying something about how many rounds it would take the demon to climb out of the crater.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-02, 07:22 PM
meh friend of mine duct taped every want, rod and staff his character had. Including the staff or power and magi. Reworked it to fire aff all effects with one command word. He called it the staff of kick ass. That was along time ago, back when you didnt need rules for every thing.

You don't need rules for everything per se, but consider: If you're setting off ten or twenty decent damaging effects on the same target with one action, it's pretty much dead, pretty much regardless of what it is. Consider what twenty caster level 10 Fireballs do (assuming, for the moment, they've been Energy Substituted so that you've got four of the base elements in there). If the target makes every save, but doesn't have evasion, you're looking at 200d6/2 damage in one action. That's an average of 350 damage dealt. Suddenly there's very little point for anyone else to participate in a battle. Sidelining other characters isn't fun for their players. Sure, it's cool the first time or two, but if the one character starts soloing everything in one-round, nobody else gets spotlight time. Hence there needs to be a limit on that kind of thing.

nargbop
2008-07-02, 07:32 PM
Three Rods of Greater Wonder strapped into this thing would be fun. I agree, this item is terrifically overpowered as an offensive item, but as an inducer of mayhem, it's greta.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-02, 09:03 PM
Three Rods of Greater Wonder strapped into this thing would be fun. I agree, this item is terrifically overpowered as an offensive item, but as an inducer of mayhem, it's greta.

The standard Rod of Wonder has around a 35-40% chance of dealing a notably hostile effect to the target; three of them fired at once would actually be quite useful - as you could use it at whim, and you've got a decent chance for a notably hostile effect. Most the others are generic annoyances (that apply pretty equally to everyone, such as "Heavy Rains" or "Endless buterflies"), or have no practical game effect (although you'll want a Hat of Disguise for when you eventually roll the colors). It's the 4% per invocation Reduce effect... with no specified duration ... that you want to avoid. Unless, you know, you're a Full caster not reliant on a spellbook - then it's not nearly as bad.

RebelRogue
2008-07-02, 09:10 PM
As I understand it, you can only use wands with this item, not rods.

Deth Muncher
2008-07-02, 09:23 PM
Wait, let me see if I'm getting this right. Say, for example, you use three Wands of Fireball. Ok. You plug them all in. Great. Now, every time you use the wand, you shoot 3 fireballs, but use 9 charges? As in, it drains from each wand the the number of wands in the rod? I don't see that as being quite so great.

Meat Shield
2008-07-02, 09:26 PM
I think it is more one of those items you use when "it absolutely, positively, has gotta die. And fast - before it eats the cleric."

Hal
2008-07-02, 09:52 PM
Hm . . . I was hoping people had some imaginative combinations. Yes, expensive, but I think you do it more for the "three spells at once" thrill.

Sure, anyone could slap three wands of Shivering Touch in there (and cause your DM to hide his BBEGs in undisclosed security bunkers for the remainder of your campaign), but I was thinking along the lines of good spells to chain together like that.

Death
2008-07-02, 10:00 PM
Man that Item is sweet. I think I'll make 4E rules for it.

Da King
2008-07-02, 10:31 PM
Isn't there some sort of "infinite wand"(MIC, I think) that you can only use once or twice a day, but it recharges overnight? That might help cut costs if you aren't going to fire this much.

monty
2008-07-02, 10:34 PM
There needs to be a Rod of Many Rods. Something like the Wand of Create Wand (of Create Wand of Create Wand...) that someone mentioned in the Useless Items thread a while ago. Or the Belt of Many Belts.

Griemont
2008-07-02, 10:35 PM
I'd put three rods of many wands in my rod of many wands (If it allowed rods, that is :smallwink:) And so on, until somewhere down the line I put fireball wands in instead, and can cast, say, x^3 fireballs with one command word. :smallamused:

Hawriel
2008-07-02, 11:00 PM
You don't need rules for everything per se, but consider: If you're setting off ten or twenty decent damaging effects on the same target with one action, it's pretty much dead, pretty much regardless of what it is. Consider what twenty caster level 10 Fireballs do (assuming, for the moment, they've been Energy Substituted so that you've got four of the base elements in there). If the target makes every save, but doesn't have evasion, you're looking at 200d6/2 damage in one action. That's an average of 350 damage dealt. Suddenly there's very little point for anyone else to participate in a battle. Sidelining other characters isn't fun for their players. Sure, it's cool the first time or two, but if the one character starts soloing everything in one-round, nobody else gets spotlight time. Hence there needs to be a limit on that kind of thing.

I was giving an anecdote about my friends when we where teens. In a time when every one was reveling in obserdety. The staff of "kick ass" I mentioned was only used afew times. The last time was when the characters had an all out battle royal in the middle of waterdeep. Against each other. It was for fun and sillyness. It was the last time the staff was ever used because the mage who had it broke it over his knee in the middle of a fight he could not win. So every one died.

Your big tirade of numbers, dice, damage and meeny head players meens nothing. You dont need rules for every thing. Having no rules for every particular thing that may happen does not meen that players will run amuck runing the game for every one. The GM has final say on every thing. whether there are rules or not. Honestly relaxe, not every thing is a danger to your fun.

monty
2008-07-02, 11:06 PM
I'd put three rods of many wands in my rod of many wands (If it allowed rods, that is :smallwink:) And so on, until somewhere down the line I put fireball wands in instead, and can cast, say, x^3 fireballs with one command word. :smallamused:

Nitpick: It'd be 3^x, which is even more for all whole numbers except for x=3.

Worira
2008-07-02, 11:17 PM
It's also the same if x=2 or x=1.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-03, 11:16 AM
It's also the same if x=2 or x=1.

erm, no, 3^1=3 1^3=1 and 3^2=9 2^3=8 so 3^x is better in those two cases as well.

Siosilvar
2008-07-03, 11:23 AM
It seems to me that Mass Hold Person + Chain Lightning + Fireball would work wonders... if you could put the first two spells into wands.

How about the "ultimate" one-action illusion/buff: Mirror Image + Greater Invisibility + Blur/Displacement?

As everyone else said, this is expensive. You spend 3x as much every time you use it, plus you've got to pay for the rod.

Person_Man
2008-07-03, 12:15 PM
Consecrate Spell Trigger feat from Book of Exalted Deeds allows you to use a Turn Undead use to consecrate a use of a wand/rod/whatever, making 1/2 of the damage divine (not subject to SR or Energy Resistance or Immunity).

Purify Spell Trigger let's you go through a similar process, but Good targets take no damage, Neutral take 1/2, and Evil take more.

Taken together, you could use the Rod of Many Wonders to go nova and kill virtually any BBEG without fear of hurting your friends (as long as they're good).


A better long term strategy is for someone with a lot of spell uses per day (Sorcerer, Favored Soul, or the ever unpopular Healer - who gets the best spell progression but the worst spell list in the game) to invest cross class in UMD (or dip 1 level in Exemplar or 3 in Warlock or something similar) and invest in the various wand feats.

Double Wand Wielder from Comp Arcane lets you activate 2 wands as in 1 full round action.

Master Wand from Complete Arcane lets you use an equivalent spell slot to fuel a wand. So you could burn an unused 3rd level spell to activate a Wand of Lightning Bolt, using no charges.

Wand Mastery from Eberron Campaign Setting increases the Save DC and caster level of any wand you use by 2.

Put them together, and you can cast 2 spells every round. Add in a Quickened spell for 3. Or Greater Celerity for 4.

Heck, it might even make a high level Healer playable.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-03, 04:43 PM
I was giving an anecdote about my friends when we where teens. In a time when every one was reveling in obserdety. The staff of "kick ass" I mentioned was only used afew times. The last time was when the characters had an all out battle royal in the middle of waterdeep. Against each other. It was for fun and sillyness. It was the last time the staff was ever used because the mage who had it broke it over his knee in the middle of a fight he could not win. So every one died.

Your big tirade of numbers, dice, damage and meeny head players meens nothing. You dont need rules for every thing. Having no rules for every particular thing that may happen does not meen that players will run amuck runing the game for every one. The GM has final say on every thing. whether there are rules or not. Honestly relaxe, not every thing is a danger to your fun.
I didn't say it needed rules, I said it needed limits.

Once or twice is perfectly fine in and of itself (which, from what you say, is what happened in your campaign). That doesn't particularly need a rule stopping it - because the group is self-limiting on such behavior.

However, inconsiderate powergamers happen. The guy who tries this cool idea he saw, and makes it work once or twice, then thinks "hey! I can keep doing this" and does so repeatedly needs to be stopped from doing so. This grouping needs a limiter on such behavior - be that the DM saying "dude, no." or "Sorry, that doesn't work due to it costing a Standard Action to activate a wand", such behavior needs a limiter of some form to keep the game running smoothly.

mabriss lethe
2008-07-03, 05:57 PM
Three Wands of Shadow Conjuration is probably one of the most amusing and flexible options available. Expensive, but fun.

Grease, Glitterdust, and Fear....cheaper, and oh god the mayhem. suddenly everyone is fleeing in a panic while blind and slipping all over the place.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-03, 06:24 PM
Three Wands of Shadow Conjuration is probably one of the most amusing and flexible options available. Expensive, but fun.

Grease, Glitterdust, and Fear....cheaper, and oh god the mayhem. suddenly everyone is fleeing in a panic while blind and slipping all over the place.
Eh, by default, the save DC on Wands is the minimum for the spell. So that's DC 11, 13, and 16. A commoner-1 with Wisdom-10 will make the save vs. Grease 50% of the time, the save vs. Glitterdust 40% of the time, and the save vs. Fear (I'm assuming you mean Fear, the 4th level spell, rather than Cause Fear, the 1st level spell...) 25% of the time.

Now, if you really want to get cheap, put in three Wands of Fear (the 4th level spell). Sure, it's expensive... but:

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
If you save vs. Fear, you become Shaken for one round.

If you save vs. 3 Fears, you become Panicked for one round. This is very, very expensive to pull off, but anything subject to it is Panicked for one round even if they pass all three saves. Three wands of Fear put into a Rod of Many wands is a "lose, no save" effect, even if it is only one round - and applies to an area.

monty
2008-07-03, 06:27 PM
Now, if you really want to get cheap, put in three Wands of Fear (the 4th level spell). Sure, it's expensive... but:

If you save vs. Fear, you become Shaken for one round.

If you save vs. 3 Fears, you become Panicked for one round. This is very, very expensive to pull off, but anything subject to it is Panicked for one round even if they pass all three saves. Three wands of Fear put into a Rod of Many wands is a "lose, no save" effect, even if it is only one round - and applies to an area.

So it becomes an expensive "Win Fight" stick? I like the sound of that.

Jack_Simth
2008-07-03, 06:42 PM
So it becomes an expensive "Win Fight" stick? I like the sound of that.
Sorta. See, Fear is a Necromancy [Mind-Affecting] [Fear] effect - which means anything immune to Necromancy, [Mind-Affecting] effects, or [Fear] effects is completely immune to the tactic. Constructs, Undead, Vermin, Paladins, anyone under the influence of Heroes' Feast, anyone under the effects of Mind Blank, (and so on) is flat-out immune.

Oh yeah - and it also permits SR - the default caster level on a Wand of a 4th level spell is only 7th (if you get a Bard to make it, it's a 3rd level spell, which makes it less expensive, but the caster level is the same). At that low a caster level, but with the level you'll need to be to pull this off, this means anything with a meaningful amount of SR is effectively immune.

Mind you, with Familiar Spell and a Rod of Quicken spell, you can arrange to get three castings off in a round (one standard, one Swift, one from your familiar) without the existing Rod, and you get to use your own save DC and caster level.

Worira
2008-07-03, 06:57 PM
I do not want to think about what kind of damage a metamagic-spamming artificer could do with this and some wands of orb of whatever.