[4e] Multiclassing

[JellyPooga]

I recently picked up a copy of the brand new and shiny (to quote itself) 4e. PHB, mostly because I was feeling guilty about reading it in my local gaming store...

Anyhoos, the first thing I did when I got back home (as I imagine every rp-er in existence does upon getting home from buying a new game), was inevitably to create a character...

Looking through my miniatures collection, I decided to update an old 3.5 character I made (but never played) based on one of my favourite minis, who just so happened to be an Aasimar Paladin/Bard (I think he had some Rogue in there as well, but I forget...in fact, he may have been a Paladin/Rogue/Sorcerer...anyway, I digress).

Obviously, I had a problem in that neither Aasimars nor Bards exist as yet, so I settled for an Eladrin Paladin taking the Multiclass feats (and Multiclass substitute Paragon Path option) for Wizard (I was tempted to MC to Warlock, but I really wanted more utility than damage dealing from the spellcaster side). I was pretty happy with the results and theorised his progression all the way up to 30th and was surprised to find that he was a satisfactory character throughout his career.

Hmm, this is gettting waffly (mmmm...waffles...*drools*)...I think I'll put the above in spoiler-tags and get to the point...*puts spoilers in*...anyways, I really quite liked the Multiclass method and how it worked out for my Paladin(Wizard) , so I had a think about other Multiclasses and whether they're as satisfactory.

I came to the conclusion that most combinations just aren't worth it due to excess similarity between the two classes (e.g. Cleric(Paladin) - Paladin is marginally more martial, but the feats could be better spent elsewhere) or too little synergy between them (e.g. Warlord(Rogue) - AKA: Leader(Striker), AKA: Team Player(Lone Wolf), AKA: Yin(Yang), AKA...you get the point).

I was just wondering if anyone else had similar (or indeed contrary) opinions?

Oh and one other thing...I couldn't work out if taking one or more of the Multiclass Feats allowed you to qualify for one of the Paragon Paths from the class you're 'multiclassing' into (e.g. a Paladin with Wizard multiclass feats pursuing the Blood Mage, or indeed Archmage paths), without taking the Paragon Multiclassing option of just taking new powers from your 'multiclass'.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

I experienced something very similar when I translated my monk/paladin/"too many pretige classes:smallbiggrin:" character into 4rth ed. Surprise surprise he was now a fighter/kensei with a paladin power(s).

It works strangely well though as long as your willing to accept your class might not be called the same thing... just go for the flavor/concept of the original.

In any case if you want the paragon path for a class other than the one your starting with ala your paladin blood mage (ick by the way) you need to take 4 feats for it... the cross class feat (student of the whatever) and 1 each of the powerswap feats. The bonus being you get an extra skill (depending on class) and a perk for the initial feat, so it doesn't feel like wasting anything.

The nice thing is you get powers for a character of your level from the cross class, and can retrain/upgrade them just like you can your normal powers.

[Gralamin]

I recently picked up a copy of the brand new and shiny (to quote itself) 4e. PHB, mostly because I was feeling guilty about reading it in my local gaming store...

Anyhoos, the first thing I did when I got back home (as I imagine every rp-er in existence does upon getting home from buying a new game), was inevitably to create a character...

Looking through my miniatures collection, I decided to update an old 3.5 character I made (but never played) based on one of my favourite minis, who just so happened to be an Aasimar Paladin/Bard (I think he had some Rogue in there as well, but I forget...in fact, he may have been a Paladin/Rogue/Sorcerer...anyway, I digress).

Obviously, I had a problem in that neither Aasimars nor Bards exist as yet, so I settled for an Eladrin Paladin taking the Multiclass feats (and Multiclass substitute Paragon Path option) for Wizard (I was tempted to MC to Warlock, but I really wanted more utility than damage dealing from the spellcaster side). I was pretty happy with the results and theorised his progression all the way up to 30th and was surprised to find that he was a satisfactory character throughout his career.

Hmm, this is gettting waffly (mmmm...waffles...*drools*)...I think I'll put the above in spoiler-tags and get to the point...*puts spoilers in*...anyways, I really quite liked the Multiclass method and how it worked out for my Paladin(Wizard) , so I had a think about other Multiclasses and whether they're as satisfactory.

I came to the conclusion that most combinations just aren't worth it due to excess similarity between the two classes (e.g. Cleric(Paladin) - Paladin is marginally more martial, but the feats could be better spent elsewhere) or too little synergy between them (e.g. Warlord(Rogue) - AKA: Leader(Striker), AKA: Team Player(Lone Wolf), AKA: Yin(Yang), AKA...you get the point).
Warlord/Brutal Rogue actually isn't all that bad, aside from needing a high Dex, High Strength, and a High mental stat.


I was just wondering if anyone else had similar (or indeed contrary) opinions?

Oh and one other thing...I couldn't work out if taking one or more of the Multiclass Feats allowed you to qualify for one of the Paragon Paths from the class you're 'multiclassing' into (e.g. a Paladin with Wizard multiclass feats pursuing the Blood Mage, or indeed Archmage paths), without taking the Paragon Multiclassing option of just taking new powers from your 'multiclass'.


A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying for paragon paths.
This however also means you cannot take a ranger paragon path if you multiclass ranger, do to the additional prerequisites.



I experienced something very similar when I translated my monk/paladin/"too many pretige classes:smallbiggrin:" character into 4rth ed. Surprise surprise he was now a fighter/kensei with a paladin power(s).

It works strangely well though as long as your willing to accept your class might not be called the same thing... just go for the flavor/concept of the original.

In any case if you want the paragon path for a class other than the one your starting with ala your paladin blood mage (ick by the way) you need to take 4 feats for it... the cross class feat (student of the whatever) and 1 each of the powerswap feats. The bonus being you get an extra skill (depending on class) and a perk for the initial feat, so it doesn't feel like wasting anything.

The nice thing is you get powers for a character of your level from the cross class, and can retrain/upgrade them just like you can your normal powers.

Incorrect. You need to take the power swap feats if you want to replace your paragon path with pure multiclassing.

[Daracaex]

One thing I noticed is the stupidity of paragon multiclassing. You give up four feats and only get:

Training in a skill from the initial multiclass,
An ability from the initial multiclass (usually a gimped version of a class feature),
The ability to switch out a few powers (not add, but switch out.)

Then you give up your Paragon Path and only get a few powers over the course of the path that are less powerful than what you should have. No path features. Why on earth would you do this to your character? Even taking one of your other class's Paths is a better alternative. Does anyone have a balanced houserule to fix this issue?


Also, I would houserule that, upon taking the Ranger multiclass feat, you choose one of the fighting styles and are treated as being in that style for the purpose of qualifying for any requirement, such as the requirement on Ranger Paragon Paths.

[JellyPooga]

@ Daracaex: The point and benefit of Multiclassing (as far as I see it anyway), is that you're giving up speciality in favour of versatility...as practically everyone knows, D&D rewards specialisation more often than not and this is one example...however, using the Multiclass Paragon option allows you to have an almost 50/50 split of powers between your two classes (the exception being Utility powers, of which only 2/8 @Lvl 30 are of your second class). Due to retraining and power replacement, neither are those powers of significantly lower level than you would get anyway...in fact, from looking at the Paragon Path Powers, they are not of comparable power to other powers of their (approximate) level; possibly being about the same power as powers a couple of levels lower...

...which leaves the Paragon Path features and Feats to deal with. Taking the latter, Feats are not what they were in 3rd ed, most giving only minor benefits and being a lesser valued resource (you have 18 by lvl. 30)...giving up 4 is not really that big a deal (though I'll concede that it's giving up something for the privalige of multiclassing). On the subject of Paragon Path Features, yeah, it sucks that you don't get them, but as I see it, they are the real cost of that Multiclassing versatility I was talking about...

To give an example, I'll briefly run down the Paladin(Wizard) I mentioned in the OP...
At 1st level, he's a pretty standard Paladin with the ability (via Arcane Insight Feat) to use Thunderstrike as an encounter power. Throughout his Heroic Tier career, he slowly picks up some minor Wizard Powers to complement his Paladin ones, giving him a good mix of Melee from his Pally Powers (Invigorating Smite, Benign Transposition) and Ranged/Area from Wizard (Dispel Magic, Force Orb, Stinking Cloud).
Upon hitting 11th level he becomes much more a Mage than he was before, replacing his Valient Strike At-Will ability for Thunderstrike At-Will (replacing his Encounter Attack Thunderstike with Magic Missile). He also picks up Spectral Ram, which, combined with his Pally power Radiant Pulse makes him fairly fearsome at range. At this stage he can also deal Radiant, Poison, Thunder, Force and Basic damage (as opposed to just Radiant and Basic if he hadn't multiclassed), as well as having a lot of powers that shove people around. Through his Paragon Tier career he upgrades both Paladin and Mage Powers such that by the end of the Tier, he's toting 2 Level 19 Wizard Powers (Cloudkill and Disintegrate) and 2 Wizard Utility powers (Levels 6 and 10).
When he gets into Epic Tier, things really start getting interesting, because Wizard Powers really come into their own with things like Time Stop...by the time he hits Lvl 30, he's more a Mage than a Paladin really, able to command impressive Arcane and Divine Powers, deal a wide variety of damage types and use Holy Symbols, Staffs, Wands and Orbs as Implements...that's not even going into the other 14 Feats he has...

Now compare him to a Paladin that just goes into one of the Paragon Paths...Paragon Paladin gets a couple of fairly minor effects relating to Action Points (which as far as I understand you only get about 2-3 per day, as a high average) and some 'unique' Powers that are pretty similar in effect to the ones you can get anyway (i.e. Melee, Divine, Radiant and/or Healing are about all you get)...in short, you're a little (and we're talking small) bit more powerful, but quite a lot less versatile...

I'm not trying to say it's any better or worse to Multiclass or not, just that it's different and that I think the "cost" is quite probably justified...also consider that the powers you swap out with the Novice/Acolyte/Adept Power Feats can be changed every time you go up a level in addition to any retraining and/or other Power swaps you're allowed...so your second class Powers are not really any further behind in power than your primary class Powers.

Anyway, waffling again so I'll leave it there...

[TheOOB]

I've been working on a homebrew rules for multiclass paragon pathings. Right now they sit at:

Level 11 - get class skill and encounter power of class
Level 12 - get utility power of class
Level 16 - get At-will power of class
Level 20 - get daily power of class

and it has no prorequesites, allowing you to, in theory, triple multiclass.

[Daracaex]

*snip*

I'll give you all points but one: Lack of Paragon Path features is not a cost of the greater versatility. You can take the other class's Paragon Path and get the benefits of powers and features that increase versatility. Shouldn't the multiclassing version match it?

I'm not comfortable posting it here without permission, but Goober came up with a "fix" that is now posted in the homebrew section under a thread called, "Adapting 4e to playstyle: brainstorm, anyone? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84699)"

[Myatar_Panwar]

One thing I do-not understand about paragon multiclassing is that it specifically states that "You can select any power of 7th level or lower" ect. Meaning that you could never replace them. Because if you pretend that your taking the feat again when you level (like with the norm. multiclassing feats), A. Its not a feat, and B. It still says "You can select any power of 7th level or lower". So essentially, you are loosing not only class features, but are also gaining powers of lower levels than the ones the Paragon Path would offer?

Am I wrong? (please tell me Im wrong)

Edit: I cant see the posts in the edit page, but Im pretty sure someone mentioned a Paladin Bloodmage. Is this how you paragon multiclass? Just take a Paragon Path from a different class? Im very confused now. I thought that you just get more norm. class powers.... AHHH WHATS GOING ON!?

Another Edit: Oh I see, they are both two different options you can take. Im still very confused though, as to why you would choose no Paragon Path, when you could get your versitility from the other classes paragon path, WITH class features as well as appropriate level powers.

[The New Bruceski]

Another Edit: Oh I see, they are both two different options you can take. Im still very confused though, as to why you would choose no Paragon Path, when you could get your versitility from the other classes paragon path, WITH class features as well as appropriate level powers.

Some paragon path abilities depend on class abilities you do not have access to. For example Paladin paths that reference Diving Challenge. Also, while you may sacrifice pure power, choosing the base class to multiclass into gives more options. Rather than taking whatever the path gives you you can pick powers that may compliment your main class better.

[clericwithnogod]

One thing I do-not understand about paragon multiclassing is that it specifically states that "You can select any power of 7th level or lower" ect. Meaning that you could never replace them. Because if you pretend that your taking the feat again when you level (like with the norm. multiclassing feats), A. Its not a feat, and B. It still says "You can select any power of 7th level or lower". So essentially, you are loosing not only class features, but are also gaining powers of lower levels than the ones the Paragon Path would offer?

Am I wrong? (please tell me Im wrong)


You are wrong. At least according to this Customer Service response (from Joe, God of Customer Service)...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4323238&postcount=42

[Myatar_Panwar]

You are wrong. At least according to this Customer Service response (from Joe, God of Customer Service)...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4323238&postcount=42

:smile: This makes me very happy. Now it seems clear as to why you would might choose this path over the other.

[Dan_Hemmens]

It works strangely well though as long as your willing to accept your class might not be called the same thing... just go for the flavor/concept of the original.

It's really quite amazing how unwilling people are to accept this, however...

[Saph]

long snip detailing Paladin/Wizard multiclass build

The problem with this is that 80% of the multiclass options out there leave you with horrible MAD. Your Paladin/Wizard, for instance, needs Charisma, Strength, Wisdom (for his paladin abilities and for Thunderwave), Int (for his Wizard attacks), and maybe Con. About the only thing he can afford to dump is Dexterity.

You can get around this to some degree by cherry-picking your powers, but basically you're trying to square a circle. This wouldn't be such a big deal if you could boost your stats somehow a la 3.5, but since in 4e your abilitiy scores can only be boosted by levelling up, you're always going to be mediocre at at least some of your class abilities.

On top of that, multiclassing is slow (you have to wait till level 11 to see any major chance) and expensive (4 feats is okay to pay in the Heroic tier, but a big sacrifice once you hit Paragon).

I think pretty much every character can do well by taking the basic multiclass feat, but the system discourages you from going much further.

- Saph

[JellyPooga]

You're right about the MAD Saph and I suspect it's true of many Multiclass characters (but not all...e.g. a Paladin(Warlock) could get by happily with Charisma alone), but though I've yet to play, I suspect most of the focus of the system is what powers you have rather than what your stats are...sure you can get a +3 or 4 to hit/damage from the relevant stat, but when that's compared to the 4d6 damage you're rolling and the +8 to hit just from being level 16, not to mention the particulars of the Power itself and any buffs, etc., I just get the impression that they've taken away much of the importance of high stats (especially once you've hit Paragon Tier play...which is where Multiclassing also plays a much bigger part).

Hmm...just thoughts...

[Helgraf]

The problem with this is that 80% of the multiclass options out there leave you with horrible MAD. Your Paladin/Wizard, for instance, needs Charisma, Strength, Wisdom (for his paladin abilities and for Thunderwave), Int (for his Wizard attacks), and maybe Con. About the only thing he can afford to dump is Dexterity.

You can get around this to some degree by cherry-picking your powers, but basically you're trying to square a circle. This wouldn't be such a big deal if you could boost your stats somehow a la 3.5, but since in 4e your abilitiy scores can only be boosted by levelling up, you're always going to be mediocre at at least some of your class abilities.

On top of that, multiclassing is slow (you have to wait till level 11 to see any major chance) and expensive (4 feats is okay to pay in the Heroic tier, but a big sacrifice once you hit Paragon).

I think pretty much every character can do well by taking the basic multiclass feat, but the system discourages you from going much further.

- Saph

Well, since the Multiclass feat requirements are:
Level 4, Level 8, and Level 10 respectively, and not
Level 4+, Level 8+ and Level 10+, you never have to worry about making that big sacrifice at Paragon. You're either in at Heroic, or you ain't doing Paragon Path style multiclassing.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, since the Multiclass feat requirements are:
Level 4, Level 8, and Level 10 respectively, and not
Level 4+, Level 8+ and Level 10+, you never have to worry about making that big sacrifice at Paragon. You're either in at Heroic, or you ain't doing Paragon Path style multiclassing.

Heh. No, that means "at least level four", not "exactly level four". And so forth.

[JaxGaret]

You are wrong. At least according to this Customer Service response (from Joe, God of Customer Service)...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4323238&postcount=42

Oh, wow, that is great to hear. That makes paragon multiclassing make much more sense IMO... Thanks for that link!

@ Saph on the subject of MAD:

Of course it increases MAD. Multiclass characters are the generalists, whereas non-multiclasses are the specialists. If it's really a problem for you, homebrewing some X Stat to Y Bonus feats with multiclass prereqs may be a solution in your games to help balance it out.

[Helgraf]

Heh. No, that means "at least level four", not "exactly level four". And so forth.

Can you provide the rule text that actually proves that line of thought please?

I do not see "Level 4" as being the same as "Level 4+" and I refuse to presume that 3.x edition logic applies here given all the many ways it doesn't in most other 4th edition vs. 3.x edition comparisons.

[Indon]

Well, since the Multiclass feat requirements are:
Level 4, Level 8, and Level 10 respectively, and not
Level 4+, Level 8+ and Level 10+, you never have to worry about making that big sacrifice at Paragon. You're either in at Heroic, or you ain't doing Paragon Path style multiclassing.

I disagree with needing to get the feats at exact levels, but I agree that you clearly need all four feats by level 10, or else you won't have enough feats to qualify for the multiclassing paragon path at 11.

However, if I recall, can't feats be retrained? You're still losing out on potentially better feats, I think (don't remember how/if feat retraining works, or if it's just powers).

[Dan_Hemmens]

@ Saph on the subject of MAD:

Of course it increases MAD. Multiclass characters are the generalists, whereas non-multiclasses are the specialists. If it's really a problem for you, homebrewing some X Stat to Y Bonus feats with multiclass prereqs may be a solution in your games to help balance it out.

Further: I might be wrong about this (haven't started my 4E campaign yet) but MAD strikes me as being less of an issue in 4E, since instead of getting +1 to a single Ability score every four levels, you get +1 to two Ability scores at 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28, and +1 to all Ability scores at the 11 and 21. You basically have to cultivate at least two Abilities anyway.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Can you provide the rule text that actually proves that line of thought please?

I do not see "Level 4" as being the same as "Level 4+" and I refuse to presume that 3.x edition logic applies here given all the many ways it doesn't in most other 4th edition vs. 3.x edition comparisons.

While nowhere does it explicitly say that "Level 4" means "Level 4 or Higher" if it did not, then any feat with an Ability Score as a prerequisite would be next to impossible to obtain. You'd need, for example, Strength and Constitution scores of exactly 13 in order to qualify for Proficiency (Hide).

[DMfromTheAbyss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMfromTheAbyss

In any case if you want the paragon path for a class other than the one your starting with ala your paladin blood mage (ick by the way) you need to take 4 feats for it... the cross class feat (student of the whatever) and 1 each of the powerswap feats. The bonus being you get an extra skill (depending on class) and a perk for the initial feat, so it doesn't feel like wasting anything.

The nice thing is you get powers for a character of your level from the cross class, and can retrain/upgrade them just like you can your normal powers.

Incorrect. You need to take the power swap feats if you want to replace your paragon path with pure multiclassing.

I didn't say you'd be replacing your paragon path features with pure multiclassing... but it was my understanding you could take the paragon path features (here = blood mage) as a paladin, becouse you count as a wizard from having the prerequisite powers (powerswap and multiclass feat). So yes you wouldn't get the at wills and class features etc for wizard... but you would get the paragon path features for blood mage.

aka you would not be using the paragon path multiclassing option, you'd be using the "qualifies as a X class" to take a wizard paragon path as a paladin.

Maybe I misread the rules (currently away from book) but that was my understanding. Also when translating another character (a thief shadowdancer fighter) I ended up making him a ranger, giving him the Student of shadows... 3 powerswap feats and had him take the master infiltrator paragon path, I am reasonably sure this is legal, and it works really well for certain character concepts, so if it isn't legal maybe it should be...
(Mind you I'm not arguing it's optimal, but having a ranger who can hide in plain sight and go invisable is pretty cool.)

[Crow]

Further: I might be wrong about this (haven't started my 4E campaign yet) but MAD strikes me as being less of an issue in 4E, since instead of getting +1 to a single Ability score every four levels, you get +1 to two Ability scores at 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28, and +1 to all Ability scores at the 11 and 21. You basically have to cultivate at least two Abilities anyway.

MAD is a huge issue if your multiclass doesn't share the same primary ability score of your main class, because almost all of a character's powers relies upon attack bonus now. In a game where a +2 to hit is a big deal, you can't really afford to sacrifice attack bonus. The multiclass feats become a huge waste of resources if you pick up powers that aren't going to reliably hit.

[Kurald Galain]

The multiclass feats become a huge waste of resources if you pick up powers that aren't going to reliably hit.

Precisely.

I believe the best powers to pick up for multiclassing are the (rare) powers that don't require attack rolls, such as Dimension Door.

[Artanis]

Another good use is to get attacks that go after stuff that you can't usually target. For instance, a Ranger is stuck targetting AC with...well, with pretty much everything he has. That means that it's a lot harder for a Ranger to do his job (hurting things) when the enemy is in super-plate. But if he spends a feat or two to multiclass for something that attacks one of the other three defenses, it makes him much more capable of dealing with Big McLargeHuge the Uberarmored.



As an addendum, the Cleric actually looks like a decent multiclass choice for this to my (admittedly untrained) eye. The Ranger tends to have decent WIS anyways, and while the Cleric isn't exactly dripping in "WIS vs. NOT-AC" attacks, it only takes two or three for the Ranger to get what he wants in this regard.

[Gralamin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMfromTheAbyss

In any case if you want the paragon path for a class other than the one your starting with ala your paladin blood mage (ick by the way) you need to take 4 feats for it... the cross class feat (student of the whatever) and 1 each of the powerswap feats. The bonus being you get an extra skill (depending on class) and a perk for the initial feat, so it doesn't feel like wasting anything.

The nice thing is you get powers for a character of your level from the cross class, and can retrain/upgrade them just like you can your normal powers.

Incorrect. You need to take the power swap feats if you want to replace your paragon path with pure multiclassing.

I didn't say you'd be replacing your paragon path features with pure multiclassing... but it was my understanding you could take the paragon path features (here = blood mage) as a paladin, becouse you count as a wizard from having the prerequisite powers (powerswap and multiclass feat). So yes you wouldn't get the at wills and class features etc for wizard... but you would get the paragon path features for blood mage.

aka you would not be using the paragon path multiclassing option, you'd be using the "qualifies as a X class" to take a wizard paragon path as a paladin.

Maybe I misread the rules (currently away from book) but that was my understanding. Also when translating another character (a thief shadowdancer fighter) I ended up making him a ranger, giving him the Student of shadows... 3 powerswap feats and had him take the master infiltrator paragon path, I am reasonably sure this is legal, and it works really well for certain character concepts, so if it isn't legal maybe it should be...
(Mind you I'm not arguing it's optimal, but having a ranger who can hide in plain sight and go invisable is pretty cool.)

You only need the single multiclass feat to take another classes paragon paths.

[Saph]

Further: I might be wrong about this (haven't started my 4E campaign yet) but MAD strikes me as being less of an issue in 4E, since instead of getting +1 to a single Ability score every four levels, you get +1 to two Ability scores at 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28, and +1 to all Ability scores at the 11 and 21. You basically have to cultivate at least two Abilities anyway.

That doesn't help, because every class requires at least two abilities already (and usually has a tertiary ability as well). For instance, Pallies need Strength, Charisma, and also a bit of Wisdom. If you decide to pick up, say, Wizard, then now you have a fourth ability to boost, Intelligence.

The only real way to solve this is to build your entire character from the ground up around your multiclass choice - pick two ability scores which will power two classes, and build your character to take those. This is a lot of work for a fairly limited payoff.

- Saph

[Gavin Sage]

Well the real question of MAD is how much does not having maxed optimal stats actually effect gameplay? Does having less +1/+2's to hit take you out of the game entirely or just in comparasion to a min/max specialist.

And for that matter does multiclassing in 4e give you meaningful versatility that keeps up with the challenges posed? Since that was the problem with 3.5, being a Ftr10/Wiz10 meant you could be totally ineffective in two areas at once. So at least in my experience multiclassing was only for level dipping for something, or prestige classes. In 4e if I want my mage to pick up some cleric healing, does that healing come in useful (albeit not replacing a cleric, but lets assume a party larger then 4) or is it simply redundant/underpowered for no effect.

[Charity]

Paladins can dump Str or Cha in the same way that Warlocks can dump Con or Cha (though starpacts might lose out a bit by doing so) and it's the same for most the classes, you can get away with just two stats.
Paladins play nicely with warlocks (though there is no point anyone multiclassing into warlock paragon paths)
Rangers and clerics get along, as do Rangers and fighters or Fighters and clerics.
Warlords and wizards should get on, but I am still yet to get to grips with warlords.
I quite like the multiclassing in 4e it seems to be a difficult choice which these things should be...

[Crow]

Rangers are a bit of a special case because they can be one of two builds. It's almost like choosing a sub-class. Which way you go will determine what you can multiclass into effectively.

[DSCrankshaw]

Oh, wow, that is great to hear. That makes paragon multiclassing make much more sense IMO... Thanks for that link!
That does, indeed, change the game entirely. In light of this, paragon multiclassing makes a lot more sense.

Anyway, you do have to be careful not to overdo the MAD when choosing to multiclass, but you can often choose a class that has the same to-hit stat (this is the one you really need to max).

For example, Warlords and strength Paladins have the same to-hit stat (strength). Buff Strength, primarily, with a bit left over for Charisma and Wis. Taking warlord power feats makes a lot of sense for strength paladins anyway, as there are a few levels where there are no good strength based powers available.

Charisma paladins and warlocks (aka the Witch-Knight) do well. Buff Charisma primarily, with a rest to Wisdom and Con. Int might be useful, but you can probably avoid it.

Fighters and Warlords both use the same primary. The problem is that they don't share any secondaries (Int and Cha for the warlord, Wis and Con for fighter).

The bottom line is that MAD is bad for some combinations, but not for all of them.

EDIT: Bleh. Lots of typos in this post, hopefully fixed now.

[tbarrie]

While nowhere does it explicitly say that "Level 4" means "Level 4 or Higher" if it did not, then any feat with an Ability Score as a prerequisite would be next to impossible to obtain. You'd need, for example, Strength and Constitution scores of exactly 13 in order to qualify for Proficiency (Hide).

Also, just like in Third Edition, you can't use a feat if you cease to meet the prerequisites. If "Prerequisite: Level 4" meant exactly level 4, you would lose it as soon as you levelled up.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Another good use is to get attacks that go after stuff that you can't usually target. For instance, a Ranger is stuck targetting AC with...well, with pretty much everything he has. That means that it's a lot harder for a Ranger to do his job (hurting things) when the enemy is in super-plate. But if he spends a feat or two to multiclass for something that attacks one of the other three defenses, it makes him much more capable of dealing with Big McLargeHuge the Uberarmored.

:smalleek:
Do you know what is actually an optimal Ranger multiclass?

Wizard + TWF Style.

Think about it. He'll use Strength, Wisdom, and instead of Dex... Intelligence! This will give him three good scores for his Defensive Classes and, while he won't be so good at Initiative, he will have free access to an entire list of non-AC targeting attacks... including nice Close Blast/Burst attacks which he can safely fire off in the thick of battle.

Wow! And that sets you up nicely for Spiral Tower, with dual-wielding longswords that you can use as Implements :smallbiggrin:

What do you think?

[JaxGaret]

TWF Ranger/Wizard is quite cool. I love the multiclass options in 4e.

And it'll only get more interesting with the release of new classes :smallsmile:

[Bandededed]

:smalleek:
Do you know what is actually an optimal Ranger multiclass?

Wizard + TWF Style.

Think about it. He'll use Strength, Wisdom, and instead of Dex... Intelligence! This will give him three good scores for his Defensive Classes and, while he won't be so good at Initiative, he will have free access to an entire list of non-AC targeting attacks... including nice Close Blast/Burst attacks which he can safely fire off in the thick of battle.

Wow! And that sets you up nicely for Spiral Tower, with dual-wielding longswords that you can use as Implements :smallbiggrin:

What do you think?

I actually did that :smallbiggrin:. Well, I haven't hit paragon yet, but it's working really nice. Dash in, hit something, and if I get surrounded? - Thunderburst (or whatever it's called), and I'm no longer surrounded. Yes, I laugh at the game table. At least, til I'm surrounded again. Heh... oh... CLERIC!

[Oracle_Hunter]

I actually did that :smallbiggrin:. Well, I haven't hit paragon yet, but it's working really nice. Dash in, hit something, and if I get surrounded? - Thunderburst (or whatever it's called), and I'm no longer surrounded. Yes, I laugh at the game table. At least, til I'm surrounded again. Heh... oh... CLERIC!

Thunderwave is excellent to start with, but at 4th I'd say take Fire Shroud (PHB 161) for minion-killing might, Dimension Door at 8th (nothing says "hi, I'm here to kill you" like teleporting into their face), and Wall of Fire at 10th (for when you need a cozy hideaway).

Man, that might be the ultimate Gish... until we see the new Swordwizards that WotC insists on producing :smallyuk:

[serow]

:smalleek:
Do you know what is actually an optimal Ranger multiclass?

Wizard + TWF Style.

Think about it. He'll use Strength, Wisdom, and instead of Dex... Intelligence! This will give him three good scores for his Defensive Classes and, while he won't be so good at Initiative, he will have free access to an entire list of non-AC targeting attacks... including nice Close Blast/Burst attacks which he can safely fire off in the thick of battle.

Wow! And that sets you up nicely for Spiral Tower, with dual-wielding longswords that you can use as Implements :smallbiggrin:

What do you think?I like the idea, until I realise that it's reliant on entering a paragon path to finalise it. My problem is that it takes 10 whole levels of needing to enchant THREE things (2 weapons, 1 implement).

Since games in my place don't run that fast or consistently, needing to tide by 10 levels isn't that easy.

Stuff like the Str&Int Warlord/Wizard though, is probably more appealing to me. Use a quarterstaff and you're a gish-like from level 1.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I like the idea, until I realise that it's reliant on entering a paragon path to finalise it. My problem is that it takes 10 whole levels of needing to enchant THREE things (2 weapons, 1 implement).

Since games in my place don't run that fast or consistently, needing to tide by 10 levels isn't that easy.

Stuff like the Str&Int Warlord/Wizard though, is probably more appealing to me. Use a quarterstaff and you're a gish-like from level 1.

Oh no, Spiral Tower is just the icing on the cake. You honestly get extremely good defenses and some nice non-AC targeters that you can Quarry off of. Heck, a 1st Level TWF/Wizard would be pretty sweet. I'll stat one out, using the base stat array
Sergei Bearclaw, Tiefling Ranger (TWF)
STR 16
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 13

HP 24
AC (Hide + INT): 16, REF 14, FORT 14, WILL 11

Powers: Hit & Run (+6 v. AC), Twin Strike (+6 v. AC), Dire Wolverine Strike (+6 v. AC), Thunderwave (+3 v. FORT), Jaws of the Wolf (+6 v. AC)

If you want to have fun with this, carry a third sword and pick up Quick Draw, so that if you happen to have an Implement you want to use, drop a sword, QD the Implement for your power, and then QD your backup sword when you're ready to move on :smalltongue:

[Helgraf]

Archery Ranger/Rogue makes a good multiclass combo as well. Maybe you lose a bit on the Cha side, or alternately you can build into it since you don't need _much_ Strength anyway.

Hunter's Quarry and encounter Sneak Attack when your striker really really really needs to make it hurt _now_. Mobility and distance damage from each package; season your ranger with rogue powers to taste. Voila.

[serow]

Oh no, Spiral Tower is just the icing on the cake.I'm not refuting the usefulness of this multiclass, just wondering about its practicality from 1-10. You now have 3 things to enchant, your 2 weapons and your implement.
And of course, you now want to boost your Str, Int AND Wis, instead of just two stats.

[JaxGaret]

I'm not refuting the usefulness of this multiclass, just wondering about its practicality from 1-10. You now have 3 things to enchant, your 2 weapons and your implement.
And of course, you now want to boost your Str, Int AND Wis, instead of just two stats.

Being triple stat dependent (not even dependent on all three, really, since Wis is a secondary stat for both), especially when the three stats are in three different defense pairs, is not much of a problem in 4e, unless you are a serious min/maxer.

[Gort]

Warlords and wizards should get on, but I am still yet to get to grips with warlords.
I quite like the multiclassing in 4e it seems to be a difficult choice which these things should be...

A strength/intelligence based warlord who isn't taking that many charisma based powers will multiclass fairly well into wizards. I think think it will cover a few holes with the warlord giving him more options against opponents with high AC but lower other defenses. An area affect attack can be a useful tool as well.

The some of the first multiclass feats are good value. Most melee types can make good use of 1 hunters quarry per encounter or 1 back stab bonus. Getting extra healing in the party from the warlord or cleric is pretty good if you don't already have a cleric in the party. The fact that you can get a useful skill training as well with these is a bonus.

Obviously only multiclass into something you already have the stats for or it will probably cost your character too much in terms of effectiveness.

[OneFamiliarFace]

I'm not refuting the usefulness of this multiclass, just wondering about its practicality from 1-10. You now have 3 things to enchant, your 2 weapons and your implement.
And of course, you now want to boost your Str, Int AND Wis, instead of just two stats.

Actually, the beauty of that build is that one of his swords counts as his implement. He can use its bonus to apply to his spells. So he has no more to enchant than normal. And a normal Ranger needs Str, Dex, and Wis, which is three attributes anyway.

@OP: I remade my only characters (usually DM), one of whom compacted four books worth of stuff into just needing "orc" from the MM, and then PHB. Fighter/Warlord based around smashing things when he is angry and leading by example. He can do both more effectively than he could before. And he uses Str, Con, and Cha. And I don't find that staying with similar classes makes multiclassing useless, albeit slightly less flavorful. A paladin, for example, could multiclass fighter to pick up some abilities that allowed him to expend healing surges to heal himself in combat (as well as allies), and then with a high Con would be all kinds of healing surge madness.

@Multiclass Paragon: Unfortunately, I am pretty sure that these abilities are static. Still, I've found that even most 7th level encounter powers are not significantly underpowered compared to 11th level paragon powers. I do think there should be a new class feature or two added if you choose that path. As has been said, you only need the first feat (Arcane Initiate, etc) to pick up a paragon path. The three feats that lead you to multi-class do scale though, so whenever you gain a new power, you can choose a power from either class (but you can only ever have one of each kind from your multiclass.

@Saph: You have some good points there. Still, most classes suggest having three stats you look after. Even fighters can get pretty mean looking at Str, Dex, and Wis (with heavy blade/glaive opportunity attacks). (Which could open them up to clerics, paladins, rangers, rogues, and warlords.)

[Kurald Galain]

The some of the first multiclass feats are good value. Most melee types can make good use of 1 hunters quarry per encounter or 1 back stab bonus.

Certainly. In almost all cases, these feats are strictly better than the Skill Training feat.

However, the three power swap feats should be taken with care only, and paragon multiclassing appears to be not such a good idea.