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olelia
2008-07-03, 09:57 PM
On a pure core 1v1 basis..1v1 being pros and cons how does the normal fighter stand to a Psychicwarrior? What are some good things a Psychic Warrior can do?

Chronicled
2008-07-03, 10:04 PM
Psychic Warrior isn't core, although it's in the SRD. It's better than the Fighter in almost every situation.

The most common tricks are The King of Smack (each time your opponent hits you, you hit them back with really big claws and heal half the damage you deal), and lockdown/trip builds that use Expansion to get quite quite big. You can do all sorts of things, though, with the flexibility that all those powers and feats give you.

Devin
2008-07-03, 10:04 PM
Please don't get mad, but I have an overwhelming urge to correct your spelling of "psychic". As for the actual topic, I believe the main draw of Psychic Warriors is that they can self-buff and then head on out into battle. They're probably more powerful than Fighters.

monty
2008-07-03, 10:05 PM
I assume you mean the Psychic Warrior. Edit: Ninja-ed.

{table]Quality | Fighter | Psychic Warrior
- | - | -
BAB | Full | 3/4
Saves | Good Fort | Good Fort
HD | d10 | d8
Class features | 11 feats | 8 feats, Psionics.[/table]

So, by 20th level, the fighter has 3 more feats, 5 more BAB, and an average of 1 HP more per level. The psychic warrior has psionics. Psychic warrior wins.

Chronicled
2008-07-03, 10:08 PM
I assume you mean the Psychic Warrior. Edit: Ninja-ed.

{table]Quality | Fighter | Psychic Warrior
- | - | -
BAB | Full | Full
Saves | Good Fort | Good Fort
HD | d10 | d8
Class features | 11 feats | 8 feats, Psionics.[/table]

So, by 20th level, the fighter has 3 more feats and an average of 1 HP more per level. The psychic warrior has psionics. Psychic warrior wins.

The Psychic Warrior actually has only medium BAB. Common mistake.

monty
2008-07-03, 10:09 PM
That's what I get for glancing over the SRD. Still wins, though.

Sucrose
2008-07-03, 10:13 PM
First, the obvious: Fighters have better base attack bonuses than Psychic Warriors; they also get more feats (though not all that many more.) Their hit dice are better, and they tend to be less multiple-attribute dependent (barring archery builds).

Psychic Warriors, however, tend to be able to get much better at any given schtick than Fighters. Not only do they get access to the same kinds of feats as Fighters, but they also have psionic abilities that can improve their abilities in various combat techniques immensely, such as Expansion (self-sufficiency for buffing), Grip of Iron, Psionic Lion's Charge, and Skate.

Psychic Warriors can also do some limited healing, and debuffing, a la the Strength of My Enemy ability.

Psychic Warriors get more options, and so they are often more powerful.

As for specific schticks that a psychic warrior can do:
Charge-monkey: since you say core-only, they're inferior at that specific ability, but can do better damage with things like Dissolving Weapon. Were Complete Warrior and other splats allowed, the Fighter might've pulled ahead, since his superior BAB means that he can get the combos more quickly.

Trip-master: Psychic Warriors are superior: they can take the same feat as the Fighter, can increase their own size, and can get mobility powers to help them get into the best position.

Grappler: See Trip-master, + Grip of Iron

Mounted Combat: Not much of the Psychic Warrior's abilities are of that much use, so for that particular schtick, a Fighter might serve you better.

There's also the King of Smack, but I don't care to get into that.

In general, Psychic Warriors are about better than Fighters on the specific gimmicks that both can do, and I'd argue that the Psychic Warriors are able to pick up a few powers that allow them to have more versatility at the same time, making the psionic option superior.

Edit: uber-ninja'd

Chronicled
2008-07-03, 10:14 PM
That's what I get for glancing over the SRD. Still wins, though.

Yes it does.

Besides, Form of Doom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/formofDoom.htm) turns the Psychic Warrior's "win" into "awesome win."

tyckspoon
2008-07-03, 10:36 PM
Charge-monkey: since you say core-only, they're inferior at that specific ability, but can do better damage with things like Dissolving Weapon. Were Complete Warrior and other splats allowed, the Fighter might've pulled ahead, since his superior BAB means that he can get the combos more quickly.

Mounted Combat: Not much of the Psychic Warrior's abilities are of that much use, so for that particular schtick, a Fighter might serve you better.


Charging on foot in Core: Psionic Lion's Charge makes the Psychic Warrior better, IMO. There's no really good way to improve the damage of a single attack open to the Fighter that the PsyWar can't get just as easily, and the PsyWar has options to improve his own to-hit and damage (Offensive Prescience and Precognition, Expansion, other assorted weapon buffs..) that the Fighter can't match.

For mounted combat, I believe the best Core combatant is actually a Paladin Smiting things with a Spirited Charge. A PsyWar with enough power points can also do very well, however, by using the aforementioned Offensive buffs to boost his to-hit and his damage; using Spirited Charge converts every point gained from Prescience to 3 extra points, and Precognition adjusts to-hit to ensure the big hit or give extra cushion for Power Attacking.

Sucrose
2008-07-03, 10:58 PM
Charging on foot in Core: Psionic Lion's Charge makes the Psychic Warrior better, IMO. There's no really good way to improve the damage of a single attack open to the Fighter that the PsyWar can't get just as easily, and the PsyWar has options to improve his own to-hit and damage (Offensive Prescience and Precognition, Expansion, other assorted weapon buffs..) that the Fighter can't match.

For mounted combat, I believe the best Core combatant is actually a Paladin Smiting things with a Spirited Charge. A PsyWar with enough power points can also do very well, however, by using the aforementioned Offensive buffs to boost his to-hit and his damage; using Spirited Charge converts every point gained from Prescience to 3 extra points, and Precognition adjusts to-hit to ensure the big hit or give extra cushion for Power Attacking.
Point taken on the first, and I agree that Paladin is the best charger, but the OP was asking for Fighter vs. PsyWar, and nothing more. I've personally never taken Precognition or Prescience, because they burn through your PP so bloody quickly, and PsyWars really don't get that many.

Chronicled
2008-07-03, 11:53 PM
Point taken on the first, and I agree that Paladin is the best charger, but the OP was asking for Fighter vs. PsyWar, and nothing more. I've personally never taken Precognition or Prescience, because they burn through your PP so bloody quickly, and PsyWars really don't get that many.

Nor do they get that many powers known. You have to be even pickier than when choosing a Sorcerer's spells :smallyuk:.

Draz74
2008-07-04, 12:09 AM
The greatest skill in optimizing a SRD-only Psychic Warrior is judicious cherry-picking with the Expanded Knowledge feat, to pick up the juiciest Psion powers that the Psychic Warrior normally wouldn't get access to. The most popular of these are Metamorphosis and Schism, though several others are awfully tempting too (e.g. Psionic Fly, Energy Missile, Psionic Teleport, Astral Construct).

Also note the Slayer PrC. Suddenly, the Psychic Warrior can have almost as good BAB as the Fighter (BAB +16 or +17 at Level 20). He also gets much better mental defenses than the Fighter will ever dream of, a handful of extra skill points that can be spent on useful new class skills like Listen and Spot, and a couple of other minor special abilities. On the other hand, all these perks do have a cost: 4 or 5 feats (included the possibly-"wasted" Track prerequisite), a couple points of Fortitude save, and a manifester level.

Hmmm ... anyone wanna homebrew an actual Physic Warrior? "I retaliate the Dragon's mighty blow with a recitation of Newton's Third Law ..."

Waspinator
2008-07-04, 12:09 AM
Pyschic Warrior. Of course, there's not many classes that the Fighter would beat in a straight "who is better if both optimize well" contest.

Basically, you get enough of the Fighter's combat ability that the gap is easily closed via the stuff you can do with the powers you get. Also, using the Expanded Knowledge feat to grab Energy Missile or Astral Construct from the Psion power list makes you just plain mean.

Oh, and I'd say that the Psychic Warrior also makes a good Physic Warrior. :smallbiggrin: Just jump at people and turn into a giant while falling! "I eat momentum for breakfast!"

Draz74
2008-07-04, 12:18 AM
Pyschic Warrior. Of course, there's not many classes that the Fighter would beat in a straight "who is better if both optimize well" contest.

Actually, that's not necessarily true. The Fighter is considered a weak class because it has so much potential to suck if it's not optimized. If it is optimized, it's actually very powerful. Not "top tier," certainly, but able to hold its own with powerful things like the Warblade. (On the other hand, a not-optimized Warblade can beat a not-optimized Fighter so easily it's not even funny.)

Of course, the OP was asking about Core-Only, and it's pretty impossible to optimize a Fighter without splatbook feats. Also, Fighters who are so optimized that they are actually powerful tend to be boring one-trick ponies like the Ubercharger. So Psychic Warrior still wins the "which class is better" contest, easily. :smallbiggrin:


Also, using the Expanded Knowledge feat to grab Energy Missile or Astral Construct from the Psion power list makes you just plain mean.
It's not as bad as it sounds, just because the PW just plain runs out of PP quickly if he uses them much. :smallfrown:


Oh, and I'd say that the Psychic Warrior also makes a good Physic Warrior. :smallbiggrin: Just jump at people and turn into a giant while falling! "I eat momentum for breakfast!"

Certainly goes well with the Immovability and Inertial Barrier powers' fluff.

Killersquid
2008-07-04, 12:37 AM
Yes it does.

Besides, Form of Doom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/formofDoom.htm) turns the Psychic Warrior's "win" into "awesome win."

...Wow I gotta get the Psionics Handbook. That is epic win of epic proportions.

Leicontis
2008-07-04, 12:39 AM
Mustn't forget the ridiculous AC monster - use Expanded Knowledge to pick up Inertial Armor and Force Screen, crank those with a Defensive Precognition, and you're already damn near impossible to hit. Now add a Monk's Belt, and your AC goes up by 1 + your casting stat. If you're totally AC-obsessed and don't care about sucking on melee attacks, follow this up with a Compression, for yummy size bonuses to AC.

Draz74
2008-07-04, 12:45 AM
...Wow I gotta get the Psionics Handbook. That is epic win of epic proportions.
Always nice to see a new convert. :smallcool:


Mustn't forget the ridiculous AC monster - use Expanded Knowledge to pick up Inertial Armor and Force Screen, crank those with a Defensive Precognition, and you're already damn near impossible to hit. Now add a Monk's Belt, and your AC goes up by 1 + your casting stat. If you're totally AC-obsessed and don't care about sucking on melee attacks, follow this up with a Compression, for yummy size bonuses to AC.

First, you don't need to spend feats to pick up any of those powers -- you have them all on your list anyway!

Second, as long as we're talking about AC monsters (and just not worrying about running out of PP), don't forget to add in Thicken Skin and Mental Barrier, adding Natural Armor and Deflection to the list of bonus types.

Third, if you don't care about the WIS-to-AC element, you can drop the Monk's Belt and instead get Padded Armor +1 with a bunch of special abilities (e.g. Heavy Fortification) on it. Nice.

Chronos
2008-07-04, 12:51 AM
I specifically opened up this thread because I was hoping to see something with favored enemy: Catgirls. I've gotta say, I'm a bit disappointed.

But psychic warriors still fall only slightly short of psychic rogues on the coolness scale, so only a bit.

Chronicled
2008-07-04, 12:57 AM
...Wow I gotta get the Psionics Handbook. That is epic win of epic proportions.

That is psionics.


Also note the Slayer PrC. Suddenly, the Psychic Warrior can have almost as good BAB as the Fighter (BAB +16 or +17 at Level 20). He also gets much better mental defenses than the Fighter will ever dream of, a handful of extra skill points that can be spent on useful new class skills like Listen and Spot, and a couple of other minor special abilities. On the other hand, all these perks do have a cost: 4 or 5 feats (included the possibly-"wasted" Track prerequisite), a couple points of Fortitude save, and a manifester level.

I think the general consensus on the WotC CharOP boards is that Psion is the better manifesting entry for Slayer. That said, Slayer for the Psychic Warrior is interesting because there's almost a 50/50 split between whether taking it is better or worse for the Psychic Warrior (and either way it'd be by a slim margin). I'm with the crowd that thinks Psychic Warrior is improved by Slayer.

Draz74
2008-07-04, 01:03 AM
That is psionics.
Although I have to admit, I can't fully recommend buying the XPH, since so much of it is free online anyway. :smallconfused:


I think the general consensus on the WotC CharOP boards is that Psion is the better manifesting entry for Slayer.
Well, sure. Psion is a more powerful class, there's not much to argue about there. Psion is probably the sixth most powerful base class in the game (after CoDzilla, Wiz, Archivist, Artificer).


That said, Slayer for the Psychic Warrior is interesting because there's almost a 50/50 split between whether taking it is better or worse for the Psychic Warrior (and either way it'd be by a slim margin). I'm with the crowd that thinks Psychic Warrior is improved by Slayer.
I agree -- except on builds that don't need BAB so much, because they use Natural Attacks. Like SRD-only King of Smack-wannabes. Those should probably stick with Psychic Warrior all the way.

To me, a tougher debate is whether a Psychic Warrior/Slayer should start out by dipping a level of Ranger in order to qualify for the PrC more easily. (And my answer is usually "yes," because I love having lots of skill points at Level 1.)

Curmudgeon
2008-07-04, 08:26 AM
You people are confusing physics (the study of matter, energy, motion, and force) with physic, an antiquated term for medicine.

I originally though the OP was referring to some sort of shaman -- i.e., a medicine man combatant.

Eldariel
2008-07-04, 08:46 AM
Seeing that Core Fighter sucks right down there with Monk and Soulknife, it isn't really complicated mathematics to figure out which wins. It doesn't hurt that Psychic Warrior is actually a decent class with SRD only on its own right. Now, if we go with all 3.5 sources, it's much closer as Fighter's immense feats are actually usable and Fighter has a bunch of bombtastic ACFs (Dungeon Crasher, Overpowering Attack, Resolute, etc.) and more use for the BAB (charger, for example).

Exception in Core-Only; a Fighter is going to be able to defeat Psychic Warrior on the first few levels. 1-2 and maybe 3, I don't know beyond that. The reason is, on those levels Psychic Warrior's manifesting abilities are so limited that they don't count for much in the grand scheme of things and the Fighter's extra hit die and BAB are going to be very beneficial for throwing the math off.

kamikasei
2008-07-04, 08:52 AM
You people are confusing physics (the study of matter, energy, motion, and force) with physic, an antiquated term for medicine.

I originally though the OP was referring to some sort of shaman -- i.e., a medicine man combatant.

"The only cure for your condition is bloodletting! Nye heh heh!"

Chronos
2008-07-04, 12:59 PM
"The only cure for your condition is bloodletting! Nye heh heh!"[hijack]Believe it or not, there are actually some conditions for which the standard treatment, even today, is bloodletting. It's not used for any of the same things it was used for a few centuries ago, though.

Waspinator
2008-07-04, 11:47 PM
It's not as bad as it sounds, just because the PW just plain runs out of PP quickly if he uses them much. :smallfrown:

True, but Astral Construct is good even in small doses. If nothing else, it's a good utility power since you can have a base-level construct open doors and check for traps and whatnot for you.

Draz74
2008-07-05, 02:54 AM
True, but Astral Construct is good even in small doses. If nothing else, it's a good utility power since you can have a base-level construct open doors and check for traps and whatnot for you.

Which is why I still put it on the list of "tempting" options.

To segue to a slightly different topic ... what happens if you try to Ride an Astral Construct? Because I've thought a few times about using Psychic Warrior to make a mounted combatant ...

Talic
2008-07-05, 04:18 AM
Psychic warrior mounted combatants would be best with the trip build, for getting places, and whacking. Problem is, the size boost that's so good for the class isn't shared with mount, unless it's also a paladin mount and you have psionics/magic transparency.

Charge build, I suppose could work, as psionic lion's charge could be used, depending on interpretation, with mounted charging...

Heck, one of the ones I toyed with was a centaur with 2 light lances and psionic lion's charge (two weapon fighting, and imp two weapon fighting), mounted by a human with 2 lances and dual strike (2 weapon fighting), and human with levels in cavalier (centaur as well, at high levels).

Human gets 2 uber lance hits on a charge, Centaur gets 3-4. translation: Paste most things in one charge. Sometimes two, if they're close.

Plus, if both have psywar, both can expansion themselves, and then it gets really silly, as a gargantuan centaur and a huge human rider charge through with reach. goliath rider makes all weapons huge.

Project_Mayhem
2008-07-05, 06:16 AM
Is the Psychic Warrior/ Ninja, two-weapon fighting, Psionic Lion's charging, Sudden Striking build any good?