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DemonSlayer
2008-07-07, 08:01 AM
Hey everyone,

So, Me and some friends started a new campaign last saturday, in which I am the DM. I t went really well; we all had fun, and only one player died (and not even that- he was just on negative hit points. Lvl 1 gnome rogues just need to not jump AT the charging bear).

However, there's a slight problem I had not foreseen; I balanced the whole campaign for 4 players, but it seems that there will be only three at most, two at best. These two players have stood up to my challenges superbly (the "dying gnome" issue aside), killing off wolves, bears, bats and even rats.

But I'm worried about what might happen if I throw my more powerful monsters at them next session. What would you advise me to do?

A) Fudge rolls a bit more?
B) Weaken the resistance?
C) Send in an NPC with levels in a character class, and would you advise me a
C1) sorcerer?
C2) cleric?

Any other suggestions are welcome, too!

Tempest Fennac
2008-07-07, 08:05 AM
What classes are the 2 PCs? Sending an NPC along could help, and another solution is to use less powerful monsters. Having tougher enermies while having less of them could help as well (swarms of weak enermies could be more dangerous to a small party).

DigoDragon
2008-07-07, 08:05 AM
Usually I weaken the resistance a little if I have only 2-3 players instead of the usual sized group. The challenge ratings aren't hard set so you just have to get a feel for how far back it needs to be scaled.

xPANCAKEx
2008-07-07, 08:52 AM
theres a pretty decent "ecounter calculator" over at d20srd.org - user that to work out the effective party level, then go from there. But don't dumb it dowb - let the players have their fun. If you make it easier just so one can survive the day, then the rest suffer through lack of a challenge. If he enjoys throwing himself at charging bears, then let him do it - he got what he wanted from the PC

if he wants to stay alive to claim the glory, then let him learn his lesson and take things a little more cautiously

DemonSlayer
2008-07-07, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the replies so far :smallsmile:!


What classes are the 2 PCs?

One of them is a dwarf barbarian, the other is a gnome rogue. The third one, I don't know yet; he missed the first session so he doesn't even have a character yet. Players are all level 1, but I've planned things ahead up till well into level 4.


If you make it easier just so one can survive the day, then the rest suffer through lack of a challenge.

Well, that's not really a problem :smallsmile:. If it was just one player being dumb, I'd simply let him get killed and rezzed again a few times until he adopts a more viable strategy.


theres a pretty decent "ecounter calculator" over at d20srd.org - user that to work out the effective party level, then go from there.

I use that one, actually, and it's been a great help so far :smallsmile:.

Right now I'm using single, decent CR monsters- one rat swarm (CR2) at a time, for example. The problem is, what happens at higher levels? I've got a nice fight with a snowflake ooze(CR4) set up for them once they're level 4, but if there's only three or even two players, can they really survive it?

Weakening the resistance is indeed probably the best bet right now, but since I've planned a lot of "one encounter one monster" encounters, would this mean I need to find weaker monsters? Or would a reduction in damage/hit die suffice?

Again, thanks a lot for your help. I'll also try to figure out what character the third player will be using.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-07-07, 04:17 PM
Right now I'm using single, decent CR monsters- one rat swarm (CR2) at a time, for example. The problem is, what happens at higher levels? I've got a nice fight with a snowflake ooze(CR4) set up for them once they're level 4, but if there's only three or even two players, can they really survive it?


Generally an equal CR encounter will cost a part 25% of it's resources(including HP and spells), so even if there are less PC's around they will survive, but it'll cost them a lot more of their resources.
The real problem is though that CR is more of a guideline, because there often are great differences in monster of the same CR and of course great differences in party strength.

Chronos
2008-07-07, 04:38 PM
The rule of thumb is that when you halve the party size, you should decrease CRs by 2, and when you double party size, you should increase them by 2. There are exceptions, though: Some monsters, for instance, have the CRs they do because you need access to a particular spell or item to defeat them, and you won't have that spell or item before that level. Before you throw anything at your party, always ask yourself "How could they defeat this?". For the standard, four-a-day, equal-CR encounters, the party should almost always win using just basic, unimaginative tactics. For more significant foes, creativity should be required, but unless you know that your players are a lot more inventive than you, you should still know of at least some means by which they could pull it off (which will not necessarily be the method they use, of course).

All that said, the simplest solution to your problem would be to allow each player to control two characters. That might be a bit of a burden for them, though. If you do decide to add an NPC, sorcerer might not be a bad choice, since you could add some magical support to the party balance, while still having a low enough Int to justify not coming up with any clever plans. If the third player doesn't have any healing capability, you'll probably also want to arrange for the players to get a wand of Cure Light Wounds for the rogue to use.

nargbop
2008-07-07, 05:32 PM
Give everyone an extra 10 hit points, just because.

RTGoodman
2008-07-07, 05:43 PM
Generally an equal CR encounter will cost a part 25% of it's resources(including HP and spells), so even if there are less PC's around they will survive, but it'll cost them a lot more of their resources.
The real problem is though that CR is more of a guideline, because there often are great differences in monster of the same CR and of course great differences in party strength.

Also note that the CR system is designed so that standard parties can and should face encounters with an Encounter Level up to Average Party Level + 4 and still come out on top. If you've got fewer PCs, just don't throw encounters at them more than 1 or 2 higher than Party Level and you should be fine. Really, my personal method would be to throw slightly fewer monsters at them and maybe fudge some rolls if things are still going bad. Note that you shouldn't do that if it's completely their fault for screwing things up - bad decisions should still hurt them, but bad rolls or too-tough monsters shouldn't be as bad.

Regarding throwing in an NPC, it could work, but a lot of times it can turn out badly if a (usually-inexperienced) DM makes the NPC his own personal Mary Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue). If you think you can avoid that, though, you should be fine.

Frosty
2008-07-07, 06:25 PM
I've made extensive use of DMPCs n my current campaign because most of the time not everysingle player can make it and then I'm stuck with only 3 PCs and sometimes even 2. Just be sure that the DMPCs fill a more supporting role. Don't have flashy damage dealers or schrodinger "win button" wizards. Make the DMPCs have limitations of their own, even if they are brilliant in their own field.

DemonSlayer
2008-07-09, 08:47 AM
so even if there are less PC's around they will survive, but it'll cost them a lot more of their resources.

Sooo... Some way of replenishing their resources faster could work, too? Definately have to look into that one.


All that said, the simplest solution to your problem would be to allow each player to control two characters. That might be a bit of a burden for them, though. If you do decide to add an NPC, sorcerer might not be a bad choice, since you could add some magical support to the party balance, while still having a low enough Int to justify not coming up with any clever plans. If the third player doesn't have any healing capability, you'll probably also want to arrange for the players to get a wand of Cure Light Wounds for the rogue to use.

Two characters for each player isn't gonna happen. I'm trying to keep an emphasis on RP here, and I feel having to RP two characters would just be too much work.

I think that I'm going with an extra NPC for now, at least until I'm certain what character the third player will be playing. I'm leaning towards cloistered cleric right now (for healing purposes (the rogue doesn't even have ranks in UMD, I think), plus it's a real "background" class, which fits the supporting role just fine.). He won't be very powerful, but can throw around some healing and knowledge (which is basically what the party needs).

bigbaddragon
2008-07-09, 10:40 AM
Try not to play to their weakest sides in the beginning (will saves for example) and do not send low CR monsters that have nasty abilities like Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) and Vargouilles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vargouille.htm) and similar monsters.

Roderick_BR
2008-07-09, 12:27 PM
If you need to use an NPC, I suggest a caster, just so he can boost the PCs. A bard is great for the job, or the npc class Adept. He just falls back and enhances the group, casts healings, the likes. It gives the players a bit more power to survive encounters (healings, bonus to rolls, protection spells, etc.), whithout having to DMPC it.
Other option is to go gestalt: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

bosssmiley
2008-07-09, 01:53 PM
Suggest you rebalance the encounters so they are at an ECL of 2 less than originally planned. This will lower the likelihood of TPKs be reducing the typical planned encounter from 'very difficult' back to 'challenging' (where it should be).

It goes back to one of the encounters and experience charts in the DMG. In essence: double the opposition = +2 ECL; half the opposition = -2 ECL.

Alternatively, you could warn the 2 players that they'll have to fight smart rather than fighting hard as the average standard encounter is about two ECLs above what it should be for a half-strength party. *If* the characters survive the trial-by-fire on offer they'll level up like rockets.

The d20SRD.org Encounter Calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) is your friend. :smallwink:

Chronos
2008-07-09, 11:33 PM
He won't be very powerful, but can throw around some healing and knowledge (which is basically what the party needs).I would specifically recommend that the NPC not be particularly knowledgeable. It's too easy for the players to slip into the trap of "What should we do in this situation? Let's ask Bob the Cleric, since he knows everything.". Which, of course, he does, since he's got the DM behind him. It makes blatant railroading too likely.

Draz74
2008-07-10, 01:01 AM
This actually sounds like a situation that Gestalt rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) might help ...

mikeejimbo
2008-07-10, 01:07 AM
If you need to use an NPC, I suggest a caster, just so he can boost the PCs. A bard is great for the job, or the npc class Adept. He just falls back and enhances the group, casts healings, the likes. It gives the players a bit more power to survive encounters (healings, bonus to rolls, protection spells, etc.), whithout having to DMPC it.
Other option is to go gestalt: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

I like the idea of using an Adept, because if I remember correctly, you can choose their spells to be exactly what you need - support.

DemonSlayer
2008-07-10, 06:51 AM
Again, thanks for all the replies :smallsmile:!

Unfortunately I still don't know whether we have two or three players, and I still don't know what that third player would be playing. This really makes it difficult to decide what solution to use.

If the third player joins, I'll go with the DMPC (either an adept or the cloistered cleric).

If he doesn't, then I'll probably have to change a few things. Not too many, though; I'm pretty sure even two players can survive the low-level encounters, which gives me some time to test their ability to survive. This in turn will let me plan their future encounters.

Gestalt would be a good option, but I'm pretty sure my players wouldn't like all the extra rules etc.