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Crow
2008-07-05, 05:00 PM
I was working on a Ranger for use in an actual game, and was wanting to keep her versatile. She is going to be human for fluff reasons, and so for abilities I was looking at buying a 16 and a 14, and using my +2 to make it basically two 16's (For strength and dex, since I want to be able to melee and do ranged combat effectively). Also, she will multiclassing into Fighter at some point.

Is 16 in my primary stats too low? It seems like most people around here are preferring at least an 18 in their class' primary ability, or a 20 for specialists.

Saph
2008-07-05, 05:12 PM
I think it's okay. 16 Strength vs 18 Strength is -1 to hit and -1 to damage. Mildly annoying, but it'll only make a difference on 5% of attack rolls and maybe 10% of successful attacks.

It's even less of an issue for a Ranger, because the attack you'll mainly be using is Twin Strike, and that doesn't add your attribute mod to damage. Being able to go between melee and ranged is also handy (make sure to pick up Quick Draw for easy switching). I'd say you'll be fine.

- Saph

disorder
2008-07-05, 05:19 PM
My first impression of the 4e system -- and I haven't yet played extensively or run the numbers in detail -- is that "to-hit" bonuses matter a lot. Seems that they've designed a pretty good balance between attack and defense, so that you'll rarely find yourself making attacks that only miss on a natural 1, or that only hit on a natural 20.

Because of this, every missed opportunity for an attack bonus makes you significantly less dangerous.

If your ranger will be specialized either in archery or in melee combat, then you might want to go with 18 and 14 for her two highest stats (same cost as your 16 and 16 plan; just move the human bonus.) If you're using the higher bonus on most of your hit rolls, it's worth sacrificing a little on the attack modes you use less often.

All this number-crunching, of course, is less important than making an interesting character who will be fun to play...so if it's important to your character concept than she be equally skilled with a bow and a sword, then the 16 / 16 is the way to go.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-05, 05:28 PM
Seems that they've designed a pretty good balance between attack and defense, so that you'll rarely find yourself making attacks that only miss on a natural 1, or that only hit on a natural 20.

Because of this, every missed opportunity for an attack bonus makes you significantly less dangerous.


I'm not sure that follows. If things are balanced so you usually hit on an 11, then surely +/- 1 is always going to make roughly the difference between "hits on an 11" and "Hits on a 10". It's reducing your chance to hit by roughly 10% (that is to say, a 50% chance becomes a 45% chance, which is 10% smaller).

martyboy74
2008-07-05, 05:34 PM
I'm not sure that follows. If things are balanced so you usually hit on an 11, then surely +/- 1 is always going to make roughly the difference between "hits on an 11" and "Hits on a 10". It's reducing your chance to hit by roughly 10% (that is to say, a 50% chance becomes a 45% chance, which is 10% smaller).

Actually, it's only a 5% reduction (1/20). However, is a 5% reduction not significant? 5% here, 5% there, and next thing you know, you can't hit the broadside of a barn.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-05, 06:25 PM
Is 16 in my primary stats too low? It seems like most people around here are preferring at least an 18 in their class' primary ability, or a 20 for specialists.

No, but it is the absolute minimum. In a single-class stat (like a wizard) you'll probably want a 20 anyway, since you'll be using powers a lot and most of them do nada to squat when not hitting. In a dual-stat class (most of them) get at least two sixteens. Also, it's probably best to pick one of the build options (e.g. if playing a rogue, pick powers for strength or charisma but not both).

mikeejimbo
2008-07-05, 06:30 PM
Actually, it's only a 5% reduction (1/20). However, is a 5% reduction not significant? 5% here, 5% there, and next thing you know, you can't hit the broadside of a barn.

Actually he meant that 45 is 10% smaller than 50, because 10% of 50 is 5. At least, I'm fairly certain - I shouldn't speak for him of course.

Kurald Galain
2008-07-05, 06:45 PM
Actually he meant that 45 is 10% smaller than 50, because 10% of 50 is 5. At least, I'm fairly certain - I shouldn't speak for him of course.

Statistics are funny that way; you can claim any of a wide number of "percentual percentages" for this change, such as by stating that 50 is 11% more than 45.

This only muddles the issue, though. A +1 on 1d20 is a 5% difference.

JellyPooga
2008-07-05, 06:55 PM
One of the things I like about 4e is that practically every class has a use for at least 2 or 3 stats (Wizard being about the only exception, being able to get by with Int alone)...Ranger pushes that to 4 if you want to be a Melee and Ranged Ranger (i.e. Str, Dex, Con and Wis...deduct Str/Dex if you're going Ranged/Melee only respectively).

As such, spreading your Stat points (assuming point buy rather than rolled or array stats) more evenly is potentially more advantageous...I would reccomend something like Str 15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 9 if you're going with what you suggested (Human +2 bonus not included...put that where you will)...that way, upon reaching level 4, you upgrade both your attack Stats to +3...if you had Str 16, Dex 14 (which cost the same as 15/15), upon reaching level 4 if you pumped them, you get nothing (immediately). I would heartily advise you not to raise any of your initial stats above 16 (without racial bonus), because you start paying over the odds for them, which really isn't worth it, given that higher overall stats (as opposed to focused/specialised) is somewhat better than it was in 3e.

Might I ask why you are multiclassing from Ranger to Fighter? I wouldn't recommend it myself...Fighter has little to offer the Ranged Ranger and even less to offer the 2WF Ranger...The Ranged Ranger can pick up some melee powers that s/he could probably get the equal of without multiclassing and the 2WF Ranger is better off focusing on 2WF rather than the 1WF of the Fighter. My advice would be to Multiclass in something that offers something you can't get as a Ranger...e.g. Cleric/Wizard/Warlock offers ranged and area effect powers that don't require a weapon, as well as useful utilities (Cleric: Cure powers, Wizard: general utility [from teleport to time stop], Warlock: teleport), or Paladin/Warlord offers party buffs if you wanted to be a bit more of a team player.

Orzel
2008-07-05, 07:18 PM
Actually whether you want 1 huge stat or 2 large ones is based on the class. Rangers, fighters, clerics, and warlocks don't need many high stats. Outside of their main attributes, the others are for feats. Wizards, Warlocks, rogues, and some multiclasses will need 2 high attributes for their build.

An archery ranger with some fighter exploits would do do well with Des 16 and Str 15 before the +2. Ranger/Fighter not the best build. Human is not the best race for that build either.

disorder
2008-07-05, 07:20 PM
I'm not sure that follows. If things are balanced so you usually hit on an 11, then surely +/- 1 is always going to make roughly the difference between "hits on an 11" and "Hits on a 10". It's reducing your chance to hit by roughly 10% (that is to say, a 50% chance becomes a 45% chance, which is 10% smaller).
Actually, that was exactly my point, although maybe I expressed it unclearly. No matter your level, any +1 "to hit" bonus will give you a roughly 10% increase in average damage output...so it's always worth cultivating those hit bonuses.

Talon14
2008-07-05, 08:31 PM
...deduct Str/Dex if you're going Ranged/Melee only respectively).

Unless you're going for Stormwarden as a melee ranger, then you do want a high dex.


...Fighter has little to offer the Ranged Ranger and even less to offer the 2WF Ranger...

Except that pit fighter is an excellent PP for melee rangers, adding wis mod to damage on every hit is pretty nice.

The New Bruceski
2008-07-05, 08:42 PM
Actually, that was exactly my point, although maybe I expressed it unclearly. No matter your level, any +1 "to hit" bonus will give you a roughly 10% increase in average damage output...so it's always worth cultivating those hit bonuses.

No, it's not that even. Avoiding only hitting on a 20 or missing on a 1 doesn't mean you can expect to hit on an 11. A +1 to hit means any of your attacks will hit 5% more of the time, but you cannot go further in saying that means an x% increase in damage.
[/anal statistitics]

Crow
2008-07-06, 01:50 AM
I was looking to pick up Pit Fighter, so that is what the fighter multiclass is for. That and the fighter utility that lets you add 10 to initiative. A lot of the wizard and warlock powers are going to require abilities that will be low for me, so if they don't hit, won't do me much good anyways.

Helgraf
2008-07-06, 01:56 AM
16s are fine.

You can still do well with a 14 in a prime, you just need to make sure that you take actions to compensate (get combat advantage, charge, whatever you need to give you bonuses to hit before you lead in with your dailies/encounters).

With the builds I've assembled so far, I've generally gone either 16/16/14 or 16/16/16 for my power trio of stats. If you can realistically restrict yourself to only needing two stats (wizard comes to mind), then going 18/16 or 18/18 if your racial bonuses permit is certainly acceptable. You never _need_ to start with a 20 to be effective.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-07-06, 03:29 PM
Actually, that was exactly my point, although maybe I expressed it unclearly. No matter your level, any +1 "to hit" bonus will give you a roughly 10% increase in average damage output...so it's always worth cultivating those hit bonuses.

Ah, that makes sense.

On a related note, has anybody run the numbers on the expected to-hits for high level PCs - I tried to work some out for the purposes of this thread and was rather surprised at how low they were. By the time this guy is 30th level he'll have Strength 24, which only gives him +22 to hit before adjustments from magic. Given that most Level 30 enemies seem to have ACs in the high 40s, it seems a bit off.

Antacid
2008-07-06, 05:18 PM
Ah, that makes sense.

On a related note, has anybody run the numbers on the expected to-hits for high level PCs - I tried to work some out for the purposes of this thread and was rather surprised at how low they were. By the time this guy is 30th level he'll have Strength 24, which only gives him +22 to hit before adjustments from magic. Given that most Level 30 enemies seem to have ACs in the high 40s, it seems a bit off.
You missed a few things. You have to add for magic because the ACs are balanced with the assumption that the players are getting particular treasure, and the DMG even recommends giving the PCs the magic items they ask for.

Assuming Starting Strength of 16 (low for a Fighter).

+8 (Str 24, +2 from Demigod path to give Str 26), +15 (level) +1 (fighter class feature) +6 (magic weapon) +3 (proficiency) = +33. Hits an Ancient Red Dragon on a 15.

Not too bad. That's not including combat advantage or bonuses from assists from other players, which given the number of powers giving attack bonuses available at that level are likely to be considerable. Remember also that the only really high level monsters we have are Solos and Elites, who have +2 to Ac over "standard" monsters.

Crow
2008-07-06, 05:33 PM
Ok, so here is what I'm looking at so far. Even though I'm making this character for an actual game, I'm going to try and extrapolate to level 30 for the sake of thought exercise. For the hell of it, I've decided that I am going to go with ranged attacks for the majority of my attacks, but will try and build to be competent in melee just in case. Just for giggles, I want to be able to drop a fairly effective Blade Cascade just because. This is just me messing around. There isn't much of a point, I'm just putting it up in whatever order things occur to me to see if I'm missing anything.

16 to STR
14 +2 to DEX
14 to WIS

Then I'm going to look at getting a 13 in there for CON so I can passively qualify for Hide Armor Specialization. I'll be going for Demigod, so I'll get an extra +2 that I can dump into STR and DEX at that point. By level 30 I'll be looking at;

26 STR
26 DEX
16 WIS

I am going to need to plan my magic items well. I don't want to neglect defense, so at lvl 30 my lvl+1, lvl-1, and lvl magic items will be armor, ranged weapon, and neck item. I'm going to use my cash to buy two +5 shortswords (away from books, so not sure if I can get the "vicious" enhancement). I am going with shortswords to take advantage of nimble blade. I plan on picking up the feat that gives you combat advantage when you win initiative, coupled with the one that lets you re-roll it, and the fighter power that gives you +10 initiative once/day.

My STR attack bonus at 30 will be;

+8 str
+15 lvl
+5 itm
+3 pro
31 base (it's the same with my ranged attack if I go longbow, as the proficiency bonus is 1 lower and the enchantment is 1 higher)

Situationally, it can be better. I'm looking at an action-point usage to do the best damage I can with Blade Cascade. +31 is simply not enough. My plan is armor-splinter + action surge to up the to-hit. If I go stormwarden rather than pitfighter I can get a nice encounter power that ups my to-hit at the cost of AC.

armor splinter
+2 CA
+1 nimble blade
(+2 stormwarden)
+1 from one-handed weapon (fighter multiclass, only helps 1 roll)
37 on one attack, 36 on the other if I go stormwarden.

This isn't going to be very reliable unless I can get that to-hit higher, but it's getting difficult.

blade cascade
+2 CA
+1 nimble blade
(+2 stormwarden)
+3 action surge
+0 to +3 to +5 armor splinter
39 to 42 to 44 on the blade cascade.

If I sacrifice defense and invest all my magic into items, and pick up +6 shortswords, I get it one point higher. If I change my stat distribution, I can get it another point higher, at the cost of one point of ranged attack and ac (by putting my +2 into STR instead of dex for being human. So this gets me to the point where I am looking at 39 and 38 for the armor splinter.

Optimizing for the Blade Cascade will cost me AC and to-hit with my ranged weapon, which is not all that great, since I want to be focusing on ranged attacks. It may very well be a good idea to drop the idea of being able to pull off that particular trick, and instead focus on picking up the best encounter abilities that I can (which you'd want to do anyways), so as to take advantage of the Demigod's ability to never run out of encounter powers, and then optimize myself to use those better. Alternatively, if I really want to pull off the Blade cascade, I can go into Deadly Trickster rather than demigod to gain access to rerolls that will increase my chances of pulling off the cascade. This is at the cost of +2 to two attributes though, and the utterly awesome regeneration power that the demigod has. For a playable character, I am definitly thinking that dropping the blade cascade and going demigod are the way to go. If the character was just for pvp or designed for one encounter per day, I would definitly keep blade cascade and go with deadly trickster.

Sorry for this huge ramble...like I said, I am just doing a thought exercise out loud. Any thoughts?

Looking at lvel 30 and up monsters (all 3 of them), it looks like AC's will be anywhere from 43 to 48 (away from books).

Shades of Gray
2008-07-06, 08:30 PM
One of the things I like about 4e is that practically every class has a use for at least 2 or 3 stats (Wizard being about the only exception, being able to get by with Int alone).

Wizards need Dex, Con, or Wis for the abilities of Wand, Staff, and Orb respectively.

Helgraf
2008-07-07, 12:54 AM
Wizards need Dex, Con, or Wis for the abilities of Wand, Staff, and Orb respectively.

They need _one_ of those three since they only get one Implement mastery. Two if they take a Paragon Tier feat. And unlike most classes, they're all secondary. There are _no_ wizard powers that use anything other than Intelligence to hit, and only 4 that require you to have a high wisdom to suppliment their secondary effects. Dex is only needed if you're going Wand or want high Initiative. Dex 13 is fine for pretty much every other purpose - it's high enough to take the vast majority of Dex-prerequisite feats that a Wizard would be interested in, with the possible exception of a wizard who insists on going with Shield Specialization. Con is the bonus for the staff implement, and its standard effect on hp/bloodied/surge/spds. That's it.

Pretty much every other class has higher multiple stat needs than the wizard to remain functional.

Cleric: Wisdom, Charisma & Strength (you can ignore one)
Fighter: Strength, Dexterity & Constitution (weapon selection can narrow this)
Paladin: Strength, Charisma, Wisdom (you can mostly ignore one)
Ranger: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom (you can ignore one)
Rogue: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma (you can ignore one)
Warlock: Constitution, Charisma, Intelligence (you can mostly ignore one)
Warlord: Strength, Charisma, Wisdom (you can mostly ignore one)
Wizard: Intelligence, [Wisdom, Dexterity or Constitution] (you can mostly ignore all but Int)

Orzel
2008-07-07, 01:56 AM
A wizard will want either his Wis, Dex, or Con close to his Int for his implement. He'll also want a few positives for his very important feats.

For the most part there are 3 kinds of build in 4E.

The Focused build goes for an 18-20 in her primary stat, 12-14 in the secondary, ignores the rest mostly, and goes for easy to qualify feats:
Archery ranger
Laser clerics
War wizards

The Dual stat build goes for an 16-18 in her primary stat and secondary stat and focuses on powers and feats that use both:
Implement wizard
Wisdom and TWF rangers
Rogues, warlords, fighters, and warlocks

The Spread build goes for 16 and 2 14's to use every aspect of the class, play unique builds, or raise survival rate:
Star pact warlocks
Sword and bow ranger
Multiclassers