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View Full Version : SW saga ed; worth it?



Druid_lord
2008-07-03, 12:55 PM
I was considering buying Star wars roleplaying game saga edition and was wondering what people thouhgt of it.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-07-03, 12:56 PM
I was considering buying Star wars roleplaying game saga edition and was wondering what people thouhgt of it.

Yes, it's a great system. Smooth as silk to play, well designed, and simulates things excellently.

Also, it's PHB/MM/DMG in one book, so that works very well.

SilverSheriff
2008-07-03, 01:39 PM
if Saga Edition is silk, then it is some pretty top-notch silk.

it runs great.

hamishspence
2008-07-03, 01:45 PM
Apparently it has a lot of errata though. Haven't looked for errata yet: got the books, no obvious wrong things.

Threats of the Galaxy is also reputed to be buggy: I just have the first 2 books.

They are interesting: all diagonals take 2 spaces. Almost as odd as 4th ed having them all take 1 space.

Person_Man
2008-07-03, 01:54 PM
SWSE is what I wanted 4E to be. I highly suggest it.

Hawriel
2008-07-03, 08:28 PM
Hmm I guess I'll be the guy that sais it. I cant stand D20 class, level based games for star wars. Characters are to fluid in what they know and can do in a star wars setting. I recomend D6 star wars. And or get D6 space. Stat and skill based character creation. D20 is to confining. Oh and NAY.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-07-03, 09:00 PM
Class balance is still the same. Jedi come out on top.:smallsigh:

Space combat is much more simple to run, but much more boring.

It's got talent trees. :smallsmile:

The lack of craft skills has really annoyed my group as several of the characters were "techies" and always were whipping up new droids/guns/accessories. The lack of craft skills in RAW has caused some problems for us.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-04, 07:25 AM
Class balance is still the same. Jedi come out on top.:smallsigh:

Let me build to 20, and I'll design a character capable of defeating any jedi you can come up with without ever once touching the Force Sensitivity feat (or going droid).

They're not that far apart.

Also, it's a great system.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-07-04, 09:53 AM
Any Jedi I come up with? This sounds like a challange! I'm curious as to what your build is? I suppose a gunslinger/bounty hunter w/knockdown shot, Hunter's Mark, and Debilitating shot would have a chance, but there's still Deflect to counteract that (to some extent at least).

Edit: Yes, I do agree that it is a very fun system.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-04, 05:21 PM
Any Jedi I come up with? This sounds like a challange! I'm curious as to what your build is? I suppose a gunslinger/bounty hunter w/knockdown shot, Hunter's Mark, and Debilitating shot would have a chance, but there's still Deflect to counteract that (to some extent at least).

Edit: Yes, I do agree that it is a very fun system.

No ... and I admit I'm boasting prematurely as I never tested this to 20 in practice, but I came up with it as a thought exercise, and in theory, I think it should work as intended.

In any case, since you ask:

human scout 7/gunslinger 3/bounty hunter 10

1: Weapon Proficiency (rifles), Weapon Proficiency (pistols), Weapon Proficiency (simple weapons), Shake It Off, Point Blank Shot, Skill Focus (Stealth), Improved Stealth
2: Precise Shot
3: Quick Draw, Hidden Movement
4: Skill Focus (Perception)
5: Total Concealment
6: Careful Shot, Deadeye
7: Acute Senses
8: Keen Shot
9: Far Shot, Dastardly Strike
10: Familiar Foe +1
11: Hunter's Mark
12: Weapon Focus (rifles), Trusty Sidearm +1
13: Debilitating Shot
14: Familiar Foe +2
15: Skill Focus (Initiative), Hunter's Target
16: Familiar Foe +3
17: Relentless
18: Improved Defenses (or Skill Training [whatever], or whatever), Familiar Foe +4
19: Improved Initiative
20: Familiar Foe +5

Statistics priority would be Dexterity first, Wisdom a close second, and everything else following after those two big ones, with Dexterity and Wisdom boosted with levels. With base skill checks (before Dexterity/Wisdom and other modifiers are factored in) of +20 Stealth, +20 Initiative and +20 Perception, with each of them getting a free re-roll as needed, we're likely to see our target (Perception) long before he/she sees us (Stealth).

We're going to need some kind of concealment or cover. Light concealment will do, since we can turn any concealment at all into total concealment with a wave of our magic scout wand. If forced to, stir up a dust cloud, toss a smoke grenade -- whatever -- and we're golden. If our concealment also provides concealment to our target from us, that's fine because Keen Shot negates it.

Sense Surroundings negates the total concealment penalty to detect us if used (normally it's a swift action, so it might not be in play, but we'll be generous and assume it is), but it doesn't actually negate the total concealment itself (just the effect on Perception checks), so in the unlikely event that we're actually spotted before we can do terrible damage, our opponent is still relegated to only "attacking into our square" at a -5 penalty and does not have line of sight, which eliminates much of the Force-power nastiness that might otherwise have been visited upon us.

More likely, we're going to make our Perception check to see our (probably not that good at Stealth) Force-user opponent before he/she sees us. Remember, Perception checks suffer penalties for distance, and then the Force-user has to also beat our Stealth check with that reduced Perception check. We have to do the same, but I'm betting we have a better overall combination of Stealth and Perception.

Given that's true, we can spend one round buffing up with Familiar Foe, another round aiming, then finally initiate a surprise round (no Deflect allowed when flatfooted!) with a +25 base (not in point-blank range [we don't want to be that close!], not factoring in Dexterity or any bonus from a modified rifle) chance to hit even at long range using our "accurate" rifle, the "blaster rifle, sniper" (aiming w/scope + accurate + Far Shot = no penalty!) mentioned in the official errata thread. Our opponent loses Dexterity to Reflex Defense and, if hit, takes 4d8 + 20 damage (an average of 38 hit points) and automatically moves at least three steps along the condition track (Debilitating Shot, Hunter's Mark and Dastardly Strike) but possibly four (damage exceeding Fortitude Defense).

We now roll initiative. The Force-user should be at either -5 or -10 to this check, while we get a free re-roll on our very high check. We're probably going to win. So, taking another aim action against our still-flatfooted target (flatfooted targets can't Deflect!), we fire another shot that suffers no penalty for range, is now targeting an opponent who's at either -5 or -10 to all defenses and is still denied Dexterity to Reflex Defense, and does three or four levels of condition track movement ...

... the end.

This calls for a lot of setup and caution. If you just drop the two into a boxed-in little arena, the Force-user wins. That's not really a reasonable way to judge how characters perform in practice, though.

Even if "noticed," though, given any concealment at all, we can still take aimed shots with very good bonuses from extremely great distances while the Force-user tries to close while being safe from the worst long-range Force-power cheese (total concealment = no line of sight), providing at least a decent chance of victory against even opponents with really nasty Force powers. Furthermore, Relentless makes us immune to condition track movement (Force Stun) ourselves, even without any concealment. Nice bonus. :smallwink:

One last note: being human is hardly required since you don't really need that last feat. Actually, rodian would probably be the most optimal. I just ... I just ...

They're ugly, and they're bugs. :smallfrown:

Maybe if I could convince a GM to let me play as a human "raised by rodians" ... :smalltongue:

Caewil
2008-07-04, 08:31 PM
SWSE really captures the fluid feel of Star Wars characters. You can multiclass freely, make practically any character concept work and balance issues are minimal.

Talya
2008-07-04, 08:40 PM
Given that's true, we can spend one round buffing up with Familiar Foe, another round aiming, then finally initiate a surprise round (no Deflect allowed when flatfooted!) with a +25 base (not in point-blank range [we don't want to be that close!], not factoring in Dexterity or any bonus from a modified rifle) chance to hit even at long range using our "accurate" rifle, the "blaster rifle, sniper" (aiming w/scope + accurate + Far Shot = no penalty!) mentioned in the official errata thread. Our opponent loses Dexterity to Reflex Defense and, if hit, takes 4d8 + 20 damage (an average of 38 hit points) and automatically moves at least three steps along the condition track (Debilitating Shot, Hunter's Mark and Dastardly Strike) but possibly four (damage exceeding Fortitude Defense).


Playing around, I built a jedi with 48 reflex defense once, if I remember correctly. It dropped to 45 flatfooted.
While you could still pull this off, it's one of those "you only ever get hit when the enemy rolls close to a natural 20" builds.

Woot Spitum
2008-07-04, 11:18 PM
Definately worth every penny. Saga Edition is one of the most enjoyable systems I have ever played.

Levyathyn
2008-07-04, 11:34 PM
Yes, it is. Saga is amazing, and a perfect blend of D20 stand-bys and 4E skills. The defenses are much better than AC or Saves, and the system just works.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-05, 12:37 AM
Playing around, I built a jedi with 48 reflex defense once, if I remember correctly. It dropped to 45 flatfooted.
While you could still pull this off, it's one of those "you only ever get hit when the enemy rolls close to a natural 20" builds.

I'd love to see the build that retains a 45 to Reflex Defense while flat-footed. I'm prepared to believe you, but I still have to see it first.

I was able to build a jedi who got up to I think 50, but it relied on a variety of boosts that mostly all go away if flat-footed. Oh, well, of course you can take the talent chain leading up to Uncanny Dodge I and retain your Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense (bonus: and even thwart Dastardly Strike!), but you're still going to lose the Jar'Kai (assuming you took that) benefits entirely, and that's a solid +6(!!) gone right there.

By the by, the sniper I put together actually ends up with, at level 20, assuming standard 25-point buy:

Strength: 8
Intelligence: 12
Dexterity: 20
Wisdom: 20
Constitution: 13
Charisma: 8

So that's +5 from Dexterity ... take that original BAB of +18, add +1 for Weapon Focus, another +1 for Careful Shot, another +1 for a tech specialist-modified rifle and +5 for Familiar Foe, and you end up with +31 (+32 within point-blank range, but we'd rather avoid being that close ... or even +32/+33 if you decide you can stomach being a bipedal bug), which mostly will hit anything, but ... assuming you can actually get a 45 Reflex Defense flat-footed, maybe not everything. :smalltongue:

Mushroom Ninja
2008-07-05, 08:42 AM
Actually, my jedi has 51 Reflex Defense when not flatfooted. (though that may not matter all that much)

I agree that if we start in a little box, the jedi wins. I also agree if the jedi and your uber-gunslinger were set up really far apart with lots of obstacles in between the gunman would beat the jedi.

I must ask you though, what's your will defense. If I can reliably hit it with my Force Haze, It's going to be pretty hard for you to hit me, no matter how much dust you're hiding behind.

My calculations put it at about 28 which I can hit pretty reliably.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-05, 02:17 PM
Actually, my jedi has 51 Reflex Defense when not flatfooted. (though that may not matter all that much)

I agree that if we start in a little box, the jedi wins. I also agree if the jedi and your uber-gunslinger were set up really far apart with lots of obstacles in between the gunman would beat the jedi.

I must ask you though, what's your will defense. If I can reliably hit it with my Force Haze, It's going to be pretty hard for you to hit me, no matter how much dust you're hiding behind.

My calculations put it at about 28 which I can hit pretty reliably.

Well, no ... defenses are base 30 at level 20 (level +10). It would then be +5 Wisdom, +2 gunslinger ... so ... either 37 or, with Improved Defenses, 38. "Weak-minded, I am not."

Problem: Force Haze also calls upon you to spend a Force point and only lasts for one minute. That means you can use it if you win the "I find you first" game, but if you don't, you can only use it if we know about one another. If we do, and you can beat a 37 or 38 Will Defense, you get one minute of free total concealment during which to try to win at "I find you first."

What I like most about the build, though, is not so much being able to win against jedi in PvP contests; rather, I like that it emphasizes everything jedi generally aren't. That is, where jedi are usually melee-focused, the sniper is extremely long-range focused. Furthermore, Force powers that provide combat buffs are either melee-only (Dark Rage) or always require a swift action and so aren't compatible with aiming (Battle Strike).

Thus, rather than trying to be like your jedi friends (and failing), with this build, you can focus on something that's completely outside their area and actually remain relevant. Added bonus: with such high Perception and Stealth scores (with rerolls, too), and with Survival as a class skill for tracking, you can also actually, you know ... scout. Imagine! A scout who scouts! :smalltongue:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-05, 02:39 PM
Okay, I just worked out the 45 Reflex Defense. I didn't spend time thinking about it before because I was in a hurry, but I ran through it in my mind just now, and I think I have it. Wait! In fact, I can even beat it! Here's how:

Start as a gungan. Eat the 13-point cost to get a 19 starting Dexterity, then boost it at every opportunity to 20 for a 24 total. This gets us +7 from Dexterity and another +2 as a species bonus.

Get Martial Arts I, II and III, as well as Improved Defenses. That's another +4.

Get at least one level in a +4 Reflex Defense class (Bounty Hunter, Gunslinger or Ace Pilot). That, of course, is +4.

Be sure to go up the Awareness talent chain to Uncanny Dodge I. Now we retain the bonus while flatfooted.

End result: 30 + 7 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 47 Reflex Defense when flat-footed, or 48 if you take Niman and happen to have a lightsaber in your hand at the time you're caught flatfooted. Take Jar'Kai and maximize Lightsaber Defense, and you end up at 54 Reflex Defense anytime you can take a swift action. Take Dodge, too (why not?), and now it's 55 against one chosen person each round. Throw in Evasion, and explosions are a joke to you.

Problem: You're a gungan. Everyone hates you. Your GM gleefully points out that you've twinked Reflex Defense at the expense of everything else, then kills you with Will or Fortitude-targeted attacks. The other players aren't that upset to see your gungan die because they've been harboring "kill Jar-Jar" fantasies since the day they saw Episode I.

Still ... 47 Reflex Defense while flat-footed. Geesh! :smalleek:

Druid_lord
2008-07-05, 03:09 PM
i has 2 concerns that must be addressed conerining saga; is it practical to play a gray jedi? And finding a group to play presents difficulties until school/ gaming club starts, since whenevr i get involved in a pbp game, it either dies off within 1 month or i lose intrest in 1 month.

hamishspence
2008-07-05, 03:12 PM
Gungan bounty hunter: that makes me think of Star wars Tales (5 or 6)

Fett: "First rule: We do not talk about Fett Club"
Fett: "Second rule: WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FETT CLUB!"
Fett: "Now, does anyone know why we call it Fett Club?"
Hopeful: "Because it's named after the greatest of the Mandalorians, Jango Fett!"
BANG!
Fett: "Third rule: A Mandalorian does not interrupt. He raises his hand to speak. Oh, and he was correct."
.....
Gungan: "Mesa Jay-Jay bi-"
Dakka dakka dakka!

Fett: "Fifth rule. No Gungans, EVER!"

Anyone else a fan of Star wars Tales and that particular comic?

Talya
2008-07-05, 05:43 PM
Okay, I just worked out the 45 Reflex Defense. I didn't spend time thinking about it before because I was in a hurry, but I ran through it in my mind just now, and I think I have it. Wait! In fact, I can even beat it! Here's how:

Start as a gungan. Eat the 13-point cost to get a 19 starting Dexterity, then boost it at every opportunity to 20 for a 24 total. This gets us +7 from Dexterity and another +2 as a species bonus.

Get Martial Arts I, II and III, as well as Improved Defenses. That's another +4.

Get at least one level in a +4 Reflex Defense class (Bounty Hunter, Gunslinger or Ace Pilot). That, of course, is +4.

Be sure to go up the Awareness talent chain to Uncanny Dodge I. Now we retain the bonus while flatfooted.

End result: 30 + 7 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 47 Reflex Defense when flat-footed, or 48 if you take Niman and happen to have a lightsaber in your hand at the time you're caught flatfooted. Take Jar'Kai and maximize Lightsaber Defense, and you end up at 54 Reflex Defense anytime you can take a swift action. Take Dodge, too (why not?), and now it's 55 against one chosen person each round. Throw in Evasion, and explosions are a joke to you.

Problem: You're a gungan. Everyone hates you. Your GM gleefully points out that you've twinked Reflex Defense at the expense of everything else, then kills you with Will or Fortitude-targeted attacks. The other players aren't that upset to see your gungan die because they've been harboring "kill Jar-Jar" fantasies since the day they saw Episode I.

Still ... 47 Reflex Defense while flat-footed. Geesh! :smalleek:

The Armored jedi route is likely worth it if you're going all out reflex defense, as it's less feat/talent intensive. Start as a force sensitive soldier, then multiclass into jedi. End up taking a bunch of useful armor talents (which the Jedi Knight PrC can take, btw.)

Mushroom Ninja
2008-07-05, 09:01 PM
Or, as a jedi, you could take several levels of scout (7ish? I've not got my book handy) to pick up Uncanny doge.

Talya
2008-07-05, 09:10 PM
Or, as a jedi, you could take several levels of scout (7ish? I've not got my book handy) to pick up Uncanny doge.

Five, to pick up accute senses and improved initiative first. Not a bad idea, overall, mind you.

Hurlbut
2008-07-05, 09:56 PM
Regarding Deflect, that only works against energy based personal firearms. Use flamethrower, grenades, or missiles, any of those can make it difficult for the jedi.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-07-06, 02:07 AM
The Armored jedi route is likely worth it if you're going all out reflex defense, as it's less feat/talent intensive. Start as a force sensitive soldier, then multiclass into jedi. End up taking a bunch of useful armor talents (which the Jedi Knight PrC can take, btw.)

Of course, I'd just like to say that it's a strength of the system that 'normals' can at least go toe to toe with a jedi balance-wise, but playing a jedi still feels like playing a jedi.

evil
2008-07-06, 02:50 AM
Wow, I think I may be the only person on earth who doesn't like Saga. I absolutely hated the starship combat rules (I mean come on... Starships can move 4x their speed in a full run?).

No weapon or equipment modification rules? It's always seemed to me that the technology in Star Wars should have as much character as the heroes themselves.

The Talents were decent but not woohoo worthy. The Prestige classes were annoyingly bland.

I dunno. Maybe it's just me. But I really dug RCR and am actually switching my current Saga game to RCR.

Talya
2008-07-06, 09:23 AM
No weapon or equipment modification rules?

Uh. Tech Specialist feat?

ArmorArmadillo
2008-07-06, 03:38 PM
Wow, I think I may be the only person on earth who doesn't like Saga. I absolutely hated the starship combat rules (I mean come on... Starships can move 4x their speed in a full run?).
What is wrong with this exactly? I hit the accelerator and move faster.


The Talents were decent but not woohoo worthy. The Prestige classes were annoyingly bland.Ten talents over the course of your career become woohoo, people often fault them because they expect them to be 3.5 feats, when they aren't meant to be.