The Lich King vs the Prime Evils

[Executor]

I recently finished another game of Diablo II: Lord of Destruction, the announcement of Diablo III got me in the mood for some hack and slash. But, holy **** man, the Prime Evils are some kind of crazy. I mean, Blizzard always makes great villains but man... they went to town with the Three Prime Evils. Diablo, Lord of Terror, Baal, Lord of Destruction, Mephisto, Lord of Hate. Now, I had also completed a replay of Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne and this got me to thinking... What if Hell invaded Northrend?

It is one year after Arthas took the Frozen Throne and became the Lich King. He is now the most powerful being on Azeroth... but all that power does not go unnoticed. In the deep pits of Hell, the Three Prime Evils watch the Lich King's growing power with apprehension. He could be a threat to their power. The brothers decide that they will deal with him personally. One day, as the Lich King sits upon his throne and overlooks his cold realm, the sky clouds over and the ground rips open in the center of Northrend. Fire spews from the gaping hole in the Earth, scorching the surrounding land, and soon the armies of Hell empty into Northrend. Skeletons, Zombies, demons of every description. And leading this vast army personally are the three Prime Evils themselves. Baal, Lord of Destruction. Mephisto, Lord of Hate. And mightiest of them all, Diablo, Lord of Terror.

So the forces of Hell are invading Northrend. They are based around a huge deep hole in the centre of Northrend that leads directly to Hell. The area around this hole is occupied by encampments of Hell's army. To see the various creatures that would make up the limitless hordes of Hell, check out the Arreat Summit's bestiary section: http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/ . But really, the battle comes down to the face off between Arthas, the Lich King and the three Prime Evils. Who wins? Remember the Lich King will be trying to force the Prime Evils back into hell, while the Prime Evils will be working together to destroy the Lich King.

[Innis Cabal]

The Prime Evils.

[EvilElitest]

when i read the title, i thought you meant love craft's elder evils, and i despaired. But this is an interesting thread. So is this the Three at the height of their power, or during the Diablo saga, with all the minons of the first two games?


Is Arthas using his Forces from the Burning Legion, or after the betryal. Does he get the Forsaken as well?
from
EE

edit

The pit to hell should be on the southern end of the plauglands, with the LK owning everything north from there. All neutral parties should be gone
from
Ee

[Executor]

1. No Forsaken, I was under the impression that they were independent Undead
2. After the betrayal, this is Arthas and the Undead Scourge by themselves against the armies of Hell.
3. Very well, the Hellpit shall be at the southern end of the Plaguelands.

Of course I wouldn't pit Arthas against the Elder Evils. My friend, have you so little faith in my ability to match VS characters equally?

And I was thinking of the Three from during the Diablo games with all the minions from the first two games of course.

[EvilElitest]

1. No Forsaken, I was under the impression that they were independent Undead
2. After the betrayal, this is Arthas and the Undead Scourge by themselves against the armies of Hell.
3. Very well, the Hellpit shall be at the southern end of the Plaguelands.

Of course I wouldn't pit Arthas against the Elder Evils. My friend, have you so little faith in my ability to match VS characters equally?

And I was thinking of the Three from during the Diablo games with all the minions from the first two games of course.

1) Alright, sometimes you count any force he has ever had, but normally you count any force he had that didn't betry him
2) Fair enough, for the same reason
3) Hmmmm, well this is interesting. Demons from Diablo can be raised as undead (I think) or at least some of them, but i'm not sure about all of them. personally, i'm thinking that the prime evils would win, but i want LK to win, so i think i'll go with him for now. I haven't played diablo for ages so i'm a little shaky on their powers, but ironicaly enoguh two days ago i re read the entire beastrary on that site you showed me so i'm a little caught up
4) I didn't see who made it, i just saw the thread on media studies, and went with it. At first i was dissapointed, the LK doesn't get enough love, but this seems very apporate.
5) Ok, but only video game villians, not off screen ones. Do they get all of the lesser evils, or only two of them (the ones who turned back to their side) And is this hell mode?
from
EE

[Executor]

Yeah sure, it'll be hell mode. After all, there's a pit that leads directly to hell. And yes, the Prime Evils will have the Lesser Evils that came back to their side with them on Azeroth.

[Mr. Scaly]

3) Hmmmm, well this is interesting. Demons from Diablo can be raised as undead (I think) or at least some of them

Diablo necromancers seem to manage it.

And on a side note I think it's ironic that human characters band together so often to kill the three Evils, and now we have the three Evils banding together to kill a (mostly) human.

[EvilElitest]

wait executor, two questions

1) Is it all 7 prime evils (remember we never meet two of them, they are against the three) or just the 5 we meet in teh game?
2) Are all of the monsters in hell mode, are just a percentage of them are hell versions of the normal?
from
EE

[Innis Cabal]

Mephisto can control undead for one. Baal has all the power of Tal Rasha if memory serves, and are they there in their mortal shells? Or are they there as their actual selves? As the hero's have yet to(Other then perhaps the Dark Wanderer-and that was only Diablo) fight them in their actual bodies.

[EvilElitest]

Mephisto can control undead for one. Baal has all the power of Tal Rasha if memory serves, and are they there in their mortal shells? Or are they there as their actual selves? As the hero's have yet to(Other then perhaps the Dark Wanderer-and that was only Diablo) fight them in their actual bodies.

well if we are using the first two games as reference, just there diablo II forms. I thought you fight the true version of them when you fight uber diablo, uber Baal, and uber mephisto
from
EE

[Executor]

1: Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, Andarial and Duriel are the Great Evils opposing Arthas.

2: Lessay 25% of the Hell army are Hell mode versions of the originals.

[EvilElitest]

1: Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, Andarial and Duriel are the Great Evils opposing Arthas.

2: Lessay 25% of the Hell army are Hell mode versions of the originals.

1) ok, thanks. When they are killed, do they resort to their ber form
2) And the other 75% are easy, normal and hard? Ok makes sense
3) Hmmmm, i'm still rusty on my diablo lore, but i'm thinking the Lich king is going to win this one. not sure, but his vast hoard of undead, and hte fact he can raise zombies (wait, the diablo class necromancer can raise zombies as well right?) gives him a huge edge
from
EE

[Icewalker]

Prime Evils win because Duriel is ridiculously overpowered :smallyuk:

Damn, he's annoying.

Ah well, moving on. I just replayed a huge amount of Diablo II (great game).

I don't really know what kind of forces Arthas has at his command, as I haven't played WIII for a long time and don't remember exactly how he's doing at the end, so I'll just go for Lich King vs. Prime Evils.

With him against all 5, I'd say it depends on what setting the evils are on. Normal, Lich King wins. Nightmare...probably a pretty fair fight. If it is 5v1 all at once, the evils may win. If he gets to face them one at a time during the confusion of battle, he may win.

Hell difficulty, Diablo uses Arthas' skull as a chalice, assuming it survives his blast of inferno lightning.


Note with regard to bosses vs. minions (ie, Arthas' ability to raise armies of zombies from the slain as an advantage). In D2, the normal enemies, and notably a necromancers minions, would be/get torn to pieces by the bosses so fast. As an example, Diablo's ring of fire (I think it has infinite range in the game, but spreads so as it goes out far enough you can fit between bits of fire) will destroy every skeleton minion it hits.

So, minions are of little use. They will die in waves and seconds before the prime evils.

[Shadowcaller]

1: Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, Andarial and Duriel are the Great Evils opposing Arthas.

Duriel and Andarial is only lesser evils thought so I don't know if they can be counted to the greater ones.

[Dhavaer]

Prime Evils win because Duriel is ridiculously overpowered :smallyuk:

Whiel this is true for almost every game of Diablo 2 I've played, for some reason Duriel assumes the position as soon as he sees one of my necromancers. I've no idea why, they aren't that great against anything else.

[EvilElitest]

Duriel was over powered due to a glitch. So when your guy is still loading into the area, he is already attacking, making fighting him an awful experience

For the record, 25% of the forces are on easy, 25% on are normal, 25% are on nightmare, 25% are on hell (with all bosses in hell form)


Arthas can raise any dead demon as an undead, so that gives him a massive advantage there. To be fair, so can the prime evils, but to a lesser extent
from
EE

[Icewalker]

There isn't an easy, just Normal, Nightmare, and Hell.

If those are the difficulties, I'd say it goes to the prime evils. Any undead raised to oppose them will be quickly slaughtered with little difficulty.

@Dhavaer: Do you mean necromancers are good at Duriel, and others aren't? Because I usually play necromancers and he tears them to pieces, seeing as he one-shots every single skeleton and golem...

[Winterwind]

The Prime Evils, without even breaking a sweat.

Why?

Well, to realize just how powerful the Prime Evils are, Diablo 2 is not enough. You have to have read the (quite detailed) story of the world as given in Diablo 1. Then, you would learn that, when the Prime Evils were exiled by their lesser brethren from the Burning Hells in what became to be known as the Dark Exile, they were able to annihilate one third of all of Hell's forces all on their own.

Ner'zhul/Arthas, mighty as he may be, is just a former mortal (alright, two). The Prime Evils are three of seven fragments of evil itself, in a universe that was dominated for, essentially, eternity by a conflict between good and evil which neither side was able to sway into one or other direction for a long time. They are an integral part of that universe, for all purposes gods. I think in WarCraft terms they would be more akin to Titans than anything else.

EDIT: Oh yeah - if the Three command the forces of hell once again, then, logically, they must have taken control not only of Andariel and Duriel, but also of Asmodan and Belial.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Asmodan and Belial where never really with the Three anyway so I wouldn't exactly count them. Point of fact though Mephisto (my favorite of the three) isn't the Lord of Hate but the Lord of Bones/Undead (not sure which) which means he'll be on par/better at necromancy then Arthas is. And if your going by the backstory then the real forms of the demons shouldn't be used (not the weakened versions from the game) since oh I dunno...Mephisto bleeds powerful monsters with each drop of blood.

This isn't counting Diablo and Bhaal's non-game abilities.

Then again I am a massive fan of the Diablo games and backstory so I'm obviously biased on the subject. Nevertheless any NAMED demon from Diablo is damn strong despite their video game representation.

'sides if they get ALL of Hell then that means they also have the horned bomber (or whatever it was) that was instrumental (including Asmodan) to banishing them in the first place and is probably an unfair advantage.

[Winterwind]

Asmodan and Belial where never really with the Three anyway so I wouldn't exactly count them.Neither were Andariel and Duriel, prior to D2. Since the OP put the forces of Hell at the side of the Prime Evils and made Hell the starting point of the Prime Evils, I would assume Asmodan and Belial must have either capitulated before the Prime Evils, or have fallen. And since the Prime Evils seem to prefer punishing the Lesser Evils by forcing them to do arduous tasks, rather than destroying them (as evidenced by Andariel and Duriel), I figure they would do the same with the other two Lesser Evils.


Point of fact though Mephisto (my favorite of the three) isn't the Lord of Hate but the Lord of Bones/Undead (not sure which) which means he'll be on par/better at necromancy then Arthas is.He is the lord of the undead, but his actual title is Lord of Hate (Odium). Which doesn't change anything about, yes, Mephisto being the master of all things undead.


And if your going by the backstory then the real forms of the demons shouldn't be used (not the weakened versions from the game) since oh I dunno...Mephisto bleeds powerful monsters with each drop of blood. Monsters powerful enough to immediately force a powerful taskforce of angels into retreat by tossing balls of magma from the world's core, too. That surely wouldn't sit well with Arthas' cold based forces...


Then again I am a massive fan of the Diablo games and backstory so I'm obviously biased on the subject. Nevertheless any NAMED demon from Diablo is damn strong despite their video game representation.Even the non-named ones are described as pretty much darn powerful. The Overlords from D1 were formerly fallen angels from Inarius' followers, for crying out loud, and they are not even remotely amongst the more powerful of hell's forces.


'sides if they get ALL of Hell then that means they also have the horned bomber (or whatever it was) that was instrumental (including Asmodan) to banishing them in the first place and is probably an unfair advantage.Horned Death Legion, I believe (never been explained what exactly this was).

EDIT: Have checked the D1 manual. Just Horned Death.

[Innis Cabal]

its really not a contest if they arent using the mortal vessels. They would hardly need back up in such an event really.

[EvilElitest]

i thought we are only using their video game adaptations. IE, we aren't going to count any non video game powers unless they are cutscenes. Other wise it is too vague to really tell



and aren't Uber Diablo ect the true forms of them?

Anyways, even only using hte first two games plus expansion pack, that still gives us a demon army of some high hundred thousands, through to be fair, the LK has an army of near equal size


from
EE

[Winterwind]

i thought we are only using their video game adaptations. IE, we aren't going to count any non video game powers unless they are cutscenes. Other wise it is too vague to really tellThis seems hardly fair - there is no video game adaptation of the Lich King available (well, until the new WoW expansion comes out, I guess), the games only show us what Arthas is capable of. So the LK would get all his powers from lore (which makes him powerful), yet the Prime Evils would be limited to their (vastly weaker) game presentations.
If we went by lore in both cases, I really don't think it would be vague. Not any more vague than if we used Lovecraftian entities instead. I see not even the slightest chance for the Lich King against a single one of the lore Prime Evils, much less all three of them.

[hamishspence]

What about their representation in novels:Sin war trilogy?

[Steven the Lich]

Damn... Now this looks like a powerful match up.
I honestly can't say who would win.

Questions...
1) Are anti-necromancy demons in Diablo the majority?
2) Would the LK's plague affect those that aren't immune to necromancy?
3) Are we including those who have sworn allegiance to the LK, like the Razorfen and Vrykul?

This seems to be an interesting match up. One not disimilar with LK vs. Sauron. After all, the polar oposite seems to hold up, as I imagine Diablo is all about fire.
However, I am absolutely lacking in knowledge about Diablo the game, as I never played it for myself. I saw it played before but I was too young to play. So I'm dealing with little to no knowledge of Diablo. I do know however that the Prime Evils are... well, maybe the essence of all evil itself, so that alone is big. I believe that if it is their game forms, we should stick to what they're capable of in the world of Sanctuary. If they're not in those forms, I give it to them. The LK is like a god in terms of power and worship, but not actually one.

EDIT: Winterwind, we see a great deal of Arthas' capabilities in military, magic, etc. He has no video game limitations because he is enitrely in the games as himself at full power.
I think it would be unfair to bring in the Prime Evils' lore version because... well... they're gods of evil, and as much as I'm a fan for the LK, that sorta wins out. It is perfectyly fair anyway, because as they take on mortal forms for Sanctuary, they must take on Mortal forms for Azeroth. On the side, you think Blizzard thought it would be fair to set players against gods of evil in their full forms with nothing but magic words and swords or whatever they are limited to?

[EvilElitest]

winterwind, we have a general idea of what the LK can do (like we did during the LK vs. Sauron thread). The main point is his combination of the frozen throne and Arthas.


The prime at their full form, i'm not sure of their total power, but wouldn't they simply elimate the need for this contest all together. Being on Northrend, they should be in their mortal forms, with any lore powers that they can get using their mortal forms. With all the demons they use in both games of course
from
EE

[Innis Cabal]

Anyways, even only using hte first two games plus expansion pack, that still gives us a demon army of some high hundred thousands, through to be fair, the LK has an army of near equal size
from
EE

No, they are still just physical+what ever powers their mortal body had. Tal Rasha, the head of the Council, and The Dark Wanderer

[Dhavaer]

@Dhavaer: Do you mean necromancers are good at Duriel, and others aren't? Because I usually play necromancers and he tears them to pieces, seeing as he one-shots every single skeleton and golem...

I don't know. I've never heard anything about other necromancers doing really well against Duriel. He just dies incredibly quickly against mine.

[konfeta]

The power scales seem a little off here. I mean, if I remember mah lore correctly, Baal managed to wipe out most of the Horadrim hunting party by making the ground around him explode. And that is before he possessed Tal'Rasha. And if you really consider it, the only reason the Dark Exile occurred was because they let it happen. They wiped out a third of hell just to put up a show. They let themselves get captured by the Horadrim just to get access to the Soulstones.

The Prime Evils are on the level of power where normal armies mean nothing to them. You need incredibly powerful champions and mages to pose a threat to them, which means most of the Lich King's army is essentially useless.

I seriously doubt the Lich King can win this unless he is personally (with a help of his strongest minions such as Kel'Thuzad) are strong enough to fight the Prime Evils by themselves.

[Mr. Scaly]

I don't know. I've never heard anything about other necromancers doing really well against Duriel. He just dies incredibly quickly against mine.

Really? What build do you use? I can NEVER beat Duriel easily.

[Dhavaer]

Really? What build do you use? I can NEVER beat Duriel easily.

A few points in the low level golem (clay?) and a lot in Bone Spear. Keep firing the spear and re-cast the golem as necessary.

[Mr. Scaly]

A few points in the low level golem (clay?) and a lot in Bone Spear. Keep firing the spear and re-cast the golem as necessary.

Huh. I'm tempted to replay the game just to try it out. Anyway...

Have the Prime Evils ever had an air force on par with the frost wyrms?

[Innis Cabal]

other then what ever flying demons they had, who knows. I doubt we saw half of the legions they could spawn.

[konfeta]

The Prime Evils never really needed an airforce. Most of their army power is concentrated in powerful spellcasting troops and very, very powerful demons (depending on which species you pick, have a varied amount of physical prowess, agility, and cunning).

I don't think the Frost Whyrms will be a threat to them. They are fairly large targets, and the Lich King never really prepared his Whyrms to directly combat demonic magic and troops.


One should also consider that the Prime Evils love to corrupt, and they excell at it. Whatever arguments were elected to apply in the Sauron vs. Lich King argument as far as corrupting goes, it works here. If it's powerful individuals, it's lure of tremendous power. If it's a mindless beast, it is warped with demonic magic until it becomes either a loyal minion of hell or a berserker to everything around it. Even in death, like Diablo did, they can drive the ones who slayed them insane.

Think about it, Mephisto, by himself, effortlessly corrupted almost all of the Order of Zakarum, the Diabloverse's equivalent of holy templar types. Only those with a strong will can resist direct corruption and subsequent possession (like King Leoric did), but they will invariably go insane in the attempt. Either way, a win-win situation.

[Mr. Scaly]

The Prime Evils never really needed an airforce. Most of their army power is concentrated in powerful spellcasting troops and very, very powerful demons (depending on which species you pick, have a varied amount of physical prowess, agility, and cunning).

I don't think the Frost Whyrms will be a threat to them. They are fairly large targets, and the Lich King never really prepared his Whyrms to directly combat demonic magic and troops.

Well they wouldn't be a win button. The guy with the air force alone doesn't automatically win, but he has access to all kinds of options that those with less mobile forces don't have. Scouting, flank attacks, carpet bombardment, fast mobility and what have you. And I think we can all agree that they're strong, being dragons and all. So prepared specifically to fight demons and magics or not they're not going to just roll over and die.


One should also consider that the Prime Evils love to corrupt, and they excell at it. Whatever arguments were elected to apply in the Sauron vs. Lich King argument as far as corrupting goes, it works here. If it's powerful individuals, it's lure of tremendous power. If it's a mindless beast, it is warped with demonic magic until it becomes either a loyal minion of hell or a berserker to everything around it. Even in death, like Diablo did, they can drive the ones who slayed them insane.

Think about it, Mephisto, by himself, effortlessly corrupted almost all of the Order of Zakarum, the Diabloverse's equivalent of holy templar types. Only those with a strong will can resist direct corruption and subsequent possession (like King Leoric did), but they will invariably go insane in the attempt. Either way, a win-win situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of Arthas' troops undead that are controlled directly by his own will? And that those who aren't were already corrupted by him? Can you corrupt someone who's been corrupted?

[Matar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of Arthas' troops undead that are controlled directly by his own will? And that those who aren't were already corrupted by him? Can you corrupt someone who's been corrupted?

In all honesty, with how much Blizzard ****ed up there own lore I would side with Sauron rather then the Lich King now. Seriously, there not even adding to it anymore. Just changing what they have.

Also, if we are going to do something like the Lich King VS the Prime Evils we need to like, whip out a plot or something >_>. Without some kind of plot advantage the Lich King will lose, hands down.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of Arthas' troops undead that are controlled directly by his own will? And that those who aren't were already corrupted by him? Can you corrupt someone who's been corrupted?

The last time I checked that was changed by Blizzard. I think now he just manipulates them, instead of directly controlling them.

If we use Frozen Throne lore, and not WoW lore then yeah. He stands a chance VS Sauron and the Prime Evils I think. But put WoW "lore" into the mix and he loses hard core.

[AslanCross]

Huh. I'm tempted to replay the game just to try it out. Anyway...

Have the Prime Evils ever had an air force on par with the frost wyrms?

There seem to be only a few truly dangerous flying demons in Diablo. The only ones I can name off the top of my head are the megademons (Balrog-type) and the succubi. The megademons are incredibly powerful, while the succubi are excellent skirmishers. The edge that the Hells have over the Frost Wyrm air force, I think, is that there are innumerable demons at the Hells' disposal. From the fluff the games say about Frost Wyrms, there are a finite (but still large) number of them.

[hamishspence]

Succubi didn't get flight till d2, Megademons never got flight in game. They did, however, get flight in the D20 version.

[Winterwind]

Alright... if we want to compare the armies...

As in the RTS in most situations, Frost Wyrms would probably be an inferior choice for the Lich King compared to Destroyers. While we have little info on the Prime Evils' air forces (mostly due to limitations of the game, I would argue, but that's beside the point), they have some very powerful ranged casters who would make mincemeat of the undead dragons. Beside the already mentioned (flying) succubi, who can provide a massive barrage and the megademons' firebreath, there would be Oblivion Knight mages (undead heroes fallen in the Sin War, possessing powerful elemental magics and an impressive array of terrifying curses), willowisps (flying wraith-like creatures with a mana-burning ranged homing attack) and burning souls (flying ghosts with a lightning attack that is perfectly capable of devastating the mightiest of heroes clad in legendary armour). Quite a few more, actually, but those would be some of the most powerful ranged units on the Evils' side. Since most of this is based on magic, the magic-immune and -devouring Destroyers would surely be a better choice.

Though by feeling alone I would say that the general power level of the Diablo universe lies far, far above that of the WarCraft one. Even the weaker followers of the Prime Evils are described as immensly powerful beings, far superior to average human warriors.

Take, for example, this (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act2-sandraider.shtml) and this (http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act2-blunderbore.shtml) creature. It is clearly implied that they are superior warriors as compared to normal humans - yet those are fairly weak opponents from the Second Act, nothing compared to the infernal monstrosities of Hell itself.

[EvilElitest]

my hand is hurt, can barely type

1) I don't think Baal gained the powers of TR, he just used his body
2) and they didn't let the dark exile happen, they just put up a good fight
from
EE

[Innis Cabal]

Even if he dosnt get all of Tal Rasha's power( And i am pretty sure he does indeed possess all of the Horadric mage's power) he was enough for same said mage to have to bind him into himself.

[ZeroNumerous]

On the second point of contention: Diablo, Baal, and Mephisto in their real and original bodies destroyed one-third of all of Hell's forces. By themselves and without support. It took the elite of the elite of the elite to subdue the Prime Evils and they still lost a third of their men.

I'd just like to point out that after Diablo was subdued by the Horadrim and sealed in a Soulstone, he slept for two-hundred and fifty years. Then in the span of just a few days(Diablo 1) he had driven the Good King Leoric insane, possessed his son, raised an army, and tore open a rift to Hell itself. He is then banished by one of the most powerful mortals in the world.

In the span of a few months(Diablo 2), he corrupts and possesses said mortal, raises and enthralls both Andariel and Duriel, destroys the Rogues, lays siege to the city of Lut Gholiem, and even makes his way back to Hell itself.

And he does all of that with a weak, piddly little mortal body. That, of course, discounts the fact that Mephisto twisted and corrupted an entire order of Paladins and Priests from the safety of his Soulstone while Baal was powerful enough to corrupt the very Worldstone itself.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Ner'Zhul, his soul trapped within a suit of (magical) armor, that itself was trapped in a block of magical ice taken from the Void where demons are born, and single-handedly killed and raised from the dead a large portion of a large, sprawling, and powerful empire of powerful mortals (The Nerubians) got their King to betray them, and solidified his rule of Northrend (yes I realize other things still lived there, but most of it was a vast wasteland of death, and the concentrations of those others was weak at best)

He then proceeded to corrupt one of the most powerful magi in the world from his icy prison in Northrend, thousands of miles away, who in turn corrupted dozens, if not hundreds of humans and lesser mages. From there, Ner'Zhul and Kel'Thuzad spread a magical plague that devastated the most powerful kingdom in the Alliance, and dealt a brutal blow to the alliance itself.

After doing that, when Arthas, a powerful paladin (paladins being resistant to undeath and the undead being as they are emissaries and warriors of the Light) came to kill him, he slowly drove him mad, before finally turning him to his side with a magical sword, which let him whisper straight into Arthas's head. Once this was done Arthas went back, killed his father the king, and caused the fall of Lordaerons capital before killing him.

Then, when he became too much for his demon master, Kil'Jaeden to control (who was more powerful than Archimonde, who himself could lay waste to armies and destroy worlds) Kil'Jaeden sent Illidan, a powerful sorcerer, who was more than just a demon or a night elf and who was very powerful in his own right to kill him.

Arthas, after defeating Illidan, fused with Ner'Zhul, becoming the Lich King, and not only becoming far more powerful than either had before and thus more than just the sum of his parts, he is the single most powerful entity on Azeroth.

[Innis Cabal]

And even all of that, truely does not stack up against being able to wipe out a third of Hell(tm) without aid. Not only that, but in a one on one affair, numbers do matter. The Real Mephisto(as it has been pointed out on this thread earlier) -bleeds- demons. Not just spawns them, he bleeds them. Also, Mephisto is a powerful necromancer in his own right, and we wont bother to mention Baal or Diablo, as they are unneeded.

[konfeta]

1) I don't think Baal gained the powers of TR, he just used his body
2) and they didn't let the dark exile happen, they just put up a good fight
from
EE

1) The way possession works in Diabloverse is simple - the stronger the individual, the more powerful the manifestation of the demon doing the possession. By possessing Tal'Rasha, Baal gained the knowledge that Tal'Rasha had as well as gaining an incredibly powerful mortal shell to walk in Sanctuary. I am not aware how strong the Prime Evils are in their original forms, but judging from the "Let's boomstick a third of hell" incident, they are tremendously powerful.

From that perspective, the abilities of the Prime Evils would be limited by whenever they enter Northrend in their normal forms or they would have to start from scratch and possess mortals.

2) Yes, they did. They masterminded the whole thing with Izual once they learned of the Soulstones. It is made quite clear in the game once you do the Izual quest.

@Lord_Asmodeus. As good as the Lich King is, I don't think he can stand up to what are essentially the supreme rulers of hell from a universe with a higher power scale of combat. He might match their cunning and brains; as well as exhibit abilities that will give them pause, but I honestly don't think he has the same raw power as them.

[AslanCross]

1) The way possession works in Diabloverse is simple - the stronger the individual, the more powerful the manifestation of the demon doing the possession. By possessing Tal'Rasha, Baal gained the knowledge that Tal'Rasha had as well as gaining an incredibly powerful mortal shell to walk in Sanctuary. I am not aware how strong the Prime Evils are in their original forms, but judging from the "Let's boomstick a third of hell" incident, they are tremendously powerful.

This is, I'd expect, the fluff explanation for why the Diablo in D2 is very different from the Diablo in D1. D1's Diablo was using the body of the Prince Albrecht, who was little more than a boy. D2's was using that of the hero in D1.
D1's Diablo was huge, but not really impressive. D2's was Diablosaurus Rex and had a whole bunch of new abilities.

(Of course, the real reason is the improvement of the technology used and the new epic feel they added to D2, but the fluff still makes sense.)

[hamishspence]

Which might also explain why the villain in the d3 preview cinematic looks different again.

Asmodeus from D&D (in real form) also bleeds devils (pit fiends with max HP) Does that go back to early D&D?

[Mr. Scaly]

Asmodeus from D&D (in real form) also bleeds devils (pit fiends with max HP) Does that go back to early D&D?

Do you mean the mechanics or flavour wise?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Do you mean the mechanics or flavour wise?

Given that this is more a war of fluff I would guess flavor wise, but I won't put words in anyone's mouth. Actually both would be nice to know, for relevance sake.

[Innis Cabal]

Not mechanically, but flavor wise its been hinted at as long back as Planescape i am pretty sure

[hamishspence]

"Tyrants of the Nine Hells" gives us aspect versions of the archdevils rather than their true forms. And, in the bit on Nessus, it tells us Asmodeus is still at the end of Serpent's Coil, in his true form, in his fortress, still bleeding, the blood drops turning to pit fiends.

(it says Serpent's coil was carved out by the still falling Asmodeus, so we don't have to go with the theory that he is really a thousand mile long serpent.)

[Winterwind]

The Real Mephisto(as it has been pointed out on this thread earlier) -bleeds- demons. Not just spawns them, he bleeds them.And for clarification, those are not some small imps, either - the demons in question are huge burning stone monstrosities, quite similar to Infernals actually.

[puppyavenger]

And for clarification, those are not some small imps, either - the demons in question are huge burning stone monstrosities, quite similar to Infernals actually.

and the Witch king doesn't have any of those anymore.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And for clarification, those are not some small imps, either - the demons in question are huge burning stone monstrosities, quite similar to Infernals actually.

I wouldn't call them huge, taller then the average man definitely, but not huge. However that is purely flavor for Mephisto, he doesn't actually bleed magma demons when you fight him in Diablo 2 (though that would have been awesome and made him a harder fight) though that might be because he doesn't really seem to have a body...

[Mr. Scaly]

I wouldn't call them huge, taller then the average man definitely, but not huge. However that is purely flavor for Mephisto, he doesn't actually bleed magma demons when you fight him in Diablo 2 (though that would have been awesome and made him a harder fight) though that might be because he doesn't really seem to have a body...

True that. No matter how epically awesome, most of the Evils fall for the old 'shot then run' strategy. It takes some of the special out of it.

Then again Asmodeus is arguably the source of all evil in the Forgotten Realms. Probably not quite but pretty damn close, so there's a flavourful reason why his blood creates advanced devils. Is it the same for the Prime Evils?

[Innis Cabal]

I wouldn't call them huge, taller then the average man definitely, but not huge. However that is purely flavor for Mephisto, he doesn't actually bleed magma demons when you fight him in Diablo 2 (though that would have been awesome and made him a harder fight) though that might be because he doesn't really seem to have a body...

there is a very good explaination for that. Your not fighting his real body. Your fighting him through the head of the Zakarum priests who he took over after completly corrupting Kurast

[puppyavenger]

there is a very good explaination for that. Your not fighting his real body. Your fighting him through the head of the Zakarum priests who he took over after completly corrupting Kurast

does he bleed deomons in the pandemonium event?

[Lord_Asmodeus]

True that. No matter how epically awesome, most of the Evils fall for the old 'shot then run' strategy. It takes some of the special out of it.

Then again Asmodeus is arguably the source of all evil in the Forgotten Realms. Probably not quite but pretty damn close, so there's a flavourful reason why his blood creates advanced devils. Is it the same for the Prime Evils?

As far as I can recall (which isn't exact) being the Prime Evils, they are in fact the first and most powerful evils in all of Diabloverse, though I could be wrong about that.

[konfeta]

The Pandemonium event isn't part of the story. It's like a cow level.

[EvilElitest]

1) Ok, so corruption does work that way, but we've seen Bhaal fight in game, we know his limits (of his game form at least
2) Are you sure the exile was planned? source please
3) I don't think the three along took down 1/3 of hell's forces, it was them and the demons who sided with them


Anyways, i admit that if tehy are at full power the LK doesn't have a chance. But if we just have their incarnations from diablo II we can have a more even fight. How about this



We have the three in their Diablo II forms. They have most of the enemies in the game (except any that don't actually serve them directly, if any) and two of the lesser evils, along with that mother person. Should they be slain, they revert to their state pandemonium state in 13 days and resume fighting . Should they be slain in that state, they die forever, except for diablo himself, who will revert to his Diablo one state (he has all of the forces from that game as well).


Arthas is in his LK form, with all the undead he has ever commanded at any point except the forsakeon. Should Arthas be slain, the LK' soul will return to the Frozen throne and command his army from there. However, he can't fight phyicially of course.

is that fair?
from
EE

[konfeta]

1. Direct quote from Izual after you defeat him in Diablo 2:


Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me!

You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world.

The plan we set in motion so long ago cannot be stopped by any mortal agency. Hell, itself, is poised to spill forth into your world like a tidal wave of blood and nightmares.

You and all your kind . . . are doomed.

2. Quote from the manual on the Dark Exile part:


Thus, a great revolution was set into motion as all of Hell went to war against the Three Brothers...

The Brothers fought with all the savagery of the Underworld, and to their credit, annihilated a third of Hell's treacherous legions. In the end, however, they were overcome by the Horned Death led by the traitors Azmodan and Belial.

Overall, even in their D2 forms I would say they win. Mostly because they would lose the constraint of having a collection of some of the most powerful mortals around chasing them. Remember, during most of D2, they are on the run and their opposition are more powerful than them at every step of the way. In the scenario your propose, they have no time limits to accumulate their power and simply grow too strong for the Lich King to handle. It's the one battle of attrition the Lich King has zero chance of winning.