d20 Modern - Revised Gambling Mechanic (poker)

[j0lt]

Has anybody else found that the Gamble skill makes gambling incredibly over-simplified and anti-climactic? In a movie like Casino Royale or Maverick, the gambling scenes are filled with tension and several actions take place in each.
With all the wonderful skills that fit perfectly with gambling (bluff & sense motive have obvious uses, sleight of hand & spot would be great for someone trying to pull an ace from his sleeve), it's a waste that the designers opted for a single opposed skill check.

I plan on replacing the existing gambling mechanic with a mechanic similar in nature to combat - run in rounds.
The only thing I'm having trouble with is the mechanic of determining hands.
I'm thinking of going with a random table with 10 possible hands (including nothing), and incorporating successive rolls to improve the hand (reflecting the drawing of new cards).
I probably won't use the Wealth mechanic for the purposes of gambling, as wealth is an abstract concept, wheras Gambling is for specific amounts.

Revised Gambling Mechanic
Problem: The Gamble skill oversimplifies the process of gambling by reducing it to a single opposed skill check. In a game that is often described as being one of “cinematic action”, the current gambling mechanic is simply anti-climactic.

Solution: Devise a new mechanic that fits with the d20 System that allows for a more involved process of gambling without making it too complicated. The new gambling mechanic will be similar to the combat mechanic in that gambling will be organized in rounds.

In the first round, all participants roll 1d20 with no modifiers. This determines the opening hand.

Table G-1: Opening Hand


Roll Hand
(1-4) High Card
(5-7) One Pair
(8-10) Two Pair
(11-12) Three of a Kind
(13-14) Straight
(15-16) Flush
17 Full House
18 Four of a Kind
19 Straight Flush
20 Royal Flush


In the betting round, there are three options:
- Call (meet the current bet and all players must show their hands)
- Raise (add money to the pot)
- Fold (give up on the hand)

After the initial betting round, you may draw new cards to improve your hand by rolling a Gamble check. Beating various DCs will improve your hand.

If you roll a Natural 1 you reveal by your obvious reaction what sort of hand you have, giving your opponents a +4 bonus to their next gamble check. If you roll under 10 your hand doesn’t improve. In addition, if your opening hand is a Straight or higher, rolling under 10 on your gamble check will reduce your hand to the High Card hand (essentially worthless).

You can also cheat by bringing a hidden card into play. Roll a Sleight of Hand check opposed by Spot checks by everyone playing or watching the game. Successfully cheating gives you a one-time +10 bonus to your Gamble check.

Hands can only be upgraded in certain ways, depending on the opening hand:

Table G-2: Gamble DCs


Opening Hand Pair 2 Pair 3.Kind Strt Flush F.House 4.Kind S.Flush R.Flush
High Card 10 14 18 22 26 30 34 38 42
One Pair - 10 14 - - 26 30 38 42
Two Pair - - - - - 22 - - -
3 of a Kind - - - - - 18 22 - -


I haven't included upgrades starting from Flush and up, because if your starting hand is a Straight or higher, you probably won't be drawing different cards as the likelyhood of ruining your hand is far greater.

The final betting round works the same way as the first betting round, and continues until the Showdown.

In the showdown, all players must reveal their cards and the winner takes the pot.

Any comments, suggestions?

[Rappy]

I don't know much about Poker, but what I do know makes this look like a step in the right direction. I am of the "if it is too simple, make it more detailed", and I think you have done the correct thing in creating a gambling direction toward Poker. I might, however, suggest to note that this is only one use of the Gamble skill. Horse bets, pools, and other things also fall under the skill.

[Silence]

Wouldn't it be better just to actually play poker? I mean, then it's perfect.

[j0lt]

I don't know much about Poker, but what I do know makes this look like a step in the right direction. I am of the "if it is too simple, make it more detailed", and I think you have done the correct thing in creating a gambling direction toward Poker. I might, however, suggest to note that this is only one use of the Gamble skill. Horse bets, pools, and other things also fall under the skill.

Thanks! Yeah, I actually designed this originally with movies like Maverick and Casino Royale in mind, where the focus is specifically on poker. I once figured out a dice-equivalent to blackjack, I'll try and dig up my notes. For games of pure chance, the simple opposed roll mechanic works fine, though IMO is still rather anti-climactic.


Wouldn't it be better just to actually play poker? I mean, then it's perfect.

heh, yes... That would be a perfect representation of poker, however, it doesn't take your CHARACTER's skills into account. This does.
To add some realia, you could write the names of various hands on card-sized pieces of paper and pass them out without announcing who got what to add the player-vs-player tension. Props are always great! :)

[Debihuman]

I see a couple of problems. The first, how do you keep this a "secret" so that betting can take place? If only one PC is playing, it's not a problem obviously because he's rolling against the DM. However, it becomes more complicated is several PCs are at the table so to speak. How do you keep the game from becoming a one roll games where no betting takes place at all?

Frankly, I'd rather use poker dice and you can find the rules here: http://www.farscapegames.co.uk/shopscr736.html

The second is that when you have 3 of a kind and you roll a natural 1, you either wind up with 1 pair how do you end up with either one pair or two pair? That makes no sense. Even if you roll a 1, you still have 3 of a kind (they may be low cards that makes sense).

The same with 2 pair. It's not like you lose a card during the game. (Again you may have low cards).

If you are gambling and roll a 1, everyone should be able to figure out what hand you have and thus, gets a +4 bonus to their hand! That makes more sense. [A natural 1 while gambling isn't a fumble where things get worse for you but a chance where the opposition gets a bonus].



Debby

[j0lt]

I see a couple of problems. The first, how do you keep this a "secret" so that betting can take place? If only one PC is playing, it's not a problem obviously because he's rolling against the DM. However, it becomes more complicated is several PCs are at the table so to speak. How do you keep the game from becoming a one roll games where no betting takes place at all?

That's an easy thing to take care of. You have each player make their roll secretly in front of the GM, that way, they don't know what the others have.


Frankly, I'd rather use poker dice and you can find the rules here: http://www.farscapegames.co.uk/shopscr736.html

See my response to Silence's similar idea above. How does this take into account a character with a high Gamble skill modifier?


The second is that when you have 3 of a kind and you roll a natural 1, you either wind up with 1 pair how do you end up with either one pair or two pair? That makes no sense. Even if you roll a 1, you still have 3 of a kind (they may be low cards that makes sense).

The same with 2 pair. It's not like you lose a card during the game. (Again you may have low cards).

If you are gambling and roll a 1, everyone should be able to figure out what hand you have and thus, gets a +4 bonus to their hand! That makes more sense. [A natural 1 while gambling isn't a fumble where things get worse for you but a chance where the opposition gets a bonus].


My original idea for the mechanic was to rule that rolling a natural 1 would cause you to make a bad draw, either by dropping cards that you should have kept, or just bad luck. I like your idea though, I think I'll incorporate it, thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Silence]

From a roleplaying perspective, I would perfer just to scrap the skill, let them use the ranks for something else, and just play poker. A good GM should be able to play for up to three people , so you should be fine.

[Debihuman]

The thing with Poker and skill is that the skill isn't in just the cards but in the actual betting. It's knowing the odds, knowing when to lay down your hand even when you've got a decent hand because you suspect your opponent has a better one. How to tell when someone is bluffing, etc. Even the best players don't always win because ultimately it still boils down odds and trusting your gut. But the biggest thing in poker is the odds. The player with the best skill can figure out the odds better than other players. I'm not sure how you would actually roll for this. And sometimes the odds can be completely wrong because the cards are still random. You'll win most often with a pair of aces, but you can still be beat by a trio of dueces.

Debby

[Silence]

What I'm proposing is to actually pull out a deck, give everyone chips, and go for it.

Yes, if you're trying to play a character that's a professional poker player, this is detrimental to you, but it's simply more fun and immersive. If poker was more fun D20 style, then there wouldn't even be card decks in production now.

[j0lt]

*sigh* We're not talking about playing poker, we're talking about the CHARACTERS playing poker IN GAME.


If poker was more fun D20 style, then there wouldn't even be card decks in production now.

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

[Silence]

The point of D&D is to roleplay characters.

If your characters are playing poker, then the best way to roleplay that is by playing poker.

I have made my point clear. I shall make no further posts on this thread unless you infuriate me to the point that I need to return.

{Scrubbed}

[mikeejimbo]

When I first saw the title of this post I thought "Hey cool. I should get around to reading that. I don't want to know though, it might be long and involved and such."

I finally decided to read it though, and I was pleasantly surprised. It's much more involved than the default option, but still quite simple!

There are only two things I see wrong with it, and one may not be a problem.

The first (the one that may not be a problem) is that this means people with higher gambling skills are inherently luckier than others. They actually get better cards when drawing them? This isn't realistic - but it's highly cinematic, so if that's what you're going for I say more power to you!

The other thing - shouldn't there be a bunch of rolls of bluff vs. sense motive during the betting rounds that you would have to model?

[j0lt]

The point of D&D is to roleplay characters.

If you bothered to read the thread title, this is for d20 Modern, but that's beside the point.


If your characters are playing poker, then the best way to roleplay that is by playing poker.

No, that's playing poker. Roleplaying is PRETENDING to play poker through a fictional character.


I have made my point clear. I shall make no further posts on this thread unless you infuriate me to the point that I need to return.

{scrubbed}.
{Scrubbed}

When I first saw the title of this post I thought "Hey cool. I should get around to reading that. I don't want to know though, it might be long and involved and such."

I finally decided to read it though, and I was pleasantly surprised. It's much more involved than the default option, but still quite simple!

There are only two things I see wrong with it, and one may not be a problem.

Thanks for reading! :smallbiggrin:


The first (the one that may not be a problem) is that this means people with higher gambling skills are inherently luckier than others. They actually get better cards when drawing them? This isn't realistic - but it's highly cinematic, so if that's what you're going for I say more power to you!

Yeah, it's hard to find that sweet spot between realistic and cinematic. The d20 System seems geared more towards cinematic though, and besides, if realism were that much more fun than cinematic action, we might be playing something like d20 Housework. :smalltongue:

To try and avoid the insta-win of having max ranks in Gamble, I at least put a little randomness in it by making the initial draw a straight-up unmodified d20 roll. Beyond that, it's all calculation, strategy, and educated guesswork. In that respect, all draws beyond the first take skill at the game into account. Is it perfect? Of course not, but it works well enough without being overcomplicated, IMO.


The other thing - shouldn't there be a bunch of rolls of bluff vs. sense motive during the betting rounds that you would have to model?
Yeah, I didn't really spell those out in detail, but those actions come in during the betting rounds. I suppose I should add those in, thanks for catching that.

Edit: gotta work out the mechanic for those a bit... More to come!

[Don the Bastard]

I believe your system is still over simplified and does not reflect the true probability of getting a specific hand, for you are 32,000 times more likely to be dealt a royal flush in your system than in real life, I suggest the following slightly more realistic, if perhaps somewhat more complicated option.


THE PROBABILITY OF BEING DEALT SPECIFIC HANDS BEFORE THE DRAW IN 5 CARD STUD (52-card deck - without Joker)

{table]Hand... |Odds...
Straight Flush |64,973 to 1
Four-of-a-kind |4,164 to 1
Full House |693 to 1
Flush |508 to 1
Straight |254 to 1
Three-of-a-kind |46.3 to 1
Two-Pair |20.0 to 1
Pair of A,K,Q,J |6.69 to 1
Pair of 10's - 2's |2.42 to 1
[/table]
(I play poker a lot) So my suggestion, to "semi-accurately" show the odds in a game of cards, using dice instead of actual cards, would be as follows

Roll D60000 (that is a d6-1, and 4d10's, thousands, hundreds, tens & units)
0-22200 = High card (roll d8+6 to determine high card 7-10 obvious, 11=J, 12=Q, 13=K, 14=A)
22201-55200 = Pair (roll 1d6+1d8 to determine pair value, 2-10 obvious 11=J, 12=Q, 13=K, 14=A.)
55201-58200 = 2 pair (roll 1d6+1d8 twice to determine pair values, 2-10 obvious 11=J, 12=Q, 13=K, 14=A, reroll second if same as first.)
58201-59534 = Three of a kind (roll 1d6+1d8 to determine trips value, 2-10 obvious 11=J, 12=Q, 13=K, 14=A.)
59535-59775 = Straight (d10 to determine lowest cards in the straight)
59776-59896= Flush (roll d4 for suit 1=C, 2=D, 3=H & 4=S)
59897 -59982 = Full House (roll 1d6+1d8 twice to determine values, firsst is trips, second is pair 2-10 obvious 11=J, 12=Q, 13=K, 14=A, reroll second if same as first.)
59983-59998 = Four of a Kind (roll 1d6+1d8 to determine value, 2-10 obvious 11=J, 12=Q, 13=K, 14=A.)
59999 = Straight Flush (roll d10 to determine lowest card in straight flush and a d4 to determine suit 1=C, 2=D, 3=H & 4=S)

Drawing cards:
a player may choose to draw between 0 and 3 cards, they may draw cautiously or dangerously, a cautious draw allows player to store a hand {pair, 2pr or trips} and roll on the following tables to improve, a dangerous draw does not allow a player to store cards but uses the same table as above and is just an open re-roll.

1pr (d400, d4-1 and 2d10s, tens and units)
399 - Quads
393-398 - Full house (roll as above for new pair)
335 - 392 - Trips
174 - 334 - 2 pair (roll as above for new pair)
0 - 173 - no help

2pr (d20)
18 - 20 - Full House
1-17 No help

trips (d20)
20 - Quads
18-19 - Full House
1-17 - No help

Now to address Bluff and Sense motive. You can bluff in poker by appearing weak when you are strong or strong when you are weak, obviously, so here are my bluffing rules.

Roll opposed bluff vs. sense motive: Subtract Bluff from Sense Motive roll and look up the value.

- 11+ - opponent knows exactly what you are holding, in addition they may make an immediate bluff against you with a +5 circumstance bonus, and you recieve a +2 circumstance bonus to sense motive against this opponent for the remainder of the game (important tell).
-6 to -10 - opponent reads you like a magazine with glossy pictures, they know exactly what you have.
-1 to -5 - opponent knows roughly what you have, if you are weak (2 prs down) or strong (trips up)
0 to 4 - neither player benefits
5 to 9 - you may appear to your opponent, as having a hand one rank above or below what you actually hold, your choice.
10 to 14 - you may appear to your opponent, as having a hand two ranks above or below what you actually hold, your choice.
15+ - you may appear to your opponent, as having any hand rank, your choice, and you recieve a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff against this opponent for the remainder of the game (mind games).

Cheating - There are 3 ways of cheating in poker, stacking the deck (hard but not impossible) peeking (only works on your deals) or swapping cards (again hard).

Stacking - Opposed Sleight vs. Spot (note each other player gets a roll)

-6+ - opponent knows exactly what you did, you will likely be lynched.
-1 to -5 - opponent saw you shuffling funny but you saw them see you and stopped (failed attempt, and opponent recieves a +4 on future spot rolls)
0 to 4 - you weren't spotted but couldn't quite work the cards right (failed attempt)
5 to 9 - you may re-roll your d6 and take the higher value.
10 to 14 - you may re-roll your d6 and take the higher value, and force another player to re-roll and take the lower one.
15+ - you may re-roll your d6 and take the higher value, and force 2 other players to re-roll theirs and take the lower one.

Peeking - Opposed Sleight -4 vs. Spot (note each other player gets a roll)

-6+ - opponent knows exactly what you did, you will likely be lynched.
-1 to -5 - opponent saw you twist the deck but you saw them see you and stopped (failed attempt, and opponent recieves a +4 on future spot rolls)
0 to 4 - you weren't spotted but couldn't see the cards right (failed attempt)
5 to 9 - you may re-roll your draw and keep the higher roll.
10 to 14 - you may re-roll your draw and keep the higher roll and a player of your choice must reveal their d6 and thousands d10.
15+ - you may re-roll your draw and keep the higher roll and two players of your choice must reveal their d6 and thousands d10.

Swapping - Opposed Sleight -6 vs. Spot (note each other player gets a roll)

-6+ - opponent knows exactly what you did, you will likely be lynched.
-1 to -5 - opponent saw you twist your hand but you saw them see you and stopped (failed attempt, and opponent recieves a +4 on future spot rolls)
0 to 4 - you weren't able to get the card out safely (failed attempt)
5 to 9 - you may add 10% to your re-roll draw number.
10 to 14 - you may add 30% to your re-roll draw number.
15+ - you may add 50% to your re-roll draw number.

I am not claiming this is perfect or simple either, just my thoughts on the matter.

Also on I side note I consider the Gambling skill to be more about knowledge of a games rules and odds and less about the practicals of the game.

[j0lt]

I believe your system is still over simplified and does not reflect the true probability of getting a specific hand, for you are 32,000 times more likely to be dealt a royal flush in your system than in real life, I suggest the following slightly more realistic, if perhaps somewhat more complicated option.

<snip>

I am not claiming this is perfect or simple either, just my thoughts on the matter.

Also on I side note I consider the Gambling skill to be more about knowledge of a games rules and odds and less about the practicals of the game.

:smalleek:
I don't know what to say... I'm trying to make a simple, fun mechanic to more closely capture the feel of a cinematic poker game. Where is the fun in this? Assuming you could find (or even lift) a SIXTY-THOUSAND SIDED DIE, would you actually try to play using these mechanics?

[Debihuman]

Well, it depends on whether your players would enjoy playing poker for a few hands or not. If not, then roll the dice and speed up the process. It doesn't have to be a great simulation, just one that works well enough to be fun and quick. I think using real life odds is a bit silly for a game-within-a-game. It certainly adds a level of needless complexity.

J0lt, I think your chart is good enough. Sure it's not going to be a realistic simulation of gambling but I don't think it needs to be. I say go with it and then tell us how it went.

Debby

[Don the Bastard]

a SIXTY-THOUSAND SIDED DIE, would you actually try to play using these mechanics?

I have to say a sixty-thousand sided die would be... awesome! But as I said above it is just a d6-1 and 4d10 (thousands, hundreds, tens & units). I also did mention that the rules I presented were not simple, but they are simpler than teaching the players the game, and more realistic than a 1 in 20 chance of a royal flush.

It is just a suggestion for a more realistic dice simulation of the odds of poker, take it or leave it.

Also I must say I do commend you for the fact that you are trying to add a dramatic sense to the gambling mechanic in d20 modern.

My gaming group actually got together through a local Texas Hold'em poker league, so we all know how to play anyway!


I think using real life odds is a bit silly for a game-within-a-game. It certainly adds a level of needless complexity.

I like needless complexity, it makes me think!!

[j0lt]

J0lt, I think your chart is good enough. Sure it's not going to be a realistic simulation of gambling but I don't think it needs to be. I say go with it and then tell us how it went.

Debby
If any of my players ever decides to be a gambler, I'll do that. :smallsmile:


I have to say a sixty-thousand sided die would be... awesome! But as I said above it is just a d6-1 and 4d10 (thousands, hundreds, tens & units).

lol... Yeah, you could do it with a series of die rolls, but it'd be interesting to roll a bowling ball-sized d60k, even if only for the sake of being able to say you had done so. :smallbiggrin:


I also did mention that the rules I presented were not simple, but they are simpler than teaching the players the game, and more realistic than a 1 in 20 chance of a royal flush.
It is just a suggestion for a more realistic dice simulation of the odds of poker, take it or leave it.

Yeah, a 1 in 20 chance of a royal flush is completely unrealistic, but when do you ever see the hero in a gambling scene in a movie get a crap deal (except when the deck is rigged)?


Also I must say I do commend you for the fact that you are trying to add a dramatic sense to the gambling mechanic in d20 modern.

Thanks, I became a rules tinkerer the moment I bought the book, it's nearly as fun to make house-rules or new content as it is to play!


My gaming group actually got together through a local Texas Hold'em poker league, so we all know how to play anyway!

Outside of penny-ante games with my brother and some friends at summer camp, I don't have much experience with poker. Most of my information for this mechanic came from checking out wikipedia and other online articles.